US Politics

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**ZebioLizard2**

NinthMusketeer wrote:
[Guess they're screwed then. Because all of those things you shot down can all potentially work, trying to bring back obselete jobs certainly won't. Which raises the question of if people like you even want things to work out or would rather make excuses for people mooching off welfare.

"People like you" The insulting and condescending tone is not really needed at all. Also "Mooching off welfare" comes back to my thoughts on people looking down on such people and you've managed to prove my point on that account while ignoring everything else I've said on the matter.

I want things to work! Why would I want people to suffer in area's that are increasingly becoming problems for the people to live in it. To think that I'm making excuses for people while pointing out the issues with such programs because nobody really seems to give a damn about the people that live in them.

**NinthMusketeer**

In other news, not strictly US politics but I found this article on the gender wage gap interesting (it's NYT but non-politically written so reasonably reliable). Of particular note is the similarity between US and Scandinavian countries despite very different policies.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets/the-10-year-baby-window-that-is-the-key-to-the-womens-pay-gap/ar-AAvF4O6?li=BBnbfcN

From my perspective it raises the long term concern of simply de-motivation to have kids at all. We already know that couples with kids are less happy on average, and with information like the above coming available in addition to the already significant financial burden I wonder if people will more frequently ignore instinct and avoid kids entirely. But then with automation being what it is maybe that isn't a bad trend at all.

**Frazzled**

feeder wrote:
I've been lucky enough that I've never been unemployed throughout my adult life. I'd like to think though, if I was, that I'd not vote for a comforting lie over a hard reality.

You would be wrong. Your vision changes when you can't feed you kids.

**BlaxicanX**

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

When I've seen the democrats speak of these area's it's always in that same elitist tone with that same constant insult of being nothing of worth except to fly over to the more "progressive and better cities".

Can you provide a single quote from a democrat that echoes this "elitist tone"?

**NinthMusketeer**

ZebioLizard2 wrote:
NinthMusketeer wrote:
[Guess they're screwed then. Because all of those things you shot down can all potentially work, trying to bring back obselete jobs certainly won't. Which raises the question of if people like you even want things to work out or would rather make excuses for people mooching off welfare.
"People like you" The insulting and condescending tone is not really needed at all. Also "Mooching off welfare" comes back to my thoughts on people looking down on such people and you've managed to prove my point on that account while ignoring everything else I've said on the matter.

I want things to work! Why would I want people to suffer in area's that are increasingly becoming problems for the people to live in it. To think that I'm making excuses for people while pointing out the issues with such programs because nobody really seems to give a damn about the people that live in them.

It's more that you complained about a situation, people offered solutions, and you shot them down. It reads as a simple refusal to help oneself so you can see why that generates a negative attitude. Doubly so when these are the same people bemoaning how lazy my generation (millenials) is. So yeah, I do resent the attitude you are expressing. 'Treat others the way you want to be treated' cuts both ways; I am returning the lack of sympathy that these people are demonstrating they want to be treated with.

That said you are right I shouldn't have said 'people like you' and phrased it as 'people with your opinion' instead.

**Frazzled**

Cling to their Bibles and their guns? Just a whole bunch of deplorables?

**NinthMusketeer**

BlaxicanX wrote:
ZebioLizard2 wrote:

When I've seen the democrats speak of these area's it's always in that same elitist tone with that same constant insult of being nothing of worth except to fly over to the more "progressive and better cities".
Can you provide a single quote from a democrat that echoes this "elitist tone"?

Really? I mean such quotes are readily available, many of them from HRC.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Frazzled wrote:
feeder wrote:
I've been lucky enough that I've never been unemployed throughout my adult life. I'd like to think though, if I was, that I'd not vote for a comforting lie over a hard reality.

You would be wrong. Your vision changes when you can't feed you kids.

Your vision changes from supporting something that has worked poorly to something that won't work at all? That's entirely selfish; giving up on trying to help your kids for the comfort of thinking you did.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Frazzled wrote:
Cling to their Bibles and their guns? Just a whole bunch of deplorables?

Nope. Nice try though.

**d-usa**

Words and sentences have context and meaning.

Pretending that deplorables has anything to do with people wanting to keep industry in their town alive is the same as pretending that Republicans want to cut welfare because of rapists and murderers from Mexico.

**BlaxicanX**

Frazzled wrote:
Cling to their Bibles and their guns? Just a whole bunch of deplorables?

