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 Ordana wrote:
10" move and 18" range. A Valiant will likely still be shooting turn 1.
Especially if its Raven and can advance and shoot.

What range is the harpoon? I guess you may be lucky and get to shoot it at some bubble wrap at -1 To hit with it's only shot?

The super Flamer is ok but 600 points to kill 10 guardsmen?

 Ordana wrote:
10" move and 18" range. A Valiant will likely still be shooting turn 1.
Especially if its Raven and can advance and shoot.

Only if opponent lets you. You do know opponent doesn#t have to deploy right in front of it don't you? He knows how far that thing threatens so at most he puts some cheap chaff for target if he wants to

 Crimson wrote:

However, with the melee shield you can boost your invulnerable to 4+ with a stratagem.

Sadly you cannot. "Sanctuary" specifically gives you a 5++ in close combat, it does not say you can use your Ion Shield in close combat (despite what the fluff says). This means that RAW, "Ion Bulwark" and "Rotate Ion Shields" do not boost your invulnerable save in close combat because the save is specifically provided by "Sanctuary", not by your Ion Shield. :(

Ion Bulwark doesnt increase your save, it sets your ion shield save to 4++.

Only really matters when you include FW knights, but...

Speaking of which, what do you guys think of this 1750 list:

Questor Mechanicus: House Krast

Atrapos: Warlord, Landstrider
Gallant: Exalted Court, Sanctuary, Ion Bulwark
Warden: Fist, Paragon Gauntlet, Character
Warden: Reaper Chainsword

-1736

Once the FW knights get FaQd, of course.

Having just played that list in an ITC game taranis seems stronger


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Karhedron wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

However, with the melee shield you can boost your invulnerable to 4+ with a stratagem.

Sadly you cannot. "Sanctuary" specifically gives you a 5++ in close combat, it does not say you can use your Ion Shield in close combat (despite what the fluff says). This means that RAW, "Ion Bulwark" and "Rotate Ion Shields" do not boost your invulnerable save in close combat because the save is specifically provided by "Sanctuary", not by your Ion Shield. :(

Rotate ion shields does raw the only requirent is the model has an invul save

 Crazyterran wrote:
Ion Bulwark doesnt increase your save, it sets your ion shield save to 4++.

Only really matters when you include FW knights, but...

Speaking of which, what do you guys think of this 1750 list:

Questor Mechanicus: House Krast

Atrapos: Warlord, Landstrider
Gallant: Exalted Court, Sanctuary, Ion Bulwark
Warden: Fist, Paragon Gauntlet, Character
Warden: Reaper Chainsword

-1736

Once the FW knights get FaQd, of course.

Are you implying the 4++ doesn't work w/ FW Knights? It's early, I could be reading wrong.

I was more thinking of the Atrapos and two mechanicum knights when I said that since they come with a 4++. Guess the Castigator, Acheron and Lancer could use it.

Ragweek wrote:

 Ordana wrote:
10" move and 18" range. A Valiant will likely still be shooting turn 1.
Especially if its Raven and can advance and shoot.

What range is the harpoon? I guess you may be lucky and get to shoot it at some bubble wrap at -1 To hit with it's only shot?

The super Flamer is ok but 600 points to kill 10 guardsmen?

12".

It is heavy 1; not one shot only, so you can fire it every turn you are in range.

Raven household trait negates advance and fire penalties.

Karhedron: sanctuary is a set 5+ invulerable in melee; but Rotate Ion Shields temporarily improves all invulnerable saves by 1. The Admech version is a little better, just adding 1 to the roll.

Wondering if instead of taking the usual cheap battalion for Co whether an IG out rider detachment of hell hounds with a tank commander warlord with kurovs aquilla and grand strategist would be worth while. Lacks the raw amount of cp but your cp regent is on a tougher platform and the hell hounds can keep up with the knights and offer some anti-horde.
At 2k you could have 3 crusaders 1 executioner and 4 hell hounds though I'm tempted to swap 1 hell hound for a couple of sentinel power lifters. Theme the list as a mechanised long range patrol with lots of extra kit on the tanks and have the sentinels as maintenance/loading equipment for the knights and from a game play perspective they can use crush them! To support a full tilting knight in a first turn charge if opponents don't deploy conservatively.
Just to check though, could grand strategist work when spending cp on warlord traits and relics, fairly sure it does as warlord should be deployed on table before using Pre-game strategies but wanted to be sure.

Except you can target a Tank Commander freely. You cannot target a Company Commander in the same way.

ragnorack1 wrote:
Wondering if instead of taking the usual cheap battalion for Co whether an IG out rider detachment of hell hounds with a tank commander warlord with kurovs aquilla and grand strategist would be worth while. Lacks the raw amount of cp but your cp regent is on a tougher platform and the hell hounds can keep up with the knights and offer some anti-horde.
At 2k you could have 3 crusaders 1 executioner and 4 hell hounds though I'm tempted to swap 1 hell hound for a couple of sentinel power lifters. Theme the list as a mechanised long range patrol with lots of extra kit on the tanks and have the sentinels as maintenance/loading equipment for the knights and from a game play perspective they can use crush them! To support a full tilting knight in a first turn charge if opponents don't deploy conservatively.
Just to check though, could grand strategist work when spending cp on warlord traits and relics, fairly sure it does as warlord should be deployed on table before using Pre-game strategies but wanted to be sure.

