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leopard wrote:
IIRC there is a strategem in Kill Team that lets a Burna fire at d6, could see one in the book for a unit to fire as D6, not D3 for a turn, seems to be how such stuff gets handled - make it a Strategem.

Blood Axe all the way here, third mob just completed, looking at the 4th (old fantasy models that need rebasing and wrist swaps)

honestly I am ok with d3 and a strategy for d6 so long as they get a points decrease. currently the isse with burner boys is you have a d3 flamer that costs the same as a imperial flamer when you look at the cost of the model (basic boy model is 6 points, burnas are 14 points each currently) for the more than twice points they get a special though very niche morale rule, and lose the bonus attack for large mob rule. they also get to use thier flamer as a melee weapon at str 4 ap-2 d1... which is cool, but at 14 points and a 6+ armor save they have issues staying alive when out of a trukk or battlewagon. I do think they would be worth 14 points as is on weapon too if they had a 4+ which might make sense given their models extra armor.

that aside, I am actually happy to be able to catch up here, finally getting some internet after Hurricane Michael blew through my area and catch up on news and rumors, cell signal has been spotty. love the squigg buggy and hope to get mine preordered. been getting a lot of painting done to my orks, been meaning to redo their skin as its my first army and i was terrible at painting back then (compared to some i still am awful but have improved since then) so this has been just the opportunity i needed. While waiting for power to be restored got my little generator going and a few led lights so the painting area is well lit enough to get stuff done!

Burna boyz have maybe twice the damage output of boyz, but no increase in survivability. I'd say that they are worth ~40% more than boyz with their current stats and up to twice the value of boyz if they had 4+ saves (and boys stayed as 6+). That suggests to me that a burna should cost around 3 points and 'eavy armour would be fair as a 3 point upgrade.

I would also accept a 'smoke cloud' for -1 to hit them as being equivalent to 4+ saves and 5+ saves (roughly matching what I think the models look like they should have) adding maybe 1 point of value.

I do not expect this to actually be what GW gives us.

Some of you are setting yourselves up for disappointment on points.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Some of you are setting yourselves up for disappointment on points.

yea, i make no illusions that our stuff will still be over costed compared to imperium units. I am kind of expecting point drops especially on the stompa and vehicles as compares to imperium and chaos we pay so much more for so much less.

 G00fySmiley wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Some of you are setting yourselves up for disappointment on points.

yea, i make no illusions that our stuff will still be over costed compared to imperium units. I am kind of expecting point drops especially on the stompa and vehicles as compares to imperium and chaos we pay so much more for so much less.

No you certainly don't want to assume massive improvements. I'd like them to stay exactly the same with the exception that the burna is upgraded to d3 skorcha hits instead (so S5 AP-1 D1). I think that's reasonable for 14 points but I think we'll get something a lot more modest in way of change than that..

PiñaColada wrote:

 G00fySmiley wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Some of you are setting yourselves up for disappointment on points.

yea, i make no illusions that our stuff will still be over costed compared to imperium units. I am kind of expecting point drops especially on the stompa and vehicles as compares to imperium and chaos we pay so much more for so much less.

No you certainly don't want to assume massive improvements. I'd like them to stay exactly the same with the exception that the burna is upgraded to d3 skorcha hits instead (so S5 AP-1 D1). I think that's reasonable for 14 points but I think we'll get something a lot more modest in way of change than that..

I wrote that a bit confusingly. I have no illusion any ork unit when compared to an imperial/chaos unit will be better. we will pay the xenos tax and orks pay the most points of any xenos army. I do expect vehicles to go down because nobody takes ork vehicles now and gw knows/has talked about this at various events.

also adding another bit iof info here for speculation. my FLGS just put up preorders for the speed freeks box set, they have it listed at $150 which is.... rally disapointing given the models inside. usually you get a 50-60% discount over full retail in these boxes, but unless the buggies are going to be as much as a battlewagon then there is no such discount here, more liek a modest 10-20% one. it is possible my flgs is just using past prices or a rumor as a reference, but I was especting $100 given the context and even spikey bits looking at past kits was thinking $85-120.

I would expect those buggies to be at least $50 a pop. Maybe $40. Bikes are ~$40 and there's 2 of those. So between $160 and $180. Then you have terrain and other gubbinz. Still, probably not the best deal going depending how you mentally value the buggies.

$50 a pop would be more than a razer back. given the base and sprue count I think they will be like the armigers, $75 for 2 max, possibly less as they are likely to be much less points wise. bikes are 41 each set US that is $157. so only a $7 savings, seems pointless to me, at $150 i pass and wait for the individual kits.

given the usual 40-60% off even the lowest discounts box sets get a ~40% off models would be

usually the rest of the game is not in the equation., in this case ~40% would be 94.20, but if its $100 i'd pick it up still.

