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2018/06/04 19:12:05
Subject: Anita Sarkeesian to be an "Industry Guest of Honor" at GenCon 2018?
Then anxiety or not, and benign as it may be, that’s pretty sexist, because you’re adjusting your behaviour based on gender.
And helping you out is part of feminism. It’s not ‘burn all the mens’, but ‘bring about the end of toxic masculinity,
What do I mean by toxic masculinity? The concept that if you don’t do X, look like Y and behave like Z, you’re somehow not a ‘proper’ man.
And I’m speaking as a well built (if slightly tubby) 6’2” Horror with a thick head of hair and no problem growing a beard. I’ve never had to work on this. I simply am. Indeed, I’d go so far as to say that barring a short period of brainless racism when I moved from Scotland to England, I’ve never encountered actual, genuine discrimination. I can walk down the road, any time of day or night, and be left alone. I can happily square up to someone, and have them respect me for it - even though I’m really a tremendous wuss and wimp. Indeed, I’m a tall, fairly handsome, well built, heterosexual white bloke in my native country with a good career going. There’s nobody silently judging or trying to second guess me. I’ve never had to justify myself or fight against a prejudice.
I also have social anxiety, believe it or not. And I’m not about to Misery Measure, because we are who we are. Yours affects you in a different way than mine does me.
But if you feel anxious because you’re not some chiselled, brainless hunk you see on your telly getting all the girls - that’s toxic masculinity. And if that’s the case, you’re a victim, not a perpetrator or propagator.
Look at Male/female suicide rates in the Western World. Here’s a hint, Young Men as disproportionately more likely to kill themselves. That’s a genuine statistical truth. Go google it, you’ll find plenty.
Men are, societally, discouraged from speaking about their feelings, worries, woes and stress. It tends to be seen as non-masculine, a weakness. And it’s a fething outrage.
Now, here’s a confession for you. New Year, 2014, I was raped. By a woman. She kind of attached herself to me in the pub, and like a drunken fool, she came back to my hotel room. Not because I wanted to shag her, but because she had nowhere else to go. She came on to me, I rebuffed her. Sadly, the morning wood fairy paid me a visit, and I awoke to her riding the giggle stick without protection. Now, me? As much as I had the sense to go get myself checked out ASAP (all clear, thankfully), but thanks to Toxic Masculinity, I didn’t feel able to report it to the Police. Not because I was afraid they wouldn’t believe me - but because I feared a counter accusation. As mentioned, I’m 6’2”and fairly well built. She was no more than 5’2”. If there was a counter accusation? I’d risk losing everything.
That’s not right. And that’s something feminism also seeks to address.
And here’s a fun fact for you! Under English Law (at least at the time, it may have changed since, but I don’t think it has), she didn’t, legally speaking rape me. It’s instead defined as ‘sexual assault’....see what I mean about Toxic Masculinity? Because that leads into societal and largely indoctrinated sexism.
No, that's YOUR interpretation of feminism. Anita Sarkeesian has a different opinion to you probably and so would Germaine Greer who would disagree with you both then Christina Hoff Sommers would wade in and tell you that you're ALL wrong. The problem is that feminism is not a defined set of principles and everone has different opinions on what it means. Thats why people have things like TERF feminists and radical feminists and pro and anti sex feminists.
2018/06/04 19:30:18
Subject: Anita Sarkeesian to be an "Industry Guest of Honor" at GenCon 2018?
I was just sharing a story man. But yes, people acting awkward and weird around you, because of your gender, is certainly a sign of inequality. (And yes, there are certainly places where the staff will act weird if a man walks in.)
Yes. But this is called being socially awkward, or having social anxiety.
I don't see how having a legitimate psychological problem that has nothing to do with harassment, sexism, or inequality has to do with those things at all.
It might 'just be a story' but look at what you're trying to imply by telling us 'a story'.
Since when does having social anxiety equate to being sexist? Or treating the opposite gender with inequality?
Social awkwardness can lead to 'feeling a weird' vibe, but it's far from not being treated as an equal.
I think there has been a shift in what is accepted as harassment and sexism, and in some instances that bar has been lowered to the point of making the terms almost meaningless.
