Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reconsidered?

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**dogma**

Peregrine wrote:

You know that video rental stores existed back then, right? And it's not like Star Wars toys were taking up half the store back then, they were just one set of action figures in a whole store full of them. Star Wars certainly didn't stay a major cultural thing purely based on toy sales, or all those other toy lines that were sold next to Star Wars would be just as big in 2018.

To add to your point,: How many people are fiending for the next Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle toy? Can Lego sell a Leonardo for ~35% above an already high price? No, of course they can't, because while the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles occupy a certain nostalgia space, it is not an iconic franchise.

My dad, not a sci-fi buff by any means, still remembers the first time he went to see Star Wars.

**AegisGrimm**

All I know is that I am a big Star Wars fan, and after hearing all of the spoilers for TLJ, I still have yet to bother to see it.

**BertBert**

As a 90's kid, my first exposure to star wars came directly from my parents who made me watch the first trilogy when I was about 7 years old.

As far as toys are concerned, that really only started for me when the prequels came out - and it was mostly Lego.

**Lance845**

dogma wrote:
Peregrine wrote:

You know that video rental stores existed back then, right? And it's not like Star Wars toys were taking up half the store back then, they were just one set of action figures in a whole store full of them. Star Wars certainly didn't stay a major cultural thing purely based on toy sales, or all those other toy lines that were sold next to Star Wars would be just as big in 2018.

To add to your point,: How many people are fiending for the next Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle toy? Can Lego sell a Leonardo for ~35% above an already high price? No, of course they can't, because while the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles occupy a certain nostalgia space, it is not an iconic franchise.

My dad, not a sci-fi buff by any means, still remembers the first time he went to see Star Wars.

The value of a collectable has to go through some weird gak to reach high values like your talking about that has nothing to do with how iconic the franchise is.

In the 70s when sw toys were first released kids were regularly given bb guns and fire works and blew up their toys. So first and fore most you have less of the things still in exiastance in any shape worth selling. Second, and to that effect, in order for something to become really valuable it often first has to go through a thing called the trough of no value. The thing has to be worth so little it actually costs you to be holding onto it. Action comics first appearance of superman for example.

THEN people have to suddenly start giving a gak again.

Ninjaturtles toys were 10-15 years latter and especially in the early to mid 90s when everyone started collecting everything to sell one day "when it was worth millions". Because of that none of it depreciated into the trough and none of it became particularly valuable.

**Kilkrazy**

I think Lego Star Wars helped keep the flame alive in the 90s and early 2000s. But I'm not a superfan. I have only a hazy awareness that there were novels and a TV series -- Clone Wars -- outside the three core films. And the prequels, of course, which I never bothered to watch.

**trexmeyer**

Kilkrazy wrote:
I think Lego Star Wars helped keep the flame alive in the 90s and early 2000s. But I'm not a superfan. I have only a hazy awareness that there were novels and a TV series -- Clone Wars -- outside the three core films. And the prequels, of course, which I never bothered to watch.

So you watched the OT and that's it? Yes, you're not a superfan and I think it would be a stretch for you to claim to be a fan of the franchise opposed to to just the OT. That's not to say EU novels, television series, comic books, and video games were all great, but if you really loved the series how is that you didn't go looking for more material?

**Kilkrazy**

I don't claim to be a fan, let alone a superfan.

I've seen the five "real" SW films in the cinema and enjoyed them all. I'm booked to see Han Solo next Friday. I'll watch Rogue One on VOD at some point.

To me it's a great, fun, science fantasy blockbuster film series, I've not regretted watching any of the films. I've watched some of them twice in the cinema, and all of the them more then twice on VHS or DVD. I used to have the original VHS set of SW, before Lucas started mucking about with them. The one in which "Han shot first."

It's enough, though. I don't find SW such an inspiring thing that I feel driven to seek out more and more SW material.

**Vulcan**

Lance845 wrote:
Without starwars fans there would still be massive toy lines with neat figures being sold to tons of kids.

You need to remember that for like... 10 years starwars was ONLY a toy line with kids only really catching the movies if they happened to come on TV.

Like a lot of 80s properties, the toy line was bigger then the video product and kids got the toys because they looked cool and were fun even if they knew nothing about the base product.