 G00fySmiley wrote:

also adding another bit iof info here for speculation. my FLGS just put up preorders for the speed freeks box set, they have it listed at $150 which is.... rally disapointing given the models inside. usually you get a 50-60% discount over full retail in these boxes, but unless the buggies are going to be as much as a battlewagon then there is no such discount here, more liek a modest 10-20% one. it is possible my flgs is just using past prices or a rumor as a reference, but I was especting $100 given the context and even spikey bits looking at past kits was thinking $85-120.

dont preorders start next week? is you FLGS just jumping the gun and making up a price?

geargutz wrote:

 G00fySmiley wrote:

also adding another bit iof info here for speculation. my FLGS just put up preorders for the speed freeks box set, they have it listed at $150 which is.... rally disapointing given the models inside. usually you get a 50-60% discount over full retail in these boxes, but unless the buggies are going to be as much as a battlewagon then there is no such discount here, more liek a modest 10-20% one. it is possible my flgs is just using past prices or a rumor as a reference, but I was especting $100 given the context and even spikey bits looking at past kits was thinking $85-120.

dont preorders start next week? is you FLGS just jumping the gun and making up a price?

could be. I am hoping so, but since its a game store i figured worth posting here to see if others get similar results.

 G00fySmiley wrote:

geargutz wrote:

 G00fySmiley wrote:

also adding another bit iof info here for speculation. my FLGS just put up preorders for the speed freeks box set, they have it listed at $150 which is.... rally disapointing given the models inside. usually you get a 50-60% discount over full retail in these boxes, but unless the buggies are going to be as much as a battlewagon then there is no such discount here, more liek a modest 10-20% one. it is possible my flgs is just using past prices or a rumor as a reference, but I was especting $100 given the context and even spikey bits looking at past kits was thinking $85-120.

dont preorders start next week? is you FLGS just jumping the gun and making up a price?

could be. I am hoping so, but since its a game store i figured worth posting here to see if others get similar results.

After you posted, I went and sent a message to my LGS - he's not doing preorders until a price is announced, and he tends to be really quick on these things.

Obviously doesn't mean anything definitive.

goofysmily
yeah, sound like yor FLGS is talking our their squighole with a guess. besides, on the news and rumors thread it been rumored that its at most 124$us. so, each squad of bikes is 41$us from the GW site, so that means you get terrain and the 2 new buggies for just 42$us. again, these are rumors, so take what i just said with a grain of salt.

 Perfect Organism wrote:
Burna boyz have maybe twice the damage output of boyz, but no increase in survivability. I'd say that they are worth ~40% more than boyz with their current stats and up to twice the value of boyz if they had 4+ saves (and boys stayed as 6+). That suggests to me that a burna should cost around 3 points and 'eavy armour would be fair as a 3 point upgrade.

I would also accept a 'smoke cloud' for -1 to hit them as being equivalent to 4+ saves and 5+ saves (roughly matching what I think the models look like they should have) adding maybe 1 point of value.

I do not expect this to actually be what GW gives us.

Burna Boyz are nowhere near twice as good at damage output as regular boyz. Compare a Burna Boy to Shoota Boyz. At 154pts you can get 11 Burna boyz or 29 Shoota Boyz. Shoota Boyz have longer range and can easily win the versatility award based on their range alone. Shoota boyz have more then twice the range and so can basically pump out 2 volleys at range to the Burna boyz who will get 1 shot and then either have to charge or hope they aren't shot off the table. 29 shoota boys get 58 shots, 20ish Hits, 10 wounds against T4, so with 2 volleys to the burna boyz 1 thats 20 wounds. Burna boyz get 22 shots on average and 11 wounds, even if they get 2 volleys by some miracle its only 2 wounds more on average then shoota boyz. In CC its even worse. 29 Shoota boyz get 87 attacks, 58 hits, and 29 wounds vs T4 against a 3+ save they inflict about 10 damage. 11 Burna Boyz get 22 attacks and 11 wounds vs T4 and against that same 3+ save they do 8 damage. In durability it isn't even a question that shoota boyz win hands down.

So point for point your average shoota boyz is almost as good at shooting, especially if they get that 2nd volley in, and in CC they are better as well, the big difference is durability as i pointed out. So no, Burna boyz aren't twice as good at damage output as boyz.

I’ve seen some mutterings doing the rounds that Speed Freeks is going to come in at 90 quid (i.e. same as Tooth & Claw). Hoping this is off the mark as that seems pretty expensive compared to recent box sets, and doesn’t bode well for the price of the individual buggies.

 Nazrak wrote:
I’ve seen some mutterings doing the rounds that Speed Freeks is going to come in at 90 quid (i.e. same as Tooth & Claw). Hoping this is off the mark as that seems pretty expensive compared to recent box sets, and doesn’t bode well for the price of the individual buggies.

