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tneva82 wrote:

fe40k wrote:

Snakebites > Deffskullz; on the basis that you can get a Inv5+ from KFF on any target, but not a 6+++FNP on any target, only boyz. I'm imagining that the die RR is a toned down version of the Salamander trait; and given that most Orks will be in large squads, so re-rolling 1 die is kind of whatever. Might be good for a vehicle based army, however...

OTOH if you want to protect boyz with 5++ then for ~200 boyz you basically will need 2-3 KFF's. If any boyz are outside then that will get swatted so KFF isn't being that helpful. Dethskull allows skipping that 2-3KFF tax.

that and an enemy with snipers can drop the KFF mek without a vast amount of trouble if they want to, not everyone can but removing the ability for an enemy to do that has value.

My lot are painted as Blood Axes, and staying that way regardless, do find myself hoping the 'counts as in cover' is like the Tyranid one and applies to everything, possibly until you advance or charge, useful for battle wagons and trukks, oh and deff dreads

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

This is not terrible. Orks typically have a very high volume of attacks and negative modifiers are rare in melee so I can see a lot of use for this as well as strong synergy with the WAAAGGHHH banner. 20 boys attacking a unit is 80 attacks and with a banner near by 1/3 will trigger additional attacks that hit on twos. That's a LOT of choppy. Smaller squads however won't gain very much and power klaws will never get it unless it's unmodified sixes in which case the banner won't do diddly.

OTOH smaller squads actually benefit more often as big squads will overkill target ANYWAY. And frankly I don't get to charge with big squads often. Even 20 squad charging is rare due to enemy casualties. They fire squad <20 and then move toward next. So this helps compensating casualties on small squads.

This one seems solid and reliable. In high body count armies or high wound models this will come in handy. It effectively increases the wounds of your army by 16%. If it has any specific synergy with the pain boyz remain to be seen. As is they would be useless as the FNP would not stack, but if the rule specifies it does then that adds a lot of beef. FNP on a vehicle and ork boys could be great as we see with dark eldar and how good it is on their 6-10 wound vehicles.

Chance is same as dethskulls...Except dethskull isn't negated by multidamage weapon.

Plus in tournament unviable. It takes tons of time with dark eldars. 200 models rolling 2-3 dice per model? Yeah that's going to take a time.

tneva82 wrote:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

This is not terrible. Orks typically have a very high volume of attacks and negative modifiers are rare in melee so I can see a lot of use for this as well as strong synergy with the WAAAGGHHH banner. 20 boys attacking a unit is 80 attacks and with a banner near by 1/3 will trigger additional attacks that hit on twos. That's a LOT of choppy. Smaller squads however won't gain very much and power klaws will never get it unless it's unmodified sixes in which case the banner won't do diddly.

OTOH smaller squads actually benefit more often as big squads will overkill target ANYWAY. And frankly I don't get to charge with big squads often. Even 20 squad charging is rare due to enemy casualties. They fire squad <20 and then move toward next. So this helps compensating casualties on small squads.

This one seems solid and reliable. In high body count armies or high wound models this will come in handy. It effectively increases the wounds of your army by 16%. If it has any specific synergy with the pain boyz remain to be seen. As is they would be useless as the FNP would not stack, but if the rule specifies it does then that adds a lot of beef. FNP on a vehicle and ork boys could be great as we see with dark eldar and how good it is on their 6-10 wound vehicles.

Chance is same as dethskulls...Except dethskull isn't negated by multidamage weapon.

Plus in tournament unviable. It takes tons of time with dark eldars. 200 models rolling 2-3 dice per model? Yeah that's going to take a time.

at this point i am just amazed when people do not use a dice rolling app for hordes. GW even has their official one in case they are worried about cheating. have never seen a tournament organizer ban the official gw app.

tneva82 wrote:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

This is not terrible. Orks typically have a very high volume of attacks and negative modifiers are rare in melee so I can see a lot of use for this as well as strong synergy with the WAAAGGHHH banner. 20 boys attacking a unit is 80 attacks and with a banner near by 1/3 will trigger additional attacks that hit on twos. That's a LOT of choppy. Smaller squads however won't gain very much and power klaws will never get it unless it's unmodified sixes in which case the banner won't do diddly.