It wasn't until the remasters in 1997 that the movies started flooding stores and showing up in everyones home collections.

For someone who has claimed to have checked entirely out of the idea of starwars at this point you sure give a lot of a gak about whats happening with it.

If the fans hadn't gone back to see the movies up to a dozen times each in the theaters, there wouldn't have been funding for the toys in the first place.

**Lance845**

Vulcan wrote:

If the fans hadn't gone back to see the movies up to a dozen times each in the theaters, there wouldn't have been funding for the toys in the first place.

Bull crap. George Lucas knew he wanted toys from the beginning. He negotiated his contract from the first movie so that instead of taking a % from sales from the tickets he had major merchandising rights. Lucas's plan was always to produce a massive toy line and other crap and make his mint on that.

Transformers was a TV show designed to sell toys, just like He-man, G.I. Joe, Go Bots, Ninja Turtles, and most everything else from the 80s 90s. George had the fore thought to do that in movie form in the 70s. A much higher production value for a live action movie and special effects, but all designed to sell toys, lunch boxes, bike helmets, holloween costumes, etc etc etc...

The movie was big but it's never left the public consciousness because it was built as a vehicle for a merchandising machine.

You think the movies profits paid for the toys, but the toys is what paid for the Skywalker Ranch, Industrial Light and Magic, and Lucas Film.

**Vulcan**

Lance845 wrote:

If you were 8 years old in 1990, what access do you have to those movies?

What about '95?

I am not being ridiculous. For over 10 years most kids first interaction with starwars WAS the toys or stumbling onto one of them when they happened to air on TV. It's not like you had a netflix or tvo and could stream what you wanted. It's not like you could count on your parents buying those VCR tapes.

SOME people had them yes. But the TOYS were EVERYWHERE. You think Lucasfilm was making all that bank all those years off it airing on TV or VCR sales a couple decades later? YOU'RE being ridiculous if you think thats reasonable. I said before, SW is for kids, and nothing shows that more than the merchandise and the toys and how they kept SW in the public conscious for all those years and across age gaps.

**Lance845**

For sure, the movie being successful is what got more movies being made. You are crazy to discredit the merchandising for doing the bulk of the work though.

Transformers and Ninja Turtles would have never been as popular if they were just shows. And SW only reached it's heights because of toys.

The massive downtime between OT and prequels was fueled 100% by merch. And the resurgence of merch is what fueled everything since the remasters (along with the release of the newer toy line).

**Vulcan**

Lance845 wrote:
Vulcan wrote:

If the fans hadn't gone back to see the movies up to a dozen times each in the theaters, there wouldn't have been funding for the toys in the first place.

Bull crap. George Lucas knew he wanted toys from the beginning. He negotiated his contract from the first movie so that instead of taking a % from sales from the tickets he had major merchandising rights. Lucas's plan was always to produce a massive toy line and other crap and make his mint on that.

Transformers was a TV show designed to sell toys, just like He-man, G.I. Joe, Go Bots, Ninja Turtles, and most everything else from the 80s 90s. George had the fore thought to do that in movie form in the 70s. A much higher production value for a live action movie and special effects, but all designed to sell toys, lunch boxes, bike helmets, holloween costumes, etc etc etc...

The movie was big but it's never left the public consciousness because it was built as a vehicle for a merchandising machine.

You think the movies profits paid for the toys, but the toys is what paid for the Skywalker Ranch, Industrial Light and Magic, and Lucas Film.

This may all be true, but if Star Wars had bombed and not made a profit, no one would have made toys from it. Without the toys, then all the rest never happens as you so correctly point out. But that doesn't mean the toys were guaranteed to happen no matter what.

And if the movie had bombed, no one would have wanted to buy the toys in the first place. Heck, sales of TLJ toys has been notoriously soft, and even I have to admit the movie didn't exactly bomb. Suffer enormously from bad writing and terrible pretense on the part of the director, yes, but not truly bomb.

Consider another sci-fi movie that came out a couple years before Star Wars - Battle Beyond the Stars. It was a sci-fi retelling of the Seven Samurai/The Magnificent Seven. It bombed in the theaters. The characters could have been marketed as action figures, and their ships as toys as well. But because the movie bombed no one bothered doing it.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lance845 wrote:
For sure, the movie being successful is what got more movies being made. You are crazy to discredit the merchandising for doing the bulk of the work though.

