Game turned down because of a single Leviathan

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**Not Online!!!**

Adeptus Doritos wrote:
rhinoceraids wrote:

Thats the only instance of me ever asking somebody to not bring something. Outside of maybe 100's of boys or troops.

This. This is absolutely the worst thing a person can bring to a game. Ever. One person did this to me, and never again.

Green tide. That army went from zero to hero really quickly.
I don't like the fact that guardsmen or ork boyz are that good / cost efficient in 8th.
I don't mind hordes i just mind the fact that those troops literally beat anything in regards to point efectiveness.
Same goes for csm which don't even bother anymore with standard marines and just use cultists.

**Adeptus Doritos**

Not Online!!! wrote:
Green tide. That army went from zero to hero really quickly.
I don't like the fact that guardsmen or ork boyz are that good / cost efficient in 8th.
I don't mind hordes i just mind the fact that those troops literally beat anything in regards to point efectiveness.
Same goes for csm which don't even bother anymore with standard marines and just use cultists.

I wouldn't mind if someone did this, as long as they let me know what they intended to do. This is way more than bringing a Forge World model or something weird, this is a big deal. It's not a 'new unit I don't know', it's an entire evening of waiting for someone to move all of his crap around.

**Not Online!!!**

Guess i am kinda also more hardened in that regard because i ain't leaving the house without atleast 1/10 in points in units, however you can be pretty effective at moving mass troops. That is if you don't intend to inch perfectly to avoid that nasty flamer overwatch before a charge....
The problem is that an inch more or less is way to important sometimes and or people are just beeing particulary excact again.

**Adeptus Doritos**

Not Online!!! wrote:
Guess i am kinda also more hardened in that regard because i ain't leaving the house without atleast 1/10 in points in units, however you can be pretty effective at moving mass troops. That is if you don't intend to inch perfectly to avoid that nasty flamer overwatch before a charge....
The problem is that an inch more or less is way to important sometimes and or people are just beeing particulary excact again.

They make little squad trays to move dudes around with. If someone has those, it's a lot easier. I just... shouldn't be able to walk across the street, wait in line, order a burrito, come back, eat it, and then have the farts by the time the shooting phase begins.

**Not Online!!!**

I avoid that by just ordering a general charge of my troops whilest firing.
Yes i play khorne
No, i do know what tactics are, i just personally adopted the mass charge doctrine.

**Peregrine**

jhnbrg wrote:
The thing is that people almost never field FW units that are "ok at best", its the few broken ones that always get spammed. I can see why people still might refuse to play against FW.

The same is true of codex rules/models, therefore people should refuse to play against them.

If you want to field stuff from FW why not proxy them as ordinary units from the codex?

If you want to field your Tyranids why not proxy them as space marine units from the index? Why do you need to use those special snowflake codex rules?

**Vaktathi**

conker249 wrote:
Adeptus Doritos wrote:
conker249 wrote:
I won't play against FW. It just sucks the fun out of the game for me. For my local Meta, I don't like playing against Khorne Brass Scorpions, Dread Claws, Impalers, Or Dark Eldar Tantulus and Reapers. Baneblades aren't fun either.
I just like regular Codex or regular Index. I lose a lot, which I am fine with, I just get utterly curbstomped or tabled quickly when those are on the field. At that point, I am really only continuing the match for my opponent to have fun, while looking at my watch hoping the match is over so I can drive 1.5 hours home and hope next weeks game goes better

Sounds like you need to worry less about your opponent and more about your own army. What stopped you from getting a FW model?

I have a few FW models that I paint. Primarchs, Deredeo Dreadnought. I like just regular Codex vs Regular Codex, Or regular Index. One rulebook, one codex(or index). Everyone here has a rulebook and a codex or index.The players who play FW, seem to never have their rules on hand, so it is a "trust me, this does this" or it is a screenshot on their phone. Its frustrating that rules cannot be verified (or that I can read to understand) they change, or magically "remember" certain rules later in the game when they benefit them. Again, My views towards FW are Local Meta. If I have a question on a unit for a blood angels player, I can ask to see his codex. If I have a question towards a FW unit, I cannot. It gets old really quick when I charge or shoot a unit, to find out what it does after the act.

If people dont have their rules, thats on them, FW or no. Players should always have their rules. Thats not an FW issue, its a player issue.

That said, the internet is always available, lots of people use it to buy warhammer stuff and FW's rules can be bought, or otherwise acquired, just as easily as any other GW rulebooks.

