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Not for a full scale wargame,

but other than that keep doing the licencing for the rpg & computer game stuff (and perhaps novels if anybody wants to play around with the old world)

Third party is the only way to go, I'm afraid. From a creative perspective, it's more limited than the Mortal Realms, and in terms of marketing, I think it would look pretty bad for them to take a step back and admit that there's enough of a market for a line that they killed to still be viable enough to return to.

Even Mordheim seems unlikely. Shadespire is their small-scale fantasy combat game now, and can easily synergize with the high fantasy factions of AoS that just couldn't exist in an Old World low fantasy setting.

 Easy E wrote:
Forgeworld should do it like the Horus Heresy, Blood Bowl, etc.

That might not be a bad idea.

My fear is that having two fantasy games would lead to both being mediocre. AoS has a chance to keep growing into its own thing, and as others have said WFB had it's day.

Yes, definitely yes! Sigmar so far has been complete garbage to me. Both fluff and rules wise.

And I really tried. I tried reading it when it was just released, but I just could not stand the idiocy and blandness of it.

I later tried when they launched this whole Malign Portents thing. But then again, it was so cringy I closed the book after several pages. I just can not plaay/read fluff that has "aelves", "duardin", "fyreslyers" with a straight, non cringe face.

 LunarSol wrote:
No. As a fantasy setting, the old world was probably a little more grounded and ripe for meaningful storytelling, but it was also limiting. The new world is pretty fantastic from an artistic perspective and while its definitely more gamey, it really lets them create and push themselves as a modeling company. I've long felt that limiting ourselves to the Tolkien asthetic is kind of defeating of the purpose of fantasy. I'm much happier to see them free to get as fantastic as possible.

Leaving aside whether or not that argument holds any merit(it doesn't, IMO) - the only people who decided doing one had to mean getting rid of the other was GW. GW can decide to do both again just as easily.

Destroying the WHF setting was an act of vandalism, pure and simple. Whether because they didn't believe AoS in its initial under-developed form could stand up next to WHF, or some bean-counter insisted they "wrap up" the old IP completely to drive people across to the new one, or if the guys running the studio are just genuinely so oblivious in their little bubble that they couldn't fathom that just because they were no longer capable of appreciating the setting didn't mean everyone else was suffering the same deficiency doesn't matter, it was unnecessary and hugely disrespectful not just to the fanbase but also all the people who contributed to that setting over the years.

If they absolutely, positively, just had to move on to something else for business reasons or because they wanted "to get as fantastic as possible" that would be one thing, but they didn't just sell the house and move, they burned it down. They could build a new one just as easily, AoS is so far removed from WHF that disconnecting them entirely would barely impact the former at all, and even if they insisted on maintaining the pointless "no this is the future of WHF super-serial" position when it comes to AoS, there's no reason it has to be tied to the End Times as they were sharted out a few years ago - WHF was always a "minutes to midnight" world, so there's no reason you have to specifically detail exactly what happens when the clock actually chimes.

So yes, damn right they should bring back the WHF setting, it's the least they can do after pissing the End Times on us and telling us it was rain, and those bloody insulting joke rules they put out for WHF armies when AoS launched.

I think some of you guys misunderstand me. I don't mean to can AoS, or to even set up WHFB redux as a flagship game.

Yes KoW exists. I have it. Yes, 9th Age exists. But neither is of benefit to GW. One is a competitor, and the other is proof positive that people so like your game, they are willing to continue it on without your help. I mean, can you think of a better endorsement than that?

And bases as an issue? Really? Create trays for round bases and adjust unit counts / measurements accordingly. Problem solved. (We solved the problem, everything is awesome! Problem solved!)

Who will write the rules? Well, 9th age proves that the community will write the rules for you for free. They could go with a kind of cooperative feedback design that was used to create Dungeons and Dragons 5th edition. The market has shifted away from purchasing rules anyways. Create an online living rule-book, and make bank selling novels, minis, lorebooks, etc.

And as far as the minis go, unless they destroyed the molds, they can do a run of the old minis. That they don't match the current AoS aesthetic is a feature, not a bug. People like retro old stuff they didn't get to experience the first time.

Keeping WH shuttered up is leaving money on the table IMO.

