Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Englishman I love you man, you fight the good fight in YMDC. But you gotta relax on the shooting wishlisting. If we get literally ANY buffs to boyz without a point increase AND we have comparable shooting with IG/eldar... orks will shoot to top teir or first place.

Let's just take a breath and enjoy the army wide buffs that look both measured and impactful.

I'm super happy with the dakka dakka dakka rule. I used the stratagem on Tankbustas and was pleased with its performance. I can't understand people actually complaining getting it FOR FREE for everyone.

I would actually be pretty happy if we only got Dakkadakkadakka, some flavorful and useful Stratagems and (significant) points reductions to make other options outside of Boyz viable. I'd love to run Dreads and Kans but they're just horribly, horribly overcosted.

Looks like this will be the first 8th ed codex I buy since vanilla SM.

Also,can someone explain (or guesstimate) how many squigs will be in that shadespire/warhammer underworlds: nightvault warband? I have no interest nor knowledge of that game but if we can get some standalone squig models I'd buy those in a heartbeat!

Would they be standalone or just part of some box, either in a starter set with two forces or more akin to KTs Krogskullz boyz?

 Weazel wrote:
I'm super happy with the dakka dakka dakka rule. I used the stratagem on Tankbustas and was pleased with its performance. I can't understand people actually complaining getting it FOR FREE for everyone.

I would actually be pretty happy if we only got Dakkadakkadakka, some flavorful and useful Stratagems and (significant) points reductions to make other options outside of Boyz viable. I'd love to run Dreads and Kans but they're just horribly, horribly overcosted.

I haven't seen anyone openly complaining about it, I have seen people sad that they didn't get the 5+ instead of the 6+ but that is about it. As far as throwing shade on this otherwise good day for Orkz, well, if GW doesn't do anything else to address our horrific shooting then we are basically still in the same boat as before, albeit with a 5% increase in our shooting...which isn't enough. 30 Shoota Boyz with index with their 18' gunz were getting 60 shots, 20 hits and 10 wounds VS Marines for a grand total of 3.3 Dead Marines, with Dakka army wide they now get 60 shots, 23 hits and 11.5 (rough math) wounds vs Space Marines which equals 3.7ish Dead Marines. So the increase is marginal at best for our standard shooting units. Don't get me wrong I am excited about this because if nothing else is makes me believe that someone at GW HQ actually understands that ork shooting is abysmal and is attempting to rectify that mistake.

Honestly, I'm more than happy now. If they just gave us the codex with everything we knew it woukd be fine. Only thing that could shut me down is bad points cost.

PiñaColada wrote:
Also,can someone explain (or guesstimate) how many squigs will be in that shadespire/warhammer underworlds: nightvault warband? I have no interest nor knowledge of that game but if we can get some standalone squig models I'd buy those in a heartbeat!

Would they be standalone or just part of some box, either in a starter set with two forces or more akin to KTs Krogskullz boyz?

They will be standalone band. Look up these for Shadespire, should cost the same so pretty cheap. Only the two poster bands are in starter.

As for models, dunno. No one can say, depends on how elite or horde-y they are. WU bands have from 3 to 8 models, I'd bet on ~6 or so...

 Irbis wrote:

PiñaColada wrote:
Also,can someone explain (or guesstimate) how many squigs will be in that shadespire/warhammer underworlds: nightvault warband? I have no interest nor knowledge of that game but if we can get some standalone squig models I'd buy those in a heartbeat!

Would they be standalone or just part of some box, either in a starter set with two forces or more akin to KTs Krogskullz boyz?

They will be standalone band. Look up these for Shadespire, should cost the same so pretty cheap. Only the two poster bands are in starter.

As for models, dunno. No one can say, depends on how elite or horde-y they are. WU bands have from 3 to 8 models, I'd bet on ~6 or so...

Oooh thanks, 17.5 GBP is not bad at all if you get 6(ish) squigs for it. Can never have enough squigs so this feels like an instant buy!

SemperMortis wrote:

 Weazel wrote:
I'm super happy with the dakka dakka dakka rule. I used the stratagem on Tankbustas and was pleased with its performance. I can't understand people actually complaining getting it FOR FREE for everyone.

I would actually be pretty happy if we only got Dakkadakkadakka, some flavorful and useful Stratagems and (significant) points reductions to make other options outside of Boyz viable. I'd love to run Dreads and Kans but they're just horribly, horribly overcosted.

