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 G00fySmiley wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Fight again was known already but the other better be named and justified better than unit having bigger weapons. Where those were before or next turn?-)

I think it is a throwback to the old chopper rule where they were ap4 if i remember correctly.

Actually, a weird reverse of the normal AP rules at the time, where they prevented the target's save from being better than 4+. I believe the justification for it was that choppas were big and heavy though, so it was an inherent quality of the weapon, not something that is well represented by a one-round stratagem.

Yeah, the 3rd Ed choppa rules were pretty bad. They were effective, but it was just weird for them to do nothing against carapace armor but be super effective against terminator armor. If I remember correctly Andy Chambers has said that rule was his biggest regret, and he only wrote it that way because choppas traditionally had bonuses against armor but they were dead set against modifiers.

That 'Eavy Choppas stratagem will be handy if it turns out to be accurate. I'd rather that choppas had AP -1 standard rather than +1 Attack, as it would cut down on dice rolling and better represents their oversized and brutal nature.

new ork post up on community squigg weapon vehicle

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/10/04/4th-oct-orktober-reveal-the-mysterygw-homepage-post-3/

I hope it's a tow truck where the hook is a sling and it trebuchets bomb squigs.

I think all of the above on the options, ork food truck, (orks eat squiggs), squigg based weapons platform (we have the images and appears squigg based) and hich speed land mine delivery system aka bomb squiggs which have been aroudn for a while.

 G00fySmiley wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Fight again was known already but the other better be named and justified better than unit having bigger weapons. Where those were before or next turn?-)

I think it is a throwback to the old chopper rule where they were ap4 if i remember correctly.

Yes and i have no issue with effect but idea of 1 unit(and only 1 unit) per turn pulling bigger choppas out of backpocket and then putting them back sounds silly. Have it at least some extra rage or something. That would be more believable why only 1 per army and not neccesarily same suddenly gets temporal ap boost.

Its just what GW have done with what used to be a fair few unit rules, they have become strategems. Actually prefer this approach, makes stuff harder to spam.

Plus the idea that one mob of boyz per turn can get really mad appeals, just make sure you have one target per turn worth doing it to.

"fight again" is a pretty obvious one, especially given Nids have something similar as the "other" up close and personal army.

Its speculation isn't it? The Long War strats I mean? Video seems to imply its all guesswork.

They said it was wild speculation in the podcast, and not based on any specific rumors they had heard.

 G00fySmiley wrote:
I think all of the above on the options, ork food truck, (orks eat squiggs), squigg based weapons platform (we have the images and appears squigg based) and hich speed land mine delivery system aka bomb squiggs which have been aroudn for a while.

A Trukk full of bomb squigs would be rediculously overpowered, if they could all run out at once.

 JimOnMars wrote:

 G00fySmiley wrote:
I think all of the above on the options, ork food truck, (orks eat squiggs), squigg based weapons platform (we have the images and appears squigg based) and hich speed land mine delivery system aka bomb squiggs which have been aroudn for a while.

A Trukk full of bomb squigs would be rediculously overpowered, if they could all run out at once.

Nono you shoot them 1 a turn like a manticore

SemperMortis wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:


Boyz were pretty good. Taking them to 32 is appropriate. There are multiple base converters (https://www.ebay.com/i/131844003105?chn=ps). And indeed matched play will require it.

It's one thing to not convert, because of the work and cost. It's another to not convert, because you want to be beardy.

"Boyz were good, so therefore we must nerf them"

Yeah, no. How about we just let our one good unit not get a fething nerf and we just bring up the rest of the codex to where boyz are at? god forbid we have more then one option!

Hmm

on the long war podcast they leaked 2 strategums., 3 cp to attack again with a unit and 1 cp to make a unit have "eavy choppas" and make them -1 ap for the battleround. ideally that means you could charge, eavy choppa for 1 cp to get -1ap, than spend 3 points for another round of swinging at -1 ap.

You were saying?

 Daedalus81 wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:


Boyz were pretty good. Taking them to 32 is appropriate. There are multiple base converters (https://www.ebay.com/i/131844003105?chn=ps). And indeed matched play will require it.