Yes they should

Yes.

I am very much enjoying aos but I do think they should bring back the old world at some point, after all they are already doing old world adjacent stuff with bloodbowl.
I don't think that they should just bring back the old game though.
For me there are three possibilities
1- mordheim
2- warmaster
Or
3- a game set during the war of the beard as a kind of fantasy version of the Horus Heresy.
I do think they will wait though. Every new battletome gets a little dribble of people to convert over and start playing Aos. I have seen a lot if people in Facebook saying that the upcoming nighthaunt release will make them start playing aos. The upcoming moonclan, Slaanesh and light elves releases will get a few more warhammer players over.
Meanwhile the specialist studio has got its hands full with Necromunda, bloodbowl and Titanicus.
2019 will see BFG arrive so the earliest we could expect something is 2020.

A Mordheim release in late 2020 would be ideal. Bloodbowl will have 18 plastic teams by then! That game could take a back seat and do conversion packs to make mordheim gangs into more teams, Mordheim could then take centre stage.

I think this release powered by nostalgia could be huge for GW.

tneva82 wrote:

 judgedoug wrote:

They were bleeding money before when they were actively supporting it.. To relaunch a mass battles game would cause an even larger amount of cash to be wasted in design, development, sculpting, release, and cause focus to be lost from their core lines.

You have any evidence that top3 seliing miniature game was losing money? Especially when it doesn't account for all gw's expenses.

When aos design was started it was still top3 miniature game. No wonder sales then fell with not much releases when most of model sales comes in first few months.

Probiem was they didn#t sell space marine levels and kirby thinks anything that doesn't sell that much sells badly

The funniest thing is that AOS has not cracked the last ICv2 ranking top 5 once again, while WHFB was pretty much always there bar at the very end. TherE's not a lot to suggest that AOS is selling better than WHFB was.


As for the question, while I think that killing off the OW was a terrible mistake, and I'll always prefer it to these globe things setting, I'm not sure that bringing it back is the way to go. GW has a lot of work to with with the AOS setting.

Icv2 has always been an extremely poor metric for judging success. It does not include GW stores or online sales which we know from GW results account for almost two thirds of their sales. It doesn't give numbers. 4 of the top 5 games didn't exist during fantasy's best periods. It also only covers north America where Sci fi is king.

The only data we have is that GW has been doing extremely well recently.
Also a public company like GW does not double down on a failing product line. The aos playerbase is clearly still growing.
You only have to look at the increasing number of posts on this forum about starting aos in the last six months.
This is why they will not bring back the old world in near future. It would stall some of the growth that Aos is showing.

Chikout wrote:
Icv2 has always been an extremely poor metric for judging success. It does not include GW stores or online sales which we know from GW results account for almost two thirds of their sales. It doesn't give numbers. 4 of the top 5 games didn't exist during fantasy's best periods. It also only covers north America where Sci fi is king.

The only data we have is that GW has been doing extremely well recently.
Also a public company like GW does not double down on a failing product line. The aos playerbase is clearly still growing.
You only have to look at the increasing number of posts on this forum about starting aos in the last six months.
This is why they will not bring back the old world in near future. It would stall some of the growth that Aos is showing.

That is simply not true. A common mistake that is seen in every type of company is what is called the escalation of commitment. There is numerous management studies/articles on the subject. And while it is true that ICv2 is far from a perfect metric to judge the popularity of a game, it is still the best one by far (a lot more reliable than the number of posts about starting the game).

I agree with you on why GW shouldn't bring back the OW (even if personally, I would be happy if they did). AOS would suffer a lot if it was reintroduced, and there probably would be a lot of cannibalisation between the 2 games

Yes, including square bases and regimented style combat the way the game SHOULD BE.

The biggest loss of the Old World (to me!) is the loss of the world itself, the fluff and cool factions. At first glance it was "just" medieval knights and landsknechts with puffy sleeves against demons and undead and elves. But as simple as that it, it really worked. And had an abundance of charm.

Nothing about AoS is appealing to me, the new factions suck, stormcasts marines and fish elves are all silly.

