Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 lolman1c wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Moriarty wrote:
Void?

Don't mix systems, it only confuses the Grots.

Void Whales are massive space beasts that live in the void and can swallow whole worlds (or WAAAAAGHS).

You scare the Snottlings and then the headers will get mad.

Pft. The Snotlings are always scared.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On a seperate note, it took a lot of will power to keep working on my Primaris Imperial Fists instead of starting a Blood Axe kill team full of too many conversions in prep for the new Ork stuff. The allure of that new buggy was that good.

Thankfully I've fortified my will, ordered a sheet of FW Fist transfers and moved on for now.

SemperMortis wrote:
The new models look great, but I will be holding back my praise until I see some damn rules that make them worth taking. Last edition we all got so excited about the Mork/Gorkanauts, only to find out that they are basically crap and only for fluffy games at most.

And I will not be listening to Reece or any other "experts" or "Playtesters" as the last time we did that we heard that Killa Kanz and Stompas would be super amazing!

i can see it. the last big model release we got only had one efficient model (the mek gun) and the others sucked (wazbom jet, gmorkanaut,flashgitz), so history makes many of us very pessimistic about his, i cant blame you.

though the dark eldar were bad for a long time, but with 8th editions codex they rose really quick to the top of the charts. we might be in luck that this edition because it seems GW actually cares about giving good rules to their players (the only exceptions seem to be admek and grew knights). only time will tell. regardless ill buy that box set because i want to have a gorkamorka light type game to play with my bro, and if the codex sucks ill email subdued words of disappointment to GW, and then wait to see if anything changes in chapter approved (there is always a chance that book can change things up and a way for GW to fix mistakes with armies)

geargutz wrote:
though the dark eldar were bad for a long time, but with 8th editions codex they rose really quick to the top of the charts. we might be in luck that this edition because it seems GW actually cares about giving good rules to their players (the only exceptions seem to be admek and grew knights). only time will tell. regardless ill buy that box set because i want to have a gorkamorka light type game to play with my bro, and if the codex sucks ill email subdued words of disappointment to GW, and then wait to see if anything changes in chapter approved (there is always a chance that book can change things up and a way for GW to fix mistakes with armies)

Not be the voice of pessimism - but DE stats were always quite good, its just they were expensive and thus fragile. You make everything cheap and slightly up the damage in certain areas and suddenly its top tier. In 7th they were just glass, in 8th they are just cannon.

To save Ork shooting units (which is a large proportion of the roster) they need a rule that they always hit on 5s. Unfortunately I don't see them getting it. A rule saying they always hit on 6s would be nice - but that still means you are 50% effective against most Eldar lists, Alpha Legion, Ravenguard etc. Which is going to mean these units are pretty terrible in a tournament where you are going to find such matches.

But Green tide is quasi-effective now, and with a codex of buffs could easily be top tier.

Tyel wrote:
To save Ork shooting units (which is a large proportion of the roster) they need a rule that they always hit on 5s. Unfortunately I don't see them getting it. A rule saying they always hit on 6s would be nice - but that still means you are 50% effective against most Eldar lists, Alpha Legion, Ravenguard etc. Which is going to mean these units are pretty terrible in a tournament where you are going to find such matches.

The other fix that our shooting units require is for their guns to do more shots. If our shooting weapons are given more shots AND we get the '6s always hit' rule I could see our shooting becoming viable.

Without both of these fixes we're going to be in trouble though, always hitting on 6s with 2 or 1 shot weapons is garbage.

I think always hitting on 6s will not change Ork shooting in any practical way. -2 is not that common, and often requires a spell, stratagem, or proximity to another unit that won't have -2.

Always hitting on 5s will do something, but that will make ork shooting better than or equal to guard vs a lot of armies. Coupled with the fact that orks will have far superior melee under all circumstances I think that just won't happen.

You're probably looking at increasing the number of shots or making flamers better in the ork army. Or simply allowing there to be a weakness to -tohit. Which I think is okay too.