What I mean is that feelings of harassment are sometimes taken as valid even if no "actual" harassment took place. Polonius' example is perfect in that his girlfriend felt "something" when she walked into the GW and from her perspective labeled it as one thing (sexism, inequality, whatever) based on her own hang ups and perceptions of the individuals in that store. Nothing harassing happened as indicated by Polonius expect everyone got quiet, but from the girlfriend's perspective she was being treated differently because of her gender. What is being ignored are other possible explanations for the treatment she received, and social awkwardness is a good potential explanation. But for the woman involved, the feeling in the store was impactful enough that she noticed it, commented on it, and now has a story of being singled out for her gender in a male space. Fair or not, true or not, her impression is enough truth on the matter.
Similar things have cropped up in the #MeToo movement. The big one being the Aziz Ansari incident, and more recently the reversal of claims against George Takei, where impressions and feelings were enough to publicly drag individuals through the mud without ever verifying the veracity of the claims, or simply resorting to the accusers' word as good enough. That is even a major element of #MeToo, which is to always believe the victim no matter what. Such one-sided credibility is problematic for me, because women aren't automatically bastions of ethical behavior simply because they have two X chromosomes. Women are humans, and humans are lying pieces of gak sometimes, especially if there is something to gain. So outright acceptance of any claim of harassment or assault is intellectually problematic, but if you don't nod and give lip service to such demands then you are seen as a backwards pig.
Another example is an otherwise nuanced examination of harassment and the varying levels of it, but it still falls into the same trap of automatically believing a woman because she is a woman.
Janci Patterson wrote:There are men (and women) who are predators, who have committed assault and other things that cannot be made up for by a mere apology. There are those who need to face consequences in their workplaces, who need to lose their jobs, who need to face legal consequences, who need to be ejected from organizations and institutions to keep others safe.
But there are also a lot of men who have absorbed, unintentionally, a culture of misogyny. A culture that not only accepts and encourages but celebrates toxic masculinity and the degradation of women. These men make mistakes, sometimes terrible ones. These mistakes have consequences, sometimes terrible ones.
But we cannot (and, I believe, should not) jail and fire every man who has ever victimized a woman by sexually harassing her. Because it’s nearly all of them. Because what we need is not punishment, but change. What we need is sorrow, and remorse, and acknowledgement, and repentance.
Guys, this is how it’s done. If a woman tells you you have wronged her, admit that you did it, and apologize. If a friend tells you you have wronged another person, admit that you did it, and apologize. Do this even if you think it’s being blown out of proportion. Do this even if you feel defensive. Do this especially when you feel defensive. Do this without qualification. Do it as gently and politely as possible. And above all, do it sincerely.
That blog is worth a read, and I agree with most of what she is saying, but the red bits are ridiculous because they are sexist towards men. One group isn't automatically right and their complaints aren't automatically worthy of validation just because they are/have been historically oppressed. It is too much of a swing in the other direction, ironically creating inequality as a result.
And as for men being brought up in a culture misogyny, that knife cuts both ways which makes this line of reasoning so infuriating for me. Women have just as much of a hand in enforcing social norms as men, which means the culture of misogyny is not simply a matter of men turning boys into monsters, but a concerted effort by society as a whole to produce men who act and behave in a certain way.
2018/06/04 19:32:44
Subject: Anita Sarkeesian to be an "Industry Guest of Honor" at GenCon 2018?
Shame there’s those trying to paint all feminists as cut from the same cloth....
TERF can particularly do one so far as I’m concerned. If you’re against bigotry and exclusionist nonsenses, you don’t get to cherry pick.
Now, some may try to paint my exception and repeated stand against the Far Right as some kind of hypocrisy there. Except it’s not. I stand up to them just I stand up to TERF and genuine man-hating ‘if ones bad, they’re all bad’ feminists for the same reasons. You can’t pick on example (however horrific) and claim it’s representative.
Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?
Formosa wrote:
It says he is not willing to take some random fellas word for it on the internet, you can try to turn it into something else but that is the long and short of it, and given that you still have not supplied the requested proof that sexism is as common and rampant as you implied in the UK, then I can see why he wouldn’t take your word for it.
You're literally shouting up for someone whose first response to hearing about sexual harassment was 'WELL WHAT ABOUT THOSE LYING VAIN CHICKS, EH?' And yet you're still claiming sexual discrimination and harassment isn't common.
Formosa. You are the evidence.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Do you act differently around women?...
Have an exalt. You know what's up.
Rodger, so you have no evidence for you claim of rampant sexism within the UK and given your responses so far I can happily disregard everything you have said on the subject.
