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 Weazel wrote:
tneva82 can you please lay off the "Boyz are useless at 7ppm" mantra already. The codex isn't even out yet.

I find it kinda funny that at 6ppm it's totally worth it to spam boyz and only boyz and at 7ppm they are suddenly utter trash not worth taking at all. A one point difference taking a model from autoinclude to never-include. Hyperbole at its finest.

boys are only good at 6 points from a counter meta standpoint. if you spam them then all their enemy's counter tank points are wasted. it is very hard to build a tournament list capable of dealing with slam captains, imperial knights and guard cp farm and still be able to take 200+ boys off the table. a ork boy really as is is closer to 5 points and maybe clan traits will make them worth the 6 ion a mixed unit list.

 G00fySmiley wrote:

 Weazel wrote:
tneva82 can you please lay off the "Boyz are useless at 7ppm" mantra already. The codex isn't even out yet.

I find it kinda funny that at 6ppm it's totally worth it to spam boyz and only boyz and at 7ppm they are suddenly utter trash not worth taking at all. A one point difference taking a model from autoinclude to never-include. Hyperbole at its finest.

boys are only good at 6 points from a counter meta standpoint. if you spam them then all their enemy's counter tank points are wasted. it is very hard to build a tournament list capable of dealing with slam captains, imperial knights and guard cp farm and still be able to take 200+ boys off the table. a ork boy really as is is closer to 5 points and maybe clan traits will make them worth the 6 ion a mixed unit list.

lol

 koooaei wrote:


Unless we are talking tankbustas in a trukk, in which case they will do only .8 more wounds against vehicles and less against any other targets - assuming dragsta is 140 points and the trukk will go down by 20%.
[...]
I mean just think about it. 120 pts. For 8 t6 4+ armored wounds. That's like 3 times easier to kill than a venom.

Pandabeer wrote:

PiñaColada wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Well that space marine at least is going to have ablative wounds rather than being easily targeted and taken out by the enemy.

Though yeah 60 pts is way too low. But 100-120 and you won't be able to have multiples of them easily and 1 is taken out easily.

120 I think is going to be a bit rich. At 100 I really think they can work out, would have to try them for a few games but they just might. Obviously as a glass cannon and it certainly shouldn't be your only anti-tank in the army but hopefully it's fast enough to be able to hide away from some of the scary stuff and threaten with a few choice jumps throughout the game.

At 80 I feel that these things are a steal (again, speculation), at 60 they'd be broken. You could bring 9 of them (3 squads of three) for 540 points, that's just insane. At 60 points they'd be cheap enough to use as roadblocks in a bind, just teleport up and turn the base sideways and you've blocked off a huge chunk of the battlefield

100 points sounds about right really. You get an incredibly quick non-degrading BS3+ Las-Talon with half a missile launcher (because BS5+) on a not-too-incredibly-squishy platform that against a shooty army has a decent chance to be able to hide in CC in T1 with Wartrike support.

yeah but just think about it... a ravenger is what 120points? its as fast and has 3 shots of s8 ap-4. it has more wounds and an invul save of 5+
or compare the squigbuggy to a venom... similar toughness, wounds and weaponary... but one comes with a native -1 to hit, 5++ and can transport 5 guys...
a venom is what? PL 3/4??? the squigbuggy is PL7 (!)

A ravager with 3 dark lances is 140 points. Its 125 with 3 dissies, which is the better loadout, but will almost certainly get a points increase in Chapter Approved.

The dragster would be an auto-take at 100 points. It would be comically broken at 80.

 koooaei wrote:
And huge bases make it harder to hide and move than trukks.

And tankbustas are not insta dead the moment a truck gets blown away.

My understanding of a game tells me that i'll start considering this shokk buggy at 80 pts. And start thinking they're a worthwhile sidegrade over trukkbustaz at 70.

And you're completely ignoring the cost of the trukk?

Re: this idea of only bothering with the scrapjet and/or dragsta because Orks are already good at anti-infantry...

Even then, you are still faced with the problem of getting through waves of chaff so you can attack the expensive stuff.

Why not take some boomdakka snazzwagons to help clear a path? At least if you're using a mechanised list?

As a nice bonus, couldn't you also stack their "billowing fumes" rule with the "billowing exhaust cloud" stratagem so that marines are now hitting them on fives? I know I saw a rumour that "squadrons" of 2-3 vehicles taken in one slot would still count as individual units for all rules purposes, which would make this a waste of CP, but I couldn't see that in the official "da vehicles" article (correct me if I'm wrong). It sounds to me like this will be a decent unit as long as it's cheap.

It's not really good at clearing out screens though, even if you throw burna boms after them. All that dakka amounts to maybe a dead guardian, fire warrior, guardman or lower daemon - you are more likely to kill one of those with a dragsta or scrapjet.

