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But you have to include at least one choice of units for each Black Heart vehicle, and that in the same detachment, right ? So if you want to keep your Obsessions, you have to have 1 Black Heart unit for each Black Heart transport you pick. Your list works because of the Ravagers but not everyone owns 5 Ravagers.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

AnFéasógMór wrote:
I do think the Kabal of the Black Heart obsession is pretty suck , like "hey, here's a bunch of bonuses you don't want for the models least likely to use them" (I mean, 6+ FNP vehicles ain't the worst thing, but still), but I also think that was intentional because Labrynthine Cunning is easily the best Kabal wl trait, especially if you're combining it with Diabolical Soothsauer, and Agents of Vect used at the right moment could be potentially game changing. Like, obviously I'd love it if we could have Poison Tongue's splinter reroll or Flayed Skull's +6", AoV, and LC all together, but I'd also love to poop gold ingots and pristine 40k models. Can't have everything.

I think its good, for a few reasons

1) Your vehicles get a 6+++, this is very strong when you have 9+ vehicles, if your 7 of your vehicles are Raiders/Ravagers in your Spearhead detachment (See below), that is 76 wounds.
1/6 of 76 dice rolls are 12.6, that is literally a full vehicle left alive or multi-vehicles no taking damage over a few turns.
2) You can take Black Heart vehicles for your other units (See below) to give all your shooting units transports a 6+++
3) Agents of Vect and WL trait to get more CP's
4) Relic for BH to gain re-rolls for all your Vehicles

Spoiler:

Spearhead Black Heart +1CP 1122ptspts
Archon Venom Blade - Relic Re-roll 1's for wounds
Ravager DC
Ravager DC
Ravager DC
Ravager DC
Ravager DC
Raider DL
Raider DL
Raider DL
Raider DL
Raider DL

Obsidian rose Battalion 554pts
Archon Venom Blade, Blaster
Archon Venom Blade,Blaster
Warriors x10, 2 Blasters
Warriors x10, 2 Blasters
Warriors x10, 2 Blasters
Warriors x5, 1 Blaster
Warriors x5, 1 Blaster

If you see what i mean in the list, you can have 5 Ravagers and 5 Raiders with 6+++ and Re-roll 1's to Hit and wound and not counting the Warriors. And you still have over 300pts to add more.

I don't disagree with any of that, it's more just the point that Black Heart really only conveys a bonus to the Vehicles. It's not a bad bonus at all, though. And yeah, that was also one of my first thoughts, like "hey, I can put my wracks and wyches in BH raiders"

Also, my one comment on that list is that with 300 points left, it seems like it might be better to take one more HQ and break that battalion down into three Patrols, end up with one more CP.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Aaranis wrote:
But you have to include at least one choice of units for each Black Heart vehicle, and that in the same detachment, right ? So if you want to keep your Obsessions, you have to have 1 Black Heart unit for each Black Heart transport you pick. Your list works because of the Ravagers but not everyone owns 5 Ravagers.

True, but if you do, it's hilarious, because one of my favorite things about 8th is that they still haven't FAQed the fact that you can take a transport for your vehicles.

But it does convey bonus, 2, re-roll wounds of 1 and a 6+ FnP. It also unlocks a good WL trait and Stratagem.

And no, 3 Patrols is actually less CP

Battleforge +3, 3 Patrols +4 = 7CP
Battleforge +3, SH +1, Battalion +3 Option Detachment (Spear/Out/Vang) +1 = 8CP

I was playing an Outrider of Reavers, 57x3 + 54 Succubus is 225 pointsthat still leaves 100pts, i would get a vehicle, and a wych unit or a unit of Scourges etc... Can do Vanguard with Archon and 3 Mandrakes for 312pts.

I am not gonne play tide of wracks, the models I have is in other things. But somebody can probably try it out and be fine with it. If some one tryes, please report back.