**kombatwombat**

conker249 wrote:
I won't play against FW. It just sucks the fun out of the game for me. For my local Meta, I don't like playing against Khorne Brass Scorpions, Dread Claws, Impalers, Or Dark Eldar Tantulus and Reapers. Baneblades aren't fun either.
I just like regular Codex or regular Index. I lose a lot, which I am fine with, I just get utterly curbstomped or tabled quickly when those are on the field. At that point, I am really only continuing the match for my opponent to have fun, while looking at my watch hoping the match is over so I can drive 1.5 hours home and hope next weeks game goes better

The problem here is that, intentionally or no, you’re cherry picking. It’s just as easy to say ‘I don’t like playing against Magnus, Mortarion, Guilliman, Shadowswords or Knights. Dark Reapers and Flyrants aren’t fun either. I just like to play against Stygies pattern Vanquishers, Land Raider Achilles and Canoptek Tomb Stalkers.’

It’s cool that you know what you prefer to play with or against and stick with it, but it can’t be claimed to be a rational choice or any more reasonable than ‘I prefer blue models, so I don’t like to or refuse to play against green models.’

**conker249**

Its cherry picking to want to stick with a regular game of 40k with a regular codex without multiple books my opponents don't have?

**JNAProductions**

conker249 wrote:
Its cherry picking to want to stick with a regular game of 40k with a regular codex without multiple books my opponents don't have?

And why can't they "forget" their codex with a GW model?

**kombatwombat**

And by exactly what valid measure are you using to define ‘regular’? What authority is there that aligns with your definition?

Many of my opponent’s only own Xenos armies. Using my Black Templars requires Codex Space Marines and Index Imperium 1. Since that’s

conker249 wrote:
multiple books my opponents don't have

I can’t have a ‘regular’ game with them then?

As we’ve said time and again, it’s cool for you to decide what you’re happy to play against. You do you. But don’t try and pass of ‘no FW’ as a standard game of 8th Edition 40k or a reasonable, objective restriction.

**Peregrine**

conker249 wrote:
Its cherry picking to want to stick with a regular game of 40k with a regular codex without multiple books my opponents don't have?

A regular game of 40k is one where FW rules are legal. What you actually want is your special house-ruled version of 40k that excludes particular units that you don't like.

PS: Baneblades are a unit from the IG codex, so I have no idea why you're using them as an excuse to ban FW rules.

**Scott-S6**

conker249 wrote:
Its cherry picking to want to stick with a regular game of 40k with a regular codex without multiple books my opponents don't have?

Everyone needs to have the rules for their models regardless of GW or FW. This is no different to the guy who insists that there is a FAQ ruling that's highly favorable for his army but doesn't have the FAQ with him or that guy who doesn't bring his codex because he can totally remember all of the rules.

**niv-mizzet**

conker249 wrote:
Its cherry picking to want to stick with a regular game of 40k with a regular codex without multiple books my opponents don't have?

Instead of auto-turning-down all FW units, try auto-turning-down opponents who don't have their rules. It's easy to see from your comments that that is your real problem right there.

**Ice_can**

In this day and age their is no excuse for not having rules, heck I have 2 complete indexes on my phone, plus all the FAQ's and hard copies of my GW codex's.
Also bonus is FW do update the indexes with errata though you have to manually redownload them.

**Formosa**

HMint wrote:
Unit1126PLL wrote:
HMint wrote:
Another major factor is how including FW expands the scope and complexity of the game into something that, to me at least, is a total mess.

I have a pretty good grasp of what each (GW line) army in the game can do, what it's strengths and weaknesses are. Basicly each army has an identity that I am familar with.

Enter FW. Now everyone suddenly everyone seems to get access to everything. And I do not like that.

For example the Chaos I know from GW runs the CSM lineup consisting of antiquated power armor and tanks, with some demon machines and demons accompanying them.
But with FW, they suddenly can field all kinds of modern flyers, tanks and cybots that I would associate with loyal marines.
Worse, they can now field basicly everything that is IG, including their tank lineup and super heavies.

Giving everyone access to everything in some form or another via the FW cataloge is not making the game better.
That's not about how each unit on their own is broken, or not. But throwing them all over the place and putting them in different armies destroys the internal balance and identity of those armies.
Well and then there are those insanly broken units FW puts out from time to time as well, those do not help either.

Edit:
Forum ate half my post...

"Giving everyone access to everything?" What does that even mean?

To me, the Chaos lineup has been "Loyalists, but with daemons."
FW is merely continuing the trend with their stuff. The Renegades and Heretics bit is actually unplayably bad right now because it doesn't get hardly anything from IG - no superheavies other than the mediocre Baneblade (i.e. not the Shadowsword), no Hades, no Malcador Annhilators or Infernuses, no Tauroxes... I could go on, but to say they have "everything that is IG" is disingenuous or misinformed in the extreme.