I wasn't aware the alt-right only reside in flyover states; how adorable.

**ZebioLizard2**

NinthMusketeer wrote:
ZebioLizard2 wrote:
NinthMusketeer wrote:
[Guess they're screwed then. Because all of those things you shot down can all potentially work, trying to bring back obselete jobs certainly won't. Which raises the question of if people like you even want things to work out or would rather make excuses for people mooching off welfare.
"People like you" The insulting and condescending tone is not really needed at all. Also "Mooching off welfare" comes back to my thoughts on people looking down on such people and you've managed to prove my point on that account while ignoring everything else I've said on the matter.

I want things to work! Why would I want people to suffer in area's that are increasingly becoming problems for the people to live in it. To think that I'm making excuses for people while pointing out the issues with such programs because nobody really seems to give a damn about the people that live in them.
It's more that you complained about a situation, people offered solutions, and you shot them down. It reads as a simple refusal to help oneself so you can see why that generates a negative attitude. Doubly so when these are the same people bemoaning how lazy my generation (millenials) is. So yeah, I do resent the attitude you are expressing. 'Treat others the way you want to be treated' cuts both ways; I am returning the lack of sympathy that these people are demonstrating they want to be treated with.

That said you are right I shouldn't have said 'people like you' and phrased it as 'people with your opinion' instead.

Shot them down? I mentioned how they worked and how they didn't work. You can clearly say "Do this and that for instant success!" but reality tends to have an effect when things are put into actual practice. Bemoaning that I simply "complained" when it seems like you skimmed over what I said as I clearly was discussing what happened with each and why not all of them are directly feasible without full help, and given what you are saying here it sounds more like you are using me as a target for people you clearly dislike rather then actually arguing with me in good faith.

And returning the lack of sympathy to me who has not expressed any such views.. Well, good luck with that then.

**Just Tony**

Nostromodamus wrote:
Ouze wrote:
why coal miners are treated with such reverence, and yet it's socially acceptable to mock fast food workers as losers.

Same kind of cultural reason that we’re supposed to worship a guy who drove an army truck in Germany for 3 years but it’s ok to gak all over educators that are bringing up our kids and actually affecting the future of our country.

Great solution to that, EVERY public sector employee makes $40,000-50,000 a year. No exceptions. Teachers. DMV workers. The President and every member of Congress. All across the board. OR drop all their pay to the level of teachers.

**BobtheInquisitor**

Just Tony wrote:
Nostromodamus wrote:
Ouze wrote:
why coal miners are treated with such reverence, and yet it's socially acceptable to mock fast food workers as losers.

Same kind of cultural reason that we’re supposed to worship a guy who drove an army truck in Germany for 3 years but it’s ok to gak all over educators that are bringing up our kids and actually affecting the future of our country.

Great solution to that, EVERY public sector employee makes $40,000-50,000 a year. No exceptions. Teachers. DMV workers. The President and every member of Congress. All across the board. OR drop all their pay to the level of teachers.

You'd have to adjust the income for areas with a higher cost of living. Also, beyond pay there is enough of a status gap or respect gap between educators and certain other civil servants to affect recruitment and retention rates.

**d-usa**

Just Tony wrote:
Nostromodamus wrote:
Ouze wrote:
why coal miners are treated with such reverence, and yet it's socially acceptable to mock fast food workers as losers.

Same kind of cultural reason that we’re supposed to worship a guy who drove an army truck in Germany for 3 years but it’s ok to gak all over educators that are bringing up our kids and actually affecting the future of our country.

Great solution to that, EVERY public sector employee makes $40,000-50,000 a year. No exceptions. Teachers. DMV workers. The President and every member of Congress. All across the board. OR drop all their pay to the level of teachers.

That idea is so stupid, even Trump wouldn't try to push it through.

**BlaxicanX**

Just Tony wrote:
Nostromodamus wrote:
Ouze wrote:
why coal miners are treated with such reverence, and yet it's socially acceptable to mock fast food workers as losers.

Same kind of cultural reason that we’re supposed to worship a guy who drove an army truck in Germany for 3 years but it’s ok to gak all over educators that are bringing up our kids and actually affecting the future of our country.

Great solution to that, EVERY public sector employee makes $40,000-50,000 a year. No exceptions. Teachers. DMV workers. The President and every member of Congress. All across the board. OR drop all their pay to the level of teachers.

Are you aware that the median salary required to own a home in the San Francisco bay area is $170,000 a year?