I haven't seen anyone openly complaining about it, I have seen people sad that they didn't get the 5+ instead of the 6+ but that is about it. As far as throwing shade on this otherwise good day for Orkz, well, if GW doesn't do anything else to address our horrific shooting then we are basically still in the same boat as before, albeit with a 5% increase in our shooting...which isn't enough. 30 Shoota Boyz with index with their 18' gunz were getting 60 shots, 20 hits and 10 wounds VS Marines for a grand total of 3.3 Dead Marines, with Dakka army wide they now get 60 shots, 23 hits and 11.5 (rough math) wounds vs Space Marines which equals 3.7ish Dead Marines. So the increase is marginal at best for our standard shooting units. Don't get me wrong I am excited about this because if nothing else is makes me believe that someone at GW HQ actually understands that ork shooting is abysmal and is attempting to rectify that mistake.

5%? Where you got that one. You get 16.666666% more hits than before. And even that 3.7 marines vs 3.3 marines is 12% increase in damage output. Albeit your 3.7 vs 3.3 is still inaccurate as casualty increase is that 16.666666% still. 3.888 dead marines to be specific.

tneva82 wrote:
5%? Where you got that one. You get 16.666666% more hits than before. And even that 3.7 marines vs 3.3 marines is 12% increase in damage output. Albeit your 3.7 vs 3.3 is still inaccurate as casualty increase is that 16.666666% still. 3.888 dead marines to be specific.

It's an additional hit roll on an unmodified roll of 6. So you get a 16.67% chance to roll for another shot. That shot has a 33% chance of hitting. So each shot has a roughly 5% chance of resulting in an extra hit

PiñaColada wrote:
Oooh thanks, 17.5 GBP is not bad at all if you get 6(ish) squigs for it. Can never have enough squigs so this feels like an instant buy!

Might be less actually - if you really have no interest in the game (though it's neat, you might as well try) the cards from the new bands are likely to be in demand from other players (as a lot of them are universal and work with everyone) so you might sell those for extra discount...

PiñaColada wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
5%? Where you got that one. You get 16.666666% more hits than before. And even that 3.7 marines vs 3.3 marines is 12% increase in damage output. Albeit your 3.7 vs 3.3 is still inaccurate as casualty increase is that 16.666666% still. 3.888 dead marines to be specific.

It's an additional hit roll on an unmodified roll of 6. So you get a 16.67% chance to roll for another shot. That shot has a 33% chance of hitting. So each shot has a roughly 5% chance of resulting in an extra hit

Which results in 16.6666% more hits than if you didn't have that rule.

23.333 hits is 16.6666% more hits than 20(using the 30 shoota mob as example).

10 rokkits, from 3.3333 hits to 3.888888 hits which is, funny that, 16.666% more hits than 3.3333.

Irbis wrote:

PiñaColada wrote:
Oooh thanks, 17.5 GBP is not bad at all if you get 6(ish) squigs for it. Can never have enough squigs so this feels like an instant buy!

Might be less actually - if you really have no interest in the game (though it's neat, you might as well try) the cards from the new bands are likely to be in demand from other players (as a lot of them are universal and work with everyone) so you might sell those for extra discount...

Might have to check it out after I get the little guys then

tneva82 wrote:

PiñaColada wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
5%? Where you got that one. You get 16.666666% more hits than before. And even that 3.7 marines vs 3.3 marines is 12% increase in damage output. Albeit your 3.7 vs 3.3 is still inaccurate as casualty increase is that 16.666666% still. 3.888 dead marines to be specific.

It's an additional hit roll on an unmodified roll of 6. So you get a 16.67% chance to roll for another shot. That shot has a 33% chance of hitting. So each shot has a roughly 5% chance of resulting in an extra hit

Which results in 16.6666% more hits than if you didn't have that rule.

23.333 hits is 16.6666% more hits than 20(using the 30 shoota mob as example).

10 rokkits, from 3.3333 hits to 3.888888 hits which is, funny that, 16.666% more hits than 3.3333.

Oh, I get the math (and I agree with it, even though I'm bad enough at math that shouldn't be taken at any sort of value ). I'm just explaining where people got the 5% from.

tneva82 wrote:

PiñaColada wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
5%? Where you got that one. You get 16.666666% more hits than before. And even that 3.7 marines vs 3.3 marines is 12% increase in damage output. Albeit your 3.7 vs 3.3 is still inaccurate as casualty increase is that 16.666666% still. 3.888 dead marines to be specific.

It's an additional hit roll on an unmodified roll of 6. So you get a 16.67% chance to roll for another shot. That shot has a 33% chance of hitting. So each shot has a roughly 5% chance of resulting in an extra hit

Which results in 16.6666% more hits than if you didn't have that rule.

23.333 hits is 16.6666% more hits than 20(using the 30 shoota mob as example).