It's one thing to not convert, because of the work and cost. It's another to not convert, because you want to be beardy.

"Boyz were good, so therefore we must nerf them"

Yeah, no. How about we just let our one good unit not get a fething nerf and we just bring up the rest of the codex to where boyz are at? god forbid we have more then one option!

Hmm

on the long war podcast they leaked 2 strategums., 3 cp to attack again with a unit and 1 cp to make a unit have "eavy choppas" and make them -1 ap for the battleround. ideally that means you could charge, eavy choppa for 1 cp to get -1ap, than spend 3 points for another round of swinging at -1 ap.

You were saying?

The -1AP stratagem is not even a rumour. Its made up speculation. The fight again strat is a rumour but it'll be 3 CP and its one unit a turn. Both of those things will not be half as useful if Boys are on 32s. No longer an issue of course as neither GW nor ITC aren forcing players to re base to 32s.

I honestly can’t see boyz squads staying at 30, if they get 32mm bases. I’m predicting/speculating this....

They’ll be changed to a 20 boy max squad
They’ll have ‘mob rule’ as a special rule to boyz squad only
Each squad can only mob up once per turn, after the first turn......maybe
And that they get a buff with each number they hit, for example 30 boyz plus 2” to charges or 40 boyz plus one attack something like that

I imagine piling out of battle wagons and trucks, with boyz running close behind, forming a growing mob in front of enemy lines, as they try to whittle down the boyz numbers before they reach critical mass and hit a waaaagh (for a super sayian buff)

I just hope they don’t stick with a mundane plus 1 attack for over 20 seems so.....flat and uninspiring

 Marklarr wrote:
I honestly can’t see boyz squads staying at 30, if they get 32mm bases. I’m predicting/speculating this....

I just hope they don’t stick with a mundane plus 1 attack for over 20 seems so.....flat and uninspiring

Not to mention it more or less forces boyz to be in squads greater than 20. Anything less seems sub-optimal since you won't be getting that extra attack. In 7th I was running 20 boyz squads in battlewagons and that did a damn good job, but do that in 8th and you'll get tabled almost immediately. More than any other buff, I want them to give us a way to run smaller squads of boyz again. Giving back 'eavy armor is an easy way to do this.

leopard wrote:
Its just what GW have done with what used to be a fair few unit rules, they have become strategems. Actually prefer this approach, makes stuff harder to spam.

Plus the idea that one mob of boyz per turn can get really mad appeals, just make sure you have one target per turn worth doing it to.

"fight again" is a pretty obvious one, especially given Nids have something similar as the "other" up close and personal army.

If it's they get real mad fine(i even referred to suci idea). But if it's called big choppa reasoning is stupid one.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vitali Advenil wrote:

 Marklarr wrote:
I honestly can’t see boyz squads staying at 30, if they get 32mm bases. I’m predicting/speculating this....

I just hope they don’t stick with a mundane plus 1 attack for over 20 seems so.....flat and uninspiring

Not to mention it more or less forces boyz to be in squads greater than 20. Anything less seems sub-optimal since you won't be getting that extra attack. In 7th I was running 20 boyz squads in battlewagons and that did a damn good job, but do that in 8th and you'll get tabled almost immediately. More than any other buff, I want them to give us a way to run smaller squads of boyz again. Giving back 'eavy armor is an easy way to do this.

They would neea more than remove extra attack(and give it standard back) but up the survivability but default armour 4+ doesn't make sense withthose stats. But if you limit unit size and give no survitability boost bye bye boyz.

Why do you think the size of the squad effect survivability?

 Marklarr wrote:
Why do you think the size of the squad effect survivability?

More wounds. The only reason boyz are viable is because you can take them in blobs of boyz for super cheap. Throwing 180 bodies on the table is a lot to chew through.

I mean, you actually get more wounds for the points by going MSU due to free Nobz.

Blobs of 30 are important for Mob Rule, +1 Attack from Green Tide, and psychic powers and stratagems that target a specific unit (currently most of the psychic powers and stratagems we have access to).

On the other hand, if you're taking full-size mobs of 30 all the time, you're limiting your access to CPs. Perhaps not much of a consideration with our current limited access to stratagems, but that might change when the Codex appears.

