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It's a very high-sheen and pretty facade. The old GW is still back there, with absurd prices and terrible rules.

I mean, how many different ways can you write "This causes Mortal Wounds on an X+"? Seems GW hasn't found the answer to that yet, but damn it if they're not going to try!

I've been in the hobby since 2002, so depending on how you define "golden age" I either missed the first one completely, or started just before the end. (FWIW, I remember the death of WD as a useful gaming mag, the end of bitz sales, the closing of the forums, and the long slow death of specialists games. Oh, and the LOTR bubble!)

I watched GW become more closed off, less hobbyist friendly. For me the rules were okay, arguably peaking with 5th edition 40k core rules, but the codices were so poorly balanced back then it made the game pretty poor. I really didn't like 6th/7th edition, I thought they were way too bloated, with far too much dicerolling and too little meaningful choice. The models admittedly kept improving. They've shifted away from true mutli-pose, but the reality always was that if you don't either have shoulder pads, or matched arms, shoulder joints on multi=pose models look goofy. Oh, and let everybody else I watched the prices climb, first through "adjustments," now through new releases, re-releases, and the death of battle force/battalion boxes.

So what's changed? GW has a social media presences, they have content on their webpage that goes beyond selling models. The rules have improved to a point where I enjoy playing them. They learned from the release of AOS, and turned it into a product that is pretty successful. They're releasing smaller games, and specialist games. A lot has gotten better.

There are still problem areas. Price is one. Sticking to a physical rules format, while updating points, codex rules, and even core rules multiple times a year is unweildy for a lot of players. Even for myself, though I try to keep up, I remember sitting and reading a codex, and not knowing if they rules or points for a unit entry had changed. Dont' get me wrong, I love that they are finally working to both answer questions and balance units... but their model is simply driving more and more of us to simply use battlescribe, and not bother buying the books.

And price... well, the price is high, no doubt. But when you read threads like this discussing price, you see a lot of variants on the same thing: "I like the new models, but the price is too high for me, glad I bought my armies years ago." That's an utterly logical statement, but it also ignores the fact that a person who already has several 40k armies is going to get far less value out of a third army, than a person starting the hobby gets out of their first. I wish the prices were lower, but I also wish my rent was lower.

Consider that there is a lot more competition now, too. CMON, Mantic, FFG, etc. are getting the word of mouth from the olds to the youngs. I don't know about you, but I feel sick to my stomach recommending GW products to a young one on a budget.

Dark age maybe. They've done some nice things, but for every good thing they do 2 or more stupid things. And AoS is still unforgivable.

For the company's bottom line? Probably. For my personal view towards the company? Eh.

Frankly the way they ended WHFB(and the fact they ended the WHF setting at all) created a deficit of goodwill for me personally I don't know that they can ever fully address. I like a lot of what they're doing, but I find it dispiriting that the whole fantasy side of their product line - actually the thing that got me into fantasy as a genre in the first place as a kid - is of basically no interest to me any more, not because I "outgrew" it or lost interest but because they replaced it with something else entirely.

The return of Specialist Games is welcome and they're producing some stunning models, but they still seem chronically under-resourced for what they're trying to pull off and the release format and QC issues with N17s rules are an issue. They seem to be trying to hire on additional staff so hopefully those problems go away over time.

Plastic Sisters alone buys them a decent amount of latitude, but 40K is not appealing as a ruleset at the moment for me - they fixed the problem with the prior wee group of editions by reshaping the rules to better accommodate the bloated game sizes by default, rather than returning to a more rational army size and scale for standard games and confining larger sizes of army and model where they were better off, as a supplementary experience for those who wanted it that didn't impact those who don't.

So aye, a mixed bag personally, in general they're doing well. The whole "listening to and valuing customers" thing would be a tad easier to buy into without the fact that the majority of bigwigs are still the same ones who didn't just retire but purposefully took a sledgehammer to WHF - I'll never quite be able to trust that they won't just do the same again.

Their making an effort I'll give them that, but their far from a golden age.

While specialist games have come back the way they are being handled is very hit and miss. The slow roll out of necromunda is being done terribly for instance.