OTOH smaller squads actually benefit more often as big squads will overkill target ANYWAY. And frankly I don't get to charge with big squads often. Even 20 squad charging is rare due to enemy casualties. They fire squad <20 and then move toward next. So this helps compensating casualties on small squads.

This one seems solid and reliable. In high body count armies or high wound models this will come in handy. It effectively increases the wounds of your army by 16%. If it has any specific synergy with the pain boyz remain to be seen. As is they would be useless as the FNP would not stack, but if the rule specifies it does then that adds a lot of beef. FNP on a vehicle and ork boys could be great as we see with dark eldar and how good it is on their 6-10 wound vehicles.

Chance is same as dethskulls...Except dethskull isn't negated by multidamage weapon.

Plus in tournament unviable. It takes tons of time with dark eldars. 200 models rolling 2-3 dice per model? Yeah that's going to take a time.

The FNP I find superior to the invuln because you may very well get your normal save and the FNP. Also if I was shot by a lascannon I would honesty rather have the 6+ FNP than a 6+ invuln because 5/6 times the invuln will do nothing where as the FNP will have a greater chance of actually mattering by reducing the damage you take by one. This would also synergize will with a kff bubble and if it stacks with painboys for a 5+++ thats amazing or if it doesn't that's at least points saved by not paying for the painboy.

 G00fySmiley wrote:

at this point i am just amazed when people do not use a dice rolling app for hordes. GW even has their official one in case they are worried about cheating. have never seen a tournament organizer ban the official gw app.

Dice app wouldn't be much help since FNP would consist easily dozens of 2-3 rolls that are together. So that's not say 60 dice together counting how many 6's you roll. Opponent first has to potentially roll for damage, then you roll 1-6 dice, repeat...Dice app or not that's going to eat a ton of time.

Besides as for cheating...You know without taking in opponents phone and doing specific check there's no way to actually know does he USE official app or custom made that looks like it. I could do one if I so wanted...If you want to avoid cheating with app in tournament for sure pretty much only way is for tournament to PROVIDE phones/tablets with that software to be used. Realistic? I don't think so!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
The FNP I find superior to the invuln because you may very well get your normal save and the FNP. Also if I was shot by a lascannon I would honesty rather have the 6+ FNP than a 6+ invuln because 5/6 times the invuln will do nothing where as the FNP will have a greater chance of actually mattering by reducing the damage you take by one. This would also synergize will with a kff bubble and if it stacks with painboys for a 5+++ thats amazing or if it doesn't that's at least points saved by not paying for the painboy.

Average reduction vs lascannon is actually same. However inv save will make boy survive 1/6 time. FNP more like 1/36(first opponent rolling 1, then you rolling 6). Rest of the time it adds up to lots of dice rolling with little difference.

And deth skull saves you from buying 2-3 mek's with KFF.

This is pure wishlisting, but it might be cool if they had a bundle with the Mek Gun and the rumored Mek Shop to save money on them.

It also might be interesting if the rumored HQ Wartrike was almost more like a chariot vehicle for any Ork character that allowed the character to hide and fight as if a normal character on a bike but then also the character could disembark.

Ok, so people are writing off the Bad Moons as being a little lame, so I decided to run the numbers when both their trait and dakkadakkadakka are in effect: and it would seem that they get the equivalent of BS 4+ (i.e. they land half of their original number of shots).
Since I kinda like the bad moons, I think it turned out pretty good.

Dandelion wrote:
Ok, so people are writing off the Bad Moons as being a little lame, so I decided to run the numbers when both their trait and dakkadakkadakka are in effect: and it would seem that they get the equivalent of BS 4+ (i.e. they land half of their original number of shots).
Since I kinda like the bad moons, I think it turned out pretty good.

I think bad moons is fine, getting it on KMKs and lootas will be great. Would I take it as a main detachment? No, but It definitely has its place in a spearhead or something.

If I did the math right you're correct, it's just a tiny bit worse than BS 4+. Only it takes a lot more rolling.

On the other hand all the Clans get DakkaDakkaDakka (if the rumor holds true) so the Bad Moon trait in some ways should be judged on its own.

We don't know the special warlord traits and stratagems yet though, and that could make a difference.