Transformers and Ninja Turtles would have never been as popular if they were just shows. And SW only reached it's heights because of toys.

The massive downtime between OT and prequels was fueled 100% by merch. And the resurgence of merch is what fueled everything since the remasters (along with the release of the newer toy line).

I'm not even remotely arguing that.

I'm trying to tell you something even more basic. If the movie had failed, if the fans had not gone to see the movie over and over again, there would have been no toys in the first place.

**Azreal13**

Lance, go ad watch the relevant episode of this

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt7053920/

Then come back and continue the conversation when you've got a better grasp.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Transformers and Ninja Turtles would have never been as popular if they were just shows.

These shows, alongside MASK, MOTU and many more, were literally vehicles to sell toys. You can't argue that they relied on toys to be successful as tv shows when their very existence was designed to sell toys in the first instance.

**Lance845**

Azreal13 wrote:
Lance, go ad watch the relevant episode of this

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt7053920/

Then come back and continue the conversation when you've got a better grasp.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Transformers and Ninja Turtles would have never been as popular if they were just shows.

These shows, alongside MASK, MOTU and many more, were literally vehicles to sell toys. You can't argue that they relied on toys to be successful as tv shows when their very existence was designed to sell toys in the first instance.

Ive already watched the toys that made us. And other docs on SW itself that also talk about their toy line.

I didn't say they were successful AS TV shows. I said they were successful as franchises. Transformers was big. Not the TV show. Transformers. And it wouldn't be half as big without the merch.

**Lance845**

Vulcan wrote:

Spoiler:

Lance845 wrote:
Vulcan wrote:

If the fans hadn't gone back to see the movies up to a dozen times each in the theaters, there wouldn't have been funding for the toys in the first place.

Bull crap. George Lucas knew he wanted toys from the beginning. He negotiated his contract from the first movie so that instead of taking a % from sales from the tickets he had major merchandising rights. Lucas's plan was always to produce a massive toy line and other crap and make his mint on that.

Transformers was a TV show designed to sell toys, just like He-man, G.I. Joe, Go Bots, Ninja Turtles, and most everything else from the 80s 90s. George had the fore thought to do that in movie form in the 70s. A much higher production value for a live action movie and special effects, but all designed to sell toys, lunch boxes, bike helmets, holloween costumes, etc etc etc...

The movie was big but it's never left the public consciousness because it was built as a vehicle for a merchandising machine.

You think the movies profits paid for the toys, but the toys is what paid for the Skywalker Ranch, Industrial Light and Magic, and Lucas Film.

This may all be true, but if Star Wars had bombed and not made a profit, no one would have made toys from it. Without the toys, then all the rest never happens as you so correctly point out. But that doesn't mean the toys were guaranteed to happen no matter what.

And if the movie had bombed, no one would have wanted to buy the toys in the first place. Heck, sales of TLJ toys has been notoriously soft, and even I have to admit the movie didn't exactly bomb. Suffer enormously from bad writing and terrible pretense on the part of the director, yes, but not truly bomb.

Consider another sci-fi movie that came out a couple years before Star Wars - Battle Beyond the Stars. It was a sci-fi retelling of the Seven Samurai/The Magnificent Seven. It bombed in the theaters. The characters could have been marketed as action figures, and their ships as toys as well. But because the movie bombed no one bothered doing it.

I never said the movies were not popular. I am not arguing about if the SW movies have or have not been big successes financially if not critically. What I was arguing was that this amazing run of SW being in the public conscious was not because the movies were some touch stone amazing best thing that has ever existed. It's because clever marketing and a merch line that would not quit kept it in the public conscious long after the movies had run their course. An entire generation (20 years) went by between ANH and the prequels. The movies on their own would NEVER have made that kind of impact on everyone. It's the constant merch that kept it running forever.

Spoiler:

Great. Good for you to say it. I wasn't arguing that. This whole toy kick started when I said it was the merch that kept the whole thing afloat and you guys started going on about how the movies were the greatest and did it all on their own. The movie didn't fail. The merch was made. Spin off movies (Ewok adventures yo!), toy lines, costumes, birthday decorations and plates, lunch boxes, posters, video games.