So basically GW lost a customer in me. And if I were them I would go back to include the old world in a game again. I know the era of square bases and huge regiments is gone, but I would go with round bases on movement trays so diehards could use square still. And do regimented combat with movement trays and not just single models. This allow for smaller size units of 4-16 models opposed to the up to 100 in the old game.

GW is missing out. "Total War: Warhammer" is a huge success but the miniature game and its lore is gone. And has only been replaced by the competition.

GW should really use their miniatures line to accomodate those that love the old world and old fantasy.

I do love the idea of the Old World being "legend" or "myth" - lets them still do things with it if they like. I think GW is even thinking along these lines with the way they've been branding some of the limited time re-releases of old models.

 RiTides wrote:
I do love the idea of the Old World being "legend" or "myth" - lets them still do things with it if they like. I think GW is even thinking along these lines with the way they've been branding some of the limited time re-releases of old models.

It's called the World That Was, so yeah...it's legend/myth.

Personally--I don't want the Old World back. Them being wishywashy and bringing it back is, IMO, cowtowing to the whiners. Just let it go, move things into the Realms and if people want to say their games were in the Old World that's fine--not like the Old World didn't have jungles, mountains, steppes, oceans, etc.

That would earn them more of my money again if new releases are incoming.

The Old World is still around in an important sense: none of the current competitors after Warhammer fantasy has attained the mass of brilliant and wacky quality background for a fantasy smörgåsbord that captured our imagination and ran away with it, as WHFB did. Although we're all more likely to give alternative settings a chance the more time goes by in this era where Warhammer no longer is the monolithic dominant it once was (and is only semi-officially supported via PC games and so on), most of us silll play various games with models from various producers, with the Old World firmly in our heads. The legacy of Warhammer Fantasy still runs strong and fresh, but it will wane apart from in areas given new life, such as Warhammer Total War.

AoS seems to do decently and 40k remains GW's big cash cow. Resurrecting the Old World properly isn't necessary for Games Workshop, but it might earn them new sales from some former customers, and not least mark territory to pre-empt rivals in the classic fantasy massed miniature wargame niche they up until recently dominated. But the djinn is already out of the bottle, there.

How many people bought Total War: Warhammer, I'm sure it was several million? Probably a lot more than the number of people who even know what AoS is.

It's a massive franchise - as long as Sega keep releasing those games the Old World will live on.


It's a shame that GW didn't have the confidence in AoS to keep even a classic version of WHFB running alongside the new game. I know that really, really upset a lot of people who were heavily invested in the game and attending events to do with it. That was a really callous move, so it would be nice if it returned in some form or another, even for the sake of customer goodwill.

Yes. It would be nice for them to have the guts to stand up and admit to making a mistake and it would probably do more good than anything.

I was about a quarter way typing out a response to that, but then I realised I've had the exact same argument at least two dozen times with either trolls or people who genuinely can't understand it. And then I lost the energy to be bothered. Perhaps Kan or someone can be bothered to give a full answer.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pm713 wrote:
Yes. It would be nice for them to have the guts to stand up and admit to making a mistake and it would probably do more good than anything.

Man, I wish I could be making the sort of money they are by making such a mistake

 Togusa wrote:

 Easy E wrote:
Forgeworld should do it like the Horus Heresy, Blood Bowl, etc.

That might not be a bad idea.

My fear is that having two fantasy games would lead to both being mediocre. AoS has a chance to keep growing into its own thing, and as others have said WFB had it's day.

It would actually give thema chanc eto scale it back abit and carve out some of the bloat and focus on the core of the game.

 Easy E wrote:

It would actually give them a chance to scale it back abit and carve out some of the bloat and focus on the core of the game.

What do you think is too "bloated" about AoS that wouldn't be for a WFB return?

It'd be nice to see it return in some fashion. The made to order legends line is a nice acknowledgement.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Personally--I don't want the Old World back. Them being wishywashy and bringing it back is, IMO, cowtowing to the whiners. Just let it go, move things into the Realms and if people want to say their games were in the Old World that's fine--not like the Old World didn't have jungles, mountains, steppes, oceans, etc.

Cowtowing to whiners? I take umbrage with this. I'd call it meeting your customer demands. If there's a demand for WHFB product, square bases and all, why shouldn't GW meet it?

If they aren't buying from you.. Are they actually customers?