**d-usa**

BlaxicanX wrote:
Just Tony wrote:
Nostromodamus wrote:
Ouze wrote:
why coal miners are treated with such reverence, and yet it's socially acceptable to mock fast food workers as losers.

Same kind of cultural reason that we’re supposed to worship a guy who drove an army truck in Germany for 3 years but it’s ok to gak all over educators that are bringing up our kids and actually affecting the future of our country.

Great solution to that, EVERY public sector employee makes $40,000-50,000 a year. No exceptions. Teachers. DMV workers. The President and every member of Congress. All across the board. OR drop all their pay to the level of teachers.
Are you aware that the median salary required to own a home in the San Francisco bay area is $170,000 a year?

Well, clearly the Nuclear Physicist, Cardiac Surgeon, Accountant, and the Janitor can all house together to pool their $40,000-50,000 in order to make rent.

**godardc**

d-usa wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

godardc wrote:
Today in the news, I heard that some French people born in the United States of America have to pay their taxes to the USA, even if they never even worked there. They went in France 50 years ago, and have to pay taxes.
I am curious to know more about that. You have to pay your taxes even abroad ? That seems to be a great idea to avoid tax optimization

Yeah, dual citizens have to pay in both countries. There are exemptions to income amounts and stuff like that, and I don't know the details. My brother lives in Germany and has to file in the US every year and pays $0.

Dual citizens ? What if you, a true American boy, went to France (I guess you only have the US nationality ?) ? Would you pay your taxes to your country, too ?

NinthMusketeer wrote:
Trump is those negative qualities magnified plus being massively incompetent plus being mentally disabled.

Oh man...Can't you get over it ? You lost. You LOST, okay ? I mean, it has been more than a year, get over it. Just, accept it, he is your president for the next 7 years, you can't and won't change it.

**d-usa**

godardc wrote:

Dual citizens ? What if you, a true American boy, went to France (I guess you only have the US nationality ?) ? Would you pay your taxes to your country, too ?

All US citizens are subject to US taxes at all times.

NinthMusketeer wrote:
Trump is those negative qualities magnified plus being massively incompetent plus being mentally disabled.

Oh man...Can't you get over it ? You lost. You LOST, okay ? I mean, it has been more than a year, get over it. Just, accept it, he is your president for the next 7 years, you can't and won't change it.

Someone can be both POTUS for however many years someone ends up being POTUS, and be incompetent at the same time.

**Prestor Jon**

godardc wrote:
d-usa wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

godardc wrote:
Today in the news, I heard that some French people born in the United States of America have to pay their taxes to the USA, even if they never even worked there. They went in France 50 years ago, and have to pay taxes.
I am curious to know more about that. You have to pay your taxes even abroad ? That seems to be a great idea to avoid tax optimization

Yeah, dual citizens have to pay in both countries. There are exemptions to income amounts and stuff like that, and I don't know the details. My brother lives in Germany and has to file in the US every year and pays $0.

Dual citizens ? What if you, a true American boy, went to France (I guess you only have the US nationality ?) ? Would you pay your taxes to your country, too ?

If you are a US citizen and you take a job in a foreign country you still have to file your taxes. When I worked overseas I still filed a return. I didn't have to pay any Federal income tax because my wages didn't exceed the taxation threshold but US citizens are still responsible to file returns even if the work overseas.

**d-usa**

Prestor Jon wrote:

If you are a US citizen and you take a job in a foreign country you still have to file your taxes. When I worked overseas I still filed a return. I didn't have to pay any Federal income tax because my wages didn't exceed the taxation threshold but US citizens are still responsible to file returns even if the work overseas.

And I think that there is sometimes confusion about the issue when people think about double taxation. The US taxes only the income above a certain threshold, and then I think there is the option of using your foreign taxes as a credit against the taxes you owe in the US (so if taxes are higher in the foreign country you can subtract the taxes paid to them from the taxes you owe to the US...I think).

But just like living in the US, even if you end up owing $0 to the IRS you still need to file the tax record to show that you owe $0.

**whembly**

I'm laughing so so much, because it's a freaking trainwreck... Missouri Governor looking more & more like a victim of prosecutorial over reach:
Greitens filing claims ex-lover testified to only seeing phone or camera in 'dream'

...for the non-paywalls:
Hairdresser-mistress who accused disgraced Missouri governor of taking racy photo to blackmail her now admits she might have DREAMED seeing him with a camera phone.

