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Just because you disagree with that, doesn't invalidate anything else.

But facts are facts.

 Mmmpi wrote:
Declaring another companies profits with yours happens when one company owns the other.

FW has never been a separate company. It is a division of GW, not another company owned by them.


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 Mmmpi wrote:
Just because you disagree with that, doesn't invalidate anything else.

But facts are facts.

The irony is heavy.

As heavy as the truth.

 Mmmpi wrote:
Declaring another companies profits with yours happens when one company owns the other.

Companies break down financial numbers for different product lines all the time.

And there is no "ownership" involved. Everyone working on the FW product line is a GW employee. Every piece of IP published under the FW brand name is owned by GW. All sales of FW products are billed to GW. All FW products are shipped by GW, from a GW address. At no point in the history of the (current) FW brand name have the people working on it been employees of a separate company, or had independent IP ownership of anything they created. Forge World is nothing more than a brand name used for certain products, just like Citadel Finecast or White Dwarf Magazine. If they are given more or less independence to work on a particular product it is only the same sort of independence where an author working on a White Dwarf might report to an immediate supervisor that is different from the one a sculptor working on a Citadel space marine kit would report to.

 Mmmpi wrote:
Well, that's what you get when you have a third party making your expansion.

And before the "brigade" comes back, yes third party.

FW may be housed in the same building, and be owned by GW, but it's still a separate company, with it's own staff and management. GW could have made it in-house anytime they wanted, and haven't.

It's not a separate company, it's just another division, like Accounting or IT, to do the stuff that can't be done profitably in plastic or that has a role in the lore but otherwise doesn't really fit the model for the main studio. It's Games Workshop D.B.A. ForgeWorld.

They all make Games Workshop products, they're all Games Workshop employees, they're all running through the same web domain, they don't file separate taxes, they're paychecks all say "Games Workshop", when you look at all the legal and copyright bits on FW's site and in their books it all talks about Games Workshop and not Forgeworld

At this point, if you're argument has to rest on how one sales channel is structured differently from another as it relates to "officialdom", and not on anything in the rules or how games workshop runs their own games and events, you're probably getting into the weeds.

Oh, the validity of the rules is a separate topic in many ways.

I've already said that their validity is most likely as you've said it to be.

On that topic my argument is that it's an expansion, and that people deciding not to use it is not as you have said, silly, or as some have implied, a sign of mental infirmity. Most people who reject FW have valid reasons for doing it. You just don't like those reasons.

FW is fine for Open Play and Narrative Play only. It has no place in Matched Play and especially not for pick-up games against a stranger.

I always stipulate “No FW” before the game; disagree and we don’t have to play. Some people are understanding and fine with it and others not so much. Odds are, the ones that get salty about it wouldn’t be enjoyable to play against anyway.

 oni wrote:
It has no place in Matched Play and especially not for pick-up games against a stranger.

Why?

 oni wrote:
Odds are, the ones that get salty about it wouldn’t be enjoyable to play against anyway.

Yeah, how dare people "get salty" about the fact that you insist on getting to veto anything about their army that you don't like, while not giving them similar veto power over your own choices. They must clearly be awful people who aren't enjoyable to play against. Or do you give your opponents similar veto power? Do you happily dump your existing army and buy a bunch of new SoB because your opponent says that space marines have no place in matched play, especially in pick-up games against a stranger?

 Mmmpi wrote:

On that topic my argument is that it's an expansion

That was true several editions ago when the books were marked Warhammer 40,000 Expansion but how are they any different now?


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 Mmmpi wrote:
Most people who reject FW have valid reasons for doing it. You just don't like those reasons.

Those reasons are no more valid and in many cases rather less valid than rejecting GW units.

Many of those reasons are based on pure ignorance with no real foundation.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mmmpi wrote:
As heavy as the truth.

No, you are simply factually incorrect.

FW is no more a separate company than GW's marketing team which also has its own staff and management.