 Kanluwen wrote:

 RiTides wrote:
I do love the idea of the Old World being "legend" or "myth" - lets them still do things with it if they like. I think GW is even thinking along these lines with the way they've been branding some of the limited time re-releases of old models.

It's called the World That Was, so yeah...it's legend/myth.

Personally--I don't want the Old World back. Them being wishywashy and bringing it back is, IMO, cowtowing to the whiners. .

Oh, like plastic sisters and Squats?
Or, perhaps, giving guardsmen sergeants lasguns?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
If they aren't buying from you.. Are they actually customers?

A company should try to attract customers. If bringing back the old world in same way and bringing about close order combat will get those customers, then logically they should do it.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
If they aren't buying from you.. Are they actually customers?

Potential customers for arguments sake. Point still stands. If there's a demand, which they'll get a hint of via e-mails, the recent customer survey, etc, shouldn't they try to meet it?

From a sales perspective I think Fantasy was dead long before they mercy killed it.

Personally I love AoS. I dig the ridiculous He-Man aesthetic and the gameplay.

I know a lot of old timers loathed it but I've had more new people jump in since the change than there ever was before it.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 RiTides wrote:
I do love the idea of the Old World being "legend" or "myth" - lets them still do things with it if they like. I think GW is even thinking along these lines with the way they've been branding some of the limited time re-releases of old models.

It's called the World That Was, so yeah...it's legend/myth.

Personally--I don't want the Old World back. Them being wishywashy and bringing it back is, IMO, cowtowing to the whiners. .

Oh, like plastic sisters and Squats?
Or, perhaps, giving guardsmen sergeants lasguns?

So a faction, a dead army that's older than most posters, and a kit option that is present in the box but got yanked several editions ago for stupid reasons is your rebuttal?

Yeah. I'm big on whining about giving Guard Sergeants Lasguns. It's a stupid design flaw that was based upon some nonsense relating to the argument that "Not every Guard army could reasonably do it" because of the old metal models(read: old old stock that could be proxied easily thanks to there being generic Lasgun models. ) that negatively impacts the army in my opinion.

That's not really the same thing as just retconning your entire new system/setting because people can't be bothered to read the fluff and realize that effectively you can have the same damn army and background as you had before, just in a new setting.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
If they aren't buying from you.. Are they actually customers?

A company should try to attract customers. If bringing back the old world in same way and bringing about close order combat will get those customers, then logically they should do it.

A company should try to attract customers, but the 'customers' you're arguing about wouldn't be buying anything new anyways.

 Kanluwen wrote:


Yeah. I'm big on whining about giving Guard Sergeants Lasguns. It's a stupid design flaw that was based upon some nonsense relating to the argument that "Not every Guard army could reasonably do it" because of the old metal models(read: old old stock that could be proxied easily thanks to there being generic Lasgun models. ) that negatively impacts the army in my opinion.

That's not really the same thing as just retconning your entire new system/setting because people can't be bothered to read the fluff and realize that effectively you can have the same damn army and background as you had before, just in a new setting.

I didn't say anything about retconning. I don't want AOS gone. I just want the Old World back..
And its not the same background. Lizardmen aren't lizardmen anymore. They don't get birthed in spawning pools anymore, do they? They are more like memories now. Which is fine. Its an interesting concept, just not the one I bought into.
Please explain where the Empire and Bretonnians are. Because if its the same army with the same background, then surely they would be available?
Also, how is it that whining about the removal of a kit option is acceptable but not whining about a game system that one invested time and money into?

People whined about plastic sisters, and they got them
People whined about squats, and they got one.
How is "kowtowing to those whiners", in your words, ok, but not to demands for the Old World?
Logically, you should against plastic sisters and that squat character as well, as that was due to "kowtowing to whiners"

As to your point about customers - how do you know that they won't, with certainty, buy anything new?

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
If they aren't buying from you.. Are they actually customers?

I bought every single WHFB novel printed up until the end times. (Well, except Deathmaster Snitch because I never saw it in the store and the price was bananas on Amazon.). I was prepared to buy their adventure game book only to find out they had stopped selling it POD. I am a WHF customer. If I am not buying anything now, it's because they aren't selling what I want to buy any more.