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I oppose the ignore -1ap or +1sv suggestions since it makes terminators too durable against moderate counters like heavy bolter, reaper ac, invalidates Necron infantry point value etc. A 3+ against 10 to 15pt low quantity weapons, or 2+ in cover is plenty good.

I do think the invuln save can be traded for a more relevant option like reducing dmg by 1. This option would hurt autocannons and overcharged plas but the overcharge would still have benefits. The next question is would custodes get it by association? Do they need it? Death guard?

Fixing power fists and plasma balance would also benefit them.

I don’t think they should be base 2+ WS/BS, but instead should have 3+, with an option to make them veterans w/ 2+.

And fluff wise, I can’t think of any reason to give them “always hits on a 3+” - I think that just doesn’t fit.

Always Hits On 3's doesn't make any of the regular Power Weapons perform better nor does it help non-Scarab Occult and Deathwatch Terminators with being armed with just a Storm Bolter. You guys can't ignore every Terminator besides the Storm Bolter/Power Fist variant. There. Are. Others.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Tylendal wrote:
They die a little too easily to specialized weapons.
Improving their save to +1 would help them slightly against all weapons.
Alternately, giving them a special rule that means they take only half damage (rounded down to a minimum of 1) would make them a little bit tougher against specialized weapons.

Why would you make them more durable to weapons that were designed to kill them? That makes no sense.

Terminators should be resilient to everything. They pay enough points to need to reduce all incoming damage significantly.

You're trying to make them, point for point, more resilient than several vehicles. Just...no.

Shas'O'Ceris wrote:
I do think the invuln save can be traded for a more relevant option like reducing dmg by 1. This option would hurt autocannons and overcharged plas but the overcharge would still have benefits. The next question is would custodes get it by association? Do they need it? Death guard?

Actually this isn't bad at all. I still like +1 wound for its simplicity, but trading the Invul for a rule that outright lowers Damage by 1 (to min 1) not only has precedence from other units, but it really sticks it to Plasma, which is a major reason Termies suck right now.

So what do you all think of this for Termies, with no other changes at all (aside from +1 attack, which will help with standard melee weapons):
Trade 5+ Invul for this rule: "Models with this rule reduce Damage by 1 to a minimum of 1"
And this rule: "Units with this rule always hit on 3+ regardless of modifiers in the Shooting and Fight phases. Note that this does not include Overwatch"

Those 2 changes alone will make Termies far more durable and gives them a purpose in the meta.
And there actually IS a fluff reason to give them "Always hits on 3+". It's the same reason in prior editions that they could shoot Heavy weapons while moving: they are a stable platform.

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Tylendal wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Tylendal wrote:
They die a little too easily to specialized weapons.
Improving their save to +1 would help them slightly against all weapons.
Alternately, giving them a special rule that means they take only half damage (rounded down to a minimum of 1) would make them a little bit tougher against specialized weapons.

Why would you make them more durable to weapons that were designed to kill them? That makes no sense.

Because as it is right now, weapons designed to kill Terminators are too good at their job. Anti-terminator weapons should be fairly effective against terminators, yeah, but right now, they basically just evaporate them.

Terminators have become more durable to several weapons rather than becoming weaker. Feel free to create a list. I will if you won't.

What you're experiencing is that suddenly you have weapons that aren't complete junk at hitting 2+ armor, OR even 3+ armor because of the old silly "all or nothing" AP system last time around. Yeah they're weaker to Battle Cannons, but they're also stronger against Shuriken Catapults and such.

 Galef wrote:
My only issue with 1+ armour is that it really makes their Invul save situational. I like it, but it creates another problem.

I do like the "always hits on 3+" for WS and BS. I like that better than WS/BS2+. Along with an extra melee attack.
---------------

This is what I am currently thinking:

All Terminator equivalents get +1 wound (really all Marine equivalents too) as this will reflect their resilience to small arms fire, as well as balancing for Plasma. Also give them a minimum of 3 melee attacks, Sgts get 4.
Receive a rule like "Stable platform: units with this rule always hit on 3+ regardless of modifiers"
Give Leader equivalents like Sergeants WS/BS2+

Finally, I would make the minimum unit size 3, but you wouldn't get access to the special weapon unless you take 5, but you can take 2 per 5.
So you can take 3, but you'll want 5 in most cases to get 2 Reaper launchers, or Typhoon Missile Launchers or Assault cannons, etc.
Chaos Termies might still do only 3 as they can take all Combi-weapons.

