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filbert wrote: It's a one-way rivalry at best, to be honest.
Totally, but that's besides the point. England's football rivalry with Germany is the same. Germans don't care. And it's basically-everything rivalry with France. Who don't care either. It's still entirely unsurprising that those rivalries result in a lack of support for the other side against third parties.
Sure but you gave City/Utd as an example and that simply isn't the case with England/Scotland.
Fair. I could have picked a closer analogy, I just picked the first two English derby sides that came to mind.
In the few times Scotland have been in major tournaments in my lifetime, I have cheered them just as enthusiastically as England, same with Wales, same even with ROI to a lesser extent. I want all the home nations to do well over and above anyone else. I just find it a little sad that the Scottish (and it seems to be exclusively the Scottish - not really the Welsh) go out of their way to really emphasize how much they want anyone other than England to win; we have seen plenty of examples of it in this same thread. I have to say, I don't understand that mentality.
But yes, you are correct, it is along the same lines as England's rivalry with Germany - we don't want the Germans to win, they couldn't give a toss if we do or not. However, I don't find the urge to post threads about how much I want Germany to lose on here or on Facebook threads in the same manner that my Scottish friends do though. it seems to be a particular preserve of the Scottish football fan to be as much anti-England as they are pro-Scotland when it comes to football.
It's equally pronounced amongst Wales and Ireland in rugby, but it is more extreme with Scotland when it comes to football, no doubt. Possibly because it's our national sport whereas that's rugby in Wales, and I guess the Gaelic games in Ireland (but I've no idea if that translates to NI - where of course how much you want England to win at anything depends a lot on which part of the community you come from)?
I do tend to find that most English people I encounter take it in good grace and realise it's largely well-natured. I had a few conversations with people in pubs two weeks ago in Oxford around the quarter final and everyone was having a laugh. Usually, in my experience, the people that take a huff about it have a variety of other problems with Scotland or Scots, or concerns about Englishness.
Really, I just want to see English pundits cry. Except Gary Lineker.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/14 17:18:16
Given the tendency of some in the UK to make disparaging remarks about Belgium or generally be patronizing toward it ("Belgium is not a country" from Mr. Farage for example) I am quite tickled that England got beaten twice by Belgium in one world cup.
I would have liked to see them making the semis though honestly. England seems like it needed the cheering up. It's been a torrid couple of years what with the Euros, Brexit, Novichok, Grenfell and now Trump.
nfe wrote: Russia, France, and Spain really don't care about England's footballing successes unless they're playing them. So that leaves FIFA and Russia conspiring to keep England out so that Scots can have some laughs on a Wednesday night?
For someone that told me that the self-obsession of English commentators and pundits was in my head, this is pretty fantastical. Personally I think England fell apart in the second half because someone dropped the mind-melting bomb that Croatia have both EU membership and blue passports.
Obviously, like the average Scot, I'm pleased that England are out. Disappointed for the team, and for Southgate, both of whom have conducted themselves with class throughout and, refreshingly, come across like a fundamentally decent bunch, but it means the final will be fun to watch, rather than a tedious exercise in listening to people that apparently don't know any third person pronouns. It'll still be awash with lengthy discussions about how England would have gotten on against the France performance we see on Sunday.
It's been a really fun world cup for an (almost) neutral. Sadly, I don't think we'll see another exciting upset in the final, but fingers crossed for Croatia, anyway.
Sorry, for you and the other that quoted me, do you mind showing where I mentioned anything about a formal conspiracy between France, Russia, Spain and Scotland? You need to read what I typed, rather than what you think I typed.
My point is thus - there is a prevalence on the international scene for many countries, particularly European and even more so British, to try and embarrass the English. They will take any opportunity they can possibly get. There is also the same prevalence to try and embarrass Britain, you've only got to look at the European song contest if you want an idea of how popular Britain is in the international community, let alone Europe (as an institution).
The quotation I was responding to prior that you jumped on the back of, misunderstood what I was saying (surprise surprise) and assumed I believed the ref/Fifa have some pro Croatia agenda and claimed this was stupid because Croatia is such a small country. Which is not what I was saying. What I was saying is that virtually EVERY OTHER COUNTRY APART FROM ENGLAND wanted England out on Wednesday. Fifa were catering to the masses.