I also like the +6 range kabal. The 36" ranged weapons become 42". The opponents long ranged weapons are often 48" but less mobile then our dark eldar boats. Use your 42" range and superior mobilaty to take out their weapons on one side, they try to scrable to get their weapons into position. Loose some boats, reposition and do it again. Eventually you will come out on top.

There are some holes in the plan. The imperial guard range 72" battlecannon comes to mind. But I think that can give black heart a runn for their money in the right composition.

Getting an extra hit on 6 on poison is not that impressive. Likevice the 3+ in movement is not that cool. Probably best suitet if you some how do melee kabal (although that sounds like a terrible idea.)

If anybody have som idea on the different wytches I would like it. Personally I like the charge after advancing, but I can be biased after playing genestealers.

I only play Reavers for Wych so its always Strife.

I am however wanting to try Coven again, i played a lot of it in 7th, I have 20 Grots, 30 Wracks, many Talos/Cronos

I think i will do a Brigade, Urien, 2 Haemi, 30 Wracks, 12 Grots, 5 Talos with HWB 1 Cronos, 3 Scourges with IDk (just need the FA) all walking

The +6 range doesn't add that much to ravagers true, but if you want multiple units of kabalites in venoms with a blaster in each squad is a nice bonus. Blaster archons will benefit from the obsession as well.

I actually think the +6 ads very much to the ravagers. If you have superior firepower you can just dance on the edge on of your weapon range, and a long as you destroy everything that can threaten them back there are a lot of army lists you can just dance about keeping yourself out of range of his long ranged guns.

As mentioned early imperial guard 72" battle cannon and some other weapons do present a problem. But superb range combined with superior firepor can mean you can out possition your opponent out of the game.

If your opponent deploys all his 48" lascannons and rocket launchers in a group as a form of buddy system, just stay away from them and shoot everything else the first 2 turns before you move in to the hornets nest.

So to use the black heart strategem to deny opponents Strat - you don't need a full detachment of black heart - just one unit of black heart. Correct? So if you were running a ynarri list as lon gas one unit had the trait (assuming you had a full drukahari detch in you list - maybe some other wytch etc.) you could still use the strat?

So i'm having a weird time wrapping my head around making an actually useful second HQ for a Kabal force. With how cheap Kabalites are, 4+ squads of them are definitely on the cards but either through patrols or battalions that means a second HQ choice. With your first Archon being your natural warlord, that will eat up your trait and relic and come out rather effective, but a second Archon ends up feeling very limited and without any purpose for the points it costs.

My mind is now leaning towards throwing obsessions out the window and taking a Prophet of Flesh Haemonculus under Alliance of Agony as the second HQ instead, since while obsessions are good, the restrictions they seem to place on list building are starting to cheese me off. That said, if someone has come up with a good use for a second Archon i'm all ears.

As an aside and related question, the re-roll from the Prophets of Flesh warlord trait states that it is once per battle "for your warlord".... since multiple units can have Warlord traits, does that mean it can be used on anyone with a trait? Just for the Archon? Or just for the Haemonculus who has the warlord trait? It's a bit unclear but I suspect it's just for your actual Armies warlord.

orkswubwub wrote:
So to use the black heart strategem to deny opponents Strat - you don't need a full detachment of black heart - just one unit of black heart. Correct? So if you were running a ynarri list as lon gas one unit had the trait (assuming you had a full drukahari detch in you list - maybe some other wytch etc.) you could still use the strat?

You don't appear to need any Black Heart units for it. You are allowed to "spend Command Points to activate" the stratagem by virtue of having a detachment that includes only Drukhari units, and the stratagem itself doesn't say anything about needing a Black Heart unit.

Dionysodorus wrote:

orkswubwub wrote:
So to use the black heart strategem to deny opponents Strat - you don't need a full detachment of black heart - just one unit of black heart. Correct? So if you were running a ynarri list as lon gas one unit had the trait (assuming you had a full drukahari detch in you list - maybe some other wytch etc.) you could still use the strat?