The best buggy for screen clearing seems to be the boosta-blasta due to those four burnas and the rive cannon.

These buggies are T6, 8W, 4+ save.

They will die to a particularly powerful breeze.

A dead unit deals no damage.

Unless you spam buggies and only buggies, I'm not sure they are a good choice.

They suffer from the standard Ork problem; "lets make a shooty unit good at melee but charge them for it, lol!" in that their melee output looks OK, on paper, but it costs their shooting output which is far, far more powerful.

I'll run them either way, because I'm a sucker for new gubbinz and they're Evil Sunz at that, but unless their points cost is at the lower end of the power level spectrum they'll be a liability I think.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Unless you spam buggies and only buggies, I'm not sure they are a good choice.

Well, this is not true at all. Anything from bikers over KMK, planes, koptas and trukks to walkers and battlewagons will add to target saturation for buggies. They fit in with any army that is not spamming infantry. I also doubt that volcano lances will be pointed at a buggy if there is are battlewagons with thrakka and scarboys inside driving up the field. Last but not least, we have plenty of clan traits that increase durability and the KFF.

They'll do fine.

 Jidmah wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Unless you spam buggies and only buggies, I'm not sure they are a good choice.

Well, this is not true at all. Anything from bikers over KMK, planes, koptas and trukks to walkers and battlewagons will add to target saturation for buggies. They fit in with any army that is not spamming infantry. I also doubt that volcano lances will be pointed at a buggy if there is are battlewagons with thrakka and scarboys inside driving up the field. Last but not least, we have plenty of clan traits that increase durability and the KFF.

They'll do fine.

Exactly. In the end it’ll all come down to points costs, but stats wise T6 8W is just fine.

T6 is a great value because you pay less than you would for T7 but still you’ll be operating exactly the same when you’re being shot by: Haywire, Disintegrators, Dark/Bright Lances, Cawl’s Wrath, Volcano Lance, Pulse Lasers, Lascannons, Missile Launchers, Bolters, Shuriken Catapults, Pulse Rifles/Carbines, SMS, etc. etc. No difference in dice roll required to wound. And just like you said, the KFF will be a budget Night Shield invulnerable for all the vehicles, while the Snakebite trait is the Ulthwe/Black Heart trait should you want it.

In my mind if these are pointed low enough they have the potential to be overwhelmingly powerful. If these buggies fail to be competitive the problem most certainly won’t be fragility.

 Jidmah wrote:

Well, this is not true at all. Anything from bikers over KMK, planes, koptas and trukks to walkers and battlewagons will add to target saturation for buggies. They fit in with any army that is not spamming infantry. I also doubt that volcano lances will be pointed at a buggy if there is are battlewagons with thrakka and scarboys inside driving up the field. Last but not least, we have plenty of clan traits that increase durability and the KFF.

They'll do fine.

Koptas and bikes are T5 so face a whole different range of effective weapons at range. You're right on the rest though, T6 and above I guess was my meaning.

Not all of your example units do particularly much damage though when not engaged in cqc, so those dreads, battlewagons full of multiple Ghazzys etc,will be ignored until they're closer.

Am I the only person who plays against players that routinely snipe and target my KFF carrying characters?

Also if you're speeding up field or teleporting around its unlikely you'll be under the KFF which means you're gonna have a bad time.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

Well, this is not true at all. Anything from bikers over KMK, planes, koptas and trukks to walkers and battlewagons will add to target saturation for buggies. They fit in with any army that is not spamming infantry. I also doubt that volcano lances will be pointed at a buggy if there is are battlewagons with thrakka and scarboys inside driving up the field. Last but not least, we have plenty of clan traits that increase durability and the KFF.

They'll do fine.

Koptas and bikes are T5 so face a whole different range of effective weapons at range. You're right on the rest though, T6 and above I guess was my meaning.

Not all of your example units do particularly much damage though when not engaged in cqc, so those dreads, battlewagons full of multiple Ghazzys etc,will be ignored until they're closer.

Am I the only person who plays against players that routinely snipe and target my KFF carrying characters?

Also if you're speeding up field or teleporting around its unlikely you'll be under the KFF which means you're gonna have a bad time.

Ususally I try to hide my big meg KFF out of LoS from enemy snipers, so maybe behind a battleagon or something. It's tough to hide him completely in a lot of cases but if only 2 snipers can see him then they're no real threat. I will get a few of the buggies and am wondering if I can do away with the KFF though. I doubt the army would be anywhere near as good but I'm not really a fan of trying to squeeze everything into 9". I'll most liekly go back to the KFF (on a index big mek warbike) but it might be un to try a few games without him.

Now, if only they give us a relic shokk attack gun that is assault instead of heavy (and hopefully a few more buffs) so he can ride around with the trukkboyz

Edit: The warhammer community article for today is supposed to be snakebites, what do you all reckon we get from that? Clan rule, a stratagem and a few "top units" again, or something different?