If you want CPs you want a detachment that gives 5 of them, not 1.

That said, a tank commander is a decent unit. If you can fit one in as your HQ in a battalion then that's fine. Just give your relic and warlord trait to a company commander and have him hide somewhere.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Except you can target a Tank Commander freely. You cannot target a Company Commander in the same way.

Good point, guess the only advantage is it over saturates targets for the opponents antitank weapons, and maybe a bit more fire power in range first turn. But probably not enough to balance the disadvantages.

How are we feeling about the Preceptor?

What, if anything, is wrong with house Vulkar's warlord trait of only being wounded on a 4+ regardless if the weapon has a higher Str than the Knight's T? It seems to me that that trait + the shroud would make a very tough nut to crack? Add in ion shields and it should give people knightmares.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
What, if anything, is wrong with house Vulkar's warlord trait of only being wounded on a 4+ regardless if the weapon has a higher Str than the Knight's T? It seems to me that that trait + the shroud would make a very tough nut to crack? Add in ion shields and it should give people knightmares.

Basically, most guns already need at least a 4+ to hurt a knight. Things like a 4++, the Mortan -1 to hit and the 2+ armour save are all better. And being Taranis on its own probably does more, without costing you a warlord trait or anything. So if you want to be tough, be Taranis and take the 4++ warlord trait and the 2+ armour save on someone else.

 Cephalobeard wrote:
How are we feeling about the Preceptor?

Love it. Very strong addition to the Questoris line of Knights, especially if you want to run Armigers. On it’s own the duel mode main weapon is handy, while the ability to upgrade the Stubber to a Multi-Laser should be extended to all Knights, it’s worth it.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
How are we feeling about the Preceptor?

Love it. Very strong addition to the Questoris line of Knights, especially if you want to run Armigers. On it’s own the duel mode main weapon is handy, while the ability to upgrade the Stubber to a Multi-Laser should be extended to all Knights, it’s worth it.

SJ

They seem ok. I expect the benefits to armigers are largely lost when you take the knight’s own weak gun into account for comparison. I like wardens, crusaders and errants out of the Questoris knights - the latter because they are cheap.

Now they've been around a little, how are you guys finding Knight lists?

I'm starting to get torn between running a Valiant and 2 Knights, vs 4 Knights - both with guard battalions for added cp.

I've also not left home without spending 6CP on the 3 Knights for 3 WL traits and 3 relics. I don't know why, but i just feel like i'm missing something if i don't

To be honest I'm not sold on the dominus class, they look good and can bring some insane firepower, but they are such an obvious target they tie up all the survivability bonuses, leaving your other knight's exposed where as with questorus class you can spread those bonuses around making your opponents choice of target much more challenging.

I'm considering a 1750 List with a Preceptor and 6 Armigers. With the Omnissiah mask, Landstrider WT and running them all as Taranis, that's a lot of high toughness, highly accurate mobile firebase.

Kdash wrote:
Now they've been around a little, how are you guys finding Knight lists?

I'm starting to get torn between running a Valiant and 2 Knights, vs 4 Knights - both with guard battalions for added cp.

I've also not left home without spending 6CP on the 3 Knights for 3 WL traits and 3 relics. I don't know why, but i just feel like i'm missing something if i don't

How many points are you running? Cause at 2K, you can comfortably take 5 Knights, or 4 if one is a valiant/castellan. I'm personally not convinced that 3+1 Dominus is better than 5 Questoris, nor that the CP from a guard battalion is worth sacrificing an entire extra knight for. You start the game with 6 CP, which is enough to grab an extra relic and have some left over for stratagems throughout the game.

Look at it this way: Rotate ion shields costs 1/3 CP and reduces the damage taken by a single knight by 25% assuming an equal amount of shooting goes into that knight (no guarantee that it does). Going from 4 to 5 knights increases the survivability of your entire army by 25% for the whole game starting turn 1, and effectively costs 5 CP cause you didn't bring guardsmen.

I am thinking of getting a Castellan and putting Legacy of the Black Pall on it. Probably with the 2+ Save relic. Should make it scarily survivable and have a good amount shooting, even without the relic.

I really wish Mortan had more cohesion. They want to be up close, but their Warlord Trait wants them far away. And their Stratagem is shooty too. Still, anything that charges my backfield might be in for a bit of a surprise.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
Add in ion shields and it should give people knightmares.

I’m wondering if that shot over peoples heads. As a dad I appreciate these puns. Carry on sir

 greyknight12 wrote:

Kdash wrote:
Now they've been around a little, how are you guys finding Knight lists?

I'm starting to get torn between running a Valiant and 2 Knights, vs 4 Knights - both with guard battalions for added cp.