It's still true. The indexes flat out say they expand the rules.
Codexi don't say that.

No, their reasons are usually vaild. Again, you just don't like it.

I'd think that if you really believed ignorance was the issue, that you'd be trying to educate, rather then insult. But I guess I'm just the only rational one here.

 Mmmpi wrote:
It's still true. The indexes flat out say they expand the rules.
Codexi don't say that.

No, their reasons are usually vaild. Again, you just don't like it.

I'd think that if you really believed ignorance was the issue, that you'd be trying to educate, rather then insult. But I guess I'm just the only rational one here.

The arrogance is palpable. I mean, hell, you're not even the only one arguing that FW should be considered a separate entity/an expansion, and yet you STILL claim to be the only rational one?

Yes.

In a hypothetical that I'm wrong, it means I'm using erroneous information. Logic was still used to come to my conclusion.

Meanwhile, the "pro" argument so far has been "insult them, maybe they'll change their minds"

"did they change yet?"

"No?"

"Keep repeating the same insults, that'll learn them!"

 Mmmpi wrote:

No, their reasons are usually vaild. Again, you just don't like it.

Let's see:
People don't have the rules - hardly a problem with FW that people are cheating and not a problem that is confined to FW
I don't know the rules - why is your opponent only allowed to bring units you know the rules for?
It's a separate company - no, it isn't.
All FW stuff is OP - laughably incorrect
FW stuff is all for huge games - except for the vast majority that isn't
But what if someone brings a titan to a pickup game? - you'll have won by turn two, well done.


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 Mmmpi wrote:
I'd think that if you really believed ignorance was the issue, that you'd be trying to educate, rather then insult. But I guess I'm just the only rational one here.

Please point out the insult. Or are you just playing the victim card now?

FW has been constantly a party to abuse, and it's use is frequently seen as a mark of poor quality of player.

People don't wake up and go "Oh I'm going to hate forgeworld today"

They learned not to trust it.

Is this a Forgeworld problem? No. But did the ban solve many of those problems for these groups? Yes. So it's a valid response. They had a problem, and their solution fixed that problem. Is there a better response? Sure, but it's working for them, and so they've had no reason to change it.

That's why I've said educate, don't insult.

 conker249 wrote:
I won't play against FW. It just sucks the fun out of the game for me. For my local Meta, I don't like playing against Khorne Brass Scorpions, Dread Claws, Impalers, Or Dark Eldar Tantulus and Reapers. Baneblades aren't fun either.
I just like regular Codex or regular Index. I lose a lot, which I am fine with, I just get utterly curbstomped or tabled quickly when those are on the field. At that point, I am really only continuing the match for my opponent to have fun, while looking at my watch hoping the match is over so I can drive 1.5 hours home and hope next weeks game goes better

None of those units are unbeatable. KBS's are rather flimsy and dread claws are overcosted drop pods with a melta attack. A baneblade is better than every unit you have mentioned, and guess what...bane blades are GW proper. So.........ban GW?

Instead of blaming your loss's on some esoteric idea that because it isn't in a games workshop box then it must be overpowered waac cheese. How about trying to upgrade your list/play to lose less? Perhaps you make battle reports to figure out just what has been leading to your loss's?

Or, you could just stop caring about winning and just play for the fun of it. Either method is going to yield far more positive results for you than blaming anything but yourself. But seriously, how are you getting tabled by dread claws? What do you do when you fight marines with drop pods? What about alpha legion lists? Plasma vets? Raven Guard? Eldar? Guard gun lines? Wonder Twins? I'm not trying to be rude, honestly. But people blaming an entire company for a loss of fun is well within your right, but its also in my right to ask you the questions I have ask.

Calling people silly is in insult. Not a major one, but when you keep saying it in the context used, it makes your feelings and lack of respect known.

 Mmmpi wrote:
FW has been constantly a party to abuse, and it's use is frequently seen as a mark of poor quality of player.

