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 Jidmah wrote:


Thanks for the write-up!

I must say, love the tank busta bombs going to boyz, but I'm not sure what to do with them on kommandoz.
As for killa kanz, you can just get the KMB from the index entry.
For the deff dread, I've been thinking about this. Maybe you should have 1 dreadklaw and 3 saws, so you'd have three attacks with the better profile for hard targets and three for targets with multiple models - the dread would end up costing 90 points that way.

your welcome

i think the claw/saw profiles only are used for their own attacks (1saw for 1 attack with saw, 3 claws for 3 attacks with claws)

geargutz wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:


I still think they'll have a place. There are tons of options otherwise.

The dakkawagon and the KMZ seem pretty solid. Teleporting/ambushing TBs, too. The anti-tank buggies seem like they're in the right point zone, but I need to see the book in person. Lootas if they're on 4+ armor.

i agree on the mekgun still ebing usefull, but soley on its merits of being something our army lacks many options for (long range durable shooting).

would be realy happy with 4+ lootas, but not expecting it. probabaly best way to run them is behind grot shield screens.

gunwagon im not sure about. will have to see. its got a lot of wounds, but like the stompa it doesn't sound like it does much damage for the amount of health it has. "all bark and very little bite"

I'll try 3x5 lootas + SAG mek as a deff skulls detachment. All of them get objective secured, 6++ and re-rolls, might make them worthwhile objective sitters. Better than having gretchin sit on objectives, but you might need those for CP anyways.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

geargutz wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:


Thanks for the write-up!

I must say, love the tank busta bombs going to boyz, but I'm not sure what to do with them on kommandoz.
As for killa kanz, you can just get the KMB from the index entry.
For the deff dread, I've been thinking about this. Maybe you should have 1 dreadklaw and 3 saws, so you'd have three attacks with the better profile for hard targets and three for targets with multiple models - the dread would end up costing 90 points that way.

your welcome

i think the claw/saw profiles only are used for their own attacks (1saw for 1 attack with saw, 3 claws for 3 attacks with claws)

Yeah, but you can choose which weapon you use the two base attacks with. So you get two base with the klaw, plus one additional one from klaw, and then three additional ones from the three saws.

 Jidmah wrote:


Yeah, but you can choose which weapon you use the two base attacks with. So you get two base with the klaw, plus one additional one from klaw, and then three additional ones from the three saws.

good point.

 Jidmah wrote:


I'll try 3x5 lootas + SAG mek as a deff skulls detachment. All of them get objective secured, 6++ and re-rolls, might make them worthwhile objective sitters. Better than having gretchin sit on objectives, but you might need those for CP anyways.

I'm leaning Bad Moon. Two units of 10. Mob up. Gretchin screen (because killing a gretchin is way better anyway and I don't need to bother with KFF).

Have a couple Traktor Kannons nearby for my opponent to blow up and get me on 3+ for the whole mob of 20.

Then More Dakka. That's 46.6 shots base (reroll on shot quantity). That goes to 62 shots with explosions. Reroll of 1s gets you another 2.5 on explodes.

25 hits, 12.5 wounds, 6.3 get through for 12.5 damage on an Armiger (8 on a knight).

Now use the double tap stratagem and double that.

Orks might actually slide the game to gunlines, because they have the melee protection to keep stuff off the back line and the gretchin keep things ridiculously safe.

On the lucky end of 3 shots each...it's 16 and 11 damage respectively.

It should be possible to discuss Orks without resorting to personal attacks.

Please play nicely!

What's the Mek Gun krew rule now? Wounds have to be allocated to the gun first? Or are the grots literally just decoration with no statline (which would seem really weird with the general trend of 8th edition where everything with its own base counts as a model).

 Perfect Organism wrote:
What's the Mek Gun krew rule now? Wounds have to be allocated to the gun first? Or are the grots literally just decoration with no statline (which would seem really weird with the general trend of 8th edition where everything with its own base counts as a model).

The grots can only be tagetted if they are the closest model, otherwise wounds go on the gun first, so losing the crew doesn't really change anything. Basically they have the character rule so they can't be used as ablative wounds, as well as to make it harder for just bolters to make the gun useless by killing all the grots instead.

geargutz wrote:
heres the collection of stuff i noticed when listening to striking scorpians stuff