It will be interesting to see what GW does to try and fix the steaming pile of crap that is our 8th edition index. and before the GW fanboys jump in and say "YOU ORKZ ARE DOING GOOD WITH YOUR INDEX!" yeah...great....thanks, every single game I play I want to bring at least 200 models. That argument has gotten old a long time ago. That is equivalent to the SM index being a dumpster fire but scouts are amazing with close combat weapons, so every Marine player is obligated to bring 60-100 of them to every game and then bring in a few random choices to fill out the list.

What I really want from our codex is for GW to fix the massive issues with our index. The #1 issue being that nothing is worth taking over boyz, and I don't want the fething answer to be "Nerf boyz" because then we won't even have to argue with anyone about whose codex is completely bottom tier. Our shooting needs a massive boost, our vehicles need a HUGE durability boost or a massive price cut, our characters and HQs need more and better Auras.

Ok, well that is enough salt for me today, have a good one.

 hollow one wrote:
Always hitting on 5s will do something, but that will make ork shooting better than or equal to guard vs a lot of armies. Coupled with the fact that orks will have far superior melee under all circumstances I think that just won't happen.

I don't think there is anything wrong with an investment in Ork shooting being as good as Guard (or Marines).

Right now you can put say X points in a boyz mob, or X points in a ork flyer (or flash gitz or lootaz or...) that just shoots. If the Ork flyer is mathematically bad then you shouldn't take it. The fact that ork boyz are good in melee doesn't really matter because you can't have both. If there was some synergy that having one mob of boyz and one flyer (or flash gitz etc) was better than two mobs of boyz then it might hold up - but there isn't and its hard to imagine what that would be. So you are just going to go with more boyz like under the index.

The problem with adding shots is that a 50%/100% skew on performance is too much. If you make a big shoota say mathematically "okay" hitting on 6s, its going to be a monster on those armies where you are hitting on 5s. Lets say you could get a 25%~ return from hitting on 6s - which wouldn't be that great metawise looking at IG, Eldar, Tau, Tyranid shooting etc but it isn't awful. You would be getting 50% on 5s. Which would be quite broken.

On the other hand if you price it so you get a 25-30% return on 5s, and you always get 5s, it might not be too bad. Its not setting the world alight (DE can easily get 40-50% return shooting the right targets) but its not so awful that taking these units is madness.

Really this is why I don't think blanket -1s to hit should be in the game - or they should be for armies like Harlequins where they can be baked in to the unit costs. Changing Alaitoc especially would really alter the competitive scene.

Makes rather ironic when during 3-7 editions people were glamouring for shooting modifiers as The Holy Grail.

Tyel wrote:

The problem with adding shots is that a 50%/100% skew on performance is too much. If you make a big shoota say mathematically "okay" hitting on 6s, its going to be a monster on those armies where you are hitting on 5s. Lets say you could get a 25%~ return from hitting on 6s - which wouldn't be that great metawise looking at IG, Eldar, Tau, Tyranid shooting etc but it isn't awful. You would be getting 50% on 5s. Which would be quite broken.

On the other hand if you price it so you get a 25-30% return on 5s, and you always get 5s, it might not be too bad. Its not setting the world alight (DE can easily get 40-50% return shooting the right targets) but its not so awful that taking these units is madness.

Really this is why I don't think blanket -1s to hit should be in the game - or they should be for armies like Harlequins where they can be baked in to the unit costs. Changing Alaitoc especially would really alter the competitive scene.

I dont think that ork shooting can be fixed in 8th edition without breaking a lot of rules. It will be interesting to see how they will solve it in the codex but i suspect that orks will be forced to be an even more one dimensional close combat army.

I think boys should stay BS5 WS3, but that ranged things like lootas and tank bustas should be BS4 WS4. It would seem lore appropriate as orks are predisposed to certain clans and types or warfare. I see no reason that an ork predisposed to shooting like a loota or a big mek who enjoys his shokk attack gun would be predisposed to not be able to hit with the thing better than melee fighters or that they spend as much time punching and slicing as an ork boy ork nob or komando to get that WS3.

heck at what shooting costs in the index I think BS3 WS5 for our ranged units would actually fix lootas, but every other faction would riot that orks are shooting liek space marines even though they are genetically predisposed to be a specific shooting unit.