But i am a fair man so I will give you another chance, prove what you are saying or stop spreading false information.
For clarity of others, sexism clearly happens in the UK, where me and katara disagree is that he is claiming that it’s everywhere and happens all the time, where as I state that it’s a rare occasion and not nearly as common as he is claiming.
2018/06/04 19:40:32
Subject: Anita Sarkeesian to be an "Industry Guest of Honor" at GenCon 2018?
Of course. I also act differently around my friends than strangers. I act differently with my parents. I act differently with my wife depending on if we are alone or if the children are in the room. Heck, I act differently around children than I do adults. I act differently on Dakka than I do on the other forums I frequent. I act differently because different situations require it. Because I don't curse in front of children, does that make me ageist? Because I hold the door open just a little bit earlier for handicapped people, does that make me ableist? You can't just single out one thing and act that it is the ONLY important thing that matters.
But if you feel anxious because you’re not some chiselled, brainless hunk you see on your telly getting all the girls - that’s toxic masculinity. And if that’s the case, you’re a victim, not a perpetrator or propagator.
Again, you are over simplifying something that is very complex. There are hundreds, if not millions, of pressures around you. The pressure to do well in school, the pressure to perform well at work, the pressure to perform well in bed, the pressure to sit through your children's plays and act like it wasn't cringy, the pressure to seem smart and capable in internet discussions, and so on.
You find out your best friend is cheating on his girlfriend. Do you rat on him because what he is doing is immoral and unloyal, do you tell him that you know and give him a chance to make it right, or do you keep it a secret because he's your best mate and mates stick together? There's pressure everywhere, and learning how to navigate those pressures (or succumb to them) is a part of growing up and becoming mature. Is there pressure to be manly? Sure, but you'll face far worse in your life.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/04 19:52:06
2018/06/04 19:52:13
Subject: Anita Sarkeesian to be an "Industry Guest of Honor" at GenCon 2018?
My rationale? Until she asks a direct question, I’m not actually lying. Because she was my friend as well. Didn’t want to drop him in the gak, or be the one to break her heart.
In the end, friendship destroyed. Still feel I did the right thing in an impossible situation.
Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?
But i am a fair man so I will give you another chance, prove what you are saying or stop spreading false information.
Guv, I'm not going to try and prove the earth is round for you. If you want an education, there's enough institutes across the country, and the internet is right there if you fancy doing a little research on your own. Though given that you've yet to see the proof you're after despite staring right at it, I'm not sure what good it would do you. Pay me, and I might consider writing you a monograph, but otherwise, monotonously repeating a demand for one isn't going to get you anywhere. It's certainly not going to make anyone with half a clue think you have a point. I've already quite happily watched mine being made by your and AD's answers.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/06/04 19:54:34
2018/06/04 19:52:53
Subject: Anita Sarkeesian to be an "Industry Guest of Honor" at GenCon 2018?
Off you pop and look it up for yourself. No. Infowars and 4chan are not acceptable sources, on account of being gobshites.
Lack of woman in top jobs has many many factors involved, of which sexism may be one, it’s dishonest to claim that it’s only because of sexism.
The ongoing concept that some jobs are for woman and men also is down to many many factors too, of which sexism can be one.
The gender pay gap also affects men, it is also explained by many many factors that again get ignored, I am sure you have done your research on the subject and are aware of the many studies that have shown other factors than sexism are involved, in a few rare occasions it’s down to sex.
Simply claiming that all of these are down to just sexism is wrong.
2018/06/04 19:55:04
Subject: Anita Sarkeesian to be an "Industry Guest of Honor" at GenCon 2018?
My rationale? Until she asks a direct question, I’m not actually lying. Because she was my friend as well. Didn’t want to drop him in the gak, or be the one to break her heart.
In the end, friendship destroyed. Still feel I did the right thing in an impossible situation.
See? You just experienced toxic friendship.
Edit: See how stupid that sounds?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/04 19:59:19
2018/06/04 19:56:46
Subject: Anita Sarkeesian to be an "Industry Guest of Honor" at GenCon 2018?
But i am a fair man so I will give you another chance, prove what you are saying or stop spreading false information.
Guv, I'm not going to try and prove the earth is round for you. If you want an education, there's enough institutes across the country, and the internet is right there if you fancy doing a little research on your own. Though given that you've yet to see the proof you're after despite staring right at it, I'm not sure what good it would do you. Pay me, and I might consider writing you a monograph, but otherwise, repeating a demand for one isn't going to get you anywhere. It's certainly not going to make anyone with half a clue think you have a point.