 Dakka Flakka Flame wrote:
If I did the math right you're correct, it's just a tiny bit worse than BS 4+. Only it takes a lot more rolling.

On the other hand all the Clans get DakkaDakkaDakka (if the rumor holds true) so the Bad Moon trait in some ways should be judged on its own.

We don't know the special warlord traits and stratagems yet though, and that could make a difference.

Agreed, I have a feeling that everyones already favorite teleport stratagem is going to be clan specific (and probably blood axe or something which will be a disappointment to everyone drooling all over Evil Sun)

I like all the traits honestly.

I think Blood Axes are very, very strong too and might be a good contender to Evil Sunz. Ironically it might make them more maneuverable than Evil Sunz.

tneva82 wrote:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
The FNP I find superior to the invuln because you may very well get your normal save and the FNP. Also if I was shot by a lascannon I would honesty rather have the 6+ FNP than a 6+ invuln because 5/6 times the invuln will do nothing where as the FNP will have a greater chance of actually mattering by reducing the damage you take by one. This would also synergize will with a kff bubble and if it stacks with painboys for a 5+++ thats amazing or if it doesn't that's at least points saved by not paying for the painboy.

Average reduction vs lascannon is actually same. However inv save will make boy survive 1/6 time. FNP more like 1/36(first opponent rolling 1, then you rolling 6). Rest of the time it adds up to lots of dice rolling with little difference.

And deth skull saves you from buying 2-3 mek's with KFF.

I will admit a 6+ invuln would be better for boys against lascannons sure, but the FNP would be better against weapons that are meant for anti horde and not anti-tank or elite firepower like dissy cannons. The 6+ is also half as good as the KFF field so I'd hardly say it saves you from buying them it just makes them less effective cost ratio wise. For a big vehicle convoy you'd probably be paying up for the proper 5++ invuln and then past that you'd also get the snakebite FNP to shave a bit more off the top. I really don't see the 6++ being the best option to protect your stuff when alternatively you can give it 6+++ to ignore wounds (better protection for your hordes and things that are important and already have a 5++) or counts as being in cover from blood axes to give a straight up +1 armor save which for our 3+ and 4+ vehicles that's a pretty solid value that even if you get hit by ap-3 you'd be better or equal out a 6++ invuln anyways.

Edit: see second post below

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
I like all the traits honestly.

I think Blood Axes are very, very strong too and might be a good contender to Evil Sunz. Ironically it might make them more maneuverable than Evil Sunz.

Those are my two favorite klans and play styles I R Hapy Ork

As far as Badmoons klan trait...yeah it sucks. Using an absurd number (180) you get 60 hits, 30 rerolls and 30 second shots. The 30 rerolls net you 10 more hits and the 30 secondary shots get you 10 more as well with 5 more rerolls which is 1.66 more hits so 21-22ish so that brings you up to 81-82 hits which is 45% accuracy or 5% less then a 4+ to hit. However, as has already been mentioned, ALL orkz apparently get Dakka Dakka Dakka, so in reality, it is only an increase of 10 hits out of that 180 not 21 so that is a 39% accuracy rate, or 6% better then a 5+ to hit and 11% worse then a 4+ to hit

basically it sucks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

fe40k wrote:
Guys, can someone check my math please? I did a squad of [30 Shoota Boyz, +DakkaDakkaDakka, +RR1's (Bad Moons)], against MEQ (T4, Sv3+):

EDIT: My math is all wrong, and I know why.

I'll try to re-calculate; but incase someone can do it faster: Can someone calculate the total hits/increase DakkaDakkaDakka+RR1s provides to a full, 30 man, Shoota Boy squad?

60 shots = 20 hits, 10 rerolls and 10 6s to redo. the 10 extra shots = 3.3 extra hits and about 2 rolls of a 1 for 12 total rerolls which is 4 extra hits for a grand total of 27 hits which against T4 = 13.5 wounds and a 3+ save = about 4.5 Dead Marines. Or another way to look at that is 180pts of Shoota boyz killing about 60pts of Speese Mehreens which is actually perfect for where i say shooting should be (1/3rd rule, it should take 3x as much points to kill something in the shooting phase).