If you're not talking about any conspiring, can you clarify this, please?
It might also be worth having a think about why every other nation wants England to lose at pretty much everything. In all seriousness, why do you think that might be?
What's more embarrassing is the fact that even our peers on the same fething island can't support us. That they are so pathetic and petty, that they would rather a team they have absolutely no link with beat a team that is effectively a neighbour. You should be embarrassed about the bolded part of your quotation above, that you can't support England when your own team is out really highlights how truly petty you are. If Scotland were still in I can guarantee that the English would support them.
This misses two things:
A) Ruling nations frequently support subservient ones in a paternalistic sense. It's not difficult to understand why it isn't reciprocated.
B) England are Scotland's main sporting rivals. Do you expect Man City and Man U fans to lend their support to the others in the CL when their side is out?
a) Explain what? You haven't been clear what exactly you want clarifying?
b) Probably because other nations are jealous/have a chip on their shoulder/petty (take your pick). As I said, the same thing applies to Britain (that includes you my Scottish friend). I hate to tell you but you're tarred with the same brush.
c) A) Sorry so it should be accepted because England are a "ruling nation"? Interesting. Did I dream that Scotland had it's own government? B) This isn't a premier league football rivalry we're talking about, we're talking about 2 countries that are next to each other and work together in almost every respect.
nfe wrote: Russia, France, and Spain really don't care about England's footballing successes unless they're playing them. So that leaves FIFA and Russia conspiring to keep England out so that Scots can have some laughs on a Wednesday night?
For someone that told me that the self-obsession of English commentators and pundits was in my head, this is pretty fantastical. Personally I think England fell apart in the second half because someone dropped the mind-melting bomb that Croatia have both EU membership and blue passports.
Obviously, like the average Scot, I'm pleased that England are out. Disappointed for the team, and for Southgate, both of whom have conducted themselves with class throughout and, refreshingly, come across like a fundamentally decent bunch, but it means the final will be fun to watch, rather than a tedious exercise in listening to people that apparently don't know any third person pronouns. It'll still be awash with lengthy discussions about how England would have gotten on against the France performance we see on Sunday.
It's been a really fun world cup for an (almost) neutral. Sadly, I don't think we'll see another exciting upset in the final, but fingers crossed for Croatia, anyway.
Sorry, for you and the other that quoted me, do you mind showing where I mentioned anything about a formal conspiracy between France, Russia, Spain and Scotland? You need to read what I typed, rather than what you think I typed.
My point is thus - there is a prevalence on the international scene for many countries, particularly European and even more so British, to try and embarrass the English. They will take any opportunity they can possibly get. There is also the same prevalence to try and embarrass Britain, you've only got to look at the European song contest if you want an idea of how popular Britain is in the international community, let alone Europe (as an institution).
The quotation I was responding to prior that you jumped on the back of, misunderstood what I was saying (surprise surprise) and assumed I believed the ref/Fifa have some pro Croatia agenda and claimed this was stupid because Croatia is such a small country. Which is not what I was saying. What I was saying is that virtually EVERY OTHER COUNTRY APART FROM ENGLAND wanted England out on Wednesday. Fifa were catering to the masses.
If you're not talking about any conspiring, can you clarify this, please?
It might also be worth having a think about why every other nation wants England to lose at pretty much everything. In all seriousness, why do you think that might be?
What's more embarrassing is the fact that even our peers on the same fething island can't support us. That they are so pathetic and petty, that they would rather a team they have absolutely no link with beat a team that is effectively a neighbour. You should be embarrassed about the bolded part of your quotation above, that you can't support England when your own team is out really highlights how truly petty you are. If Scotland were still in I can guarantee that the English would support them.
This misses two things:
A) Ruling nations frequently support subservient ones in a paternalistic sense. It's not difficult to understand why it isn't reciprocated.
B) England are Scotland's main sporting rivals. Do you expect Man City and Man U fans to lend their support to the others in the CL when their side is out?
a) Explain what? You haven't been clear what exactly you want clarifying?
The bolded term 'catering'.
b) Probably because other nations are jealous/have a chip on their shoulder/petty (take your pick).
The majority of the planet (that cares about western and Olympic sports, at least) is jealous of the UK or England or simply has a chip on their shoulder? Righto. I think that assumption might have way more to do with it.