More diversion tactics katara.... so you can’t prove your WRONG statement, you made an assertion that you cannot prove using anecdotal evidence and tried to pass it off as the truth for everyone else, can’t admit your wrong eh... that “toxic masculinity” kicking in is it
2018/06/04 20:01:24
Subject: Anita Sarkeesian to be an "Industry Guest of Honor" at GenCon 2018?
More diversion tactics katara.... so you can’t prove your WRONG statement, you made an assertion that you cannot prove using anecdotal evidence and tried to pass it off as the truth for everyone else, can’t admit your wrong eh... that “toxic masculinity” kicking in is it
Whatever makes you sleep better tonight, champ.
2018/06/04 20:02:10
Subject: Anita Sarkeesian to be an "Industry Guest of Honor" at GenCon 2018?
To be fair, my wife in no way felt that the boys in the GW shop were sexist. She was mostly laughing at them as guys that clearly don't interact with a ton of women.
2018/06/04 20:02:52
Subject: Anita Sarkeesian to be an "Industry Guest of Honor" at GenCon 2018?
Sigh. That's not the point. Women are treated badly because they are women. Men are treated badly sometimes, but rarely because they are men.
I guess you've missed the recent feminist backlash against cis white males? Gamers are treated badly because they are men. That's the entire point of Sarkeesian's videos. The male gaze is bad because it is male. Virtual violence is bad because it feeds into masculine desires. Damsels in distress are bad because it is a male power fantasy of saving/winning a princess through heroic (masculine) deeds. The one thing that ties together everything she has ever said about the game industry is that men are bad, doing men things is bad, gamers are men, gamers are bad because they are men.
If she is an issue then express your rights and displeasure by not attending her portion of the meeting, and organize others in similar fashion. If this is an important enough issue, organize a boycott.
2018/06/04 20:03:30
Subject: Anita Sarkeesian to be an "Industry Guest of Honor" at GenCon 2018?
But i am a fair man so I will give you another chance, prove what you are saying or stop spreading false information.
Guv, I'm not going to try and prove the earth is round for you. If you want an education, there's enough institutes across the country, and the internet is right there if you fancy doing a little research on your own. Though given that you've yet to see the proof you're after despite staring right at it, I'm not sure what good it would do you. Pay me, and I might consider writing you a monograph, but otherwise, repeating a demand for one isn't going to get you anywhere. It's certainly not going to make anyone with half a clue think you have a point.
More diversion tactics katara.... so you can’t prove your WRONG statement, you made an assertion that you cannot prove using anecdotal evidence and tried to pass it off as the truth for everyone else, can’t admit your wrong eh... that “toxic masculinity” kicking in is it
Dude, there's been plenty of information shared here. You will simply critique anything that you're pointed out, and call it "flawed" or "biased" and then claim victory.
It's not our job to teach you.
And certainly not our job to persuade you when you are firmly committed to a viewpoint.
2018/06/04 20:07:30
Subject: Anita Sarkeesian to be an "Industry Guest of Honor" at GenCon 2018?
Thing with Sarkeesian for me is she is bringing unwanted politics into a hobby that doesn’t want it, to be clear that’s any politics at all, not just left wing, but right wing too, I can’t hate her for this as I don’t know her personally, I just find it very bad form and smacks of sensationalism to drive up her clicks.
Ignoring everything else for a minute, I am sure we can all agree that there is a time and place for political discourse, but our shared hobby is not one of them.
2018/06/04 20:09:33
Subject: Anita Sarkeesian to be an "Industry Guest of Honor" at GenCon 2018?
Thing with Sarkeesian for me is she is bringing unwanted politics into a hobby that doesn’t want it, to be clear that’s any politics at all, not just left wing, but right wing too, I can’t hate her for this as I don’t know her personally, I just find it very bad form and smacks of sensationalism to drive up her clicks.
Ignoring everything else for a minute, I am sure we can all agree that there is a time and place for political discourse, but our shared hobby is not one of them.
If the problem is within the hobby though, that's where you talk about it, right?
And this is a spectacularly easy conversation to avoid.
There are no victims here, just volunteers.