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

Well, this is not true at all. Anything from bikers over KMK, planes, koptas and trukks to walkers and battlewagons will add to target saturation for buggies. They fit in with any army that is not spamming infantry. I also doubt that volcano lances will be pointed at a buggy if there is are battlewagons with thrakka and scarboys inside driving up the field. Last but not least, we have plenty of clan traits that increase durability and the KFF.

They'll do fine.

Koptas and bikes are T5 so face a whole different range of effective weapons at range. You're right on the rest though, T6 and above I guess was my meaning.

Please do provide examples of weapons that do a lot better against T5/4+ multi-wound models than against T6/4+ multi-wound models.

Not all of your example units do particularly much damage though when not engaged in cqc, so those dreads, battlewagons full of multiple Ghazzys etc,will be ignored until they're closer.

Dreads and battlewagons will be in combat turn 2 due to ramming strat or tellyporta or wartrike or because they are evil suns or because of a combination of these.

The charge range of an evil suns model near a warboss or wartrike by turn 2 is 2x(movement speed)+5x1"(evil suns trait)+2d6"(average 7)+2d6"(re-roll one or both, so average 9) with zero CP invested.
On average, a deff dread will be able to assault something 33" away from it turn 2.
Nauts can go up to to 37"
Trukks and Battlewagons can go up to 45"
Koptas, dragstas and warbikers can be in combat with something 49" away

A goff battlewagon can advance 12"+d6 turn one, unload thrakka and his scarboyz 3" and then have them move, advance and charge for a total average range of 36"+base diameter

You have precious little time to shoot buggies.

Am I the only person who plays against players that routinely snipe and target my KFF carrying characters?

Also if you're speeding up field or teleporting around its unlikely you'll be under the KFF which means you're gonna have a bad time.

Morkanaut and Wazzbom carry KFFs as well and KFF on bike also has no problems keeping up with them.

You need to think less inside your box. There is no sun there


Automatically Appended Next Post:

PiñaColada wrote:
Edit: The warhammer community article for today is supposed to be snakebites, what do you all reckon we get from that? Clan rule, a stratagem and a few "top units" again, or something different?

Snakebite poster units used to be boyz, gretchin and doks, so probably those?

I'm also pretty sure that we will see the snakebite stratagem, and we will get confirmation whether the 6+++ will work on vehicles.

Kirioth Shiny Gubbins leak




Da ded shiny shoota -. Replace kustom shoota
18" Assault 12 S4 Ap-1 D1

Headwoppa's Killchoppa - Replace big choppa
S+2 AP-2 D2 Wounds rolls of 6+ cause 2 mortal wounds in addition

Super cybork body
5+ FnP

Da Killa Klaw - Replace power klaw
Sx2 AP-3 D3 Reroll wounds

Scorched Gitbonez - Pysker only
Add 1 to psychic tests

Gitstoppa Shells - Model with kustom shoota, kombiweaponwith skorcha or kombiweapon with rokkits only
Add 1 to strength and damage of that weapons shoota or kustom shoota profile, improve the AP of that weapon by 1 as well (AP-1 becomes AP-2)

Da Lucky Stikk - Goff only
Add 1 to hit rolls made by friendly goff chracters within 6" of the bearer in the fight phase. In addition, you can reroll hit and damage rolls for attacks made by the bearer in the fight phase

Morgogs finkin cap - Blood axe only
If the bearer is your warlord you can generate a second warlord trait for them. If the bearer is not your warlord generate a warlord trait for them. The same warlord trait cannot be generated for both the bearer and the warlord.

Rezmekkas redder armour - Evil sunz only
Add 1 to the movement characteristic of a transport while this model is embarked within it. In addition, if the bearer is embarked, then at the start of your movement phase roll d6 for each enemy unit within 1" of the transport the bearr is embarked in. Ona 4+ that unit suffers d3 mortal wounds.

Da Gobshot Thunderbuss - Bad moons with kustom shoota or kombiskorcha/rokkit only
Replaces weapon with following profile
12" Heavy2d6 S5 AP-1 D1 This weapon automatically hits its target

Da Fixxer Upperz - Deathskulls model only
The bearer gains the big mekaniak ability. If the beaerer already had the big mekaniak ability, the target of the ability regains 3 lost wounds instead of d3 every time it's used

Broggs Buzzbom - Snakebite only
6" Grenade3d6 S5 AP-1 D1 This weapon can be used once per battle. After all of its attacks have been resolved, you can immediately select another enemy unit within 6" of the target and resolve 2d6 attacks against it with the sam weapon. This ability only occurs once. This weapons automatically hits its target

Da Badskull banner - Freebooterz only
Once per battle, at the start of your turn, the bearer of Da Badskull Banner can choose to fly on its boss pole. If they do so, friendly freebooter units do not have to take morale tests until the start of your next turn

Also the extra relics for 1/3cp if you like, same as everyone else

Meh.