Tyel wrote:

 hollow one wrote:
Always hitting on 5s will do something, but that will make ork shooting better than or equal to guard vs a lot of armies. Coupled with the fact that orks will have far superior melee under all circumstances I think that just won't happen.

I don't think there is anything wrong with an investment in Ork shooting being as good as Guard (or Marines).

Right now you can put say X points in a boyz mob, or X points in a ork flyer (or flash gitz or lootaz or...) that just shoots. If the Ork flyer is mathematically bad then you shouldn't take it. The fact that ork boyz are good in melee doesn't really matter because you can't have both. If there was some synergy that having one mob of boyz and one flyer (or flash gitz etc) was better than two mobs of boyz then it might hold up - but there isn't and its hard to imagine what that would be. So you are just going to go with more boyz like under the index.

I don't really understand what you're saying here. If the Ork flyer is mathematically good, then you take it and take some boyz, right? How is that hard to imagine, that is very common in army composition across heaps of codexes. Isn't that like the IG army that takes a Shadowsword and 16 bullgryn, or a Castellan and 60 guardsman, shining spears and dark reapers, etc. Their synergy is playing with the strengths of each unit to have an army with fewer weaknesses. It just so happens that Ork boyz are very efficient, but I personally think that you must be bringing minimum 10 KMKs in order to have a fighting chance in the meta right now, and it would not be better if those points were in boyz. If there was a blanket rule that made KMKs shoot better I think that would be a mistake, including making them always hit on 5s.

Tyel wrote:

 hollow one wrote:
Always hitting on 5s will do something, but that will make ork shooting better than or equal to guard vs a lot of armies. Coupled with the fact that orks will have far superior melee under all circumstances I think that just won't happen.

I don't think there is anything wrong with an investment in Ork shooting being as good as Guard (or Marines).

Right now you can put say X points in a boyz mob, or X points in a ork flyer (or flash gitz or lootaz or...) that just shoots. If the Ork flyer is mathematically bad then you shouldn't take it. The fact that ork boyz are good in melee doesn't really matter because you can't have both. If there was some synergy that having one mob of boyz and one flyer (or flash gitz etc) was better than two mobs of boyz then it might hold up - but there isn't and its hard to imagine what that would be. So you are just going to go with more boyz like under the index.

The problem with adding shots is that a 50%/100% skew on performance is too much. If you make a big shoota say mathematically "okay" hitting on 6s, its going to be a monster on those armies where you are hitting on 5s. Lets say you could get a 25%~ return from hitting on 6s - which wouldn't be that great metawise looking at IG, Eldar, Tau, Tyranid shooting etc but it isn't awful. You would be getting 50% on 5s. Which would be quite broken.

On the other hand if you price it so you get a 25-30% return on 5s, and you always get 5s, it might not be too bad. Its not setting the world alight (DE can easily get 40-50% return shooting the right targets) but its not so awful that taking these units is madness.

Really this is why I don't think blanket -1s to hit should be in the game - or they should be for armies like Harlequins where they can be baked in to the unit costs. Changing Alaitoc especially would really alter the competitive scene.

I have always said that. The only real way to put an end to deathstars or spam and make them both equally viable so people take them both. Make it where I want to give up 30-50 boyz for a Morkanaut.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 hollow one wrote:

Tyel wrote:

 hollow one wrote:
Always hitting on 5s will do something, but that will make ork shooting better than or equal to guard vs a lot of armies. Coupled with the fact that orks will have far superior melee under all circumstances I think that just won't happen.

I don't think there is anything wrong with an investment in Ork shooting being as good as Guard (or Marines).

Right now you can put say X points in a boyz mob, or X points in a ork flyer (or flash gitz or lootaz or...) that just shoots. If the Ork flyer is mathematically bad then you shouldn't take it. The fact that ork boyz are good in melee doesn't really matter because you can't have both. If there was some synergy that having one mob of boyz and one flyer (or flash gitz etc) was better than two mobs of boyz then it might hold up - but there isn't and its hard to imagine what that would be. So you are just going to go with more boyz like under the index.

