US & NA Politics Thread

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**Xenomancers**

Mario wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
With what? hot air balloons?
More like this

See above ^ this is completely unrelated to the topic. it in fact strengthens my argument that the "family separation issue" is completely overblown. If it was in fact true (completely unverifiable) that the majority of illegal aliens in this country come via green cards or during travel here legally. They aren't subject to any of this.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

skyth wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
Disciple of Fate wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
Ustrello wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
d-usa wrote:
Trafficking =\= migration.

You are joking right? Who do you think transports these vulnerable people? It's a business. An unregulated illegal one. WHO DO YOU THINK CONTROLS this market?

You realize most people just fly over the border right?

With what? hot air balloons?

With those big metal birds that have been all the rage since 1903!
I guess you are referring to the people that come here on green cards and go into hiding when the time has come try to renew their green card. This is also illegal immigration but this has little to do with illegal boarder crossings. Anyone here on a green card has proper identification and is at 0 risk of being separated from their children.

Factually incorrect.

No - fact. 1997 Flores immigration act does not require family separation for people who came to the country legally. It isn't being used as such ether.

This same act was in effect during multiple presidential terms. Trump is merely enforcing the law. Which you know...is kind of his job.

**skyth**

Considering that US citizens have been swept up...Having an expired green card won't keep you from being separated from your children.

And separating the children from their parents is NOT 'merely enforcing the law.

**Wolfblade**

>Xeno asks for proof he has ever argued in bad faith
>proceeds to shill for republicans and argue that "Nuh-uh! it's not their fault that their policy is separating children from parents/it's the lesser of 2+ evils/they're just enforcing the law!" even when presented with facts previously.

Keep drinking the kool aid...

**BaronIveagh**

Xenomancers wrote:

No - fact. 1997 Flores immigration act does not require family separation for people who came to the country legally. It isn't being used as such ether.

Factually incorrect AND proving what Musketeer said about you, You really DO ignore when you're shown to be wrong and come back parroting the same BS again.

Federal judges have already ruled that this is in fact the case, where people who came the the US legally had their children seized, in over 1,000 cases.

**LordofHats**

Yeah but it's only a thousand cases. It's not that many /sarcasm

**BaronIveagh**

LordofHats wrote:
Yeah but it's only a thousand cases. It's not that many /sarcasm

Well, Xenophilia here doesn't grasp that one can be a lot, if it's one you give a damn about.

**Asherian Command**

Wolfblade wrote:
>Xeno asks for proof he has ever argued in bad faith
>proceeds to shill for republicans and argue that "Nuh-uh! it's not their fault that their policy is separating children from parents/it's the lesser of 2+ evils/they're just enforcing the law!" even when presented with facts previously.

Keep drinking the kool aid...

At this point he is drinking the bleach and the koolaid.

Well, Xenophilia here doesn't grasp that one can be a lot, if it's one you give a damn about.

If this conversation about people coming to our country the united states has shown us anything is that he is anything but sympathetic.....

**BaronIveagh**

Asherian Command wrote:

At this point he is drinking the bleach and the koolaid.

It kind of reminds me of what's his name, yaraton? the one that always jumped up and down if someone posted photos of Russian tanks invading the Ukraine that we hated Russia and Russians invading the Ukraine were all lies spread by dirty corrupt Ukrainians.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Asherian Command wrote:

If this conversation about people coming to our country the united states has shown us anything is that he is anything but sympathetic.....

I can't wait for the day to come he has to flee to Canada and they won't let him in.

**Asherian Command**

BaronIveagh wrote:
Asherian Command wrote:

At this point he is drinking the bleach and the koolaid.

It kind of reminds me of what's his name, yaraton? the one that always jumped up and down if someone posted photos of Russian tanks invading the Ukraine that we hated Russia and Russians invading the Ukraine were all lies spread by dirty corrupt Ukrainians.

Wait... What.

Anyway. to align the tracks.

Did anyone read that article i posted about stormy? Or are we going to continue talking about Immigration?!