At least we got our Klaw of tank flippin'.

No lukky stik or finkin kap? Meh. Probably just going to take the super cybork or da ded shiny shoota.

EDIT: the clan relics are way better. Love the evil sunz and bad moon ones, lukky stikk and finking kap are kind of boring now (I think the finking kap suffers from warlord traits not being as fun as they used to be).

There are, I've edited them all in now

the snakebites one though! think of that for screen-clearing!...get some hot rolls, there's 2 guard squads wiped out by a swarm of angry squig-bees!

 ZoBo wrote:
the snakebites one though! think of that for screen-clearing!...get some hot rolls, there's 2 guard squads wiped out by a swarm of angry squig-bees!

Kunnin' Marbork, mob of one.

Da ded shiny shoota -. Replace kustom shoota
18" Assault 12 S4 Ap-1 D1

- Meh. On a BS 5+ model this is only really 4 hitso are so at s4 ap-1 d1. It's like the marine bolter relics, but worse. Hard pass though it would be thematic on a bad moons or flashgitz boss.


Headwoppa's Killchoppa - Replace big choppa
S+2 AP-2 D2 Wounds rolls of 6+ cause 2 mortal wounds in addition

Very solid weapon. S8 ap-2 D2 TWO mortal wounds on a six is no joke. This is a big winner.

Super cybork body
5+ FnP

Ehhhh it's good, but I don't think it's going to be THE pick for a relic. It's not a bad option though so I won't rule it out, but I am not impressed.

Da Killa Klaw - Replace power klaw
Sx2 AP-3 D3 Reroll wounds

Yeah I mean if you have the relic slot laying around and the CP to burn it's not a bad upgrade over a normal PK. I can see it getting some use, but I prefer the kill choppa.

Scorched Gitbonez - Pysker only
Add 1 to psychic tests

Probably useless due to the weirdboy waaggh ability, but it never hurts to have more reliable psychic powers. Now if it did something interesting like let the weridboy deny powers with the additional bonuses he gets from having other orks around then we would be talking!

Gitstoppa Shells - Model with kustom shoota, kombiweaponwith skorcha or kombiweapon with rokkits only
Add 1 to strength and damage of that weapons shoota or kustom shoota profile, improve the AP of that weapon by 1 as well (AP-1 becomes AP-2)

Again this is going on a BS5+ model so good luck getting any value from it. It's somehow even worse than the dead shiny shoota.

Da Lucky Stikk - Goff only
Add 1 to hit rolls made by friendly goff chracters within 6" of the bearer in the fight phase. In addition, you can reroll hit and damage rolls for attacks made by the bearer in the fight phase

Not bad at all and an auto include if you are running some Goffs. Re-rolling hits and damage rolls is never a bad deal and the aura working on other characters is nice. It's not nearly as good as it was in 7th, but it's not bad here either. If I run Goffs I'll very likely be taking this.

Morgogs finkin cap - Blood axe only
If the bearer is your warlord you can generate a second warlord trait for them. If the bearer is not your warlord generate a warlord trait for them. The same warlord trait cannot be generated for both the bearer and the warlord.

I like this one. You're very likely paying 1 or 3cp to get another warlord trait. I can't recall all the warlord traits off of my head, but I think the blood axe one had something to do with re-deploy so this would be a neat little way to wiggle that in to your list and maintain another warlord trait on another character.


Rezmekkas redder armour - Evil sunz only
Add 1 to the movement characteristic of a transport while this model is embarked within it. In addition, if the bearer is embarked, then at the start of your movement phase roll d6 for each enemy unit within 1" of the transport the bearr is embarked in. Ona 4+ that unit suffers d3 mortal wounds.

This is an odd one. It makes you want to put your warlord in a combat transport and keep them there. I could see this having solid synergy with a cheap HQ hiding inside a mork/gorkanaught making it al ittle faster and a little more killy. Now if only the mek could repair it from the inside. Other than that it's really weird and I don't see it getting used much because unless your HQ is shooty it's being wasted hidden in a vehicle.


Da Gobshot Thunderbuss - Bad moons with kustom shoota or kombiskorcha/rokkit only
Replaces weapon with following profile
12" Heavy2d6 S5 AP-1 D1 This weapon automatically hits its target

The first good shooting relic. The range is limited, but on a fast warboss who is catching a ride this is pretty reliable. 7 hits on average is record breaking for Orks and the profile is not terrible. It comes from cheap weapons so if you are bad moons you will likely be bringing this.


Da Fixxer Upperz - Deathskulls model only
The bearer gains the big mekaniak ability. If the beaerer already had the big mekaniak ability, the target of the ability regains 3 lost wounds instead of d3 every time it's used

Yeah not bad. Adds some versatility to an HQ choice or buffs up your meks. It's basic and mostly boring, but by no means bad.