The biggest issue for me is while they are throwing out all these smaller games, they have butchered the two core ones. WHFB was binned, and replaced with a game nobody locally has any interest in, and 8th edition 40K has been a cluser****. Long term players have either converted to 30K or just moved to other companies offerings. In both cases the standard of rules writing has taken a nose dive. And for me the butchering of the fluff has really hurt.

The one thing they really have going for them is in the quality of their models. Even for the lines I don't like the aesthetic of, such as the deepkin I can appreciate the high standard of the models. They also know how to push my nostalgia button.

 Tamereth wrote:
Their making an effort I'll give them that, but their far from a golden age.

While specialist games have come back the way they are being handled is very hit and miss. The slow roll out of necromunda is being done terribly for instance.

The biggest issue for me is while they are throwing out all these smaller games, they have butchered the two core ones. WHFB was binned, and replaced with a game nobody locally has any interest in, and 8th edition 40K has been a cluser****. Long term players have either converted to 30K or just moved to other companies offerings. In both cases the standard of rules writing has taken a nose dive. And for me the butchering of the fluff has really hurt.

The one thing they really have going for them is in the quality of their models. Even for the lines I don't like the aesthetic of, such as the deepkin I can appreciate the high standard of the models. They also know how to push my nostalgia button.

That's a lot of subjective opinion there.
Personally i'm the opposite of Necromunda; i'd rather it rolled out slowly to A) have time to get money to actually buy the stuff and B) actually have time to build and paint everything rather than sit in boxes for months. Much more sensible than dumping it all out at the start.

You call a butcher, i and the people i play with call a refresh. 40K has become actually playable for the first time in about 5 years and i've gotten more AoS games in the last 6 months than i did in two years of WFB. And of course fluff is completely subjective. All anecdotal of course, but horses for coarses and all that.

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:

Personally i'm the opposite of Necromunda; i'd rather it rolled out slowly to A) have time to get money to actually buy the stuff and B) actually have time to build and paint everything rather than sit in boxes for months. Much more sensible than dumping it all out at the start.

So you'd rather have a rulebook only available in a £75 box set then another (so far) 3 x £17.50 supplement books all contradicting each other, with probably another 2 x £17.50 still to come.
That's £162.50 to get the rules, with a lot of redundant out dated pages. I'm not sure why you'd prefer that to a £40 (or even £50) large hardback ruleback with all the rules and gangs in to start with.

Fair enough, release the models in stages as they make them and to allow people to buy each as they come out.
The method they've used on the rules is a terrible cash grab and doesn't get them a 'silver age' from me.

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:

You call a butcher, i and the people i play with call a refresh. 40K has become actually playable for the first time in about 5 years and i've gotten more AoS games in the last 6 months than i did in two years of WFB. And of course fluff is completely subjective. All anecdotal of course, but horses for coarses and all that.

Except they could have kept both systems alive. All they'd have to do is add new army books for the new types of armies for the old warhammer (if they wanted to cash grab them into that setting even).
The only cost to them would be maybe putting both square and round bases in each box. People could then play AoS or WHFB8 whichever they prefered.

Oh, but "Silver Age" NuGW needed trademarkable/copyrightable names for everything so no one could claim it was just Tolkien style generic fantasy. Everything had to be destroyed and re-invented so they could claim it was all their own ideas. Sigh.

If i can pick and choose the books i need rather than having to buy a book full of stuff i don't want or need, then yes, i'd rather have the small books.

Possibly, possibly not. They obviously didn't think it was worth the general effort to keep alive. And i doubt it was a decision made without a lot of debate. Both business and emotionally. But there it is, people can move on or keep playing with their old stuff, it's not difficult.

Again, business. No business would go through the cost and effort of doing what they did unless they had too. Yet no one ever seems to think about that part.

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
If i can pick and choose the books i need rather than having to buy a book full of stuff i don't want or need, then yes, i'd rather have the small books.

Except you can't pick and choose, each Gang War includes material that overwrites content from prior Gang Wars and/or the rulebook, and it's only after three of them that we're beginning to approach a postgame sequence as detailed and feature-complete as the original game's. If you're going to try and play the game as Necromunda, ie a campaign game, thus far you need all the Gang Wars and there's no indication that will change.

Possibly, possibly not. They obviously didn't think it was worth the general effort to keep alive.