**Xenomancers**

BaronIveagh wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:

No - fact. 1997 Flores immigration act does not require family separation for people who came to the country legally. It isn't being used as such ether.

Factually incorrect AND proving what Musketeer said about you, You really DO ignore when you're shown to be wrong and come back parroting the same BS again.

Federal judges have already ruled that this is in fact the case, where people who came the the US legally had their children seized, in over 1,000 cases.

I thought it was 450 cases? WTF are you even talking about?

So there are 1000 more separated families? Great - lets talk about that. How many of the families were reunited? How many were deported. Not seeing anything pop up in articles?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

skyth wrote:
Considering that US citizens have been swept up...Having an expired green card won't keep you from being separated from your children.

And separating the children from their parents is NOT 'merely enforcing the law.

Lol have you read the law. It is absolutely enforcing the law. Children and adults aren't allowed to be held together. It is considered inhumane. I agree. It would be.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Asherian Command wrote:
BaronIveagh wrote:
Asherian Command wrote:

At this point he is drinking the bleach and the koolaid.

It kind of reminds me of what's his name, yaraton? the one that always jumped up and down if someone posted photos of Russian tanks invading the Ukraine that we hated Russia and Russians invading the Ukraine were all lies spread by dirty corrupt Ukrainians.

Wait... What.

Anyway. to align the tracks.

Did anyone read that article i posted about stormy? Or are we going to continue talking about Immigration?!

I read it. Some emails apparently prove police knew she was at a club stripping. then arrested her for touching people which is apparently illegal (odd).

I guess you supposed this is a trump reprisal. Any evidence of that?

**Vaktathi**

Xenomancers wrote:

I read it. Some emails apparently prove police knew she was at a club stripping. then arrested her for touching people which is apparently illegal (odd).

I guess you supposed this is a trump reprisal. Any evidence of that?

What she did wasn't illegal, hence why the DA dropped the charges immediately. According to the article, the emails aren't just "police knew she was at a club", the only reason they're there is because of Stormy, they talk about how they met their needed elements to arrest and bragged about it afterwards.

On a different note, Articles of Impeachment against Rosenstein introduced.

**Asherian Command**

Vaktathi wrote:

On a different note, Articles of Impeachment against Rosenstein introduced.

What... So the house is saying "You need to show us stuff!"

Yet they haven't they? And hasn't the house sorta lied about what they have received?

**Xenomancers**

Vaktathi wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:

I read it. Some emails apparently prove police knew she was at a club stripping. then arrested her for touching people which is apparently illegal (odd).

I guess you supposed this is a trump reprisal. Any evidence of that?
What she did wasn't illegal, hence why the DA dropped the charges immediately. According to the article, the emails aren't just "police knew she was at a club", the only reason they're there is because of Stormy, they talk about how they met their needed elements to arrest and bragged about it afterwards.

On a different note, Articles of Impeachment against Rosenstein introduced.

Dumb law - illegal based on a technicality though it seems from the article...apparently it doesn't cover guest performers. Hence why it's a stupid law to begin with.

**skyth**

Love the Calvinargument. Doubling down on a lie spouted at the beggining of this travesty.

**BobtheInquisitor**

Asherian Command wrote:
BaronIveagh wrote:
Asherian Command wrote:

At this point he is drinking the bleach and the koolaid.

It kind of reminds me of what's his name, yaraton? the one that always jumped up and down if someone posted photos of Russian tanks invading the Ukraine that we hated Russia and Russians invading the Ukraine were all lies spread by dirty corrupt Ukrainians.

Wait... What.

Anyway. to align the tracks.

Did anyone read that article i posted about stormy? Or are we going to continue talking about Immigration?!

I read it. I' sure there will be a lawsuit. I'm not sure if there will be any firings.

**NinthMusketeer**

Vaktathi wrote:
On a different note, Articles of Impeachment against Rosenstein introduced.