Broggs Buzzbom - Snakebite only
6" Grenade3d6 S5 AP-1 D1 This weapon can be used once per battle. After all of its attacks have been resolved, you can immediately select another enemy unit within 6" of the target and resolve 2d6 attacks against it with the sam weapon. This ability only occurs once. This weapons automatically hits its target

I like this one a lot. On a fast HQ who can get into position early this will be great for clearing screens. I can see this on a trike, bike or boss in a transport proving it's value. It's also solid against MEQ due to the strength, volume and AP. If you are snakesbites you are likely taking this.

Da Badskull banner - Freebooterz only
Once per battle, at the start of your turn, the bearer of Da Badskull Banner can choose to fly on its boss pole. If they do so, friendly freebooter units do not have to take morale tests until the start of your next turn

This one is very situational, but not useless. There are times where orks are vulnerable to morale when the mobs start dying and are cut off from each other. It's not an auto include, but can be a vital part of keeping you in a late game fight.

 Jidmah wrote:
Please do provide examples of weapons that do a lot better against T5/4+ multi-wound models than against T6/4+ multi-wound models.

Lasguns?
Dakkaguns?
Pulse carbines?

Any S5 weapon basically, but this is besides the point and I think you know it.

The charge range of an evil suns model near a warboss or wartrike by turn 2 is 2x(movement speed)+5x1"(evil suns trait)+2d6"(average 7)+2d6"(re-roll one or both, so average 9) with zero CP invested.

Soo they just need to be near (within 6" I think?) a wartrike (warboss doesn't give aura to vehicle) and Evil Sunz? Kinda specific.

On average, a deff dread will be able to assault something 33" away from it turn 2.
Nauts can go up to to 37"
Trukks and Battlewagons can go up to 45"
Koptas, dragstas and warbikers can be in combat with something 49" away

A goff battlewagon can advance 12"+d6 turn one, unload thrakka and his scarboyz 3" and then have them move, advance and charge for a total average range of 36"+base diameter

You have precious little time to shoot buggies.

It's interesting you bring up base diameter because from your post above I get the feeling your tables must look significantly different to mine, because mine have things like terrain and opposing models to get through. Apart from the Koptas, you've not named a flying vehicle and in my experience the board often won't allow the movement you're discussing here. This seems to be one of those expectations vs reality things, the boards are cluttered so you're not getting the Deff Dreads, Nauts, Battlewagons, Trukks and Warbikers all in combat with something. You can pick one or two of those units as natural choke points form on the table. The only exception to this of course is the Dragster if it teleports and the Koptas.

For example your goff battlewagon will be screened one way or another. Yes it has a significant threat range but when your opponent screens well it's kinda moot. You slaughter some chaff before getting blown/counter charged away.

They are the perfect choice for a Tellyporta drop, but then they don't come in until Turn 2.

And the enemy doesn't need a lot of time to kill these buggies. They don't have a durable stat line.

Morkanaut and Wazzbom carry KFFs as well and KFF on bike also has no problems keeping up with them.

You need to think less inside your box. There is no sun there

Aye they exist but does a 5++ really make these buggies that much more durable?

If they are 100ish, 120 points then these buggies are comparable to units with far superior durability and in many cases better shooting. Asscan Razorbacks dude, how much are they? Is the Dark Eldar transport the Ravager (I can't remember the name right now)? Doesn't that have a 5++ in built and isn't it comparable in cost with better ranged output?

What are you seeing that I'm not? I'd love to know how I'm going to keep these suckers alive/get best use out of them when I finally get them painted because I'll definitely be running them!

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
Rezmekkas redder armour - Evil sunz only
Add 1 to the movement characteristic of a transport while this model is embarked within it. In addition, if the bearer is embarked, then at the start of your movement phase roll d6 for each enemy unit within 1" of the transport the bearr is embarked in. Ona 4+ that unit suffers d3 mortal wounds.

This is an odd one. It makes you want to put your warlord in a combat transport and keep them there. I could see this having solid synergy with a cheap HQ hiding inside a mork/gorkanaught making it al ittle faster and a little more killy. Now if only the mek could repair it from the inside. Other than that it's really weird and I don't see it getting used much because unless your HQ is shooty it's being wasted hidden in a vehicle.

This is a great relic for a cheap Mek or Big Mek even in a transport. The thing is, for it to work in any way we need some way of keeping enemies in combat. Otherwise it will literally never work as our opponent chooses to leave combat and the mortal wounds never go off. If it went off at the start of every movement phase that would be something. As it is? I think it's a pass.

Da Killa Klaw - Replace power klaw
Sx2 AP-3 D3 Reroll wounds

Yeah I mean if you have the relic slot laying around and the CP to burn it's not a bad upgrade over a normal PK. I can see it getting some use, but I prefer the kill choppa.