That's the thing though, they didn't need to keep it alive, all they had to do was not murder it. Now, I'm not naive, there would have been almost as much outrage and complaining at the time if they'd announced WHFB was being retired and they were coming out with their new alternate-reality Warhammer game with ludicrous names for everything, but the key point there is at the time. People don't look at AoS and feel annoyed and put out that it exists, they get annoyed and put out that it exists at the expense of WHF, that they got suckered into thinking GW was about to give WHFB the rules revamp and release attention it needed, only for the End Times stuff to pull a bait & switch and turn into a really sloppily executed act of vandalism instead. Had GW just done what you suggest everyone else do and "move on", it wouldn't still be an issue, and we know that because of what happened with the prior incarnation of Specialist Games - folk grumbled and quite rightly insisted GW were being daft by ignoring and then dropping them, but they persisted just fine and there was little genuine ire. But then, that's the problem; GW didn't have confidence that AoS could succeed on its own merits with the resources they were willing to put into it out of the gate. They knew leaving WHF intact would mean the community for the game would remain viable for several years, so they tore it all down and essentially told fans to get on board with the newshiny or bugger off.

Again, business. No business would go through the cost and effort of doing what they did unless they had too. Yet no one ever seems to think about that part.

I always find that rejoinder pretty unconvincing. That something makes commercial sense for a company(which in this case is debatable IMO, WHFB was a very popular game once and it was GW's business decisions that changed that, had they started making different decisions they could have changed it back) has no bearing on how people do or should feel about it. When the power company puts up prices when the wholesale cost of gas rises, then bring the price back down again at a much, much slower rate when the wholesale price falls again, that makes sound commercial sense. It's also a dick move and people get justifiably annoyed by it. All sorts of behaviour can make sound commercial sense for a company, and yet be considered a bad thing by some or all of their customers. "But muh bottom line" is not a get out of jail free card.

I really like all the specialist games GW produce (except for the disgusting cash grabs that are the gang war books), but the 2 main games have taken a turn for the worst recently, especially lore wise.

At least, the minis are top notch for the most part, but i'm not sure it's enough to compensate for the butchering of the lore and the shallowfication of the rules.

For me it's both yes and no.

Yes: actual engagement via social media and the Warhammer Community site. At least attempting to clean up the mess that was 7th edition 40k. A proper approach to FAQ and errata for 40k. Some decent value in their STart Collecting boxes is good to see too.

No: AoS is still terrible and apparently already needs a new edition, which is a worrying sign of the bad old days of constant edition changes to generate extra cash. I was really excited for the return of Necromunda...then less so as I read about the rules...then astounded at the stupid approach they've taken to rolling out the rules. The more I see of 40k the less faith I have in the ability of the designers to actually write good rules. Whether it's a deficit of skill or the result of corporate meddling, I don't know, but I think there's a good game trying to break out of the 40k ruleset, it just seems to be stifled by a series of bad decisions. GW's models remain extremely hit and miss and entirely too expensive.

I think what we're seeing is a company that was previously so bad it's very easy for them to improve. There are some good steps, for sure, but also a lot of the old practices have remained and I still don't think they put nearly enough emphasis on trying to sort out the rules of their games compared to the effort they put into making new models.

I think silver age is a good word for it, Lots of big improvements, but not what I would call a "golden age". For me it's mainly two reasons for this.

1. Prices, GW insist on pricing themselves as a boutique brand while being the only player on the market with inhouse plastic production capabilities.

2. And the bigger issue, the stilted creativity that comes when the suits take over the company. This is especially evident in AoS where the world and the naming clearly is decided by marketing to be as "copy rightable" as possible, rather then coming from any creative spark of the designers themselves. This lack of creative "spark" and boardroom design is for me the reason that GW wont have any "golden ages" going forward, even though they might be doing very well financially.

I could also mention the rules, but as I have moved away from GW games to greener pastures, that doesn't bother me as much

On AOS 2.0 being all about selling books - the new edition rules are said to still be free to download, just like AOS 1.0. So no book selling there.

8th edition 40k has definitely created a revival with my playgroup. We now have monthly game days, and are going to start playing more often on between them as well. 6th-7.5 nearly killed all gaming interest, and now we’re playing even more than we did in early 5th. It’s been great for us.

Personally, it feels like going to see the band you were a massive fan of when you were a kid in concert.