I don't really understand what you're saying here. If the Ork flyer is mathematically good, then you take it and take some boyz, right? How is that hard to imagine, that is very common in army composition across heaps of codexes. Isn't that like the IG army that takes a Shadowsword and 16 bullgryn, or a Castellan and 60 guardsman, shining spears and dark reapers, etc. Their synergy is playing with the strengths of each unit to have an army with fewer weaknesses. It just so happens that Ork boyz are very efficient, but I personally think that you must be bringing minimum 10 KMKs in order to have a fighting chance in the meta right now, and it would not be better if those points were in boyz. If there was a blanket rule that made KMKs shoot better I think that would be a mistake, including making them always hit on 5s.

Well gw fixed mek gun spam accidentally when the priced them at a stupidly high price. Why would I ever spend £280 on such a small part of my army unless I was a competitive player. So the casual world has been spared of ork mek gun spam.

 hollow one wrote:
I don't really understand what you're saying here. If the Ork flyer is mathematically good, then you take it and take some boyz, right? How is that hard to imagine, that is very common in army composition across heaps of codexes. Isn't that like the IG army that takes a Shadowsword and 16 bullgryn, or a Castellan and 60 guardsman, shining spears and dark reapers, etc. Their synergy is playing with the strengths of each unit to have an army with fewer weaknesses. It just so happens that Ork boyz are very efficient, but I personally think that you must be bringing minimum 10 KMKs in order to have a fighting chance in the meta right now, and it would not be better if those points were in boyz. If there was a blanket rule that made KMKs shoot better I think that would be a mistake, including making them always hit on 5s.

Well I might be interpreting you wrong.

As I see it you were saying (a fairly common argument) that since Ork assault is good, its fine their shooting is bad. It would be imbalanced if they were good at both.
My point is that this isn't how the game works. It could be - with a much stricter limit on what you could take - but right now it isn't.
Having a list of good assault and bad shooting units doesn't encourage you to take a mix. You just double down on the good assault units.

Now okay you mentioned KMKs - but they are reasonable. And pretty uniquely so amongst the shooting options (I mean compared to other mek gun options alone). I agree you probably want them or Tankbustas. I don't think they are top tier - but they are a world ahead of Ork flyers, Flash Gitz, Lootas, buggies and so on.

I mean you can say "Dark Reapers are great, and this justifies why Storm Guardians are comically awful" but when is the last time you saw a Storm Guardian (inb4 last night with my friend's Saim Hann Avatar Footdar list)? You see Spears because they are solid (especially Ynnari spears). If they were bad you wouldn't.

I guess what I am trying to say is that Ork shooting units should all put their weight. Theoretically, for their points, they should all be as good as KMKs.

Rumoured traits from 4chan:
Goffs: 6s in melee generate additionnal attack.
Bad Moons: Reroll 1s in shooting phase
Evil Sunz: +1" move, advance and charge. No -1 penalty when advancing and firing assault weapons
Death Skullz: 6+ invulnerable save army-wide. Some sort of reroll mechanic (à la Salamanders?)
Snakebites: 6+ FNP
Freebooterz: +1 to hit when a Freebooterz unit destroyed a unit earlier in the turn.
Blood Axes: Gain cover in the open. Can shoot or charge after falling back.

Obviously source is extremely unreliable, so posting in the speculation thread. Inclusion of Freebooterz as a clan makes me even more sceptical since I've never seen GW treat them as such after 1st edition.

If true, these seem fairly bad, but in a way which strikes me as very GW.