What are they aiming to gain here, or is it a delusional undertaking.? From my perspective they cannot shut down the investigation, or even obstruct it in any significant way, without causing massive blacklash from Americans outside their base. That does not change with or without Rosenstein.

BaronIveagh wrote:
NinthMusketeer wrote:

This is what I mean when I say that responding to Xeno drags the thread down. Rather than discussing actual politics we are re-hashing basic truths and re-debunking lies that he will immediately and completely ignore.

Fine, fine, will wait for mods to re-ban him for something.

Must also point out, there's a certain irony that one person on my block list is telling me to ignore another person on my block list.

I do not understand the irony, I suspect I am missing something. I am also curious which reason in particular (I can think of several good ones) earned me a block.

**Disciple of Fate**

NinthMusketeer wrote:
Vaktathi wrote:
On a different note, Articles of Impeachment against Rosenstein introduced.
What are they aiming to gain here, or is it a delusional undertaking.? From my perspective they cannot shut down the investigation, or even obstruct it in any significant way, without causing massive blacklash from Americans outside their base. That does not change with or without Rosenstein.

The more cynical analysis I have seen is that this gives Trump the notion of that its 'the will of the people' to get rid of Rosenstein, like Trump already wants. As such they know the impeachment procedure will fail but its just meant as ammo for the man who can more easily do it. And by this point would they really face a backlash? Republicans are held hostage by Trump's base and its getting close to election time. Most of the general population will be appalled, but I don't think Congress will give more than a peep.

**Asherian Command**

https://i.imgur.com/59pW2xc.jpg

What kind of a lawyer would tape a client? So sad! Is this a first, never heard of it before? Why was the tape so abruptly terminated (cut) while I was presumably saying positive things? I hear there are other clients and many reporters that are taped - can this be so? Too bad!
— Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) July 25, 2018

*sigh*

Love the Calvinargument. Doubling down on a lie spouted at the beggining of this travesty.

what is this in reference to?

**NinthMusketeer**

Disciple of Fate wrote:
NinthMusketeer wrote:
Vaktathi wrote:
On a different note, Articles of Impeachment against Rosenstein introduced.
What are they aiming to gain here, or is it a delusional undertaking.? From my perspective they cannot shut down the investigation, or even obstruct it in any significant way, without causing massive blacklash from Americans outside their base. That does not change with or without Rosenstein.
The more cynical analysis I have seen is that this gives Trump the notion of that its 'the will of the people' to get rid of Rosenstein, like Trump already wants. As such they know the impeachment procedure will fail but its just meant as ammo for the man who can more easily do it. And by this point would they really face a backlash? Republicans are held hostage by Trump's base and its getting close to election time. Most of the general population will be appalled, but I don't think Congress will give more than a peep.

I believe that there would be riots if the Mueller investigation was halted.

**Ouze**

NinthMusketeer wrote:
I believe that there would be riots if the Mueller investigation was halted.

I doubt it. The GOP would love it and the dems are too dejected to do anything. The Mueller investigation was never, ever going to lead to impeachment anyway so the sooner that the left wing adjusts to that reality, the better. It's a red herring in terms of taking back power, which will not come at the hand of impeachment.

**Disciple of Fate**

NinthMusketeer wrote:
Disciple of Fate wrote:
NinthMusketeer wrote:
Vaktathi wrote:
On a different note, Articles of Impeachment against Rosenstein introduced.
What are they aiming to gain here, or is it a delusional undertaking.? From my perspective they cannot shut down the investigation, or even obstruct it in any significant way, without causing massive blacklash from Americans outside their base. That does not change with or without Rosenstein.
The more cynical analysis I have seen is that this gives Trump the notion of that its 'the will of the people' to get rid of Rosenstein, like Trump already wants. As such they know the impeachment procedure will fail but its just meant as ammo for the man who can more easily do it. And by this point would they really face a backlash? Republicans are held hostage by Trump's base and its getting close to election time. Most of the general population will be appalled, but I don't think Congress will give more than a peep.
I believe that there would be riots if the Mueller investigation was halted.