These things kept it in the public conscious. Not the movies. Without the merch lines SW would be like any other good film from that era. Alien (79) is arguably a much better piece of cinema from that time with other big ground breaking bits in the movie including strong female characters who are not just there for the guys to chase and get captured, and IT hasn't left the public conscious for a lot of the same reasons (though with much smaller releases). The Kenner AvP toy lines, the video games, the comic books. Alien and Predator have far outlived any movie that didn't merchandise because these things kept them running in the down times.

SW isn't any different or exceptional except in the sheer extent and volume of the merch.

**Azreal13**

Lance845 wrote:
Azreal13 wrote:
Lance, go ad watch the relevant episode of this

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt7053920/

Then come back and continue the conversation when you've got a better grasp.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Transformers and Ninja Turtles would have never been as popular if they were just shows.

These shows, alongside MASK, MOTU and many more, were literally vehicles to sell toys. You can't argue that they relied on toys to be successful as tv shows when their very existence was designed to sell toys in the first instance.

Ive already watched the toys that made us. And other docs on SW itself that also talk about their toy line.

I didn't say they were successful AS TV shows. I said they were successful as franchises. Transformers was big. Not the TV show. Transformers. And it wouldn't be half as big without the merch.

If you've watched the show, you'll be familiar with the story of how people were desperate to buy the toys before the toys existed, so the first Christmas Kenner put a pre order pack on sale as they hadn't had sufficient time to get stock into stores, but knew the demand was massive? Or the reason Lucas got the merch rights because the studio didn't value them and thought they were getting a bargain because they got Lucas for cheap as a result (and this probably contributed to the film being greenlit in the first instance.) The reason being that the studio didn't value merchandise rights as prior to ANH they weren't really a thing. SW essentially created the whole concept.

As for the other franchises, I'm still not clear what your point is when you appear to be saying that franchises based on toys were successful because they sold a lot of toys? Surely that's self evident and has no role in supporting your idea that SW toys drove the movie franchise?

**Lance845**

Because starwars is a movie franchise designed to sell toys like Transformers is a cartoon franchise designed to sell toys.

Duh the toys sold well. SW was built from the ground up to sell them even if fox didnt realize it at the time. The argument that sw movies are some lightning in a bottle pieces of film that carried itself solidly in the minds of several generations for 25ish years between releases is mad. The merch is what did all the heavy lifting and carried it.

**Azreal13**

The merch that all but disappeared soon after ROTJ left cinemas, but years later the movies were still so popular that manufacturers revisited the idea and made new stuff, prior to the release, or even announcement, of TPM?

**Lance845**

Azreal13 wrote:
The merch that all but disappeared soon after ROTJ left cinemas, but years later the movies were still so popular that manufacturers revisited the idea and made new stuff, prior to the release, or even announcement, of TPM?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Star_Wars_video_games

1980s

Star Wars: Jedi Arena (1983) Atari 2600
Star Wars: The Arcade Game (1984) Atari 2600
Star Wars: Droids (1988) Amstrad CPC, ZX Spectrum – based on the Star Wars: Droids series
Death Star Interceptor (1985, System 3 Software Ltd) ZX Spectrum, Commodore 64

1990s

Star Wars: Shadows of the Empire (1996) (3rd person shooter) Nintendo 64, Windows
Star Wars: Masters of Teräs Käsi (1997) (Fighting) PlayStation
Star Wars: Yoda Stories (1997) (Adventure) Windows
Star Wars: Rebellion (Star Wars: Supremacy - UK) (1998) (Real-time strategy) Windows
Star Wars Trilogy Arcade (1998) (Rail shooter) Arcade
Star Wars Millennium Falcon CD-Rom Playset (1998) (Rail shooter-adventure) Windows 95-98-Me

Star Wars (1983–88) - Arcade
Re-released for: Atari 2600, Atari 5200, Commodore 64, Atari 8-bit family, ColecoVision, BBC Micro, ZX Spectrum, Acorn Electron, Amstrad CPC, Atari ST, Apple II, DOS, Macintosh, Amiga.
Star Wars (1987) - Famicom
Star Wars: Attack on the Death Star (1991) - PC-9801, X68000
Star Wars (1991–93) - NES, Game Boy, Master System, Game Gear
Super Star Wars (1992) - SNES
Re-released for: Wii Virtual Console, PlayStation 4, PlayStation Vita
Star Wars Arcade (1993) - Arcade
Re-released for: 32X

Star Wars: The Empire Strikes Back (1982) - Atari 2600, Intellivision
Star Wars: The Empire Strikes Back (1985/88) - Arcade

Re-released for: BBC Micro, Commodore 64, ZX Spectrum, Amstrad CPC, Amiga, Atari.