You don't appear to need any Black Heart units for it. You are allowed to "spend Command Points to activate" the stratagem by virtue of having a detachment that includes only Drukhari units, and the stratagem itself doesn't say anything about needing a Black Heart unit.

It's a Kabal of the Black Heart stratagem, meaning you need a Kabal of the Black Heart detachment to use it, meaning you have to build a detachment with Kabal of the Black Heart units in it.

Lithanial wrote:
So i'm having a weird time wrapping my head around making an actually useful second HQ for a Kabal force. With how cheap Kabalites are, 4+ squads of them are definitely on the cards but either through patrols or battalions that means a second HQ choice. With your first Archon being your natural warlord, that will eat up your trait and relic and come out rather effective, but a second Archon ends up feeling very limited and without any purpose for the points it costs.

Yeah, it's a bit depressing that our HQs really seem to need artefacts and Warlord Traits to be effective.

Lithanial wrote:

My mind is now leaning towards throwing obsessions out the window and taking a Prophet of Flesh Haemonculus under Alliance of Agony as the second HQ instead, since while obsessions are good, the restrictions they seem to place on list building are starting to cheese me off.

This seems like a bad idea, honestly. The Haemonculus won't be able to buff anything in your army, so you'll just end up with a different mediocre HQ choice, except you'll now be trading an army-wide buff for it.

Lithanial wrote:
That said, if someone has come up with a good use for a second Archon i'm all ears.

Well, you could make a suicide-squad using second Archon and either 4 Medusae or 4 Lhamaeans. If the former disembark with the Archon, they should average 14 S4 AP-2 hits. The latter should average 7 hits and 3-4 Mortal Wounds (in addition to any other damage).

Lithanial wrote:

As an aside and related question, the re-roll from the Prophets of Flesh warlord trait states that it is once per battle "for your warlord".... since multiple units can have Warlord traits, does that mean it can be used on anyone with a trait? Just for the Archon? Or just for the Haemonculus who has the warlord trait? It's a bit unclear but I suspect it's just for your actual Armies warlord.

I *think* the Haemonculus or your Archon could use it, but not any other pseudo-Warlords you might have.

Expect some faq if it makes no sence or if it is ambigiud and to good to be true.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
I only play Reavers for Wych so its always Strife.

Why Strife and not Red Grief?

AnFéasógMór wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
I only play Reavers for Wych so its always Strife.

Why Strife and not Red Grief?

Im sorry, i meant Grief, i just got it mixed up

The specific cult Strife stratagem that allows to fight twice if the wych unit destroys something looks very cool. Even without the full blob, just 10 wyches that were in a raider (or a blob of 20 that took a few casualties) have 51 attacks with Adrenalight plus a few other ones depending on which special weapon you give them. Hitting on 2s in turn 3 and after, re-rolling 1s if there's a succubus nearby. Declare a multicharge, destroy one unit, and then unleash once again all the attacks towards something else. It costs 3 CPs but I'm looking forward to try it.

 Blackie wrote:
The specific cult Strife stratagem that allows to fight twice if the wych unit destroys something looks very cool. Even without the full blob, just 10 wyches that were in a raider (or a blob of 20 that took a few casualties) have 51 attacks with Adrenalight plus a few other ones depending on which special weapon you give them. Hitting on 2s in turn 3 and after, re-rolling 1s if there's a succubus nearby. Declare a multicharge, destroy one unit, and then unleash once again all the attacks towards something else. It costs 3 CPs but I'm looking forward to try it.

3CP yes, but just based on some quick mental math, say at 2000 pts, you and your opponent both average 8 CP, you run Diabolical Soothsayer on a Haemi for an average of two CP extra. So, 18 CP between your opponent and you, earning a CP on 6+ with Labyrinthine Cunning, so on average earning 3-4 extra CP per game (when you include CPs potentially earned on the CPs earned from the originals). You'd be averaging something like 14 CP to spend per game, which makes 3 CP seem a lot less onerous.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

AnFéasógMór wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
I only play Reavers for Wych so its always Strife.