10 rokkits, from 3.3333 hits to 3.888888 hits which is, funny that, 16.666% more hits than 3.3333.

Can we stop this absolute vs relative discussion?

Both are right, it's just different ways to calculate a percentage.

It's really unnecessary to have this fight in every single thread discussing DakkaDakkaDakka.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
@Warhead01

https://www.warhammer-community.com/faqs/

The very first errata on the Index Xenos 2 FAQ. They changed the Mob rule wording to only affect other Mob Rule mobs. After all, you can't be motivated by some puny Grotz can ya?!

No it doesn't look like it's change to exclude grots. It works on Key word <Orks>, grots have that key word. So I can't see where it's been changed.




Onto the news and rumor front I wonder what that Speed Freaks box will cost with only 2 buggies and 3 war bikers in it+ terrain and game stuff. Hope it's $100.00 or less.
Or do we think that blue buggy and Trike boss will also be in the set?

 warhead01 wrote:

No it doesn't look like it's change to exclude grots. It works on Key word <Orks>, grots have that key word. So I can't see where it's been changed.
Onto the news and rumor front I wonder what that Speed Freaks box will cost with only 2 buggies and 3 war bikers in it+ terrain and game stuff. Hope it's $100.00 or less.
Or do we think that blue buggy and Trike boss will also be in the set?

I would imagine everything we get in the box is what's shown in that picture showing off the game on a mat... So 2 buggies, 6 bikes, some terrain pieces & assorted accessories

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

PiñaColada wrote:
Roughly 5:30 into this video the guy states that he's heard that the Evil Sunz trait is an additional 2" to the move characteristic. Although he does state that it might be a misinterpretation..

Obviously not the strongest rumour but if this is indeed the case then hopefully GW has considered the implications and made it vehicles and bikes only, otherwise Evil Sunz is going to be the go-to green tide trait..

Spoiler:

I think it's a misinterpretation of the +1" to movement then +1" to advance = +2". Most Orks advance right?

I agree. For evil suns with a warboss nearby there really is no reason not to advance - you can shoot and charge anyways.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SemperMortis wrote:

 Weazel wrote:
I'm super happy with the dakka dakka dakka rule. I used the stratagem on Tankbustas and was pleased with its performance. I can't understand people actually complaining getting it FOR FREE for everyone.

I would actually be pretty happy if we only got Dakkadakkadakka, some flavorful and useful Stratagems and (significant) points reductions to make other options outside of Boyz viable. I'd love to run Dreads and Kans but they're just horribly, horribly overcosted.

I haven't seen anyone openly complaining about it, I have seen people sad that they didn't get the 5+ instead of the 6+ but that is about it. As far as throwing shade on this otherwise good day for Orkz, well, if GW doesn't do anything else to address our horrific shooting then we are basically still in the same boat as before, albeit with a 5% increase in our shooting...which isn't enough. 30 Shoota Boyz with index with their 18' gunz were getting 60 shots, 20 hits and 10 wounds VS Marines for a grand total of 3.3 Dead Marines, with Dakka army wide they now get 60 shots, 23 hits and 11.5 (rough math) wounds vs Space Marines which equals 3.7ish Dead Marines. So the increase is marginal at best for our standard shooting units. Don't get me wrong I am excited about this because if nothing else is makes me believe that someone at GW HQ actually understands that ork shooting is abysmal and is attempting to rectify that mistake.

In the end, ork shooting will depend heavily on the point costs for the models with guns, and outside of a few random nugets we won't know those until the codex drops/is spoiled since GW usually doesn't spoil those in advance.

I wouldn't condemn ork shooting to be a failure until we have played a game with them.

If anything, DakkaDakkaDakka is no longer a stratagem, so there is room for another one - that alone is a buff all by itself

Dakka Dakka Dakka.
There are only a handful of units that will really get a lot out of this. Any unit hitting on a 4+ or better or with a reroll, seems to me. It's just a light buff to help with out hugely hurting the -1 buff of the target unit and it encourages Orks to keep moving to close the distance and then charge. Really the faster units get to with in debuff range the stronger Dakka Dakka will be, getting those 5's as hits back, for example.
Over all it's nice, better to have it than not have it and I really like not having to pay for it. Heck, It sounds like it will work with overwatch as well?

 warhead01 wrote:

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
@Warhead01

https://www.warhammer-community.com/faqs/

The very first errata on the Index Xenos 2 FAQ. They changed the Mob rule wording to only affect other Mob Rule mobs. After all, you can't be motivated by some puny Grotz can ya?!

No it doesn't look like it's change to exclude grots. It works on Key word <Orks>, grots have that key word. So I can't see where it's been changed.