Spoiler:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAPf876wQfE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSYaAwhNhO4&t=3833s

all this is suspect, since the person was reading it and he mightve missread some stuff, so none of this is final.
buff=for every10boyz, 1 tankbusta bomb (0pts)
nerf=tankbustas reroll tohit of 1s instead on failed hits (possible mistake)
buff=komandoes (8pt), 1 in every5 can take 1 tankbusta bomb (0pts)
runtherd=squig hound/grot lash only effects gretchin "infantry"
scrapjet has the same spiked ram (on top of havving its drill) as the boom blasta
nerf=stormboy full throttle just adds 6inches to advance, so no charging unless you have that warboss, and they still get the same mortal wounds from doing this (went from 8pt to 9pts)
buff=traktor kannon r48 hvy1 s8 -2 d6dmg (roll 2d6 and pick highest against flyers),if this kills a unit with fly it auto crash and burns,...what is auto hit that other have mentioned (maybe only against fly)?
gunwagon=comes with ardcase,under half speed in movement phase shoot twice with killkanon/zapgun/kanon (no rokets on any wagon) (dont know if there is better bs?)
killkan=no kmb anymore. (kmb is d6 dmg now).buzzsaw,kanclaw,drilla are all wpn options (all 0pts)
defdredd=(pl5)(can fit 3 in a tellyport),start with 2dredclaws (15each),looks like we can replace its existing claws with ranged wpns (dakka dredd!!!!????)(kmb spam? maybe not worth it but has clan traits for shooting),can take 4 dredsaws (cheaper melee option but less efficiant)
flashgits=1 ammo runt for every 5
truck=no rokets any more. is now 10pts cheaper then the warcopta (might be worth taking this instead?)
stompa=no change to the psyko daka blasta rules

edit, accidentally listed the tankbustas as 8pts when i meant to have that on the komandoes

Wow. It just keeps getting worse. If those stormboy and tankbusta change ls are true, that's just completely rediculous

lootaz are good because of grotshields. they dont need 4+ saves. (maybe 2 wounds )

With the codex rules about "Wargear not available, use the index".

Would it still be possible to have 5x Ammo runts in both Nob and FlashGitz squads? After all they are just wargear purchases.

 Eonfuzz wrote:
With the codex rules about "Wargear not available, use the index".

Would it still be possible to have 5x Ammo runts in both Nob and FlashGitz squads? After all they are just wargear purchases.

theoratically yes. but thats why i dont like using index stuff. its sort of WAAC.

but well... on the other hand i'm having a hard time on abandoning my MAN and biker warbosses :/

 Eonfuzz wrote:
With the codex rules about "Wargear not available, use the index".

Would it still be possible to have 5x Ammo runts in both Nob and FlashGitz squads? After all they are just wargear purchases.

Pull that one and you'll see tournaments move to ban indexes for released armies a lot more quickly.

RedNoak wrote:

 Eonfuzz wrote:
With the codex rules about "Wargear not available, use the index".

Would it still be possible to have 5x Ammo runts in both Nob and FlashGitz squads? After all they are just wargear purchases.

theoratically yes. but thats why i dont like using index stuff. its sort of WAAC.

but well... on the other hand i'm having a hard time on abandoning my MAN and biker warbosses :/

Yeah, i'd gone and converted a bunch of my Nobz to have Killsaws and dubbed them "Da Kan Openerz", but they may not be possible to run anymore via codex. Which will suck.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Eonfuzz wrote:
With the codex rules about "Wargear not available, use the index".

Would it still be possible to have 5x Ammo runts in both Nob and FlashGitz squads? After all they are just wargear purchases.

Pull that one and you'll see tournaments move to ban indexes for released armies a lot more quickly.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Chaos players have been running 9x Demon princes because of the Index stat sheet and codex sheets, right?

 Eonfuzz wrote:


Correct me if I'm wrong, but Chaos players have been running 9x Demon princes because of the Index stat sheet and codex sheets, right?

No, that's all codex stuff unfortunately.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Eonfuzz wrote:


Correct me if I'm wrong, but Chaos players have been running 9x Demon princes because of the Index stat sheet and codex sheets, right?

No, that's all codex stuff unfortunately.

But any Craftworld player that takes an Autarch is taking index options of swooping hawk wings & reaper launcher. There's other armies that use index options.

 Eonfuzz wrote:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Chaos players have been running 9x Demon princes because of the Index stat sheet and codex sheets, right?

Maybe some are, but that is actually exploitable all through codices. Daemon prince of tzeentch, normal daemon prince and daemon prince of nurgle are all separate datasheets so you could easily take 9 DP's if you wanted to without looking at the index

PiñaColada wrote:

 Eonfuzz wrote:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Chaos players have been running 9x Demon princes because of the Index stat sheet and codex sheets, right?

Maybe some are, but that is actually exploitable all through codices. Daemon prince of tzeentch, normal daemon prince and daemon prince of nurgle are all separate datasheets so you could easily take 9 DP's if you wanted to without looking at the index

Don't forget Daemon Prince of Chaos!