Why Strife and not Red Grief?

Im sorry, i meant Grief, i just got it mixed up

Ah, okay. Just wanted to make sure there wasn't a good Strife biker strategy I hadn't seen. Not that +1 attack bikers would be terrible in any respect.

 vipoid wrote:

Lithanial wrote:

Lithanial wrote:
My mind is now leaning towards throwing obsessions out the window and taking a Prophet of Flesh Haemonculus under Alliance of Agony as the second HQ instead, since while obsessions are good, the restrictions they seem to place on list building are starting to cheese me off.

This seems like a bad idea, honestly. The Haemonculus won't be able to buff anything in your army, so you'll just end up with a different mediocre HQ choice, except you'll now be trading an army-wide buff for it.

For the full picture, if you splash a Haemonculus or Succubus in the battalion, rather than taking another Archon, you would 100% take more than just that; especially when you avoid a further tax by not being hit with the compulsory inclusion of a Wych/Wrack unit. You could instead just jump straight to including Reavers/Grotesques/Talos etc so you would have much greater flexibility in the design of your army.

It does of course require giving up your obsessions. But if you are having to spend 70+ points on an Archon that you don't need and then 40+ points on a troop unit you may not want, there is a case to say that having the right army comp is better than the small bonuses obsessions give. Especially if you then have to go about investing even more points into those compulsory units that you may not want, just to make them semi-useful.

I'm sure there is a break-off point in army size where the obsessions are unquestionably worth it (Probably around about the point a second Archon bubble would be useful). However the smaller the size of your Drukhari force, the less benefit it gives and the steeper swallowing that unit tax will feel.

You're basically never going to want to bring any non-HQ Cult or Coven units without an Obsession. Coven units get upgraded to a 4++, which is a 33% improvement in durability vs everything other than mortal wounds. Cult units get something like a 33% to 50% offense buff or else the ability to advance and charge. A Haemonculus to fill an HQ slot is fine, since he doesn't benefit much anyway, but unless these factions' main units are ridiculously overpowered with Obsessions they're going to be pretty bad without them.

Dionysodorus wrote:

orkswubwub wrote:
So to use the black heart strategem to deny opponents Strat - you don't need a full detachment of black heart - just one unit of black heart. Correct? So if you were running a ynarri list as lon gas one unit had the trait (assuming you had a full drukahari detch in you list - maybe some other wytch etc.) you could still use the strat?

You don't appear to need any Black Heart units for it. You are allowed to "spend Command Points to activate" the stratagem by virtue of having a detachment that includes only Drukhari units, and the stratagem itself doesn't say anything about needing a Black Heart unit.

Thanks for the clarification! Good to know - agree I don't find anything in the rules that disagrees with this.

Lithanial wrote:

For the full picture, if you splash a Haemonculus or Succubus in the battalion, rather than taking another Archon, you would 100% take more than just that; especially when you avoid a further tax by not being hit with the compulsory inclusion of a Wych/Wrack unit. You could instead just jump straight to including Reavers/Grotesques/Talos etc so you would have much greater flexibility in the design of your army.

I get that, but you're basically getting gimped versions of those units. Prophets of Flesh Grotesques have a 4++ save, whilst yours only have a 5++ save. Flayed Skull Warriors and their Venoms reroll 1s to hit with their Splinter Rifles and Splinter Cannons and ignore cover with them. And their Venoms have +3" movement. Yours get none of those. Red Grief Reavers can charge on turn 1. Yours can't.

Lithanial wrote:

I'm sure there is a break-off point in army size where the obsessions are unquestionably worth it (Probably around about the point a second Archon bubble would be useful). However the smaller the size of your Drukhari force, the less benefit it gives and the steeper swallowing that unit tax will feel.

To be quite honest, I think you're better off with Obsessions even at low points (though you could consider using a Vanguard or Outrider to have just 1 HQ in a very low point game).