People don't wake up and go "Oh I'm going to hate forgeworld today"

They learned not to trust it.

Is this a Forgeworld problem? No. But did the ban solve many of those problems for these groups? Yes. So it's a valid response. They had a problem, and their solution fixed that problem. Is there a better response? Sure, but it's working for them, and so they've had no reason to change it.

That's why I've said educate, don't insult.

I have yet to meet a forgeworld "hater". Thankfully you guys are a serious minority in my area. So because someone playing a R&H army is a poor quality player? (nevermind R&H are flatly inferior to guard, which are GW produced). How about those DKoK players? CLEARLY WAAC scum. Amrite? For every broken forgeworld model or rule I can show you two from GW proper.

Apparently my response never made it.

No, there's a perception born of experience. The majority of people who use or want to use forgeworld are probably fine people.

I think this may be unique to 40k (being in a 40k thread and such) but I have never had this kind of issue with AoS or LOTR. In old warhammer the only way to get some army units was FW.

 Mmmpi wrote:
FW has been constantly a party to abuse

And codex rules haven't? JFC, have we forgotten all the game-breaking lists that used only codex rules? Riptide spam, scatter laser jetbikes, etc? It's utterly insane to single out FW rules for complaint about "abuse" when everything else GW publishes is just as bad, if not worse.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:
FW has been constantly a party to abuse

And codex rules haven't? JFC, have we forgotten all the game-breaking lists that used only codex rules? Riptide spam, scatter laser jetbikes, etc? It's utterly insane to single out FW rules for complaint about "abuse" when everything else GW publishes is just as bad, if not worse.

My god, Riptide lists were worse than anything FW has ever put out. Seriously. Its like GW stopped caring and was just seeing how much they could break the game before the reboot. They certainly raked in the cash selling scatter bikes however.

 oni wrote:
FW is fine for Open Play and Narrative Play only. It has no place in Matched Play and especially not for pick-up games against a stranger.

I always stipulate “No FW” before the game; disagree and we don’t have to play. Some people are understanding and fine with it and others not so much. Odds are, the ones that get salty about it wouldn’t be enjoyable to play against anyway.

What armies do you play? I see ultras on your tag, so if I were to say "no hellblasters, no special characters, no scouts, no chapter master stratagem, no relic banner, no razorbacks, no plasma, and no stormravens, because that stuff has no place in matched play or against a stranger! And if you get salty about it you're probably not enjoyable to play against anyway!" You would be totally fine with that?

So my 31k era battle company I use for casual games cant have a Leviathan and Contemptor Mortis despite having tacticals, assault marines, and other 'bad' units?

Boo.

 Mmmpi wrote:
Apparently my response never made it.

No, there's a perception born of experience. The majority of people who use or want to use forgeworld are probably fine people.

Man.... your troll power is a sight to see but move on, it’s abundantly clear what your doing now, anymore nonsense like this and the thread will likely be closed.

 Formosa wrote:


Man.... your troll power is a sight to see but move on, it’s abundantly clear what your doing now, anymore nonsense like this and the thread will likely be closed.

Yes, because disagreeing with you is trolling.

Of course! Why didn't I see it before!

Only the Forgeworld Brigade is allowed to disagree on Dakka! All hail the mighty Forgeworld Brigade! May they always smell of resin!

Seriously now. If you're going to accuse me of trolling, well that goes both ways. I could easily say the 13 pages you guys have been brigading as doing very much the same. So don't be childish.

Well, on the point of FW being a seperate company you've been proven wrong, it has little to do with agreeing or not, it's a fact.

As usual one should decide from case to case.
Should you inform your opponent that you are bringing a Titan to the game? Probably.
Should you inform your opponent you're bringing Guilliman, a Leviathan or Mortarion to the game? In a casual environment I'd say so.
Should you inform your opponent that you don't want to play against anything FW at all? Definitely, as that would raise several questions for me. Are my Terminators built with FW-conversion kits out? Is that overpriced Blight Drone out so that I'll take the much stronger GW Bloat Drone?