The nostalgia of all the greatest hits is great, but when they play the new material there's something missing, and you come away feeling a bit sad for reasons you can't completely explain, while still getting excited for the next album in the vain hope it'll feel like it used to, but it never really does.

In addition to reviving stuff like necromunda don't forget shadespire. It's really good and way more popular than GW prolly thought would happen

I wouldn't call this GW's "Silver Age."

They've made a couple good moves, with Facebook pages and the community site; they're marketing now when they weren't before. But I think that for the most part, they are continuing as they have for years, just with a new and more attractive face.

The rules for both games could be better, both in clarity of writing and interesting gameplay focused on in-game decision-making. For the investment of money, time and effort it takes to assemble an army, I think the reward on the tabletop, which better resembles a fun casual boardgame is disproportionately low compared to what you put into it.
The Fate of Konor/Season of War-type events they've done are nice; it would be even better to see full organized play- something resembling what Wizards does with Magic would be great.
Their products are poor value, and have priced me out.
The models are improved on a technical level. They can put more detail on models now, and do poses they couldn't before. Faces are technically more defined. However, while many of their offerings of the last 2-3 years are nice looking, just as many are lacking. They're flashy, many are overdecorated, and that "special something" is often missing. Multi-pose models look to be a thing of the past now in favor of said flashy and heavily decorated style And for some reason cloth- robes, capes, tabards, etc. just don't look "right."
The way they're handling the specialist games is just silly. Put all the rules into one book, releasing good value kits as you're able. Don't expect me to plop $100 on Newcromunda, then purchase each new book as it comes out to play the full game.

Blastaar wrote:
Put all the rules into one book, releasing good value kits as you're able. Don't expect me to plop $100 on Newcromunda, then purchase each new book as it comes out to play the full game.

GW won't do this ever again unles there's some legal changes or the market itself changes.

There are several quite large companies that make good profit (some selling as much if not more than GW prices) making alternate sculpts for GW products. No other model line really has to weather that kind of additional pressure. There might be the odd model here or there but not even Warmachine has whole other companies running making alternate models for the whole range or a whole faction.

Smaller companies know if they make parts or models for GW games then they've got an instant market that's large enough to support them. So GW in turn no longer wants to put any product in the book that isn't sold as a model by them. They don't want to leave the option on the table for a 3rd party to get models onto the table before GW has a model to put on the table themselves.

This is something that has grown over the years, in the early days it was a minor issue, now its likely a noticeable effect. Of course its not all bad and variety in the market is a good thing for customers; but it means that GW will no longer put rules for things into books unless that model is coming out on the same day or at least the same month as the book (as we've seen with pretty much every release for the last few years).

 Overread wrote:

Blastaar wrote:
Put all the rules into one book, releasing good value kits as you're able. Don't expect me to plop $100 on Newcromunda, then purchase each new book as it comes out to play the full game.

GW won't do this ever again unles there's some legal changes or the market itself changes.

There are several quite large companies that make good profit (some selling as much if not more than GW prices) making alternate sculpts for GW products. No other model line really has to weather that kind of additional pressure. There might be the odd model here or there but not even Warmachine has whole other companies running making alternate models for the whole range or a whole faction.

Smaller companies know if they make parts or models for GW games then they've got an instant market that's large enough to support them. So GW in turn no longer wants to put any product in the book that isn't sold as a model by them. They don't want to leave the option on the table for a 3rd party to get models onto the table before GW has a model to put on the table themselves.

This is something that has grown over the years, in the early days it was a minor issue, now its likely a noticeable effect. Of course its not all bad and variety in the market is a good thing for customers; but it means that GW will no longer put rules for things into books unless that model is coming out on the same day or at least the same month as the book (as we've seen with pretty much every release for the last few years).

i think this could be quite easily solved by going the same route as Malifaux or MEDGE, couldn't it?- Release the rules for models with the models, in the box and/or online, whatever. The core rules, the rules that "make the game," should be collated into one volume, not pieced out like Necro is just to get more cash out of us.

They are amking the right moves to solidfy their hold on the gaming market and competing again in niches they had previously abandoned. That is good for their shareholders.

However, the magic is gone for me personally. I am happy for those that still have it or are getting it back.