Evil Sunz seem like the obvious best option, as I predicted they would be, but their ability benefits slower units rather than fast ones, encouraging you to take infantry, walkers, etc.
Goffs, could be poor or terrible depending on if it's a natural 6 or a 6+ they get the thing on. If the latter, not much use for power klaw users. Suffers from making orks better at the one thing they are good at, not compensating for weakness.
Bad Moonz, seems bad unless ork shooting is seriously improved. Only really worth it for units with 4+ BS and kustom mega weapons. Wouldn't be surprised if grots didn't even get the benefit though.
Snake Bites is OK, but makes painboys a bit redundant, which is contrary to SB having a lot of them. If it gives +1 to the painboy aura effect then it's actually good.
Blood Axes is questionable. Good synergy with kommandos at least. Nice for vehicle lists.
Deffskulls is mostly useless. Reinforces my general inclination to switch to ES if this is true. Invulnerable save is not worth much and a single reroll is unlikely to be helpful in an army which emphasises numbers over quality. Small chance it could be OK if it allows any dice to be rerolled, since that would let you reroll the number of shots for lootas and burnas.
EDIT: Freebootaz might be the best of the lot if it works for shooting and fighting but of course it encourages you to take an army of nothing but freebootaz, not a small detachment.

Oh for the love of Gork, please don't let this be true. They're all super meh in my opinion. Some might be useful but they're really boring.

Also evil sunz being the go to trait for footslogging armies is my nightmare

Yeah evil suns seems super good. I could see Bad Moons also be good on units with high volume of shots such as shoota boys or lootas.

IF true snakebites would be the one I would avoid like plague. FNP on horde models is horrible time soaker.

Effective flak armor for Blood Axes is decent. Not OP but helpful. The falling back bonus could help shoota boyz against poxwalkers or other big tarpits.

tneva82 wrote:
Makes rather ironic when during 3-7 editions people were glamouring for shooting modifiers as The Holy Grail.

Nothing wrong with shooting modifiers, even for orks, as long as you can get positive ones as well as the negative ones.

Say a "take aim" action for models that don't move (excluding "heavy" weapons, which get the penalty if the move), maybe a strategem to provide a further +1, or +1 at pistol range or something.

its the way we only have negatives thats the issue currently.

Personally I'd give orks BS:4+, but have a rule so units of 20+ have a -1 to hit as they start to get rowdy (so you can have the +1 attack of a large mob, or effective shooting, but not both - maybe just units of up to 10 - so the fire support orks work, but the larger mobs don't become gunlines. Maybe call it "easily distracted" or something

The more I think about the evil sunz trait the less I understand it. That trait does next to nothing for a speed freeks army but helps almost every other ork build quite a bit. Well okay, not next to nothing just comparatively less..

I had previously suggested that the evil sunz trait would only affect vehicles (maybe specify vehicles further) and bikes and grant +3" movement and the ability to advance and charge in the same turn. This would make transports more viable and everything zooming around the board just a little bit better..

PiñaColada wrote:
The more I think about the evil sunz trait the less I understand it. That trait does next to nothing for a speed freeks army but helps almost every other ork build quite a bit.

I had previously suggested that the evil sunz trait would only affect vehicles (maybe specify vehicles further) and bikes and grant +3" movement and the ability to advance and charge in the same turn. This would make transports more viable and everything zooming around the board just a little bit better..

Can seen Evil Sunz having a "move again" strategem as thier thing, then the trait just makes other things a little bit faster

Can see Blood Axes having what the Jorumgederereeeder Nids have, count as in cover in the open, lost if they charge or advance, with an infiltration strat of something to do with pre-game movement

Goffs getting "can fall back and charge again", plus a strategem to grant bonus attacks (and a generic ork one for "fight again"

can see Bad Moons getting a bonus to shooting if they stand still

Snakebites maybe get some sort of psi bonus or shut down

can see DeffSkulls getting FnP from warpaint

Think the traits won't do a vast amount, which I'm happy with, small bonuses, but then a clan strategem thats perhaps a bit more useful

I suggest Tyranids are probably not a bad model for the sort of traits

The Evil Sunz tactic is really uninspired and pretty disappointing to be honest, if it's correct.

As expected it benefits infantry heavy lists most which is as anti Evil Sunz as you can get.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
The Evil Sunz tactic is really uninspired and pretty disappointing to be honest, if it's correct.