Firstly because if you're using a Battalion then you're forced to take a second HQ anyway, so you're really not saving on points. Second because either you won't be able to afford much in the way of units for the second HQ to buff (hence, you might as well have just taken the surplus Archon) or else you can afford plenty of units (in which case the lack of Obsessions will be felt far more than the HQ tax).

Believe me, I don't like the HQ tax any more than you do. But it seems you're losing more than you're gaining by trying to beat it.

 Aaranis wrote:

Dionysodorus wrote:

orkswubwub wrote:
So to use the black heart strategem to deny opponents Strat - you don't need a full detachment of black heart - just one unit of black heart. Correct? So if you were running a ynarri list as lon gas one unit had the trait (assuming you had a full drukahari detch in you list - maybe some other wytch etc.) you could still use the strat?

You don't appear to need any Black Heart units for it. You are allowed to "spend Command Points to activate" the stratagem by virtue of having a detachment that includes only Drukhari units, and the stratagem itself doesn't say anything about needing a Black Heart unit.

It's a Kabal of the Black Heart stratagem, meaning you need a Kabal of the Black Heart detachment to use it, meaning you have to build a detachment with Kabal of the Black Heart units in it.

what page of the codex says that?

Do you need one black heart unit or an entire detachment?

There are similar situations in other armies. For example, some competitive players field one detachment of 100% alaitoc units, then a ynnari detachment with a single ulthwe guardian unit. They can use ulthwe's Discipline of the Black Guardians stratagem despite not having a 100% ulthwe detachment.

 vipoid wrote:
Believe me, I don't like the HQ tax any more than you do. But it seems you're losing more than you're gaining by trying to beat it.

I do have to say, if there's one big disappointment this codex has, it's the complete lack of viable HQ options. They really should have designed each sub-faction with at least two viable and distinct options that aren't named characters. Ones that aren't just a tax, either. For all the good stuff going on everywhere else, they kind of just forgot that entire section.

What are good deep strike deniers? I do not hve the codex yet.

Is it the 5 man warrior squad, the 10 man dark lance squad or some form of beast?

 axisofentropy wrote:

 Aaranis wrote:

Dionysodorus wrote:

orkswubwub wrote:
So to use the black heart strategem to deny opponents Strat - you don't need a full detachment of black heart - just one unit of black heart. Correct? So if you were running a ynarri list as lon gas one unit had the trait (assuming you had a full drukahari detch in you list - maybe some other wytch etc.) you could still use the strat?

You don't appear to need any Black Heart units for it. You are allowed to "spend Command Points to activate" the stratagem by virtue of having a detachment that includes only Drukhari units, and the stratagem itself doesn't say anything about needing a Black Heart unit.

It's a Kabal of the Black Heart stratagem, meaning you need a Kabal of the Black Heart detachment to use it, meaning you have to build a detachment with Kabal of the Black Heart units in it.

what page of the codex says that?

Do you need one black heart unit or an entire detachment?

There are similar situations in other armies. For example, some competitive players field one detachment of 100% alaitoc units, then a ynnari detachment with a single ulthwe guardian unit. They can use ulthwe's Discipline of the Black Guardians stratagem despite not having a 100% ulthwe detachment.

Yes they use this because they have at least one Ulthwé unit. The example above says "you don't appear to need ANY Black Heart units for it" which is false, you need at least one Black Heart unit. Because it's a Black Heart stratagem.

 Fafnir wrote:
I do have to say, if there's one big disappointment this codex has, it's the complete lack of viable HQ options. They really should have designed each sub-faction with at least two viable and distinct options that aren't named characters. Ones that aren't just a tax, either. For all the good stuff going on everywhere else, they kind of just forgot that entire section.

I absolutely agree. To be honest, I'd argue that our HQs still number amongst the worst in the game. Yes, they can be good with artefacts and warlord traits. But with the number of HQs you need to include just for the army to function, expecting them all to have artefacts and warlord traits is unreasonable and frequently impossible.

Don't get me wrong - I think we have some really great artefacts and warlord traits. But I don't HQs that are completely reliant on them to be worth their cost.

