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I suppose I didn't have any real stake in Snoke. I really like Abrams on the whole, but Lost never really appealed to precisely because his mystery boxes have always been a little empty feeling. Even the initial plane crash never felt like it had an answer in mind the way a really good twist often does.

I found Snoke in this one super appealing largely because he's character and not an enigma. One thing the prequels completely and totally failed to build on was just how broken and dominated Vader was in the presence of the Emperor. Having an extended sequence focused on the idea that Snoke is more or less constantly monitoring every thought

 gorgon wrote:


@Manchu & Easy E: While I think you've tried to qualify it somewhat, the 'he hates X!' line is in the upper echelon of most shallow, fanboy things that one can use in a discussion. It ends up saying much more about you than any creator you're criticizing, and lends absolutely nothing to the conversation. You guys are better than that.

Obviously, I am not better than that.

It is clear that Rian Johnson understands what makes Star Wars work and why it was so popular. You have to be able to understand that in order to de-construct it. Then, knowing what makes it work to go about and use that knowledge to then Npurposely NOT do those things? That says something about what you think about the people who like said thing and the said thing itself. It says that it wasn't good enough as is and it needs to be re-made.

I know De-constructing stuff is all the rage. You see it books and comics, you see it in cuisine, you see it in TV and cinema, you see it in art, you see it in politics, you see it in pop culture/culture; you see De-construction everywhere and it is the "cool" thing to do now. Perhaps that is what led him down such a path? I don't know. I do know that De-construction is in the zeitgeist right now. That is part of why I feel that TLJ is a very 20Teens movie. It is a clear encapsulation of so much of our current American culture and zeitgeist.

I do not even disagree with the premise that Star Wars needed somethign to shake it up and break the formula; but TLJ was not it. There were good elements such as the Rey/Ren team-up, the idea that Rey's parents are no bodies, even an embittered Luke were all needed. However, there was so much other stuff that just cluttered it up and distracted from the key changes that needed to be made.

Clearly, I have a lot of gestalt ideas about TLJ, but I am just not eloquent or articulate enough to fully enunciate them in a clear manner.

 Lance845 wrote:
I have ZERO interest in more clones and tying everything back to palpatine again.

Move forward. Leave the old gak behind. Ignoring the EU is the best decision they made.

Aside from the little detail that several of the EU stories are both more interesting and FAR better written than what we got in VIII...

I fully admit that some of the EU was trash, and much of it decidedly mediocre. But there were gems in the EU as well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
As you can see from the ending slave doll battle play scene, the word of the Rebellion has reached far across the galaxy.

Clearly it will turn out that people are responding to their calls for help. That naturally is a topic for the third film.

And if there's going to be enough of them to matter against the military machine of the New Order that can take over thousands of planets without even a fight and STILL spare a couple dozen star destroyers to go after the Resistance, then the two dozen surviving members of the Resistance disappear into their forces like a drop of ink into the ocean.

At which point, who even cares that those two dozen people survived in the first place? The story pretty much has to be about the massive forces REPLACING them as the primary resistance to the New order. Although... given the lack of military competence demonstrated by those survivors, that might be a good thing.

 Vulcan wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
I have ZERO interest in more clones and tying everything back to palpatine again.

Move forward. Leave the old gak behind. Ignoring the EU is the best decision they made.

Aside from the little detail that several of the EU stories are both more interesting and FAR better written than what we got in VIII...

I fully admit that some of the EU was trash, and much of it decidedly mediocre. But there were gems in the EU as well.

I fully enjoyed 7 and 8 and am really looking forward to 9. Though less because of 9 and more because I want to see where it's going when this story is done.

As for the EU, there may be some good stories in there. I liked IG-88s story in tales of the bounty hunters. I even liked Shadows of the Empire. But both of those stories have the same problem with the entire EU. It takes every single character and turns them into a reference to or some kind of destiny with the main 5 characters of the OT. Every single person in the galaxy only exists to push these same 5 people into the places they need to be in the movies, to be opposition to them afterwards so that we can keep cheering on the same couple people, or as extensions of them because they are their girl/boy friend or kids.