No -1 to hit, and it's Damage 3, not D3 damage!

Da Gobshot Thunderbuss - Bad moons with kustom shoota or kombiskorcha/rokkit only
Replaces weapon with following profile

It replaces the "shoota" portion of the weapon. So technically you can still use the skorcha component of the gun!

 greggles wrote:

Da Killa Klaw - Replace power klaw
Sx2 AP-3 D3 Reroll wounds

Yeah I mean if you have the relic slot laying around and the CP to burn it's not a bad upgrade over a normal PK. I can see it getting some use, but I prefer the kill choppa.

No -1 to hit, and it's Damage 3, not D3 damage!

Da Gobshot Thunderbuss - Bad moons with kustom shoota or kombiskorcha/rokkit only
Replaces weapon with following profile

It replaces the "shoota" portion of the weapon. So technically you can still use the skorcha component of the gun!

That seems rather too generous to give Orks I'll be honest. No -1, auto 3 damage AND it re-rolls to wound? Even the space marine relics from the blood angels and crimson fists only give a set 3 damage to their thunder hammers and power fists alongside no -1 to hit. If that is the case then yeah this thing is a monster and auto include on a killy warboss.

I already liked the thunderbuss and if you can indeed use the skorcha with it that is pretty darn solid.

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

That seems rather too generous to give Orks I'll be honest. No -1, auto 3 damage AND it re-rolls to wound? Even the space marine relics from the blood angels and crimson fists only give a set 3 damage to their thunder hammers and power fists alongside no -1 to hit. If that is the case then yeah this thing is a monster and auto include on a killy warboss.

I already liked the thunderbuss and if you can indeed use the skorcha with it that is pretty darn solid.

If any army should be able to field the smash-captain/slamguinius type of character it should absolutely be orks.

 greggles wrote:

Da Killa Klaw - Replace power klaw
Sx2 AP-3 D3 Reroll wounds

Yeah I mean if you have the relic slot laying around and the CP to burn it's not a bad upgrade over a normal PK. I can see it getting some use, but I prefer the kill choppa.

No -1 to hit, and it's Damage 3, not D3 damage!

Da Gobshot Thunderbuss - Bad moons with kustom shoota or kombiskorcha/rokkit only
Replaces weapon with following profile

It replaces the "shoota" portion of the weapon. So technically you can still use the skorcha component of the gun!

Technically speaking we don't know if it's no -1 to hit. They just don't mention it in the video, not like it specifically mentions removing that negative modifier. It could've been omitted but all signs point to it being zoggin' amazing.

The thunderbuss is great, shame it's heavy though since otherwise you could still advance and fire off 3 skorchas. Still really solid

The problem with a warboss in CC is that they die to a stiff breeze so if you have multiple charges going off you basicallly need to choose him first, since they're glass cannons. That's something a slam captain has over them. Unless you get the bad moons warlord trait I guess

PiñaColada wrote:

 greggles wrote:

Da Killa Klaw - Replace power klaw
Sx2 AP-3 D3 Reroll wounds

Yeah I mean if you have the relic slot laying around and the CP to burn it's not a bad upgrade over a normal PK. I can see it getting some use, but I prefer the kill choppa.

No -1 to hit, and it's Damage 3, not D3 damage!

Da Gobshot Thunderbuss - Bad moons with kustom shoota or kombiskorcha/rokkit only
Replaces weapon with following profile

It replaces the "shoota" portion of the weapon. So technically you can still use the skorcha component of the gun!

Technically speaking we don't know if it's no -1 to hit. They just don't mention it in the video, not like it specifically mentions removing that negative modifier.

This is my guess as well. I think it just wasnt mentioned.

I think the blunderbuss replaces the whole weapon. Not just the shoota part.

 Weazel wrote:
tneva82 can you please lay off the "Boyz are useless at 7ppm" mantra already. The codex isn't even out yet.

I find it kinda funny that at 6ppm it's totally worth it to spam boyz and only boyz and at 7ppm they are suddenly utter trash not worth taking at all. A one point difference taking a model from autoinclude to never-include. Hyperbole at its finest.

6 ppm boyz are spammea not because they are good(they are sub mediaocre) but because they are least worst option. You either spam boyz or don't fieid orks at all.

And if codex doesn't boost other units to be worth taking over boyz(at which point boyz will never be taken) then orks took big nerf are worse of.

Simple fact is boyz swarm loses 60 modeis a turn vs suboptimal list. 6 turn game thus wipeout. 5 turn game and might avoid wipeout. However w:th 15% less boyt you last turn less. Games go minimum 5 turns so unless you slow play you are wiped out every game. This vs suboptimal gunline.