60 shots, 6+ new attack, RR1

First volley
/Total hits
[60]*.333*.5*.333 = 3.326 MEQ slain
[60*.333*.5] = 9.99 new attacks
/Total misses
[40.02*.25]*.333*.5*.333 = 0.055 MEQ slain
[40.02*.25*.333*.5] = 0.166 new attacks

Extra attacks generated; 9.99+0.166=10.156
/Total hits
[10.156]*.333*.5*.333 = 0.563 MEQ slain
/Total misses
[6.774*.25]*.333*.5*.333 = 0.093 MEQ slain

= 3.326 MEQ slain, base
3.326+0.055+0.563+0.093 = 4.037 MEQ slain, combined total
0.711 difference/3.326*100
= 21.377% increase

---

Math is weird, but this looks about right to me. The % increase is only useful against MEQ, not in cover; so I'd have to re-calculate for GEQ, and others... so, take it as it is, and nothing more.

Of course, it all falls apart against a -1 to-hit, so...

fe40k wrote:
Guys, can someone check my math please? I did a squad of [30 Shoota Boyz, +DakkaDakkaDakka, +RR1's (Bad Moons)], against MEQ (T4, Sv3+):

EDIT: My math is all wrong, and I know why.

I'll try to re-calculate; but incase someone can do it faster: Can someone calculate the total hits/increase DakkaDakkaDakka+RR1s provides to a full, 30 man, Shoota Boy squad?

As I see it your odds of hitting are the follows:

Regular shooting = 1/3.
Regular shooting plus dakkadakkadakka. 1/3+(1/6*1/3=1/18.) =7/18.
Regular shooting plus dakkadakkadakka with reroll 1s= 7/18+(1/6*7/18=7/108)=49/108.

Rounding up: 36/108, 42/108 and 49/108.

WIth say 60 shots you go from 20, to 23.333~ to 27.222~.

I mean the way to think about it - unless there are other buffs stacked on top - is that the indicated goff and badmoon clan strats would give a 7/6 buff to melee and shooting damage respectively.
Whether that's good or not depends on whether they are efficient choices to begin with. If you are expecting say 15% damage for your points, buffing that to 17.5% still kind of sucks in the current meta.
By contrast you take say a 40% return and buff it 46%, you can see how you move from good to brokenly good (especially if you can stack two of these buffs DE style).

The problem is with various -1 to hit abilities and no sign this is being constrained, ork shooting is typically going to have crap efficiency, so making it 7/6 better may not help as much as the other traits. If the question is "what helps green tide get across the table" then the other traits seem better.
On the other hand this potentially makes baseline KMKs (49/36=36%) more efficient than in the index. Which has... potential.

Another more limited use of the Bad Moons trait would be helping prevent our Kustom Mega weapons from overheating.

If this rumor is accurate and there are no other factors at play I'm not going to be taking Bad Moons shoota boyz just because they'd spend too much time pointlessly re-rolling. I actually think it would be way more of a time sink than a 6+ FNP on Snakebites.

That would be a shame as I like Bad Moon shoota boyz. Of course I really don't know how the rest of the codex might change things and also the rumors might not be true, so I'm definitely not shelving anything yet.

 Dakka Flakka Flame wrote:
Another more limited use of the Bad Moons trait would be helping prevent our Kustom Mega weapons from overheating.

If this rumor is accurate and there are no other factors at play I'm not going to be taking Bad Moons shoota boyz just because they'd spend too much time pointlessly re-rolling. I actually think it would be way more of a time sink than a 6+ FNP on Snakebites.

That would be a shame as I like Bad Moon shoota boyz. Of course I really don't know how the rest of the codex might change things and also the rumors might not be true, so I'm definitely not shelving anything yet.

I wanted Orks to roll the most dice out of any faction.

Little did I know...

Be careful what you wish for.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So if we have 20PL; there's so many options, but...

16PL = 6x Killa Kans
then
4PL = Nob w/ WAAAGH Banner, or a 7th Killa Kan

The Nob w/ Banner is much better for the attack/damage output of 6 KillaKans, but then you need to make two charge rolls instead of one. Alternatively, the 7th KillaKan could rocket forward with a charge 3d6, and get in there that way as well.

It all comes down to the exact wordings and timings of all the strategems... but I'm loving the sound of our options, at least so far. It opens up so many new avenues for units to do their job.