...he wouldn't be "disgraced" anymore...right?

**Prestor Jon**

d-usa wrote:
Prestor Jon wrote:

If you are a US citizen and you take a job in a foreign country you still have to file your taxes. When I worked overseas I still filed a return. I didn't have to pay any Federal income tax because my wages didn't exceed the taxation threshold but US citizens are still responsible to file returns even if the work overseas.

And I think that there is sometimes confusion about the issue when people think about double taxation. The US taxes only the income above a certain threshold, and then I think there is the option of using your foreign taxes as a credit against the taxes you owe in the US (so if taxes are higher in the foreign country you can subtract the taxes paid to them from the taxes you owe to the US...I think).

But just like living in the US, even if you end up owing $0 to the IRS you still need to file the tax record to show that you owe $0.

If you are a US citizen/green card holder/etc. working abroad and you earn more than the filing threshold, $10,400 for single filers, you have to file a return, but the Foreign Earned Income Exclusion is $102,100 so you only have to actually pay taxes on the amount you earn above $102,100. If you earn over the FEIE you still get to take deductions so unless you have a very large income you won't be paying much in US taxes.

**daedalus**

whembly wrote:
I'm laughing so so much, because it's a freaking trainwreck... Missouri Governor looking more & more like a victim of prosecutorial over reach:
Greitens filing claims ex-lover testified to only seeing phone or camera in 'dream'

...for the non-paywalls:
Hairdresser-mistress who accused disgraced Missouri governor of taking racy photo to blackmail her now admits she might have DREAMED seeing him with a camera phone.

...he wouldn't be "disgraced" anymore...right?

I mean, it makes sense. I've been blamed for gak girlfriends have dreamt I've done before.

Granted, none of those things have wound up in front of a jury...

Susan Ryan, a spokeswoman for Circuit Attorney Kim Gardner said the defense is "working hard to try this case in the media by attacking the credibility of the victim and the investigation." Ryan said the defense "cherry-picked bits and pieces" of Friday's deposition and said "there is nothing substantially new about the victim's testimony in the deposition, including the fact that the video camera had malfunctioned."

I swear to, well, somebody else's god, I hate this state.

**skyth**

Prestor Jon wrote:

It's a big improvement for me. $24k is a bigger deduction than we ever got from itemizing and with our kids added in we're getting a $30k deduction next year which will be the largest deduction we've ever had. The bulk of our itemized deductions were always mortgage interest and property taxes but those were never close to $24k.

I believe you misunderstand the tax changes. First off, your kids don't get you any deduction. You only get the $24k. However, you are losing $8.1k of exemptions. So really, it's a hair under $16k now. Basically if you could itemize before and you can't now, you're likely losing deductions. It really wasn't that big of a change ($1,600 in reality) and the amount is going up slower due to inflation than it was before.

Plus you're losing the ability to itemize any form of work related expense. We had to radically restructure what we were doing to avoid being screwed by the new tax law. I do taxes for one of my jobs and the new tax law is a giant middle finger to the middle class. I've explained it that way to several of my clients

**d-usa**

http://okcfox.com/news/fox-25-investigates/state-confiscates-beer-meant-for-teachers

Just small government things...

**Ustrello**

skyth wrote:
Prestor Jon wrote:

It's a big improvement for me. $24k is a bigger deduction than we ever got from itemizing and with our kids added in we're getting a $30k deduction next year which will be the largest deduction we've ever had. The bulk of our itemized deductions were always mortgage interest and property taxes but those were never close to $24k.

I believe you misunderstand the tax changes. First off, your kids don't get you any deduction. You only get the $24k. However, you are losing $8.1k of exemptions. So really, it's a hair under $16k now. Basically if you could itemize before and you can't now, you're likely losing deductions. It really wasn't that big of a change ($1,600 in reality) and the amount is going up slower due to inflation than it was before.

Plus you're losing the ability to itemize any form of work related expense. We had to radically restructure what we were doing to avoid being screwed by the new tax law. I do taxes for one of my jobs and the new tax law is a giant middle finger to the middle class. I've explained it that way to several of my clients

I mean can you name a time in recent memory that the republicans have not given the middle finger to the middle class? With the deregulations of the banks under Wubya to the deregulating of the banks again under Trump to name a few

**BaronIveagh**

Hey, anyone want to talk about the war with Syria that Trump is now mulling over?