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Eonfuzz wrote:


Correct me if I'm wrong, but Chaos players have been running 9x Demon princes because of the Index stat sheet and codex sheets, right?

No, that's all codex stuff unfortunately.

But any Craftworld player that takes an Autarch is taking index options of swooping hawk wings & reaper launcher. There's other armies that use index options.

And the loss of Mega-amored warboss really hurts. It was possibly the one model almost everyone had as a kitbash.

Aside from the Ammo runts, what other kinds of wargear cheese can orks pull off with the upcoming codex.
Could we pick up Gretchin for the Mek Guns?

Attack Squigs for Warbosses?

Wow. It just keeps getting worse. If those stormboy and tankbusta change ls are true, that's just completely rediculous

Stormboys can deepstrike again. I didn't list it because I thought some one else already had talked about it here.

Killkannon is S8 now apparently?

geargutz wrote:

Wow. It just keeps getting worse. If those stormboy and tankbusta change ls are true, that's just completely rediculous

Stormboys can deepstrike again. I didn't list it because I thought some one else already had talked about it here.

yeah but not beeing able to advance and charge? thats just mean :/

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Eonfuzz wrote:


Correct me if I'm wrong, but Chaos players have been running 9x Demon princes because of the Index stat sheet and codex sheets, right?

No, that's all codex stuff unfortunately.

But any Craftworld player that takes an Autarch is taking index options of swooping hawk wings & reaper launcher. There's other armies that use index options.

Only a matter of time before index options are phased out.

I've been thinking on it, and I think there's some really cheesy things we could do RAW with the phasing out.

So with the Index vs Codex discussion, you're allowed to take any wargear if it exists in the index (But with the codex rules). Because GW are bad at writing rules that means we can do the following:

Take 1-5 Ammo Grots with Flashgits
Take 1-5 Ammo Grots with Nobz
Take 1 Cybork with Nobz
Take 1-5 Gretchin with Kustom Mega Guns
Take Attack Squig with Warboss
Take the Wargear option of "Big bomm" for Koptas as well as the default "Big bomm".

Anything else?

 Eonfuzz wrote:
I've been thinking on it, and I think there's some really cheesy things we could do RAW with the phasing out.

So with the Index vs Codex discussion, you're allowed to take any wargear if it exists in the index (But with the codex rules). Because GW are bad at writing rules that means we can do the following:

Take 1-5 Ammo Grots with Flashgits
Take 1-5 Ammo Grots with Nobz
Take 1 Cybork with Nobz
Take 1-5 Gretchin with Kustom Mega Guns
Take Attack Squig with Warboss
Take the Wargear option of "Big bomm" for Koptas as well as the default "Big bomm".

Anything else?

Warboss still gets the attack squigg, so no index needed on that one.

I don't think you can take index wargear if it's not listed in the codex data sheet for the unit. Does ITC allow this?

First I would like to apologize for sounding a bit know it all earlier. Frankly I don’t play orks nor plan on starting them. Also I honestly don’t know for certain whether or not orks will be top tier. That being said I want to say a few things in my defense,

1st) for those checking my history i have or do play the armies I posted about previously.

2nd) just because I don’t play orks doesn’t mean my points aren’t valid. For one I’ve talked to enough tournament players to know that index orks weren’t nearly as bad as often touted on forums like these. Not quite good enough to be easily played or place high in tournaments, but great ork players could still do 4-2 and 5-1 with it. Second is the fact the codex has just been revealed. I doubt many of naysayers have had a real opportunity to playtest the book, so they’re pretty much as much in dark as I am. Yeah they may know better than I for what was good before, but that doesn’t mean they know what is good now. Which brings me to my third point.

3rd) Playtesteters have been raving about the codex. I know Reece might be somewhat controversial around here, but it is a fact that he plays orks and thinks the codex is very good after playing it. Additionally Geoff Robinson has also stated the codex to be very good, a player who frequently places high at huge tournaments. I’m choosing to trust these guys and my own logic over people who have never played the codex.

You may disagree with my opinion that’s fine, but please at least get some games in with the new rules before calling for GW’s head. Just like I can’t know right now that the codex is good, you can’t know that the codex will be bad. I guess what I’m saying is to wait a few months before bringing out the “Why does GW hate orks?” Threads.

Salt donkey wrote:
First I would like to apologize for sounding a bit know it all earlier. Frankly I don’t play orks nor plan on starting them. Also I honestly don’t know for certain whether or not orks will be top tier. That being said I want to say a few things in my defense,

1st) for those checking my history i have or do play the armies I posted about previously.