Banning FW completely just seems pretty arbitrary for me.

 Mmmpi wrote:

 Formosa wrote:


Man.... your troll power is a sight to see but move on, it’s abundantly clear what your doing now, anymore nonsense like this and the thread will likely be closed.

Yes, because disagreeing with you is trolling.

Of course! Why didn't I see it before!

Only the Forgeworld Brigade is allowed to disagree on Dakka! All hail the mighty Forgeworld Brigade! May they always smell of resin!

Seriously now. If you're going to accuse me of trolling, well that goes both ways. I could easily say the 13 pages you guys have been brigading as doing very much the same. So don't be childish.

The sheer amount of false statements you keep making and blatant disregard for others points indicates quite clearly you are either being wilfully ignorant or trolling, your fine to not agree with others, but you are not doing that, you seem to be going out of your way to aggravate others.


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Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Well, on the point of FW being a seperate company you've been proven wrong, it has little to do with agreeing or not, it's a fact.

As usual one should decide from case to case.
Should you inform your opponent that you are bringing a Titan to the game? Probably.
Should you inform your opponent you're bringing Guilliman, a Leviathan or Mortarion to the game? In a casual environment I'd say so.
Should you inform your opponent that you don't want to play against anything FW at all? Definitely, as that would raise several questions for me. Are my Terminators built with FW-conversion kits out? Is that overpriced Blight Drone out so that I'll take the much stronger GW Bloat Drone?

Banning FW completely just seems pretty arbitrary for me.

Funnily enough I cover this slightly in my mega old outdated HH review

"LORDS OF WAR:
This part of the review is mainly on ettiquit than on the lords of war choices themselves, i will start by saying that lords of war is not an optional rule as some believe it is, it works exactly the same way as allies but "unlocks" at certain points sizes, this in essence mean you can take a lord of war choice but your opponent does not have to.
This is where the ettiquit comes in, taking say.. a Baneblade to a standard game is not what some would call fair, but letting your opponent know before hand that you will be using the lord of war choice will allow them to use there own, no one wants a super heavy or primarch dropped on them out of the blue.
this is the real world and "knowledge is power, guard it well" doesn't apply here.

OK, so with the basics of ettiquite and the allies matrix out of the way we can get to the nity grity of this article, the units, I will start with the HQ options, specifically the rites of war (RoW) and the master of the legion (MTL) rules "

 Mmmpi wrote:
FW has been constantly a party to abuse, and it's use is frequently seen as a mark of poor quality of player.

People don't wake up and go "Oh I'm going to hate forgeworld today"

They learned not to trust it.

Is this a Forgeworld problem? No. But did the ban solve many of those problems for these groups? Yes. So it's a valid response. They had a problem, and their solution fixed that problem. Is there a better response? Sure, but it's working for them, and so they've had no reason to change it.

That's why I've said educate, don't insult.

Abuse what though? If you are wanting to minmax to max you should stick to gw codexes as tha''s where most broken stuff are. Taking fw dilutes your power level.

So poor quality player means one who does not optimize to the max...,

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Well, on the point of FW being a seperate company you've been proven wrong, it has little to do with agreeing or not, it's a fact.

As usual one should decide from case to case.
Should you inform your opponent that you are bringing a Titan to the game? Probably.
Should you inform your opponent you're bringing Guilliman, a Leviathan or Mortarion to the game? In a casual environment I'd say so.
Should you inform your opponent that you don't want to play against anything FW at all? Definitely, as that would raise several questions for me. Are my Terminators built with FW-conversion kits out? Is that overpriced Blight Drone out so that I'll take the much stronger GW Bloat Drone?

Banning FW completely just seems pretty arbitrary for me.

It is arbitrary but it is also easier to set a boundary than negotiate. I don't mind FW but I can see that position.