That is simply because those are the models that FW have.
So they will put out rules for a model they happen to have, with no regards how that affects the balance of the game. If they came out with chaos shadowsword conversion kit tomorrow that thing would suddenly pop up in some demon army the next day, totally legal.
That is an argument against FW, not for.

And 'giving everyone access to everything' means exactly that:
(GW) Chaos does not have access to artillery tanks (other than DeathGuard?), but now they do thanks to FW.
(GW) Chaos does not have access to bombers, but now they do.
(GW) Chaos does not have access to drop pods, now they do.
(GW) Chaos does not have access to flying transports, now they do.

Sure, not each exact unit is available, but do you see how every options seems to get covered by FW somehow?

Ok you have that completely backwards.

Loyalists should not have access to most of the “heresy era” tech, no one makes it in the imperium where as traitors still make these machines and have no codex telling them what they can and cannot use, this is why loyalists get the “relic” rule and chaos doesn’t, then there is the idiocy that loyalists get catapractii and tartorus termies and chaos doesn’t.

It’s the loyalists “that get everything” not chaos.

**Mmmpi**

Well, that's what you get when you have a third party making your expansion.

And before the "brigade" comes back, yes third party.

FW may be housed in the same building, and be owned by GW, but it's still a separate company, with it's own staff and management. GW could have made it in-house anytime they wanted, and haven't.

**Galas**

Mmmpi wrote:
Well, that's what you get when you have a third party making your expansion.

And before the "brigade" comes back, yes third party.

FW may be housed in the same building, and be owned by GW, but it's still a separate company, with it's own staff and management. GW could have made it in-house anytime they wanted, and haven't.

To say that FW is a separate company from GW is like saying the different developers team of a publisher like EA or Blizzard are from a different company. They may work in different products but they are clearly under the same umbrella and regularly work together, do cross-game promotions (Blizzard do this regularly), etc...

If not, why theres FW point changes in CA?

**Mmmpi**

Because GW felt like it. One of the complaints I've heard about the CA points changes for FW was that people felt that it was like GW never actually talked to the FW staff when they made those changes.

**Galas**

That wasn't my argument. FW and the normal GW's studio are just two separate teams, but from the beginning FW has always done his products for warhammer, ok, more targeted towards modelists, but that doesn't mean anything.

Heck, GW even sells Smaug, a FW model, from his webstore. FW are not a "third party" like Kromlech or others. Theres no point or reason behind that statement. Is just factually untrue. And I say this when the only FW model I have is a legit but second-hand buyed Achillus Dreadnought for my Custodes.

**Azreal13**

GW reports FW financials as part of the same figures as GW.com.

By the logic that FW are third party, so is anything sold through the GW site. Or, indeed, Black Library.

All FW is is a brand name identifying that they represent something separate from GW Main, just like Citadel, Black Library etc..

**Mmmpi**

Incorrect. They share quite a bit, but are still separate entities. Probably have a reason for it, like taxes or something.

**Azreal13**

No. Not even slightly correct.

Forge World is reported as part of the "Mail Order" breakdown of GW's turnover. As per their last report..

In addition mail order segment revenue of £2,143,000 for the six months to 27 November 2016 previously reported as non-core mail order and £10,283,000 previously reported as Citadel and Forge World are now reported together as Mail order which reflects the management structure in place at 28 May 2017 and 26 November 2017.

You do not declare a "company" as part of your total earnings for tax reasons.

Neither does Forge World have either a company registration number nor a VAT number available on its web page. Which it should do, we're it a separate entity from GW. But it doesn't have either, because all it is is a registered mark of GW PLC.

**Mmmpi**

Ah, so you agree that the others are incorrect.

**Azreal13**

See my edit after going to get quotes, sensing I'd need them.

**Mmmpi**

Declaring another companies profits with yours happens when one company owns the other.

**Formosa**

Azreal13 wrote:
See my edit after going to get quotes, sensing I'd need them.

Dude he is clearly trolling you, let it go.

**Azreal13**

Oh, I'm aware, but I'm not going to let unsubstantiated nonsense like that go unchallenged.

**Formosa**

Then crack on, we all know he is talking nonsense though.

**Azreal13**

Formosa wrote:
Then crack on, we all know he is talking nonsense though.

Yeah, I'm just highlighting it for the silent, non-posting majority. Otherwise people might read it and assume because nobody disagreed that it was true, and then this bollocks just gets perpetuated ad nauseam.