2 Deff Dreads with deff claws. Could add burnas with a spanner to repair the dreads.

Maybe we'll get lucky and there will be a squig release.

I really want to tellyport 20 PL of squigs into the middle of my opponent's lines.

Hmm. So my Bad Moon Shoota boyz might be better off as Evil Suns. My Death Skulls Lootaz might be better off as Bad Moons. My Goff Boyz could go either way.

I already have Blood Axe Kommandos from Killteam, so maybe some blood axe Gretchin to fill out a Battalion? Those lil runs would sure be sneaky.

Ive been avoiding painting camouflage patterns on models, so my Kommandos are in modern military colors instead. I could go army wide with that theme.

You know what... and this will sound weird because everyone know me by now here but, apart from the loss in bike hqs, I'm pretty cool with these rumours. They're fun and useful. Not OP but not the worst. For my army setup especially (vechiles and walker army) the whole extra 6s and the likes just seems good overall as I very rarely came across -2 to hit anyway.

So, you know what.... good job gw. You have me interested. Now don't squig up the points and make our shooting somehow cost double than every other armies like you did in the index!

I'm sad to see that Badmoons is meh for everything but Lootas and KMK's. I have a bunch of BM Meganobz sitting on the shelf.

The leaked stratagems look absolutely bonkers though!

 Eonfuzz wrote:
I'm sad to see that Badmoons is meh for everything but Lootas and KMK's. I have a bunch of BM Meganobz sitting on the shelf.

Bad Moons actually sound pretty meh for Lootas as well. On the other hand, they might be okay with everything that hits on a 4+ and everything that overheats on a 1, which are significantly more units than just KMKs. Without knowing more KMKs sound particularly good for Bad Moons because they both hit on 4+ and overheat on 1s.

It's really hard to judge without knowing what the rest of the codex is like though.

Of course these are still just rumors and we don't really know.

How about Deff skulls SAGs with mek shop and Grot screen?

The max shots and re-rolls could make these guys useful.

I would wait for full rules about mek shop before counting my chickens. Remember what happened with knights. People were drooling over that terrain piece after first leaks. When we got full rules though that thing went into unit that helps OPPONENT if you use it...It's so bad opponent will gladly give you one for free every game in hopes you actually would be silly enough to use it.

Exactly, hold off on getting too psyched up about the mek shop. It could be a sacristian forgeshrine situation and that one deflated peoples hopes fast. Although from the video it sounds like the playtesters liked this one.

Also, I've seen some people theorycrafting its uses. Note that the video only ever says that it works on vehicles, that doesn't mean that it only works only vehicles but assuming it works on anything else as of right now might be a mistake. Besides, logically speaking, a mek shop probably only should buff vehicles?

It would be very weird to release a bunch of really fast vehicles, intended to zoom around the battlefield (probably with short ranged weapons like the Molotov cocktails and Skorcha exhausts), and then also make a terrain piece that buffs shooting for stationary vehicles (only).

Sure, the rules for the Sacristian thing were poorly thought through, but that was built from existing kits, and this one is a new kit which I guess they want to sell?

Unless there are other, shooty vehicles in the codex that benefit, it's all very contradictory. Unless also Artillery is buffed.

Would be great if it buffs Lootas though, because they really, really need both a damage output and a resilience buff.

Uhm orks aren't just about fast vehicles so maybe the release isn't supposed to be just about fast vehicles.

There's also battlewagon(with big weapons), KMK's(which have also vehicle keyword). Not to mention big walkers tend to have random shot guns etc.

yeah, just read that forgeshrine profile, it is indeed bad,forgoing literally doing anything for a turn (even only gets 1 attack if its charged) to get d3 hullpoints/or add 6inches to next move/ or refule one shot wpns or slight buff to guns is bonkers. yeesh, hopefully GW learned from that to make ours better.

man, i wonder how big its going to be. mek shops can be anything from a hole in the wall shedd big enough for a bike repair or a whole warehouse converted from a manufactorum that has multiple killkansz on the racks. i suspect smaller (probably able to fit on a knights base, though i doubt it will be based) and with all the coolest gubbinz (hopefully with open garage door and a gutted buggie on the lift).

gosh, the hype is tooo strong, must not get expectations too high