I am happy to buy from GW again,there was a half decade under Kirby when my purchases dropped to near zero on principle.

Post Kirby I will buy into specialist games and buy starter boxes, though normally to port to 9th Age. My spending nevertheless has mushroomed and I don't mind. I also support my local GW and buy some items from store.

All in all GW has issues, the design studio is still a mess, but their business ethos has cleared up a little, and their image a lot. i even forgave them for Age of Sigmar.

Blastaar wrote:
i think this could be quite easily solved by going the same route as Malifaux or MEDGE, couldn't it?- Release the rules for models with the models, in the box and/or online, whatever. The core rules, the rules that "make the game," should be collated into one volume, not pieced out like Necro is just to get more cash out of us.

GW already do this in AoS.
All warscrolls are available for free with the models. You can also get the warscrolls as PDF downloads on their site or Forgeworlds site or through the free AoS app.
All points for Matched Play for the warscrolls are available through their free army builder (Scrollbuilder.com).
That is coupled with the free rules, including the upcoming 2.0. version of the rules that is also going to be free and backwards compatible.

The only thing that is marginally must-buy are the Generals handbook, but even that can be done without, especially if you have a mate with the book or you simply remember the basic 6 Matched Play missions.

To me, GW is heading in the wrong direction except rules wise. It is great that they’re adjusting rules, fixing broken units etc on the go - as long as they dont scrap it all next edition, but keep building it (they probably wont, to force people into buying new editions by making fundamental changes, even if unneccesary). But them being more dynamic is great.

What is bad is that they have for a long time been extremely focuses on huge centerpiece models, upscaling everything. It is no longer about armies, but about huge monsters/tanks/walkers/primarchs with some minions scuffling around its feet. The ever increasing number of armies is also bad, and makes it very hard for GW to balance the game.

IMO an army that spends alot of its points on a big centerpiece model looks much worse than the army that went with more units in a more traditional way. GW seems to disagree (and alot of players undoubtedly).

I feel like the gaming aspect of GW is better than it's been in years. They are finally back to making decent games (but IMO these are mostly due to the specialist games team).

Where GW has stumbled a bit is in their 40k lore advances, which I think did some damage to the setting. But at the very least...things are better now than they were a few years ago.

Maybe silver age for those of us who have followed the company since the early days

I think you've now got the double-edged sword of the company being massive and publically owned. On the one hand you've got some absolutely wonderful new miniatures, fantastically detailed and professional publications, and its never been easier to get hold of games and miniatures, pretty much regardless of where you live in the world.
On the other hand because its no longer a smaller group of enthusiasts doing what they want (possibly to the accountant's chagrin) there's an element of it now feeling like its run by suits, rather than the old "by players for the players" thing.
The 'old' GW would never have replaced WHFB with AOS (it would have been another game alongside it), and Rick Priestly and pals would have never let the new Necromunda get anywhere near the printers in the form that it's now been released in. Small book releases which make the accountants happy, but have caused a massive headache for anyone trying to play the game seriously because of the continuity/version discrepancies, and the feeling that the game is unfinished.
So - I don't think it's all sweetness and gravy, but not all doom and gloom either. There are positives and negatives, how much weight is given to each of them is probably down to us as individuals, and what we want from games and the wargaming hobby.

 Azreal13 wrote:
Personally, it feels like going to see the band you were a massive fan of when you were a kid in concert.

The nostalgia of all the greatest hits is great, but when they play the new material there's something missing, and you come away feeling a bit sad for reasons you can't completely explain, while still getting excited for the next album in the vain hope it'll feel like it used to, but it never really does.

This as well - at least for veteran wargamers.

But at least for younger players (<20yrs) who only know of GW, there wargaming experiences will be that much richer than if they were playing say five years ago.

I wouldn't say "silver age" as much as slightly tarnished pewter age.

GW squatted my biker gang and i said "screw GW", tried to come back in 3rd(didnt like it +pushy dork @ GW store), again in early 7th(rules). Then i heard about the big changes to the game and said you know what I'll get back on the hobby horse. I hadn't built/painted/played with anything wargame related for 25yrs up until 8th dropped.

I am one of about ten new or returning players in our group and apparently the 40k night @FLGS is the best it's ever been.

but for all of the good, there still is the bad. Necromunda and how they've drawn it out and forcing you to buy (I assume it will be all of them) gang wars. not having all of the main gangs out is stupid. I'm purposefully now buying the game & books until Delaque is out.