 Marklarr wrote:
Why do you think the size of the squad effect survivability?

Which one vou think i# easier to reduce sub-10 models aka useless? 30 or 20?




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Nazrak wrote:
On the other hand, if you're taking full-size mobs of 30 all the time, you're limiting your access to CPs. Perhaps not much of a consideration with our current limited access to stratagems, but that might change when the Codex appears.

18 cg is good enlugh. It's lousy fa and elite stopping brgade. Bat 3 is dirt easy

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

The -1AP stratagem is not even a rumour. Its made up speculation. The fight again strat is a rumour but it'll be 3 CP and its one unit a turn. Both of those things will not be half as useful if Boys are on 32s. No longer an issue of course as neither GW nor ITC aren forcing players to re base to 32s.

If it's true and if Orks can still generate CP with relative ease then that tide will turn very quickly.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

The -1AP stratagem is not even a rumour. Its made up speculation. The fight again strat is a rumour but it'll be 3 CP and its one unit a turn. Both of those things will not be half as useful if Boys are on 32s. No longer an issue of course as neither GW nor ITC aren forcing players to re base to 32s.

If it's true and if Orks can still generate CP with relative ease then that tide will turn very quickly.

30 Boyz pre buff would be 120 attacks base hitting on 3s so 80 hits, wounding on 4s (vs T4) = 40 wounds, Vs a Space Marine 3+ save is 13 unsaved wounds. With the buff that becomes 20, so yeah its a pretty good buff. Finally something we can agree on.

tneva82 wrote:

 Marklarr wrote:
Why do you think the size of the squad effect survivability?

Which one vou think i# easier to reduce sub-10 models aka useless? 30 or 20?




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Nazrak wrote:
On the other hand, if you're taking full-size mobs of 30 all the time, you're limiting your access to CPs. Perhaps not much of a consideration with our current limited access to stratagems, but that might change when the Codex appears.

18 cg is good enlugh. It's lousy fa and elite stopping brgade. Bat 3 is dirt easy

That wasn’t what I asked.

But that's the answer. Bigger squad takes more shots before it's useless. That's clear survivability issue. Small squads of orks are soft paper and once below 10 best bet is to run and hide.

You asked "Why do you think the size of the squad effect survivability". Well squad size directly affects survivability. 10 more wounds before unit reaches uselessness.

I was re-reading IA:8 tonight and it sure would make me happy if we got more tanks.

I'm happy with the buggies, don't get me wrong, but a medium tank and/or some good rules for looted wagons would be nice.

I think the buggies make the idea of us getting looted vehicles less and less likely.

GW are going to push those, not allow us to use our existing older models.

Well, I wouldn't be too surprised if we saw a looted vehicles part in the codex akin to the "build your own landraider" thing in CA. For open play only, of course.

 Jidmah wrote:
Well, I wouldn't be too surprised if we saw a looted vehicles part in the codex akin to the "build your own landraider" thing in CA. For open play only, of course.

This is basically what I'm expecting, a few simple guides to convert any vehicle to an ork version, likely it getting Ork BS5+, and guides for what weapons the chassis can be given (losing its native weapons in the process).

Given most vehicles pay for weapons that would actually work 'ok' for pointed games, pay the base points, add ork weapons and away you go - it will always be over priced in points (as you will be paying for a better BS and any "free" weapons you no longer get, but its fine as a guide for narrative/open stuff

tneva82 wrote:
But that's the answer. Bigger squad takes more shots before it's useless. That's clear survivability issue. Small squads of orks are soft paper and once below 10 best bet is to run and hide.

You asked "Why do you think the size of the squad effect survivability". Well squad size directly affects survivability. 10 more wounds before unit reaches uselessness.

You keep saying that units suddenly become useless at 10 models, but I don't understand why you think that. Obviously Mob Rule gets less good as your unit gets smaller, but it can be mitigated by having a single large unit surrounded by many small ones, having a warboss nearby or being such a small unit that you are virtually immune to morale anyway. Otherwise, I'm not clear why four units of five orks aren't as good or better than one unit of twenty, for example.