As I said, the same thing applies to Britain (that includes you my Scottish friend). I hate to tell you but you're tarred with the same brush.
100% I am. But I don't think that's a problem.
c) A) Sorry so it should be accepted because England are a "ruling nation"? Interesting. Did I dream that Scotland had it's own government? B) This isn't a premier league football rivalry we're talking about, we're talking about 2 countries that are next to each other and work together in almost every respect.
It has it's own government with certain devolved powers. England is, unquestionably, the dominant partner in the UK, though. You can't think that's up for dispute? Whilst England and Scotland are obviously heavily interconnected, that doesn't mean they aren't sporting rivals. In fact, thinking about the rest of the world, the more interconnected that countries are, the more they tend to be sporting rivals. In fact, Australia and New Zealand are a good comparison. They're not as thoroughly intertwined, but you have two closely connected nations, one of which is significantly more powerful, where the smaller one roots against the bigger in sport all the time but the larger often likes the other to do well.
Anyway, I'm putting a tenner on France (and predicting a 2-1), but I'll be rooting for Croatia and hoping to be wrong.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/07/14 17:38:57
I wrote:where I mentioned anything about a formal conspiracy between France, Russia, Spain and Scotland?
nfe wrote: The majority of the planet (that cares about western and Olympic sports, at least) is jealous of the UK or England or simply has a chip on their shoulder? Righto. I think that assumption might have way more to do with it.
Can you just take a look at some of the media outside of the UK around the World Cup and come back to me. Go have a read what Maradona said and his excuse for an apology. Go take a look at how people have responded to "It's coming home" (yourself included I believe?) and the fact that Lineker had to explain it to the uneducated.
Yes, I suspect when you literally own a fifth of the World you upset a fair few people.
nfe wrote: 100% I am. But I don't think that's a problem.
Cool.
nfe wrote: It has it's own government with certain devolved powers. England is, unquestionably, the dominant partner in the UK, though. You can't think that's up for dispute? Whilst England and Scotland are obviously heavily interconnected, that doesn't mean they aren't sporting rivals. In fact, thinking about the rest of the world, the more interconnected that countries are, the more they tend to be sporting rivals. In fact, Australia and New Zealand are a good comparison. They're not as thoroughly intertwined, but you have two closely connected nations, one of which is significantly more powerful, where the smaller one roots against the bigger in sport all the time but the larger often likes the other to do well.
You're analogy was a poor one, you've admitted this earlier in the thread I believe? As someone else said, Scotland may believe England to be rivals, but the reverse is not true.
The reason for the English rivalry with Germany (with regards football) is largely because of them repeatedly knocking us out of many a tournament.
The reason for the rivalry with France (in almost everything) is because historically we have been at war over and over.
nfe wrote: Anyway, I'm putting a tenner on France (and predicting a 2-1), but I'll be rooting for Croatia and hoping to be wrong.
Good bet but why are you rooting for Croatia?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/07/14 17:51:40
Wow the victimism. And the comparison with Eurovision... Spain only receives votes from Portugal and Andorra, I suppose that means all of Europe just hates Spain?
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
Galas wrote: Wow the victimism. And the comparison with Eurovision... Spain only receives votes from Portugal and Andorra, I suppose that means all of Europe just hates Spain?
It's not just Eurovision mate.
You might have noticed that Spanish sport has done VERY WELL out of Europe. Funny how much funding the country gets to improve on it's sporting facilities, athletes etc
where I mentioned anything about a formal conspiracy between France, Russia, Spain and Scotland?
A) So, it's just informal conspiring? What do you actually believe FIFA are doing? Specifically?
B) I might suggest that you try to be less patronising. There's a lot of bright people in this sub-forum. If you find yourself being frequently misunderstood it isn't necessarily always the reader's error.
nfe wrote: The majority of the planet (that cares about western and Olympic sports, at least) is jealous of the UK or England or simply has a chip on their shoulder? Righto. I think that assumption might have way more to do with it.
Can you just take a look at some of the media outside of the UK around the World Cup and come back to me. Go have a read what Maradona said and his excuse for an apology. Go take a look at how people have responded to "It's coming home" (yourself included I believe?) and the fact that Lineker had to explain it to the uneducated.