I've also not left home without spending 6CP on the 3 Knights for 3 WL traits and 3 relics. I don't know why, but i just feel like i'm missing something if i don't

How many points are you running? Cause at 2K, you can comfortably take 5 Knights, or 4 if one is a valiant/castellan. I'm personally not convinced that 3+1 Dominus is better than 5 Questoris, nor that the CP from a guard battalion is worth sacrificing an entire extra knight for. You start the game with 6 CP, which is enough to grab an extra relic and have some left over for stratagems throughout the game.

Look at it this way: Rotate ion shields costs 1/3 CP and reduces the damage taken by a single knight by 25% assuming an equal amount of shooting goes into that knight (no guarantee that it does). Going from 4 to 5 knights increases the survivability of your entire army by 25% for the whole game starting turn 1, and effectively costs 5 CP cause you didn't bring guardsmen.

So, essentially at 2k, the 3 Knights comes in around 1400-1500 points. 4 Knights 1600-1700. I then use the remaining points for battalions (currently).

Not many points when you go from a Valiant, Gallant and Crusader into 2 Gallants, a Crusader and a Warden/Errant. 1 of each Crusader, Errant, Warden and Gallant comes to 1617 points - but i'm not convinced it would perform considerably better than a Valiant, Crusader and Gallant for 1421 points.

4 Knights, is, more survivable, but, i feel you become very very restricted in what you can do. The moment you use Full Tilt on a Gallant, and Rotate Ion Shields once, most of your CP has gone, unless you're running Guard and aren't running multiple WLs and relics.

Maybe i'm just falling into a trap in thinking 3 relics and warlord traits is the way to go and maybe just running 2 is better. But, my biggest concern is really around my feeling that an extra Knight doesn't always mean an increase in damage output or additional mission control.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I am thinking of getting a Castellan and putting Legacy of the Black Pall on it. Probably with the 2+ Save relic. Should make it scarily survivable

Should, but in real life will not. LCs will make you roll 5+ (the same invulnerable save you have either way), melaguns/ multimeltas/ thermal cannons -- say "hello" to 5++, plasmaguns -- 5+ again, thunderhammerss -- 5+, dark lances -- 5++, bright lances -- 5++, Daemon Princes with axe -- 5+, etc, etc. There are a LOTS of weapons in the game which can make your life miserable if you will ever rely on 2+ save without a decent invulnerable one. And we do not even mention mortal wounds...

So I would say that if you aim for maximum survivability then go for House Taranis and take Sanctuary. With Rotate Ion Shields it will give you 4++ against all attacks and ability to ignore wounds at 6+.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I am thinking of getting a Castellan and putting Legacy of the Black Pall on it. Probably with the 2+ Save relic. Should make it scarily survivable and have a good amount shooting, even without the relic.

I really wish Mortan had more cohesion. They want to be up close, but their Warlord Trait wants them far away. And their Stratagem is shooty too. Still, anything that charges my backfield might be in for a bit of a surprise.

Mortan to me is the "back to front" setup idea.

Essentially, you have a shooty, hard to hit Knight at the back and then a big frontline. The only problem really, is that the "main" frontline is going to be Gallants most of the time, and they won't really benefit from the household trait. However, if you afford the frontline to be something else, then, it does help.

Kdash wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I am thinking of getting a Castellan and putting Legacy of the Black Pall on it. Probably with the 2+ Save relic. Should make it scarily survivable and have a good amount shooting, even without the relic.

I really wish Mortan had more cohesion. They want to be up close, but their Warlord Trait wants them far away. And their Stratagem is shooty too. Still, anything that charges my backfield might be in for a bit of a surprise.

Mortan to me is the "back to front" setup idea.

Essentially, you have a shooty, hard to hit Knight at the back and then a big frontline. The only problem really, is that the "main" frontline is going to be Gallants most of the time, and they won't really benefit from the household trait. However, if you afford the frontline to be something else, then, it does help.

Gallants will benefit quite well from the trait. The trait cancels out the to-hit penalty of the Thunderstrike Gauntlet. They have zero reason to use their Chainsword. It also allows me to put the Paragon Gauntlet on a Warden or Errant. In my case, I have two Frontline Knights that hit on 2s with their Thunderstrike Gauntlets. That allows them to wreck just about anything. Sure, my Gallant isn't going to be stomping any better on hordes, but my Warden and Crusader will.

I don’t think you run gallants as mortan, as the +1 to hit is wasted. But a castellan without Cawl’s wrath feels a bit weak. A taranis one with Cawl’s wrath and ion bulwark feels like a much tougher and shootier knight. A raven one with their stratagem is even more dangerous.

I’d consider running three crusaders for mortan, with Warglaives heading forward. Spread ion bulwark, -1 to hit and the 2+ armour across the knights, so all are tougher.

Anyone finding the increase in survivability from Taranis worth it over the Raven trait? Caught between thise two at the moment.

With the number of wounds on these things it's really tempting. The Raven Strategem for the Castellan tips it that way for me.

Maybe all Taranis with a Freeblade Raven Castellan would be worth trying.