2nd) just because I don’t play orks doesn’t mean my points aren’t valid. For one I’ve talked to enough tournament players to know that index orks weren’t nearly as bad as often touted on forums like these. Not quite good enough to be easily played or place high in tournaments, but great ork players could still do 4-2 and 5-1 with it. Second is the fact the codex has just been revealed. I doubt many of naysayers have had a real opportunity to playtest the book, so they’re pretty much as much in dark as I am. Yeah they may know better than I for what was good before, but that doesn’t mean they know what is good now. Which brings me to my third point.

3rd) Playtesteters have been raving about the codex. I know Reece might be somewhat controversial around here, but it is a fact that he plays orks and thinks the codex is very good after playing it. Additionally Geoff Robinson has also stated the codex to be very good, a player who frequently places high at huge tournaments. I’m choosing to trust these guys and my own logic over people who have never played the codex.

You may disagree with my opinion that’s fine, but please at least get some games in with the new rules before calling for GW’s head. Just like I can’t know right now that the codex is good, you can’t know that the codex will be bad. I guess what I’m saying is to wait a few months before bringing out the “Why does GW hate orks?” Threads.

Your as entitled to your opinion as anyone else. This is a forum for 40k discussion and everyone can weigh in on any army.

my opinion on the codex is its a very lateral change for orks. we get all these cool strats/traits yet very little in the codex changed much.

a good way to determine if a codex is good or not is get rid of the strats and traits. see how well a codex does without the toys that are more or less window dressing for imbalance. if i ran my codex against a darkeldar player without our or his strats then im pretty sure i would lose badly.

now dont say "it was costed with the strats in mind"

as us ork players have said many times that this didn't happen for many codex's and they infact got good price decreases as well as the strats.

ive come close to having a game like this.it was apokalype (no cp or strats or traits used).
i went against codex tau and guard, 200pl each. i was running my dex, with 500pl total. i ran the dredmob.
i outnumbered them and i got tabled by turn 3.

not only did i have the pts advantage, but i had the numbers.

now someone might say "but you were just index", but since we were all playing without the "windowdressing" and that the codex has changed very little when it come to points then its apparent i was playing with essentially the codex already (i just didnt know it yet). our codex is a trashfire, and the only thing that is going to keep it alive is the use of strats/traits.

GW is just only covering up the major problem.

geargutz wrote:



a good way to determine if a codex is good or not is get rid of the strats and traits. see how well a codex does without the toys that are more or less window dressing for imbalance.

I think that's possibly the worst possible way to look at the power level of anything. The most OP thing back before the FAQ was CP farm because of the stratagems it supported. Stratagems are how the game works and can literally decide whether or not a unit is any good.

I wonder how good Iron Warrior cultists would be without Cold & Bitter, Veterans of the Long War, and Tide of Traitors (a stratagem which has already been nerfed once).

Stratagems propel bad units into good ones, and good units to the highest tiers of the game.

And Orks also have a surprising amount of permanent improvement stratagems.
'Ard boyz
Skarboyz
Loot it!
Warphead
These are all (not you 'ardboyz) great and can easily be acquired if you run a double battalion or brigade without stressing your CP account for the rest of the game.

Ultimately I'm not sure where Orks are going to place in tournaments a few months down the line, but they will force players to invest heavily in screens again. With the nerf to FLY & deepstrike it seems like a lot of people starting skimping on chaff. The amount of orks that can be in your face early game is potentially insane. I don't see how that is consistently mitigated without a hefty bubblewrap budget...

 SHUPPET wrote:

geargutz wrote:



a good way to determine if a codex is good or not is get rid of the strats and traits. see how well a codex does without the toys that are more or less window dressing for imbalance.

I think that's possibly the worst possible way to look at the power level of anything. The most OP thing back before the FAQ was CP farm because of the stratagems it supported. Stratagems are how the game works and can literally decide whether or not a unit is any good.

I wonder how good Iron Warrior cultists would be without Cold & Bitter, Veterans of the Long War, and Tide of Traitors (a stratagem which has already been nerfed once).

Stratagems propel bad units into good ones, and good units to the highest tiers of the game.

strats/traits/etc
these are formation bonuses all over again.
it gives buffs. in 8th you pay for it with cp, in 7th you pay for it by being required to take units you wouldn't normally take. but it was maliciously;y abused, and its still going to be abused. strats will give outrageous bonuses for very little cp, just like how many formations got outrageous bonuses without requiring any poor units.

some are favored, some arnt. but if orks are favored with the strats this edition, it is only covering up how badly balanced our codex is. playing without formations or strats is like playing any edition before 7th.

GW doesn't have to worry about doing the hard maths (or even the simple maths) if they just throw us shiny new bling to drape over our horrifically ugly balanced codex. dont be fooled by the bling. see it for what it is.

its fun, strats are fun, but its like an explosion in a Michael bay film, its there to distract you that your actually watching a poorly made movie.