Star Wars: The Empire Strikes Back (1992) - NES, Game Boy
Super Empire Strikes Back (1993) - SNES

Re-released: Wii Virtual Consol

Star Wars: Return of the Jedi – Death Star Battle (1983/84) - Atari 2600, Atari 8-bit family, Atari 5200, ZX Spectrum
Star Wars: Return of the Jedi (1984/88) - Arcade, BBC Micro, Commodore 64, ZX Spectrum, Amstrad CPC, Amiga, Atari ST, GameCube
Super Return of the Jedi (1994) - SNES, Game Boy, Game Gear
Re-released: Wii Virtual Console

Canceled: Star Wars: Return of the Jedi – Ewok Adventure -Atari 2600 (unreleased)

Main article: Star Wars: X-Wing (video game series)
Space simulation

X-Wing (1993) - DOS, Macintosh
Expansion(s): Imperial Pursuit (1993) and B-Wing (1993)

Compilation: X-Wing (Collector's CD-ROM) (1994)

TIE Fighter (1994) - DOS, Macintosh
Expansion(s): Defender of the Empire (1994)

Compilation: TIE Fighter (Collector's CD-ROM) (1995)

Star Wars: X-Wing vs. TIE Fighter (1997) - Windows
Expansions: Balance of Power Campaigns (1997), and Flight School (1998)
X-Wing Alliance (1999) - Windows

Star Wars: Rebel Assault (1993) DOS, Mac, Sega CD, 3DO
Star Wars: Rebel Assault II: The Hidden Empire (1995) DOS, PlayStation Microsoft hello

Star Wars: Dark Forces (1995) DOS, Mac, PlayStation
Star Wars Jedi Knight: Dark Forces II (1997) Windows

Expansion(s): Star Wars Jedi Knight: Mysteries of the Sith (1998) Windows

Star Wars: Rogue Squadron (1998) Windows, Nintendo 64

Hey look. Even if you JUST look at video games, there was SW stuff being produced almost every other year at minimum from the year RotJ was released all the way up until the remasters and the new toy line was produced.

Again, the only thing exceptional about SW was the sheer volume and it's extensiveness.

**Azreal13**

Were you actually alive during the period under discussion, so I can determine how much detail I can take for granted?

Also, simply listing some stuff that was released does nothing to prove your argument that it was this that drove the popularity of the franchise, and wasn't simply a symptom of the enduring popularity of the films.

**Lance845**

Azreal13 wrote:
Were you actually alive during the period under discussion, so I can determine how much detail I can take for granted?

Also, simply listing some stuff that was released does nothing to prove your argument that it was this that drove the popularity of the franchise, and wasn't simply a symptom of the enduring popularity of the films.

I was born before the theatrical release of the film "Aliens" (86) but not before the theatrical release of Alien (79).

You can make educated statements based on comparable evidence. Aliens and Predators have never left the public conscious of their age group either with a steady but nowhere near as extensive release of games, toys, comics, novels and other things to keep it alive between movie releases. But nobody can reasonably argue that Alien or Predator or AvP as a franchise is anywhere near as "big" or "pervasive" as SW. And the reason is both volume and targeting a younger audience (hook them while they're young!) with a product designed for all ages instead of matures.

But I would argue that the first Predator Movie is a better action movie then any of the SW movies and the first Alien movie is a far better Scifi and better movie all around then any of the movies in the SW franchise.

Meanwhile movies with no merch mostly drop entirely to the way side. Flight of the Navigator I maintain is a great movie. Even today. But good luck having anyone think about it in the last couple years. Because nothing exists to remind anyone. Same with Rocketeer and Dick Tracy and etc etc....