I have some trepidation for how they'll do Titanicus. I'm fosho buying grand master but I'm not sure on short term support.

for every hit there's more than 1 miss.

 Overread wrote:

Blastaar wrote:
Put all the rules into one book, releasing good value kits as you're able. Don't expect me to plop $100 on Newcromunda, then purchase each new book as it comes out to play the full game.

GW won't do this ever again unles there's some legal changes or the market itself changes.

There are several quite large companies that make good profit (some selling as much if not more than GW prices) making alternate sculpts for GW products. No other model line really has to weather that kind of additional pressure. There might be the odd model here or there but not even Warmachine has whole other companies running making alternate models for the whole range or a whole faction.

Smaller companies know if they make parts or models for GW games then they've got an instant market that's large enough to support them. So GW in turn no longer wants to put any product in the book that isn't sold as a model by them. They don't want to leave the option on the table for a 3rd party to get models onto the table before GW has a model to put on the table themselves.

This is something that has grown over the years, in the early days it was a minor issue, now its likely a noticeable effect. Of course its not all bad and variety in the market is a good thing for customers; but it means that GW will no longer put rules for things into books unless that model is coming out on the same day or at least the same month as the book (as we've seen with pretty much every release for the last few years).

The thing is though, it's largely based on selling alternate weapons GW don't pack enough of in boxes (special weapons and the like). If they release the book with the models to stop alternate models, the companies selling alternate weapons will still do so, just later in the game. The way it is now is a blatant cashgrab, it can be said to be in the name of shutting down alternate competitors but that's just false

 Overread wrote:


GW won't do this ever again unles there's some legal changes or the market itself changes.

There are several quite large companies that make good profit (some selling as much if not more than GW prices) making alternate sculpts for GW products. No other model line really has to weather that kind of additional pressure.

Not if we consider historical miniatures, there are hundreds (if not thousands) of Viking miniatures/parts produced by a multitude of companies, and they seem to be doing allright! This is more about GWs corporate approach to IP-protection and their hubris surrounding it

 Galas wrote:
I entered expecting a Gimgamgoo/Peregrine rant.

I wasn't dissapointed.

+1

Some people really just have their niche! Makes AI really easy to write.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
But what are your thoughts?

I agree completely. I started gaming in the early 90's with Space Hulk (1st edition) and Epic Space Marine, along with a used copy of 40k 2nd edition (and started my Genestealer Cult!) So I had written off GW by approximately 2015 and had joined the legions of whiners online who really just love to hate and criticize GW. I mean, it was kind of fun to join in the cacaphony of hatred - you really did feel kind of slighted by GW at this point. While technically they owe you nothing, as they're just selling a product, everyone feels some sort of brand loyalty to the things they like to purchase. So anyways, in 2015, SBG support was gone; 40k was into the fourth rewrite of 3rd edition, Warhammer 8th was the worst thing they had ever released. The only "specialist" kind of game was Space Hulk 2014 reprint. Things looked gloomy. I owned pretty much every Middle-earth model and was in the processing of selling all my old 40k and WHFB stuff. Actually, I had no 40k armies left at that point and was down to my last three WHFB armies (who were getting used in Kings of War, my main game of choice at this point, along with Bolt Action - both written by one of my fav ex-GW peeps, Alessio Cavatore)

then Age of Sigmar came out and it was fun as hell, Specialist Games was spun off and GW renewed Middle-earth licenses and started a Middle-earth team and started releasing not only out of print but also new models for Middle-earth, and then they released the best edition of 40k ever, and somehow also wound up reducing the cost of entry. Now it's freakin' mid 2018 and I have four Age of Sigmar armies bought specifically for Age of Sigmar (Tzeentch, Nurgle, Stormcast, and some Khorne), I have bought like a half dozen 40k armies (Orks, Steel Legion, Chaos Marines, Primaris Marines, Thousand Sons, Death Guard), and, of course, all the new Middle-earth stuff coming from the new Middle-earth Team. And I'm about to blow my wad on Adeptus Titanicus because the models and terrain look gorgeous and puts my old Epic 2nd edition Titan Legions to shame.