As expected it benefits infantry heavy lists most which is as anti Evil Sunz as you can get.

No reason such a trait couldn't have "units with they <vehicle? keyword only" attached though>

leopard wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
The Evil Sunz tactic is really uninspired and pretty disappointing to be honest, if it's correct.

As expected it benefits infantry heavy lists most which is as anti Evil Sunz as you can get.

No reason such a trait couldn't have "units with they <vehicle? keyword only" attached though>

It'd need to be "vehicle" and "bike" (since they also do bikes) to work properly. Then again, then you'd end up with fast jogging Deff Dreads I guess.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

leopard wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
The Evil Sunz tactic is really uninspired and pretty disappointing to be honest, if it's correct.

As expected it benefits infantry heavy lists most which is as anti Evil Sunz as you can get.

No reason such a trait couldn't have "units with they <vehicle? keyword only" attached though>

It'd need to be "vehicle" and "bike" (since they also do bikes) to work properly. Then again, then you'd end up with fast jogging Deff Dreads I guess.

true, would be like GW to give it to all vehicles (I thought bikes were vehicles?, if not then yes Bikes & vehicles), will make walkers a bit faster, not seeing a problem to be honest with that.

Whatever they do there will be evidence that the law of unintended consequences is in full effect

 Perfect Organism wrote:
Rumoured traits from 4chan:

Goffs: 6s in melee generate additionnal attack.
Bad Moons: Reroll 1s in shooting phase
Evil Sunz: +1" move, advance and charge. No -1 penalty when advancing and firing assault weapons
Death Skullz: 6+ invulnerable save army-wide. Some sort of reroll mechanic (à la Salamanders?)
Snakebites: 6+ FNP
Freebooterz: +1 to hit when a Freebooterz unit destroyed a unit earlier in the turn.
Blood Axes: Gain cover in the open. Can shoot or charge after falling back.

.

I'll eat my favorite squig if this is true. I think it's too early for any rumors (reliable rumors have been few and far between in recent years), and these are so completely zogging boring I could have guessed them 6 months ago.

And many don't make sense - like the blood axe one seems too good. It combines 2 different tyranid 'chapter tactics', plus being able to shoot.

IDK, my thought is that if chapter master valrak makes a youtube video of it, I automatically toss it out.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

leopard wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
The Evil Sunz tactic is really uninspired and pretty disappointing to be honest, if it's correct.

As expected it benefits infantry heavy lists most which is as anti Evil Sunz as you can get.

No reason such a trait couldn't have "units with they <vehicle? keyword only" attached though>

It'd need to be "vehicle" and "bike" (since they also do bikes) to work properly. Then again, then you'd end up with fast jogging Deff Dreads I guess.

Lol at the fast jogging Deff Dread. Seems legit.

I know it would be weaker but I'd prefer it if they did this. At least it would encourage some sort of fluffy play.

Let the Boyz keep the no neg modifier on the assault weapons though.

I always thought the evil suns vehicles tactics would be -1 to hit for vehicles and bikes. dunno about infantry

 Billagio wrote:
I always thought the evil suns vehicles tactics would be -1 to hit for vehicles and bikes. dunno about infantry

I feel like GW are moving away from - 1 to hit traits, thankfully. The last codex that got it was eldar I believe and one of the space wolves stratagems that has the same effect cost 3cp. I hope they change all instances of that trait in the big faq/CA

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

leopard wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
The Evil Sunz tactic is really uninspired and pretty disappointing to be honest, if it's correct.

As expected it benefits infantry heavy lists most which is as anti Evil Sunz as you can get.

No reason such a trait couldn't have "units with they <vehicle? keyword only" attached though>

It'd need to be "vehicle" and "bike" (since they also do bikes) to work properly. Then again, then you'd end up with fast jogging Deff Dreads I guess.

Lol at the fast jogging Deff Dread. Seems legit.

I know it would be weaker but I'd prefer it if they did this. At least it would encourage some sort of fluffy play.

Let the Boyz keep the no neg modifier on the assault weapons though.

Just model the dread so he has track feet or has wheels I guess?