If that really occurs it will be those outside of the Republican base, only reinforcing the notion that they have to vote Republican and Trump so 'those people' don't get into power. As long as Congress sides with Trump there is little you can do.

**Asherian Command**

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2018/07/trump-tweets-anger-at-fcc-after-pai-blocks-sinclairtribune-merger/

In wierder dumber news :

President Donald Trump yesterday lashed out at the Federal Communications Commission over its vote to block Sinclair Broadcast Group's acquisition of Tribune Media Company.

"So sad and unfair that the FCC wouldn't approve the Sinclair Broadcast merger with Tribune," Trump tweeted.

A combination of Sinclair and Tribune "would have been a great and much needed Conservative voice for and of the People," Trump wrote. Trump contrasted the Sinclair/Tribune denial with the FCC's approval of Comcast's purchase of NBCUniversal, which happened in 2011.

"Liberal Fake News NBC and Comcast gets approved, much bigger, but not Sinclair. Disgraceful!" Trump wrote.

Commissioner Jessica Rosenworcel, the FCC's only Democrat, offered a one-word response to Trump's tweet: "Disagree."

Trump had said during his election campaign that his administration would look into breaking up Comcast and NBC, but he hasn't acted on that threat as president.
FCC was unanimous in vote against merger

The FCC last week voted unanimously against approving the Sinclair/Tribune deal. Sinclair needed to divest some stations in order to stay under federal ownership limits, but FCC Chairman Ajit Pai said the company's proposal to divest certain stations "would allow Sinclair to control those stations in practice, even if not in name, in violation of the law."

The FCC didn't block the merger outright, but it referred the deal to an administrative law judge. Mergers usually don't survive that legal process.

If no divestitures were made, the merger would let Sinclair reach 72 percent of US television households. Sinclair owns or operates 173 broadcast TV stations in 81 markets, while Tribune has 42 stations in 33 markets.

The merger was opposed by Democratic lawmakers, consumer advocacy groups, small cable companies, and Sinclair competitors.

Sinclair is known for having a right-wing bias and for requiring its news stations to run certain political segments. In one recent case, Sinclair forced local TV news anchors to read a script that echoed President Trump's complaints about "fake" news stories. Trump loved the segment, tweeting that "Sinclair is far superior to CNN and even more Fake NBC, which is a total joke."
FCC independence from White House

While the FCC is an independent agency, the president nominates commissioners and appoints the chair. Since the Sinclair/Tribune merger proceeding isn't over, Trump's tweet could be an effort to change the outcome.

During the Obama administration, Congressional Republicans accused Obama of having "an improper influence" over the FCC's decision on net neutrality after Obama publicly supported imposition of net neutrality rules. An investigation by FCC's independent Inspector General's (IG) office found "no evidence" of improper influence.

While Pai and Trump have parted ways on Sinclair, Trump's White House previously supported Pai's decision to overturn the net neutrality rules.

Democratic lawmakers have also accused Pai of improperly coordinating with Sinclair on several rule changes. The FCC Inspector General agreed to investigate the allegations in February.

Despite blocking the Sinclair/Tribune deal, Pai's FCC last year relaxed TV station ownership limits in a decision that could pave the way for more media mergers. A US appeals court rejected a challenge to that FCC decision today.

**Disciple of Fate**

In one recent case, Sinclair forced local TV news anchors to read a script that echoed President Trump's complaints about "fake" news stories. Trump loved the segment, tweeting that "Sinclair is far superior to CNN and even more Fake NBC, which is a total joke."

This is so sad, Sinclair is like Dora the Explorer for Trump...

In other news, Trump is pretending that he achieved victory over the EU, meanwhile over in the EU people are scratching their heads going "so Juncker got everything the EU wants without really giving anything and that's considered a win in Trump land?" Winning trade wars really is easy!

**Kilkrazy**

Trump supporters don't care about reality, so nearly anything is a win for Trump becasue he just Tweets something they want to hear.