When using the Leadership characteristic of this unit,
you can use either its own Leadership characteristic,
or you can choose for the characteristic to be equal to
either the number of models in the unit, or the number
of models in another friendly unit within 6" that has
this ability.

Actually not even keyword but unit within 6" that has this ability. But grots don't have this ability so no LD boost from numbers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 warhead01 wrote:
. Heck, It sounds like it will work with overwatch as well?

Yup. So basically every overwatch hit will automatically generate another shot

It wouldn't be all that surprising if Orks got a "Overlapping fields of fire" stratagem like IG. So basically if you've wounded an enemy target for 2CP the entire army now gets +1 to hit it.

I know I'd personally love that, it would also synergise with dakkadakkadakka quite a bit since the extra shots would hit easier.

That would be the freeboota clan trait

Freebootas require destroying, not wounding.

But i doubp orks get copy of cadian specific strategem.

 Jidmah wrote:
That would be the freeboota clan trait

Ehem, nevermind (I know it's not verbatim, but way too similar for something like this to show up)

We haven't heard anything from guns yet, however I believe it is unlikely they would make sweeping changes. Something like making Shootas Assault 3 and Big Shootas Assault 6 etc. Would amp up Ork shooting nicely.

 warhead01 wrote:

No it doesn't look like it's change to exclude grots. It works on Key word <Orks>, grots have that key word. So I can't see where it's been changed.

You need to read that again. Mob Rule only works for units with the Mob Rule ability, which grots do not have. Keywords have nothing to do with it.

The problem with Dakkadakkadakka is that, because it exists, you aren’t going to see an increase on the base amount of ork shooting, which was always the real problem.

That, and, hitting on 1/6 with a possible 1/36 for a second shot - woo, so effective. Need to deal with wounding and armor saves (and possibly FNP) after that.

Make “always hits on a 6” a base game rule, as a counterpart to “always misses on a 1” - then buff ork shooting.

An extra shot is largely pointless when you’re hitting on 6s, which was always the real issue. We lose 50% firepower at the first -1 modifier; and our shooting wasn’t great enough to begin with. We simply don’t do enough shots for anything to really matter.

 hollow one wrote:
Englishman I love you man, you fight the good fight in YMDC. But you gotta relax on the shooting wishlisting. If we get literally ANY buffs to boyz without a point increase AND we have comparable shooting with IG/eldar... orks will shoot to top teir or first place.

Let's just take a breath and enjoy the army wide buffs that look both measured and impactful.

Orks should be top tier or first place though?

Nah you're right of course. Until we see the full picture this is all speculation. For free the rule is good but I don't think it fixes the issues with our shooting units by itself. Perhaps there are other changes that help in that regard and we haven't seen! Here's hoping!

fe40k wrote:
An extra shot is largely pointless when you’re hitting on 6s, which was always the real issue. We lose 50% firepower at the first -1 modifier; and our shooting wasn’t great enough to begin with. We simply don’t do enough shots for anything to really matter.

Well the thing is saying our shots don't matter is largely hyperbole.

10 Grey Hunters with Boltguns vs 22 Shootaboyz (~130 pts) shooting at a T4 target, rapid-fire range.

20 Shots vs 44 Shots
13 hits vs 17 hits
6.5 wounds vs 8.5 wounds.

Orks actually put out more dakka point for point than marines.

Now I know you talked about hit modifiers and I agree that they hurt Orks more than say marines, but it's pretty hard to balance shooting around hit modifiers without tipping to the realm of overpowered when hit modifiers are not in effect. Not every game is against Alaitoc after all. If you face some hard to hit girly elves go attach a Choppa to their face instead?

@tneva82, @Nightlord1987: I see where I was confused now. Thank you both. (My brain damage is acting up this morning and I can't see words on a unit entry.) All sorted now.

 ikeulhu wrote:

 warhead01 wrote:

No it doesn't look like it's change to exclude grots. It works on Key word <Orks>, grots have that key word. So I can't see where it's been changed.

You need to read that again. Mob Rule only works for units with the Mob Rule ability, which grots do not have. Keywords have nothing to do with it.

All sorted now. wasn't seeing it under the boys entry so I was just ...having a madboy moment...

I still wouldn't bother with more than one Runtherd, I never use them any way as I just expect my grots to die. It's a grots life after all.




On topic. Zoundz Assault 3 shootas would be wild. Is this just wishlisting or is it something we're actually expecting?

 warhead01 wrote:

I still wouldn't bother with more than one Runtherd, I never use them any way as I just expect my grots to die. It's a grots life after all.

Yeah, I agree on that. I do not use Runtherd's either, since a Warboss will keep them in line if it is really needed and has other uses as well!