SW has been relentless. If something new SW wasn't being released in the next 6 months it was definitely within the next 12. It kept it in every ones mind forever.

**Azreal13**

But you're still failing to prove your core argument that the merchandise drove the success and wasn't simply a consequence of the core material's enduring popularity.

To try and argue demand comes after supply, i.e. if you make it they will buy, goes against basic economy, and while it can be argued as somewhat true in the cases of ardent fandom, to suggest it can be sustained for 40 years without the core property being a significant driver of interest in the stuff, rather than vice versa, is going to require more compelling evidence than you've so far presented.

**Lance845**

Azreal13 wrote:
But you're still failing to prove your core argument that the merchandise drove the success and wasn't simply a consequence of the core material's enduring popularity.

To try and argue demand comes after supply, i.e. if you make it they will buy, goes against basic economy, and while it can be argued as somewhat true in the cases of ardent fandom, to suggest it can be sustained for 40 years without the core property being a significant driver of interest in the stuff, rather than vice versa, is going to require more compelling evidence than you've so far presented.

Likewise, if you think SW is the one and only historical example that has completely pervaded all age groups and many generations day in and day out for over 40 years you are going to need to provide some kind of evidence that the 2 1/2 really good movies in the OT are capable of causing that kind of effect on their own despite a massive EU that is 70-90% total crap, a prequel trilogy that by all reason should have sent the entire thing crashing and burning to the ground, and now the super divisive new trilogy being released.

The movies are not that good. It goes against all reason that SW is as big as it is considering the actual track record of the SW movies. EVEN if you include the other live action bits not in the core 8 movies (Ewok Adventure and the x mas special (The x mas special! How the feth did SW survive!))

The truth is SW is mostly garbage. But it's a garbage that takes it's best bits and makes sure you can never get away from them. SW track record in video games is far more reliable for quality then live action or animated film. You really think the OT is responsible for keeping it in the public conscious when Super Empire, Super RotJ, Dark Forces, Jedi Knight, Knight of the Old Republic, X-Wing, Tie Fighter, Shadows of the Empire were being released for people to play through?

**BobtheInquisitor**

Even your chart shows a ten year gap between product lines. I remember those days, when Star Wars toys were nowhere to be found, but the demeand was still there because the movies were still popular, airing on television frequently. It wasn't until the 90's that they realized how under-supplied the Star Wars market was, and bam! Novels, Games, Power of the Force, Micromachines, Shadows of the Empire. Those didn't sustain Star Wars, they leached off of its surprisingly enduring popularity.

Really, I bought Aliens toys before I ever saw Aliens, but that is no reason to conclude that Aliens merchandise is the only reason people still care about Aliens.

**Lance845**

BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Even your chart shows a ten year gap between product lines. I remember those days, when Star Wars toys were nowhere to be found, but the demeand was still there because the movies were still popular, airing on television frequently. It wasn't until the 90's that they realized how under-supplied the Star Wars market was, and bam! Novels, Games, Power of the Force, Micromachines, Shadows of the Empire. Those didn't sustain Star Wars, they leached off of its surprisingly enduring popularity.

Really, I bought Aliens toys before I ever saw Aliens, but that is no reason to conclude that Aliens merchandise is the only reason people still care about Aliens.

The list I copied and pasted from wikipedia is things I only copied and pasted from the year RotJ released until the year the remasters were being released. There is more. And there is no 10 year gap. It's just the part thats relevant to Az's comment.

I never said the merch was the "ONLY " reason people care about SW. I said it did all the heavy lifting to keep it in the public conscious during the long lull between theatrical releases. Your experience with Alien toys isn't much different from an entire generations experience with SW. The only difference is scale and volume.

**trexmeyer**

I was born in 88 and saw the OT and read some books long before I had any SW toys...IIRC I didn't have any outside of makeshift Legos I threw together prior to the SW Lego release. I think the only franchise toys I had were Transformers and I don't care about that all anymore. So the suggestion that kids grew up with the toys being the only reason they know SW is imperfect.