2018/06/04 20:12:24
Subject: Anita Sarkeesian to be an "Industry Guest of Honor" at GenCon 2018?
master of ordinance wrote: If people do not think Sarkesian is not going to cause trouble in the community then just look at this thread - and all this is before she has had chance to spew her poison.
NOTHING good can come from letting this spiteful, manipulating, lying and toxic person anywhere near the borders of the hobby, let alone inviting the monster into the heart of it. Better to revoke her invitation and risk the inevitable but far less damaging backlash than to have her and her horde of followers gain a foothold and start to push in.
Whoa there Pedro. Whoa.
She’s done nothing in this thread. Not a comment, not a single exalt.
Who’s causing the waves here? People with a complaint (justified or not, I don’t care) against her, saying stuff she’s not present to defend.
It ain’t her cause the problem. Not right here. Not right now.
Indeed. As noted I don't understand the problem. If she annoys you, don't go to the talk or even the event. Life is too short to worry about this gak.
2018/06/04 20:18:11
Subject: Anita Sarkeesian to be an "Industry Guest of Honor" at GenCon 2018?
But i am a fair man so I will give you another chance, prove what you are saying or stop spreading false information.
Guv, I'm not going to try and prove the earth is round for you. If you want an education, there's enough institutes across the country, and the internet is right there if you fancy doing a little research on your own. Though given that you've yet to see the proof you're after despite staring right at it, I'm not sure what good it would do you. Pay me, and I might consider writing you a monograph, but otherwise, repeating a demand for one isn't going to get you anywhere. It's certainly not going to make anyone with half a clue think you have a point.
More diversion tactics katara.... so you can’t prove your WRONG statement, you made an assertion that you cannot prove using anecdotal evidence and tried to pass it off as the truth for everyone else, can’t admit your wrong eh... that “toxic masculinity” kicking in is it
Dude, there's been plenty of information shared here. You will simply critique anything that you're pointed out, and call it "flawed" or "biased" and then claim victory.
It's not our job to teach you.
And certainly not our job to persuade you when you are firmly committed to a viewpoint.
I have asked him to prove his claim that sexism is rampant in the UK, all I have seen so far is articles based on American ideals and values and by extension, politics.
The other examples claim that they are solely because of sexism, ignoring so many other factors involved, I have given Ketara multiple chances to prove his point and been derided for asking for proof, had I started by saying that there is no sexism in the UK at all then he would be well within his rights to demand evidence to back my statements up and I would be forced to either prove it, or admit I was wrong.
And yes, it is your jobs to persuade me you are correct if you are making sweeping statements regarding a cause I have fought for, I freely admit I am one of those people that is in the “prove it” camp, call it a fault if you please
2018/06/04 20:19:35
Subject: Anita Sarkeesian to be an "Industry Guest of Honor" at GenCon 2018?
If she is an issue then express your rights and displeasure by not attending her portion of the meeting, and organize others in similar fashion. If this is an important enough issue, organize a boycott.
Organize a boycott? Sure, no problem. I'll just post a message on this forum... nope, got banned for being a misogynist. I'll contact some game journalists to... nope, Sarkeesian is giving a talk, and that's a good thing. I'll just go over to the GamerGate reddit group and... now I've been banned from 47 different subreddits because I posted in a hate group. Okay, I'll post about it on Twitter... my account got locked until I delete that tweet. Geez, what's left? Facebook? Darn, my posts aren't showing up on other people's timelines.
2018/06/04 20:20:37
Subject: Anita Sarkeesian to be an "Industry Guest of Honor" at GenCon 2018?
Thing with Sarkeesian for me is she is bringing unwanted politics into a hobby that doesn’t want it, to be clear that’s any politics at all, not just left wing, but right wing too, I can’t hate her for this as I don’t know her personally, I just find it very bad form and smacks of sensationalism to drive up her clicks.
Ignoring everything else for a minute, I am sure we can all agree that there is a time and place for political discourse, but our shared hobby is not one of them.
If the problem is within the hobby though, that's where you talk about it, right?
And this is a spectacularly easy conversation to avoid.
There are no victims here, just volunteers.
That’s the thing though right.
I see people claim it’s a problem, very loudly, but no one has ever actually proven it, so how can I reasonably believe it, should I just take their word for it or show some critical thinking and question it in the same manner I would question anything?
2018/06/04 20:20:54
Subject: Anita Sarkeesian to be an "Industry Guest of Honor" at GenCon 2018?