It doesn't matter how much you liked story X from the EU, the whole pile of it was garbage because none of it managed to legitimately break away and show us there there was a larger galaxy out there.

The BEST part of 7 and 8 so far is the steps they are taking towards that. Good. Kill off all the old characters. Kill off the dark/light side dynamic that has plagued SW lore since it's inception. Move on to something different just for the sake of variety.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
I am confident that you will see the answers to all your questions in part 3.

I am confident I will not, as I no longer care enough to waste two hours of my life on it. And I am sure I'm far from the only one.

Rian Johnson has done what many considered to be impossible. He turned a significant number of Star Wars fans completely apathetic about the future of Star Wars.

 Lance845 wrote:

It doesn't matter how much you liked story X from the EU, the whole pile of it was garbage because none of it managed to legitimately break away and show us there there was a larger galaxy out there.

The BEST part of 7 and 8 so far is the steps they are taking towards that. Good. Kill off all the old characters. Kill off the dark/light side dynamic that has plagued SW lore since it's inception. Move on to something different just for the sake of variety.

That's... somehow the exact opposite of how I feel about the EU and the sequels. The EU made the galaxy huge. Loads of stuff was going on that had nothing to do with the Skywalker family. I assume you never read the Adventure Journals?

The sequels make the galaxy feel tiny in comparison.

Good. Nobody has ever hated starwars or been more toxic to starwars than starwars fans. Glad to see them go.

Like what you like. Like it to the extent that you like it. Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

 Lance845 wrote:
You think the resistance at its strongest is 3 big ships and a few dozen fighters and bombers while being low on fuel?

Again, a serial. We are coming in durring the middle of the conflict. The first order has harried themand chiped away at them. They are stuggling to remain standing calling for aid and people dont want to send aid to a loosing battle.

Why is it ok that ANH opens in the exact same situation but its ok then but not now?

Because each step of the way we see the Rebellion GAINING ground.

We see the Rebels start ANH with one ship against overwhelmning force. Yes, the ship is lost. We later see them go to a hidden base with several starfighters - which winds up being enough force to destroy the Death Star.

They start ESB with an army at another hidden base. They salvage much of it, and by the end of the movie we see their fleet for the first time.

They go into RotJ with just the main characters, but then rendezvous with the Rebels who have an even larger fleet than we thought, and even special forces troopers. And, of course, by the end of the film they win.

In TFA the Republic runs that galaxy, and the New Order WIPES THEM AWAY IN ONE SHOT. All that's left is a small band of resistance fighters who, granted, beat the Death Star III.

In TLJ the Resistance looses nearly everything they have left, and all their friends abandon them to die.

There's really no place to go from that, that will make any sense.

 Riquende wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

It doesn't matter how much you liked story X from the EU, the whole pile of it was garbage because none of it managed to legitimately break away and show us there there was a larger galaxy out there.

The BEST part of 7 and 8 so far is the steps they are taking towards that. Good. Kill off all the old characters. Kill off the dark/light side dynamic that has plagued SW lore since it's inception. Move on to something different just for the sake of variety.

That's... somehow the exact opposite of how I feel about the EU and the sequels. The EU made the galaxy huge. Loads of stuff was going on that had nothing to do with the Skywalker family. I assume you never read the Adventure Journals?

The sequels make the galaxy feel tiny in comparison.

The entire main plot points of ep8 was Rey isn't from anyone or anywhere, snokes history doesn't matter, Kylo doesn't care about his old masters order, and anyone can be a hero. The last shot of the film is a force sensitive kid pulling a broom into his hand , holding it like a lightsaber and looking up into a field of stars. Episode 8 might as well end with big white letters saying "Anyone can be a hero now! The galaxy is full of stories we can tell that have nothing to do with anyone you have met! Get ready!"

 Lance845 wrote:

As for the EU, there may be some good stories in there.

But sometimes you get Boba Fett, a throwaway character, becoming the basis for an army.

 dogma wrote:
On screen Vader kills a blockade runner crewman

Captain Antillies, no less. (No relation to Wedge Antillies. Hey, it's a big universe...)