You make same mistake as fools in gw game dev and assume unit being used means it's good rather than least bad out of bad options. Orks don't have any other option to avoid wipeout if game goes 5 turns(6 turns is wipeout anyway)

Also they lost their only role in army. They were cheap bodies to sward objectives. Bs5 means they kill nothing(h2h is effectively ws7 as they won't get there) but now grots do that better being tougher

tneva82 wrote:

6 ppm boyz are spammea not because they are good(they are sub mediaocre) but because they are least worst option. You either spam boyz or don't fieid orks at all.

And if codex doesn't boost other units to be worth taking over boyz(at which point boyz will never be taken) then orks took big nerf are worse of.

Simple fact is boyz swarm loses 60 modeis a turn vs suboptimal list. 6 turn game thus wipeout. 5 turn game and might avoid wipeout. However w:th 15% less boyt you last turn less. Games go minimum 5 turns so unless you slow play you are wiped out every game. This vs suboptimal gunline.

You make same mistake as fools in gw game dev and assume unit being used means it's good rather than least bad out of bad options. Orks don't have any other option to avoid wipeout if game goes 5 turns(6 turns is wipeout anyway)

Also they lost their only role in army. They were cheap bodies to sward objectives. Bs5 means they kill nothing(h2h is effectively ws7 as they won't get there) but now grots do that better being tougher

I think this is a bit too pessimistic. If we are just talking survivability, you can go snakebites. You have 14.3% less orks, but those orks are 20% harder to kill. Sure the damage output suffers, but as you say, the main concern is getting into combat. A single boltgun shot (bs 4+) does 1.25 pts of damage against a 6pt boy, or 1.22 pts of damage against a 7pts snakebite boy.

And that's just if you ignore teleport strategem, green tide stratagem and Da Jump to get people in, and new strategems like get stuck in to double output if you do get into combat. On Evil Sunz, those 9 inch charges have a 64% chance of being succesful now.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Please do provide examples of weapons that do a lot better against T5/4+ multi-wound models than against T6/4+ multi-wound models.

Lasguns?
Dakkaguns?
Pulse carbines?

Any S5 weapon basically, but this is besides the point and I think you know it.

First of all, I want to let you know that I deleted an entire answer because it felt like I was arguing what you said, rather than discussing tactics. I want to discuss tactics and not argue, so I hope you feel the same..

S5 guns tend to have AP0 or AP-1 and only deal one damage. Since there are very few targets that they are great at killing, those weapons are quite rare in many armies, S6 is much more common because it wounds many chaff units on 2+.
A full unit of warbikers deals 2.5 more wounds against other warbikers than against a buggy, a strike team deals less than one additional wound against warbikers and the entire loyal 32 deal 3 additional damage to warbikers.

So while they are undeniably taking more damage from those guns, those guns aren't actually good at killing T5 models with multiple wounds. Most common S5 guns are made for killing T3 and T4 infantry with bad saves.
Compare the numbers above to what a plague marine unit with plasma guns does to them. Or helblasters or a knight's gatling cannon or a helverine. Those are the guns buggies need to worry about, and those kill buggies just as well as warbikers.
The goal of target saturation is to overload one kind of weapons with targets so they simply can't kill everything, and guns that efficiently kill warbikers are not efficiently killing buggies at the same time.

The charge range of an evil suns model near a warboss or wartrike by turn 2 is 2x(movement speed)+5x1"(evil suns trait)+2d6"(average 7)+2d6"(re-roll one or both, so average 9) with zero CP invested.

Soo they just need to be near (within 6" I think?) a wartrike (warboss doesn't give aura to vehicle) and Evil Sunz? Kinda specific.

Note I wrote models, since it's basically true for every evil suns model with an advance&charge aura nearby. I also assumed Evil Suns, since I feel that competitive meta will use them and no other clans, similar to how other top competitive factions always use the same traits.
What you said was that there is plenty of time to kill buggies first and other stuff later. Everything can be in combat turn 2, so if the ork player goes first there is no "later".
To kill those buggies, you'll have to make a decision to not deal 8 damage to a gorkanaut, trukk or battlewagon instead.
Every army aiming to be in combat should have warbosses or wartrikes and some units are going to be close to them. With the relics released, IMO a warboss or two will be mandatory since the combination of relics with warlords traits make for some really scary close combat monsters.

It's interesting you bring up base diameter because from your post above I get the feeling your tables must look significantly different to mine, because mine have things like terrain and opposing models to get through. Apart from the Koptas, you've not named a flying vehicle and in my experience the board often won't allow the movement you're discussing here.

The movement can be circular, around screens. No-mans land is 24", leaving 21" of movement to drive around screens and terrain. Also note that the fight twice stratagem makes castling up a deadly mistake, you can clear the screen, fight again and then have valuable targets stuck in combat. Most armies can't fall back and shoot afterwards.
There is also the possibility of gunning down screens now, as our shooting units suck a lot less. With their new guns, a unit of flash gits can just blow a unit of guardsmen off the table, with hot rolling maybe even two at once.