**Disciple of Fate**

Kilkrazy wrote:
Trump supporters don't care about reality, so nearly anything is a win for Trump becasue he just Tweets something they want to hear.

Indeed, it must be nice to be so uhm.. unburdened by the demands and issues of reality.

**tneva82**

Disciple of Fate wrote:
In one recent case, Sinclair forced local TV news anchors to read a script that echoed President Trump's complaints about "fake" news stories. Trump loved the segment, tweeting that "Sinclair is far superior to CNN and even more Fake NBC, which is a total joke."

This is so sad, Sinclair is like Dora the Explorer for Trump...

In other news, Trump is pretending that he achieved victory over the EU, meanwhile over in the EU people are scratching their heads going "so Juncker got everything the EU wants without really giving anything and that's considered a win in Trump land?" Winning trade wars really is easy!

What they btw agreed? According to finnish news site eu agreed to buy some stuff, planned new tariffs put on hold and us reconsiders steel and aluminium tarifs.

That does sound us win. Eu agrees to buy stuff, us reconsiders. What if trump says "naha we still keep them". Wouldn't even be breaking deal. Reconsideration can end in original result as well

**A Town Called Malus**

tneva82 wrote:

That does sound us win. Eu agrees to buy stuff, us reconsiders. What if trump says "naha we still keep them". Wouldn't even be breaking deal. Reconsideration can end in original result as well

You're assuming that the EU didn't intend to buy that stuff anyway. If the US doesn't drop the tariffs, the EU can just go ahead with the planned tariffs.

**YeOldSaltPotato**

Xenomancers wrote:

The US has the lowest labor participation rate in it's entire history. It's only going to get worse with the coming rise of automation. We don't need more people for any reason. The only thing an unskilled labor force coming into this country ensures is - more people on wellfare / more unpaid medical bills / ect. Plus - that is eventually going to be the norm - because most people will be unemployable in 20 years.

Hence why any futurist worth a damned is pointing out the effective need for a basic income guarantee, much like housing or education and any other social safety net that's been destroyed in the name of immediate profit.

The more automated pieces of crap out there, the more people you need to fix them because some halfwit didn't know what needed to be done in the first place. The more people you need to secure them because their own security is fething pitiful. Outside production lines, automation isn't the threat people think is, until we replace management with people who actually understand the task at hand and actually think through all of the needs, they can't communicate those things to machines. And that's assuming the machines work right and can even do what they're being instructed to do in the first place, which is another point of contention.

But at some point they will, and we need to recognize that blind capitalism and tax cuts for the rich, when said rich folks can potentially afford to replace the rest of humanity, isn't the way to go.

That said, not really an argument against immigration. It's a good argument against capitalism though.

**Kilkrazy**

It's worth noting that the unemployment rate in the USA is currently at its lowest level for 10 years, and the record lowest labor participation rate was back in the 1950s.

Only if you care about facts, though.

**Peregrine**

YeOldSaltPotato wrote:
The more automated pieces of crap out there, the more people you need to fix them because some halfwit didn't know what needed to be done in the first place.

The problem is that those jobs will be skilled labor and many people simply won't be able to qualify for them. You're replacing a bunch of factory workers with a bunch of machines and a maintenance tech to keep them running. The kind of person that is ability-wise limited to simple labor on an assembly line is going to be unemployed forever, the higher-skill jobs will not be an option. And, worse, automation means much more complexity in machines. It's like how things are with cars now. You used to be able to have your local mechanic fix pretty much anything on your car because the systems were all simple mechanical ones. Now if, say, the engine computer has a problem all you can do is pull the entire box out and buy a replacement. That's a great situation if you're a software engineer in charge of your factory's automation systems, it's not such a great thing if you aren't.

Now, our xenophobe draws the exact wrong conclusion here by assuming that illegal immigration is the problem when it really isn't. The kind of post-capitalism system that can cope with the majority of the population being unemployable has no concept of "not being able to afford welfare for immigrants" because financial cost is no longer relevant. But they're right about the threat of automation being a massive one. Broken clocks and blind squirrels...