 Vulcan wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
You think the resistance at its strongest is 3 big ships and a few dozen fighters and bombers while being low on fuel?

Again, a serial. We are coming in durring the middle of the conflict. The first order has harried themand chiped away at them. They are stuggling to remain standing calling for aid and people dont want to send aid to a loosing battle.

Why is it ok that ANH opens in the exact same situation but its ok then but not now?

Because each step of the way we see the Rebellion GAINING ground.

We see the Rebels start ANH with one ship against overwhelmning force. Yes, the ship is lost. We later see them go to a hidden base with several starfighters - which winds up being enough force to destroy the Death Star.

They start ESB with an army at another hidden base. They salvage much of it, and by the end of the movie we see their fleet for the first time.

They go into RotJ with just the main characters, but then rendezvous with the Rebels who have an even larger fleet than we thought, and even special forces troopers. And, of course, by the end of the film they win.

In TFA the Republic runs that galaxy, and the New Order WIPES THEM AWAY IN ONE SHOT. All that's left is a small band of resistance fighters who, granted, beat the Death Star III.

In TLJ the Resistance looses nearly everything they have left, and all their friends abandon them to die.

There's really no place to go from that, that will make any sense.

"Episode VIII

"THE LAST JEDI

"The FIRST ORDER reigns. Having decimated the peaceful Republic, Supreme Leader Snoke now deploys his merciless legions to seize military control of the galaxy.

"Only General Leia Organa’s band of RESISTANCE fighters stand against the rising tyranny, certain that Jedi Master Luke Skywalker will return and restore a spark of hope to the fight.

"But the Resistance has been exposed. As the First Order speeds toward the rebel base, the brave heroes mount a desperate escape....

Where is it going to go? There will be a time jump like there always is. And hopefully there is an end to any kind of central galactic government. Id much prefer a bunch of disparate system/world governments that can butt heads. More opportunity there.

 Lance845 wrote:
Good. Nobody has ever hated starwars or been more toxic to starwars than starwars fans. Glad to see them go.

Like what you like. Like it to the extent that you like it. Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

Without Star Wars fans, Lucas is a two-movie director best known for American Graffiti.

I expect the sales for Solo and (especially) IX will make the point better than anything I can say.

 Vulcan wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
I have ZERO interest in more clones and tying everything back to palpatine again.

Move forward. Leave the old gak behind. Ignoring the EU is the best decision they made.

Aside from the little detail that several of the EU stories are both more interesting and FAR better written than what we got in VIII...

I fully admit that some of the EU was trash, and much of it decidedly mediocre. But there were gems in the EU as well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
As you can see from the ending slave doll battle play scene, the word of the Rebellion has reached far across the galaxy.

Clearly it will turn out that people are responding to their calls for help. That naturally is a topic for the third film.

And if there's going to be enough of them to matter against the military machine of the New Order that can take over thousands of planets without even a fight and STILL spare a couple dozen star destroyers to go after the Resistance, then the two dozen surviving members of the Resistance disappear into their forces like a drop of ink into the ocean.

At which point, who even cares that those two dozen people survived in the first place? The story pretty much has to be about the massive forces REPLACING them as the primary resistance to the New order. Although... given the lack of military competence demonstrated by those survivors, that might be a good thing.

I think you are underestimating Lucasfilm's complete ineptitude when it comes to scale. They will absolutely have the twelve rebels take on the entire New Order (five ships and three planets) and win by destroying a single military macguffin.

Without starwars fans there would still be massive toy lines with neat figures being sold to tons of kids.

You need to remember that for like... 10 years starwars was ONLY a toy line with kids only really catching the movies if they happened to come on TV.

Like a lot of 80s properties, the toy line was bigger then the video product and kids got the toys because they looked cool and were fun even if they knew nothing about the base product.

It wasn't until the remasters in 1997 that the movies started flooding stores and showing up in everyones home collections.