This seems to be one of those expectations vs reality things, the boards are cluttered so you're not getting the Deff Dreads, Nauts, Battlewagons, Trukks and Warbikers all in combat with something. You can pick one or two of those units as natural choke points form on the table. The only exception to this of course is the Dragster if it teleports and the Koptas.

Unless you tables have massive walls on them or city of death style boards, nothing prevents your models from just moving over terrain (losing movement distance in the process, of course). You have plenty of movement to go over and around things. Our tables look very similar to what can be seen at NOVA, ITC and similar events. If your gaming group likes overly cluttered boards, that's cool, but not a valid argument for general tactics, since most tables don't look that way.
My death guard army consists of multiple large models with close combat focus or 9" flamer range, I have never had any issues with choke points like you described. If such positions exist, I deploy fast models (for example, a wartrike and a pair of battle wagons) on a flank and drive around the side.

For example your goff battlewagon will be screened one way or another. Yes it has a significant threat range but when your opponent screens well it's kinda moot. You slaughter some chaff before getting blown/counter charged away.

It will be in charge range turn two. You have all of turn 1 and the shooting and psychic phase of turn 2 to gun down screens, or pull them apart with assaults (charge a buggy in each end of a screening unit, force them to pick one side to die or create a hole in the middle). Worst case, you charge those scarboys into a screen, fight them dead and then fight again to jump into the units behind.
The first half of 8th was all about screens and getting past screens, those strategies still work. There are a couple of decent articles on brownmagic on that, I can link them if you like.

They are the perfect choice for a Tellyporta drop, but then they don't come in until Turn 2.

Personally, I think tellyported transports should not have melee units inside, as those cannot charge before turn 3. As you cannot disembark afterwards. If I'd tellyport a battlewagon, it will probably contain flash gits or tank bustas. Dropping a battlewagon with 10 flash gits inside is a death sentence to any screening unit.
Fun thing I just realized while writing this, Badrukk + 2x flash gits + 1 battlewagon add up to be one freeboota spearhead
Add another 9 tank bustas to that and you can drop the dakka boat, blow up some chaff units with your gits and then fire away with badrukk, your tank bustas and the guns on your battlewagon at +1 BS. Bonus points for modeling your battlwagon as a pirate ship

And the enemy doesn't need a lot of time to kill these buggies. They don't have a durable stat line.

Against most weapons used to kill vehicles, they are just as durable as a daemon prince or dreadnought, while being about 20 points cheaper.
"Dies to anti-tank" is a universal truth for all vehicles in the game. Unless your model has more than 20 wounds, you will lose it turn one if it gets focus. The one question is whether it does get focus, and whether that is bad when the other stuff in your army is not shot instead.

My Mortarion has yet to survive my opponent's first turn, but I have won every game I fielded him - because if the kill Mortarion, they are not shooting anything else. For 100-120 points T6/8W/4+ is decent

Aye they exist but does a 5++ really make these buggies that much more durable?

As long as the weapon shooting them is AP-2 or better, 5++ means that they are just as durable as vehicle from any other codex. It mostly feths up lances, lascannons and plasma, which are the most common anti-tank measures in my experience.

If they are 100ish, 120 points then these buggies are comparable to units with far superior durability and in many cases better shooting. Asscan Razorbacks dude, how much are they?

Asscan razorback is 114, but will lose 1 BS when moving and degrades. So basically comparable vehicle for comparable costs.

Is the Dark Eldar transport the Ravager (I can't remember the name right now)? Doesn't that have a 5++ in built and isn't it comparable in cost with better ranged output?

You are probably thinking of the raider, which has one dark lance (heavy) or one disintegrator cannon at 3+ and T5/10W for 85. Definitely worse at shooting and degrades as well, but it's a transport. No really comparable.
If you are actually thinking of ravagers - those are not transports and probably one of the most busted units in the game right now. I doubt it will survive CA at 115 points since its shooting output makes battletanks look like pea shooters.

What are you seeing that I'm not? I'd love to know how I'm going to keep these suckers alive/get best use out of them when I finally get them painted because I'll definitely be running them!

I think you are simply used to getting all your units blown of the table due to the low power of the ork army in the past. Assuming this codex gets points, alpha-strike capabilities and defensive stratagems right, you will lose a lot less models.
Once your opponents need to start selecting which units to kill first, rather than simply killing all important units turn one, strategies like flanking movements, distraction carnifexes and tying down shooting units while your other units advance will become viable tactics.
If they don't get that balance right... well, then the stats for buggies don't matter either way.
But I think between the stratagems we know off so far (tellyporta, fight twice, grot screen, scarboyz), the relics and traits making warbosses more killy, the clan traits and the buffs to existing units, your opponents will have their hands full to stop your Waaagh! - and even if they still blow up your buggies first, you will no longer need to rely on boyz to get any lifting done.