Without wishing to retread old ground, I think mobility really is a problem. And it is compounded with another problem, which is that there are so few models our HQs actually support. If anything, our book is a shining example of anti-synergy.
- Drazhar can't work with anything that isn't Incubi (which might not be so bad if he wasn't 1/6th of our HQs and also the only HQ we have that can be taken in any subfaction. A more universal HQ would have been more appreciated, I think.)
- Archons can't work with anything except Kabal. So no buffing Incubi, Mandrakes, Scourges, Grotesques, Wracks, Beasts or such.
- Also, whilst Archons can buff the Court, the Court's own ability makes the Archon's aura completely redundant.
- Haemonculi can't buff anything that isn't Cult. So no having durable Kabalite Warriors, Wyches, Beasts or such.
- Succubi can't buff Incubi, Wracks, or even Beasts.

So our HQs are already pretty limited in what they can buff. But then you get back to the problem of mobility:
- Succubi can buff Reavers and Hellions . . . except they're not fast enough to keep pace with them.
- Archons can buff Kabalites, but not when they're embarked on a transport together.
- The Court of the Archon can benefit from a nearby Archon . . . unless they're embarked on the same transport.
Why do DE transports appear to inhibit their abilities? I thought they were supposed to excel in fighting from atop them.

Put simply, there are just so few units that our HQs can actually buff in any meaningful way. The Haemonculus is probably the best off, but even then you basically have to eschew any transports and be content to just waddle across the field.

It seems like aura abilities - especially for the Archon and Court - really weren't the best idea. Not when they refused to allow any exceptions for open-topped transports.


Also, it seems we're in dire need of some demi-HQs. Could we not have had the option of a ~40pt Dracon instead of the Archon? Or a ~40pt Haemonculus (with the 70pt one being upgraded to Ancient Haemonculus)?


It's a real shame because I like a lot of things in this book, but IMO the HQ section really lets it down.

Niiai wrote:What are good deep strike deniers? I do not hve the codex yet.

Is it the 5 man warrior squad, the 10 man dark lance squad or some form of beast?

Warriors are even cheaper now, just use them (Black heart) might be best for this only b.c they can re-roll advances right away if you need to run them and no one DS's against you or far away

Fafnir wrote:I do have to say, if there's one big disappointment this codex has, it's the complete lack of viable HQ options. They really should have designed each sub-faction with at least two viable and distinct options that aren't named characters. Ones that aren't just a tax, either. For all the good stuff going on everywhere else, they kind of just forgot that entire section.

Yeah, i think everyone is in an agreement that the DE HQ's are the worst, especially since we only have 1 Archon HQ, and 2 of each of the others, then you have 1 General

I don't really see the sob story for DE HQs.

They are cheap compared to a lot of other factions. Sure it might be nice to shave off another 20 points - but does it really matter?

 vipoid wrote:

So our HQs are already pretty limited in what they can buff. But then you get back to the problem of mobility:
- Succubi can buff Reavers and Hellions . . . except they're not fast enough to keep pace with them.
- Archons can buff Kabalites, but not when they're embarked on a transport together.
- The Court of the Archon can benefit from a nearby Archon . . . unless they're embarked on the same transport.
Why do DE transports appear to inhibit their abilities? I thought they were supposed to excel in fighting from atop them.

I don't necessarily agree with all of the things you list, but these three I'm with you 100% Like, Succubi should be able to take a skyboard or bike, just like most other factions HQs have non-"vehicle" vehicle options (I mean, a lot of them were Hellions and Reavers before they were wyches), or else have some sort of rule that lets them tag along with those units, matching the fluff of them leaping from skyboard to bike to ground and back, or at the very least, have and Arena Champion or Helliarch HQ that can provide bonuses to those units. And it would have been so simple to give Drukhari vehicles a rule that let auras work with them (and also, to give at least Venoms a 6 man capacity, like the nearly identical Starweaver, if not give Raiders an 11 or 12 man capacity)