I read a lot of non-UK media. In multiple languages. I think I get a fair breadth but I could certainly do much better and I'm sure you do a better job. I don't see evidence of global jealousy of chip-shouldering. I do see a lot of disinterest, a lot of people who hate English fans, and more who dislike English pundits. I see only a fraction of the ire I see for other countries players, curiously.
Yes, I suspect when you literally own a fifth of the World you upset a fair few people.
Well, there's a hint of awareness, at least. But I presume you think it's just having a chip on your shoulder to resent being colonised? You might even be one of the cats that thinks empire helped everyone?
nfe wrote: It has it's own government with certain devolved powers. England is, unquestionably, the dominant partner in the UK, though. You can't think that's up for dispute? Whilst England and Scotland are obviously heavily interconnected, that doesn't mean they aren't sporting rivals. In fact, thinking about the rest of the world, the more interconnected that countries are, the more they tend to be sporting rivals. In fact, Australia and New Zealand are a good comparison. They're not as thoroughly intertwined, but you have two closely connected nations, one of which is significantly more powerful, where the smaller one roots against the bigger in sport all the time but the larger often likes the other to do well.
You're analogy was a poor one, you've admitted this earlier in the thread I believe? As someone else said, Scotland may believe England to be rivals, but the reverse is not true.
My analogy with the EPL, yes. What's your problem with the above?
The reason for the English rivalry with Germany (with regards football) is largely because of them repeatedly knocking us out of many a tournament.
The reason for the rivalry with France (in almost everything) is because historically we have been at war over and over.
Agreed. Point?
nfe wrote: Anyway, I'm putting a tenner on France (and predicting a 2-1), but I'll be rooting for Croatia and hoping to be wrong.
Good bet but why are you rooting for Croatia?
Underdogs. The whole world doesn't revolve around England.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/07/14 18:15:23
nfe wrote: A) So, it's just informal conspiring? What do you actually believe FIFA are doing? Specifically?
B) I might suggest that you try to be less patronising. There's a lot of bright people in this sub-forum. If you find yourself being frequently misunderstood it isn't necessarily always the reader's error.
B) No, but in this case, it is. Read my post and what I was responding to;
Power Elephant wrote: If I were a corrupt organisation looking to get money, I wouldn't cater to the country with 4 million people as opposed to the one with 53.
Remind me who did the Russians want to win that match? Its a lot nicer to think your team was knocked out by a finalist than by a semi finalist.
How about Spainish or French?
What about the Scottish ffs?
They aren't catering just to Croatia only, use your brain.
The decisions second half of the match and in extra time were a disgrace, obviously so.
Like I've said already and more than once, I believe FIFA cater to the masses. Of course they also cater to their financiers (both legitimate and otherwise). They clearly do not cater to those countries that oust their corrupt members (something else I've mentioned in this thread before).
Apologies if you find my tone patronising, but I really don't like repeating myself over and over and over again. There's only so many times I can say the same thing and not get frustrated. I'll also note that the confusion is probably because you jumped in on the middle of a discussion, rather than reading the prior context. As you can see I don't like to quote the entire previous conversion, it makes the posts excessively large.
nfe wrote: I read a lot of non-UK media. In multiple languages. I think I get a fair breadth but I could certainly do much better and I'm sure you do a better job. I don't see evidence of global jealousy of chip-shouldering. I do see a lot of disinterest, a lot of people who hate English fans, and more who dislike English pundits. I see only a fraction of the ire I see for other countries players, curiously.
Now who's patronising?
Please enlighten me as to why there is so much hatred of English fans and pundits?
Many of the pundits have been tempered with a sense of realism of the actual ability of our current squad and the English fans have been angels abroad as far as I'm aware? A minority have embarrassed us here, on English soil. But I doubt that is enough to bother other nations particularly.
nfe wrote: Well, there's a hint of awareness, at least. But I presume you think it's just having a chip on your shoulder to resent being colonised? You might even be one of the cats that thinks empire helped everyone?