For someone who has claimed to have checked entirely out of the idea of starwars at this point you sure give a lot of a gak about whats happening with it.

 Lance845 wrote:
Without starwars fans there would still be massive toy lines with neat figures being sold to tons of kids.

You need to remember that for like... 10 years starwars was ONLY a toy line with kids only really catching the movies if they happened to come on TV.

Like a lot of 80s properties, the toy line was bigger then the video product and kids got the toys because they looked cool and were fun even if they knew nothing about the base product.

It wasn't until the remasters in 1997 that the movies started flooding stores and showing up in everyones home collections.

For someone who has claimed to have checked entirely out of the idea of starwars at this point you sure give a lot of a gak about whats happening with it.

You are being completely ridiculous. Star Wars, the complete and finished story told in three films, existed that whole time. It was not an obscure series. It was an inescapable part of mainstream culture since 1977. I'm not sure how you could possibly believe that the films weren't to be found until 1997. Do you think TV didn't exist? VCR's didn't exist?

 Lance845 wrote:
Good. Nobody has ever hated starwars or been more toxic to starwars than starwars fans. Glad to see them go.

Like what you like. Like it to the extent that you like it. Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

Seems more like people who don't like star wars for being star wars, but instead want it to be something different are the most toxic. To hate the fans for being fans is definitely one big "Fan-Hater" sign.

You've been proven wrong several times throughout this thread on various topics though that's for sure.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Without starwars fans there would still be massive toy lines with neat figures being sold to tons of kids.

You need to remember that for like... 10 years starwars was ONLY a toy line with kids only really catching the movies if they happened to come on TV.

Like a lot of 80s properties, the toy line was bigger then the video product and kids got the toys because they looked cool and were fun even if they knew nothing about the base product.

It wasn't until the remasters in 1997 that the movies started flooding stores and showing up in everyones home collections.

For someone who has claimed to have checked entirely out of the idea of starwars at this point you sure give a lot of a gak about whats happening with it.

You are being completely ridiculous. Star Wars, the complete and finished story told in three films, existed that whole time. It was not an obscure series. It was an inescapable part of mainstream culture since 1977. I'm not sure how you could possibly believe that the films weren't to be found until 1997. Do you think TV didn't exist? VCR's didn't exist?

If you were 8 years old in 1990, what access do you have to those movies?

What about '95?

I am not being ridiculous. For over 10 years most kids first interaction with starwars WAS the toys or stumbling onto one of them when they happened to air on TV. It's not like you had a netflix or tvo and could stream what you wanted. It's not like you could count on your parents buying those VCR tapes.

SOME people had them yes. But the TOYS were EVERYWHERE. You think Lucasfilm was making all that bank all those years off it airing on TV or VCR sales a couple decades later? YOU'RE being ridiculous if you think thats reasonable. I said before, SW is for kids, and nothing shows that more than the merchandise and the toys and how they kept SW in the public conscious for all those years and across age gaps.

Yes. I was 10, and the films were on TV multiple times a year. We recorded them. Everyone I knew had Star Wars on tape. The movies were extremely popular in a way that almost nothing else was for an entire generation.


The President of the United States did not name a weapons program after a toy line.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Good. Nobody has ever hated starwars or been more toxic to starwars than starwars fans. Glad to see them go.

Like what you like. Like it to the extent that you like it. Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

Seems more like people who don't like star wars for being star wars, but instead want it to be something different are the most toxic. To hate the fans for being fans is definitely one big "Fan-Hater" sign.

You've been proven wrong several times throughout this thread on various topics though that's for sure.

Ive been proven wrong that the scene I thought was in ANH with the emperor as a hologram was actually in Empire. Ive been proven wrong about nothing else.

I think Fandom in all it's forms is toxic. Fan is the root of both fandom and fanaticism. Like something. Enjoy it. But if you go watch a movie and it "makes me feel nauseous" then you give way too much of a gak about something that does not matter in the least. Dislike it and walk away.

 Easy E wrote:
Well, since no one responded to the Resistances calls for aid, my only conclusion is that the Galaxy wants to be ruled by Fascists.