For what it's worth, I don't really know anything about his woman, and I've certainly never watched any of her videos. Like plenty of commenters that make a living off their viewpoint, she no doubt takes things to extremes, and probably says a lot of stuff that's of questionable value.
I will say that I've gamed for about 25 years. Magic, D&D, Warhammer, plenty of others. Somebody earlier in the thread commented that Magic went "full SJW" in a derogatory sense. I don't know much about Magic anymore, but I know when I see people playing FNM or in a prerelease, there are way more women and people of color than when I played in the 90s. I know that D&D has gone out of it's way to be inclusive, which seems to have paid off. Likewise Malifaux.
This suggests that there is inherent interest in the broader hobby among women. I've also spent enough time around gamers to know that there is no shortage of issues with women, ranging from harmless awkwardness to some nastier viewpoints.
So, I can connect these dots to make a pretty simple conclusion: gaming might have had, and still continue to have, some problems with women, but that with some work they can be attracted.
With Anita, what I've seen is a person raise a range of issues, some of them valid, some not, and be met with a torrent of animosity. So, that says to me that gaming isn't quite ready to make some pretty basic changes.
2018/06/04 20:21:52
Subject: Anita Sarkeesian to be an "Industry Guest of Honor" at GenCon 2018?
But i am a fair man so I will give you another chance, prove what you are saying or stop spreading false information.
Guv, I'm not going to try and prove the earth is round for you. If you want an education, there's enough institutes across the country, and the internet is right there if you fancy doing a little research on your own. Though given that you've yet to see the proof you're after despite staring right at it, I'm not sure what good it would do you. Pay me, and I might consider writing you a monograph, but otherwise, repeating a demand for one isn't going to get you anywhere. It's certainly not going to make anyone with half a clue think you have a point.
More diversion tactics katara.... so you can’t prove your WRONG statement, you made an assertion that you cannot prove using anecdotal evidence and tried to pass it off as the truth for everyone else, can’t admit your wrong eh... that “toxic masculinity” kicking in is it
Dude, there's been plenty of information shared here. You will simply critique anything that you're pointed out, and call it "flawed" or "biased" and then claim victory.
It's not our job to teach you.
And certainly not our job to persuade you when you are firmly committed to a viewpoint.
I have asked him to prove his claim that sexism is rampant in the UK, all I have seen so far is articles based on American ideals and values and by extension, politics.
The other examples claim that they are solely because of sexism, ignoring so many other factors involved, I have given Ketara multiple chances to prove his point and been derided for asking for proof, had I started by saying that there is no sexism in the UK at all then he would be well within his rights to demand evidence to back my statements up and I would be forced to either prove it, or admit I was wrong.
And yes, it is your jobs to persuade me you are correct if you are making sweeping statements regarding a cause I have fought for, I freely admit I am one of those people that is in the “prove it” camp, call it a fault if you please
What evidence would you accept?
2018/06/04 20:28:18
Subject: Anita Sarkeesian to be an "Industry Guest of Honor" at GenCon 2018?
Sexism *is* rife in the UK. Stop pretending it isn’t.
This thread is a cesspool.
Stormonu wrote: For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
2018/06/04 20:28:33
Subject: Anita Sarkeesian to be an "Industry Guest of Honor" at GenCon 2018?
But i am a fair man so I will give you another chance, prove what you are saying or stop spreading false information.
Guv, I'm not going to try and prove the earth is round for you. If you want an education, there's enough institutes across the country, and the internet is right there if you fancy doing a little research on your own. Though given that you've yet to see the proof you're after despite staring right at it, I'm not sure what good it would do you. Pay me, and I might consider writing you a monograph, but otherwise, repeating a demand for one isn't going to get you anywhere. It's certainly not going to make anyone with half a clue think you have a point.
More diversion tactics katara.... so you can’t prove your WRONG statement, you made an assertion that you cannot prove using anecdotal evidence and tried to pass it off as the truth for everyone else, can’t admit your wrong eh... that “toxic masculinity” kicking in is it
Dude, there's been plenty of information shared here. You will simply critique anything that you're pointed out, and call it "flawed" or "biased" and then claim victory.
It's not our job to teach you.
And certainly not our job to persuade you when you are firmly committed to a viewpoint.
I have asked him to prove his claim that sexism is rampant in the UK, all I have seen so far is articles based on American ideals and values and by extension, politics.