Again with the patronising tone and you presume wrong. Stop presuming. I think there's many reasons a nation or person might have a chip on their shoulder. As I said earlier and I believe you quoted below, it could be because we knocked them out of a prior tournament, in Maradona's case it's clearly the Falklands and likely his embarrassment at having to cheat to beat us, it could be colonisation or a ton of other geo-political factors. I don't claim to know the every reason for why we are disliked on the international scene.
My thoughts on the empire are irrelevant. I know that if you go back far enough in any nations' history you will always find dirt.
nfe wrote: My analogy with the EPL, yes. What's your problem with the above?
Different sport, no evidence, completely different circumstances?
To demonstrate there are other reasons a country might have a rivalry and because the reasoning behind England's rivalry with Germany and France was questioned earlier in the thread?
nfe wrote: Underdogs. The whole world doesn't revolve around England.
More presumptions? I said nothing of the sort.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/07/14 18:44:59
Sorry I missed that you edited this into a proper response last night. We're getting on towards a derail-lock though so I'm only going to respond to the explicitly-WC bit.
nfe wrote: A) So, it's just informal conspiring? What do you actually believe FIFA are doing? Specifically?
B) I might suggest that you try to be less patronising. There's a lot of bright people in this sub-forum. If you find yourself being frequently misunderstood it isn't necessarily always the reader's error.
B) No, but in this case, it is. Read my post and what I was responding to;
Power Elephant wrote: If I were a corrupt organisation looking to get money, I wouldn't cater to the country with 4 million people as opposed to the one with 53.
Remind me who did the Russians want to win that match? Its a lot nicer to think your team was knocked out by a finalist than by a semi finalist.
How about Spainish or French?
What about the Scottish ffs?
They aren't catering just to Croatia only, use your brain.
The decisions second half of the match and in extra time were a disgrace, obviously so.
Like I've said already and more than once, I believe FIFA cater to the masses. Of course they also cater to their financiers (both legitimate and otherwise). They clearly do not cater to those countries that oust their corrupt members (something else I've mentioned in this thread before).
Apologies if you find my tone patronising, but I really don't like repeating myself over and over and over again. There's only so many times I can say the same thing and not get frustrated.
I think the repetition is due to your vagueness. You are saying that FIFA 'cater' to the masses, and you seemed to relate it to, for instance, refereeing decisions made in the ENGvCRO match, but you state there is no formal conspiring at work, and you didn't respond to my asking if you think there is some form of informal conspiring at work. So please, for the sake of clarity, and so you never need repeat yourself again on the subject, can you state specifically what you believe FIFA are actually doing or have done to 'cater to the masses' that has impacted English progression in this tournament?
An Actual Englishman wrote: the English fans have been angels abroad as far as I'm aware? A minority have embarrassed us here, on English soil. But I doubt that is enough to bother other nations particularly..
well there's the ones singing anti semitic songs and giving Nazi salutes
and we didn't really do ourselves any favours in Holland recently either did we ?
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We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
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I thought the VAR thing was supposed to stop cheating ?
That French player diving should have been booked not got a free kick.
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
Just caught the halftime recap, that was crazy! Who would've guessed Croatia would have 61% possession? Shame about the errors, hopefully they can find another goal.
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
Frozocrone wrote: France got very lucky with two of their goals but that's the way it is sometimes.
True but it is sad when the better team loses.
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
The Croatian goalkeeper could've made a better effort on the last two goals, imo. He was guessing a side when he didn't need to, and unable to recover the other way despite the shots not being too far from center.
Overall, that was a fantastic game!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/15 17:12:26
Some people who are having a really terrible time now.
Apparently they were Pussy Riot. You know, that radical feminist punk group that got arrested for staging a rather indecent performance on the altar of the Cathedral of Christ the Saviour. Guess it is back to the labour camps for them.
A pity that France won. Not that they did not deserve it, they played very effective football, but it is just so extremely boring. Literally the only excitement France can deliver is when Mbappé gets the ball. That guy can run so amazingly fast. He is also only 19, which makes it all the more impressive. Very talented player. Overall, Croatia were dominant and played much nicer football, but they just could not get past the French defenses. Meanwhile, the French had only few opportunities, but they were very good at using those. Boring, but brutally effective. They won deservedly. I hoped for a Croatia win though. That would have been amazing. Also because I love Modrić. He is like a total wizard with a ball. At least he got the best player award. Completely deserved it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/15 19:28:39