**infinite_array**

BaronIveagh wrote:
Hey, anyone want to talk about the war with Syria that Trump is now mulling over?

Sorry, is that the one that the warmonger is advising him on, and is totally being deliberated with complete attention and no distractions from, say, Trump's longtime lawyer's office being raided by the FBI?

**NinthMusketeer**

godardc wrote:
NinthMusketeer wrote:
Trump is those negative qualities magnified plus being massively incompetent plus being mentally disabled.

Oh man...Can't you get over it ? You lost. You LOST, okay ? I mean, it has been more than a year, get over it. Just, accept it, he is your president for the next 7 years, you can't and won't change it.

This is both missing the point and a really bad attempt at trying to deflect my argument. The only reason to deflect like that is because you can't defend your position, so unless you provide one the line of discussion is already over.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:
NinthMusketeer wrote:
ZebioLizard2 wrote:
NinthMusketeer wrote:
[Guess they're screwed then. Because all of those things you shot down can all potentially work, trying to bring back obselete jobs certainly won't. Which raises the question of if people like you even want things to work out or would rather make excuses for people mooching off welfare.
"People like you" The insulting and condescending tone is not really needed at all. Also "Mooching off welfare" comes back to my thoughts on people looking down on such people and you've managed to prove my point on that account while ignoring everything else I've said on the matter.

I want things to work! Why would I want people to suffer in area's that are increasingly becoming problems for the people to live in it. To think that I'm making excuses for people while pointing out the issues with such programs because nobody really seems to give a damn about the people that live in them.
It's more that you complained about a situation, people offered solutions, and you shot them down. It reads as a simple refusal to help oneself so you can see why that generates a negative attitude. Doubly so when these are the same people bemoaning how lazy my generation (millenials) is. So yeah, I do resent the attitude you are expressing. 'Treat others the way you want to be treated' cuts both ways; I am returning the lack of sympathy that these people are demonstrating they want to be treated with.

That said you are right I shouldn't have said 'people like you' and phrased it as 'people with your opinion' instead.
Shot them down? I mentioned how they worked and how they didn't work. You can clearly say "Do this and that for instant success!" but reality tends to have an effect when things are put into actual practice. Bemoaning that I simply "complained" when it seems like you skimmed over what I said as I clearly was discussing what happened with each and why not all of them are directly feasible without full help, and given what you are saying here it sounds more like you are using me as a target for people you clearly dislike rather then actually arguing with me in good faith.

And returning the lack of sympathy to me who has not expressed any such views.. Well, good luck with that then.

You are making a dishonest argument based off misrepresenting the discussion.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Right then! Having lived in one of those towns for a while I can certainly mention the issues with such.

A different job: Many jobs in those sorts of towns tend to end up being service level jobs either working in a gas station, Walmart sort of supercenter or local variety, or a variety of other local area's that are trying to get by either as a craftsman. The issue with the last bit is that in many such towns there's already major competition with those that are already established and many times there's not much point in going further out with it.

Different skill: Same as the first, you can get all you want but most of the time you'll be getting low level jobs regardless of how good a degree and education you may have. If you are lucky you may be able to get an apprenticeship at a local shop for something major but in most cases you'll be out of luck

Moving: You already live in an area where you are struggling to make funds meet.. The issue is now you have to make money and somehow achieve enough to exit out and still have funds to move along with money to buy/rent in another city and have enough that you can potentially find a job in an area before your fund runs out and you end up on the streets.

At it's core many of these towns practically rely on people helping each other because there's really not much else. There's no people coming in and there's no jobs coming in to help refresh the population but you don't tend to have the money to be able to relocate either. So you're stuck in said dead end area just hoping that something will come along. You can say "Get a job elsewhere" but the reality is there's many barriers to achieving such.

**Vulcan**

Frazzled wrote:
d-usa wrote:
And sometimes, jobs just go away and never come back.

Is it the government's job to make sure you always got your union job available to you?

It is if enough voters say it is.

THE EBIL SOCIALIZIM!!!!!!!111!!1!1!1! Let the invisible hand of the free market fix everything! Government interference with business is always wrong!

See how stupid that sounds? It sounds just as dumb when it's said in support of conservative policies too.

**whembly**

BaronIveagh wrote:
Hey, anyone want to talk about the war with Syria that Trump is now mulling over?

Okay... I'll bite.

He needs to get Congressional approval.

Furthermore, it needs clear & concise objectives. None of this nation building crap...