@Killkrazy the point I'm getting is then why be so invested? I read and owned all the HP books. I watched 3 of the movies, hated them, and refuse to waste a second of my life ever watching the rest. Ended up donating the books because I have no intention of reading them again. I haven't seen the Fantastic Beasts movies and won't. I know next to nothing about the secondary merchandise. Sure, the books were good, but that's it.

We could even bring GoT into this discussion in that I love the books. They have their flaws, but as a whole the world is brilliantly imagined. Meanwhile GoT season 6 suffered from atrocious writing. I'll continue to watch the show, and likely be disappointed, but why would I let that impact my enjoyment of the books?

The quality of any new SW content shouldn't impact whether or not anyone enjoys the OT. I never watched Rebels or Clone Wars and frankly don't care. I've heard they're decent. Great, but they could be complete rot and it wouldn't impact my enjoyment of parts of the series I like.

Star Wars is suffering from the same issues that eventually hit all media franchises. It's a combination of over saturation, crass commercialism, and a thematic departure from the OT. Star Trek had the exact same issue and is continuing to experience it. While I do like TOS up to most of Voyager I can't deny that the latter series (and even the TOS films) fail capture the elements that made TOS great. Especially DS9, even though it is my favorite of the series. I could go into more detail on the issues, but I think that it is outside the scope of this thread.

In Star Wars' case it is worse (well maybe...the reboot movies aren't great and Discovery is terrible) because 7 was little more than a rehash of ANH and that hack of a director Abrams asked a bunch of questions that he had no intention to answer.

TLDR: The impact of Star Wars merchandise is probably exaggerated and the quality of sequels shouldn't impact your own enjoyment of the OT.

**Lance845**

trexmeyer wrote:

The quality of any new SW content shouldn't impact whether or not anyone enjoys the OT. I never watched Rebels or Clone Wars and frankly don't care. I've heard they're decent. Great, but they could be complete rot and it wouldn't impact my enjoyment of parts of the series I like.

This bit I 100% agree with.

The people who says "such and such is ruining my childhood" are saying the dumbest thing in the world. Your child hood is still there. Go watch it. The thing you like didn't go away because they made something new.

**Voss**

KTG17 wrote:
ZebioLizard2 wrote:
and the toy sales are abysmal for a Star Wars film.

I think toy play habits among kids has really changed over the years. Toys R Us going out of business is a testament to that..

It isn't even vaguely. Toys'R'Us going out of business has nothing to do with sales- they were bought out years ago, saddled with ridiculous debt by their new parent company ($5 billion) and left to twist in the wind.

http://www.businessinsider.com/why-toys-r-us-is-closing-stores-2018-3

**Manchu**

As someone who spent years of his childhood digging around flea markets and yard sales to find SW toys to play with, I can tell you guys that (at least in the US) this was the only way to get them from about 1988 through 1994 (when SW MicroMachines came out). Kenner was purchased by Hasbro in the early 90s but there were no three and three quarters SW figs until 1995. The whole thing, especially Shadows of the Empire (a movie licensing event minus the movie - it even had a soundtrack!) was, in hindsight, pretty clearly a run up ... and probably a funding track for ... the prequel trilogy.

For the whole time I was young enough to play with toys, there were no SW action figures available at toy stores. (The '95 Power of the Force release was just past when I lost interest in toys ... I saved up to get all of Wave 1 but never took them out of their blisters!) Nonetheless, the toys were so compelling to me that I amassed a fairly large collection as a younger kid of the old toys, buying them for a nickel or a quarter or so a fig from parents cleaning out their empty nests.

We did not have a VCR until they became affordable for the masses and it must have been 93 or 94 before we had the trilogy on VHS. Of course I watched them until they all but broke. But by then I was already firmly a huge SW fan, despite SW being missing from the mass assault on children from toy advertisers. Other kids my age did not care about Star Wars, generally speaking.

**dogma**

Lance845 wrote:

The value of a collectable has to go through some weird gak to reach high values like your talking about that has nothing to do with how iconic the franchise is.

I think it does. The 1988 Turtles Party Wagon, with all the Turtles, goes for ~80 USD on Ebay. About the only thing Turtle related that's worth any money is the SNES Turtles in Time, and that's because it's a great game.

Conversely, I just sold an untested copy of N64 Star Wars Racer for 75 USD at my parents' garage sale.