Most vehicles are around £30 a piece, (though the box that is the Rhino/Razorback is cheaper). In this case though, I’d expect the new kits to be around this mark – or even sold in a set of 2 for ~£45 like the Armigers are, but, I kinda doubt this going forward (or at least it’d be sold for a more).

Bikes are £24 for 3, so, if this set contains 6 bikes and 2 buggies, then we’d be looking at ~£108 for the models, then all the rules, tokens, dice, play tiles, cards etc on top of that. As such, I can see £90 being the starting price for the set.

Besides, £90 has worked well for them so far, so, they might as well stick to it.

Kdash wrote:

 Nazrak wrote:
I’ve seen some mutterings doing the rounds that Speed Freeks is going to come in at 90 quid (i.e. same as Tooth & Claw). Hoping this is off the mark as that seems pretty expensive compared to recent box sets, and doesn’t bode well for the price of the individual buggies.

Most vehicles are around £30 a piece, (though the box that is the Rhino/Razorback is cheaper). In this case though, I’d expect the new kits to be around this mark – or even sold in a set of 2 for ~£45 like the Armigers are, but, I kinda doubt this going forward (or at least it’d be sold for a more).

Bikes are £24 for 3, so, if this set contains 6 bikes and 2 buggies, then we’d be looking at ~£108 for the models, then all the rules, tokens, dice, play tiles, cards etc on top of that. As such, I can see £90 being the starting price for the set.

Besides, £90 has worked well for them so far, so, they might as well stick to it.

Oh you’re not wrong that it’d be cheaper than buying all the stuff in there individually, but it’s not by any stretch as drastic a discount as on the other recent boxes, which have had c. £150 worth of models alone in them. If it were, say, a £75 RRP box (and we can’t rule that out entirely just yet) then I’d be all over it, but if it’s £90, then I’ll be seriously considering just holding off til I can buy the bits I’m particularly keen on separately.

That would be 120e for euro users then.

Combined with what ork codex looks like to be and adeptus titanicus being so awesome looks like I'm scaling down ork purchaces by ~half in favour of more titan awesomeness.

Kdash wrote:

 Nazrak wrote:
I’ve seen some mutterings doing the rounds that Speed Freeks is going to come in at 90 quid (i.e. same as Tooth & Claw). Hoping this is off the mark as that seems pretty expensive compared to recent box sets, and doesn’t bode well for the price of the individual buggies.

Most vehicles are around £30 a piece, (though the box that is the Rhino/Razorback is cheaper). In this case though, I’d expect the new kits to be around this mark – or even sold in a set of 2 for ~£45 like the Armigers are, but, I kinda doubt this going forward (or at least it’d be sold for a more).

Bikes are £24 for 3, so, if this set contains 6 bikes and 2 buggies, then we’d be looking at ~£108 for the models, then all the rules, tokens, dice, play tiles, cards etc on top of that. As such, I can see £90 being the starting price for the set.

Besides, £90 has worked well for them so far, so, they might as well stick to it.

£90 is a plausible number but it's also on the absolute high end of what I think they can sell that box for. It seems like less of a bargain than many other recent boxes to me, but then again I was sort of surprised at how big those buggies came across in that video leak. They might be like £40 each, making the speed freeks box a better bargain but for all the wrong reasons

120€ for 2 buggies and 6 bikes is nothing short of daylight robbery. Hard pass.

PiñaColada wrote:

£90 is a plausible number but it's also on the absolute high end of what I think they can sell that box for. It seems like less of a bargain than many other recent boxes to me, but then again I was sort of surprised at how big those buggies came across in that video leak. They might be like £40 each, making the speed freeks box a better bargain but for all the wrong reasons

Exactly. Personally, a £75 RRP box would be in “this is a bargain, shut up and take my money” territory, whereas £90 would be more like “Hm maybe I should save some money and carry on building/painting the backlog.”

ooh! are we whinging about prices?? my turn!

assuming it's £90...same as Tooth and Claw...well that'll mean it'll be AU$250 here in Australia, like Tooth and Claw...righto, so then we convert AU$250 back into £ and €...~£135, or ~153€...yay!

 Nazrak wrote:

PiñaColada wrote:

£90 is a plausible number but it's also on the absolute high end of what I think they can sell that box for. It seems like less of a bargain than many other recent boxes to me, but then again I was sort of surprised at how big those buggies came across in that video leak. They might be like £40 each, making the speed freeks box a better bargain but for all the wrong reasons

Exactly. Personally, a £75 RRP box would be in “this is a bargain, shut up and take my money” territory, whereas £90 would be more like “Hm maybe I should save some money and carry on building/painting the backlog.”

that is really wehre i am at if it is $150 US, if $100 its a buy 3 immediatly, at 120 its a buy 2, at 150 its a... pass and go make my own conversions. I am lookign at it as buggies plus some discount bikers. if not getting discount bikers (i forget how many i have, but know its over 50 biker models) seems pointless. might pick up 1 box if i can get it used later for cheap

I'll be looking at Ebay to cherry pick rat rod, boom wagon? is it?
It one of the three new model I like the look of. That the squig waggon and the scrap jet trakk. Jury's still out on the Trike boss.