I really hope that is not the subtext the film is going with.

Fascism seems quite popular these days, No one wants a democracy when a dictator will do.

You know how it is though, You might think you have a lot of friends, but you'll never know until you ask them to help you move.

I think the subtext is 'evil will always win because good is dumb'

all that struggling in the OT, pointless, they could have saved a lot of lives if they just stayed home and let vader and the emperor die of old age. Even if the rebellion can find a second ship to start a fleet and blow up the death star mk 4 that they're constructing with the help of some more marketable teddy bears, the first order will still be in charge and just reorganize into the second order for episodes 10-12.

 Lance845 wrote:
You think the resistance at its strongest is 3 big ships and a few dozen fighters and bombers while being low on fuel?

That is what TFA and TLJ collectively show us, yes.

In TFA the resistance is a splinter group with scarce backing (mostly Leia). They send their best pilot on a secret mission to find Luke. When General Leia personally enters into the fray to wrest control of the map to her brother from the New Order they have a handful of X wings and a shuttle.

The republic fleet is stated to be on a peace footing and completely destroyed by an attack on..... 7(?) planets.


In TLJ we are told the FO has made huge gains and the Resistance is now the only force opposing them. They are shown to have 3 big ships, some fighters, some bombers, and the transports throughout the course of the movie. It is made explicit that all the friends Leia, the leader of the Resistance, has can/will offer no material aid to an existential threat to the Resistance and there are no other cells/fleet groups to meet up with in the Resistance.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Crimson Devil, my bad. I can empathize with all that. Especially the car drive bit. Thanks for the context there.

 Lance845 wrote:
Without starwars fans there would still be massive toy lines with neat figures being sold to tons of kids.

Collectors, to this day, reference 3-3/4" action figures as "Star Wars size" despite the fact that the size predates Star Wars and Kenner. Hell, the term "action figure" only gained popularity due to Star Wars

In your analysis, what replaces Star Wars?

 Lance845 wrote:
If you were 8 years old in 1990, what access do you have to those movies?

You know that video rental stores existed back then, right? And it's not like Star Wars toys were taking up half the store back then, they were just one set of action figures in a whole store full of them. Star Wars certainly didn't stay a major cultural thing purely based on toy sales, or all those other toy lines that were sold next to Star Wars would be just as big in 2018.

If anything, GI Joe was the series kept alive by toys. Maybe Transformers, too. Compared to them, Star Wars toys were no great shakes, but there were those megapopular movies...

In my opinion, Star Wars toys were barely adequate until the 90's saw the introduction to Micromachines and the far more detailed and poseable action figures. The snap-tite models were the best options for anyone who didn't want to have to use two hands to hold a single spaceship.

And yet SW is why GI Joes shrunk to three and three quarters. SW toys were hugely important to the market, whether following their lead like GI Joe or buckingbtheir trend, like MotU.

 Manchu wrote:
And yet SW is why GI Joes shrunk to three and three quarters. SW toys were hugely important to the market, whether following their lead like GI Joe or buckingbtheir trend, like MotU.

I agree that they were massive sellers and massively important. I disagree that Star Wars toys lead to discovery of the movies for a generation rather than the overwhelming popularity of the movies causing the long term success of Star Wars toys.

I discovered SW because my dad gave me a business card to play with (we were poor) that for whatever reason had picture of Darth Vader on it. I immediately wanted a Darth Vader action figure, which I found at a flea market not long after. Later, I saw the movies ... I believe on CBS or NBC, which played them without commercials I think, as some kind of special event.

Well, huh. That is certainly an unusual entrance to the series. Why was Darth Vader on a business card?

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Well, huh. That is certainly an unusual entrance to the series. Why was Darth Vader on a business card?

And the hosts of the weekly planet podcast,

Mr Sundays first introduction to SW was getting a Akbar figure and Maso was given a gak grey guy from RotJ.

When my older brother had a Millennium Falcon and a Tie fighter and we had a couple characters. I remember playing with them before I have any memory of seeing the movies.



The toys were a massive gateway into SW.