The other examples claim that they are solely because of sexism, ignoring so many other factors involved, I have given Ketara multiple chances to prove his point and been derided for asking for proof, had I started by saying that there is no sexism in the UK at all then he would be well within his rights to demand evidence to back my statements up and I would be forced to either prove it, or admit I was wrong.
And yes, it is your jobs to persuade me you are correct if you are making sweeping statements regarding a cause I have fought for, I freely admit I am one of those people that is in the “prove it” camp, call it a fault if you please
What evidence would you accept?
Statistical analysis from a credibal source, so none of the newspaper/tabloids or their sites, if you could provide these I promise to read them with an open mind.
Cheers pol
2018/06/04 20:30:47
Subject: Anita Sarkeesian to be an "Industry Guest of Honor" at GenCon 2018?
Polonius wrote: For what it's worth, I don't really know anything about his woman, and I've certainly never watched any of her videos. Like plenty of commenters that make a living off their viewpoint, she no doubt takes things to extremes, and probably says a lot of stuff that's of questionable value.
I will say that I've gamed for about 25 years. Magic, D&D, Warhammer, plenty of others. Somebody earlier in the thread commented that Magic went "full SJW" in a derogatory sense. I don't know much about Magic anymore, but I know when I see people playing FNM or in a prerelease, there are way more women and people of color than when I played in the 90s. I know that D&D has gone out of it's way to be inclusive, which seems to have paid off. Likewise Malifaux.
This suggests that there is inherent interest in the broader hobby among women. I've also spent enough time around gamers to know that there is no shortage of issues with women, ranging from harmless awkwardness to some nastier viewpoints.
So, I can connect these dots to make a pretty simple conclusion: gaming might have had, and still continue to have, some problems with women, but that with some work they can be attracted.
With Anita, what I've seen is a person raise a range of issues, some of them valid, some not, and be met with a torrent of animosity. So, that says to me that gaming isn't quite ready to make some pretty basic changes.
The problem is that Sarkeesian is somewhat heavy handed in her approach and doesn't fully understand what she's critiquing. She also has a ties to the media and a large and rabid social media fanbase.
Her approach does not bring communities together. It divides them, drives them to take extreme positions and ruins them.
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JohnnyHell wrote: Sexism *is* rife in the UK. Stop pretending it isn’t.
This thread is a cesspool.
It's mainly just Pol, Ketara and Formosa making it that way. We were all happy agreeing that Anita Sarkeesian is baffling and/or awful woman to have at Gencon.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/06/04 20:33:54
2018/06/04 20:37:59
Subject: Anita Sarkeesian to be an "Industry Guest of Honor" at GenCon 2018?
If she is an issue then express your rights and displeasure by not attending her portion of the meeting, and organize others in similar fashion. If this is an important enough issue, organize a boycott.
Organize a boycott? Sure, no problem. I'll just post a message on this forum... nope, got banned for being a misogynist. I'll contact some game journalists to... nope, Sarkeesian is giving a talk, and that's a good thing. I'll just go over to the GamerGate reddit group and... now I've been banned from 47 different subreddits because I posted in a hate group. Okay, I'll post about it on Twitter... my account got locked until I delete that tweet. Geez, what's left? Facebook? Darn, my posts aren't showing up on other people's timelines.
If that happens, jeez you may be forced to get off the internet and play a game...
2018/06/04 20:39:00
Subject: Anita Sarkeesian to be an "Industry Guest of Honor" at GenCon 2018?
Thing with Sarkeesian for me is she is bringing unwanted politics into a hobby that doesn’t want it, to be clear that’s any politics at all, not just left wing, but right wing too, I can’t hate her for this as I don’t know her personally, I just find it very bad form and smacks of sensationalism to drive up her clicks.
Ignoring everything else for a minute, I am sure we can all agree that there is a time and place for political discourse, but our shared hobby is not one of them.
If the problem is within the hobby though, that's where you talk about it, right?
And this is a spectacularly easy conversation to avoid.
There are no victims here, just volunteers.
That’s the thing though right.
I see people claim it’s a problem, very loudly, but no one has ever actually proven it, so how can I reasonably believe it, should I just take their word for it or show some critical thinking and question it in the same manner I would question anything?
Reread the thread, but pretend you aren't you while you do it. Maybe ask your sister or your mother to read it and comment. Otherwise, you'll just maintain your blind spot.