SemperMortis wrote:

 Perfect Organism wrote:
Burna boyz have maybe twice the damage output of boyz, but no increase in survivability. I'd say that they are worth ~40% more than boyz with their current stats and up to twice the value of boyz if they had 4+ saves (and boys stayed as 6+). That suggests to me that a burna should cost around 3 points and 'eavy armour would be fair as a 3 point upgrade.

I would also accept a 'smoke cloud' for -1 to hit them as being equivalent to 4+ saves and 5+ saves (roughly matching what I think the models look like they should have) adding maybe 1 point of value.

I do not expect this to actually be what GW gives us.

Burna Boyz are nowhere near twice as good at damage output as regular boyz. Compare a Burna Boy to Shoota Boyz. At 154pts you can get 11 Burna boyz or 29 Shoota Boyz. Shoota Boyz have longer range and can easily win the versatility award based on their range alone. Shoota boyz have more then twice the range and so can basically pump out 2 volleys at range to the Burna boyz who will get 1 shot and then either have to charge or hope they aren't shot off the table. 29 shoota boys get 58 shots, 20ish Hits, 10 wounds against T4, so with 2 volleys to the burna boyz 1 thats 20 wounds. Burna boyz get 22 shots on average and 11 wounds, even if they get 2 volleys by some miracle its only 2 wounds more on average then shoota boyz. In CC its even worse. 29 Shoota boyz get 87 attacks, 58 hits, and 29 wounds vs T4 against a 3+ save they inflict about 10 damage. 11 Burna Boyz get 22 attacks and 11 wounds vs T4 and against that same 3+ save they do 8 damage. In durability it isn't even a question that shoota boyz win hands down.

So point for point your average shoota boyz is almost as good at shooting, especially if they get that 2nd volley in, and in CC they are better as well, the big difference is durability as i pointed out. So no, Burna boyz aren't twice as good at damage output as boyz.

I meant on a model-for-model basis, not in terms of their current points cost. Obviously at the moment BB are inferior to the same points in boyz. I was speculating on how much of a price drop they would need to be competitive using boyz as a base.

I think the problem with Burna Boyz, as with other troop types we have built around the basic Boyz profile (Lootas, tankbustas, looking at you guys), is that we’re paying too much for the weapon upgrades, when they die just as easily as a 6pt Boy. And at the current prices, they’re not effective enough tyet not make me just go “eh I’ll take more Boyz instead”. Personally I don’t think there’s anything inherently wrong with any of their weapons, just that we’re paying too much for them. The other advantage to making them cheaper is you don’t lose out on the horde aspect of Orks by taking them; at the current prices, you’re eating into your points budget quite heavily even by taking relatively small units of them.

 Nazrak wrote:
I think the problem with Burna Boyz, as with other troop types we have built around the basic Boyz profile (Lootas, tankbustas, looking at you guys), is that we’re paying too much for the weapon upgrades, when they die just as easily as a 6pt Boy. And at the current prices, they’re not effective enough tyet not make me just go “eh I’ll take more Boyz instead”. Personally I don’t think there’s anything inherently wrong with any of their weapons, just that we’re paying too much for them. The other advantage to making them cheaper is you don’t lose out on the horde aspect of Orks by taking them; at the current prices, you’re eating into your points budget quite heavily even by taking relatively small units of them.

It's also a case of pre dakkadakkadakka you could always be subjected to hitting on a 7+ so a burna at least had a theoretical argument going for it in the sense that assuming you're in range, you'll hit something. Now they really need some help. I wonder if they would become used if their range was increased to like 18" and everything else stayed the same. The damage would still be mediocre per pointbut versatility would at least be up

If anyone was still wondering about the price of the new Speed Freeks box, it is confirmed $150 US.

Ugh, at 180 CAD, I'll probably just download the rules and use my existing mat to try out the actual Speed Freeks game. I have plenty of warbikers as is so it's really just the buggies I'm interested in, and with only 2 in the box, I don't think it's worth buying just for that.

Is that the same price Tooth and Claw goes for in the US/Canada? If so, then we’re looking at £90 in the UK I guess. Oh well.

 CommunistNapkin wrote:
If anyone was still wondering about the price of the new Speed Freeks box, it is confirmed $150 US.

That sucks. I was going to buy an extra copy for my buddy, but that won't be possible now.