The main thing is that by giving them a rule to "always hit on 3+" you give them back a "niche" that few other units can do. Especially in the meta of -1 to hit army traits

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Yeah +1 wound works too. It would help make them just about as durable as a +1 save to. This is enough to solve their durability problem.
The main thing is people need to understand their problem is two fold. They aren't durable enough - and their close combat ability pathetic for their cost.

Hey guys, repeat after me:
They're. More. Durable. Against. More. Weapons. Than. Being. Weaker. To. More. Weapons.

Give them another wound, and suddenly Occult and Blightlords are silly durable. Paladins are then point for point more durable than Custodes.

All I'm saying is that +1 wound and +1 attack solves their durability (i.e. not being 1 shotted by Plasma) and melee effectiveness problems in the simplest manner possible.

Adding to this an "Always hits on 3+" rule can solve SEVERAL problems as well:
1) They are stable platforms that didn't suffer negatives for Heavy weapons in prior editions.
2) They are "Veterans" and should have some level of skill above other Marines.
3) They need something that makes them stand out in 8E.

All 3 problems can be addressed with this 2 simple rule. You don't need to bump their WS/BS to 2+. It can help with 1 & 2, but doesn't do much for 3.

Please note that I am not intending to apply the +1 wound to Characters, as they already have plenty of wounds

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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Always Hits On 3's doesn't make any of the regular Power Weapons perform better nor does it help non-Scarab Occult and Deathwatch Terminators with being armed with just a Storm Bolter. You guys can't ignore every Terminator besides the Storm Bolter/Power Fist variant. There. Are. Others.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Tylendal wrote:
They die a little too easily to specialized weapons.
Improving their save to +1 would help them slightly against all weapons.
Alternately, giving them a special rule that means they take only half damage (rounded down to a minimum of 1) would make them a little bit tougher against specialized weapons.

Why would you make them more durable to weapons that were designed to kill them? That makes no sense.

Terminators should be resilient to everything. They pay enough points to need to reduce all incoming damage significantly.

You're trying to make them, point for point, more resilient than several vehicles. Just...no.

First of all - they are vehicles. They are tactical dreadnoughts. Plus - if the suggested changes still keep them well below the durability of a custode.
Would they be more durable per point than grots? NOPE.
What vehicles are you talking about anyways?

w1zard wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Gotta go horde-like to be any good in 8th. Elites are dead.

I see no reason why elite armies couldn't work if pointed appropriately. They would still need chaff screens like every army does, but you can still have a space marine army with cheaper chaff units... like say 9 point scouts with 1W?

Because they will always suffer disproportionately from any amount of AP. And 2 damage weapons if you go the "tack on a wound" route. You need 3 wounds minimum to be "elite" in 8th.


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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Hey guys, repeat after me:
They're. More. Durable. Against. More. Weapons. Than. Being. Weaker. To. More. Weapons.

Give them another wound, and suddenly Occult and Blightlords are silly durable. Paladins are then point for point more durable than Custodes.

I'd give Custodes 5 wounds, since grotesques have 4. And then go from there. The entire design space needs to be expanded a bit, I think.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Hey guys, repeat after me:
They're. More. Durable. Against. More. Weapons. Than. Being. Weaker. To. More. Weapons.

Give them another wound, and suddenly Occult and Blightlords are silly durable. Paladins are then point for point more durable than Custodes.

We get it - their durability was a joke and they got slightly better vs light firepower and less durable vs lots of weapons too. AP3 weapons now rek them in droves when they used to laugh them off. What you are left with is a trash unit.

What is wrong with a paladin being more durable than a custode? Custode terminators are T5 with 4 wounds anyways...so they aren't more durable.

 Galef wrote:
All I'm saying is that +1 wound and +1 attack solves their durability (i.e. not being 1 shotted by Plasma) and melee effectiveness problems in the simplest manner possible.

Adding to this an "Always hits on 3+" rule can solve SEVERAL problems as well:
1) They are stable platforms that didn't suffer negatives for Heavy weapons in prior editions.
2) They are "Veterans" and should have some level of skill above other Marines.
3) They need something that makes them stand out in 8E.

All 3 problems can be addressed with this 2 simple rule. You don't need to bump their WS/BS to 2+. It can help with 1 & 2, but doesn't do much for 3.

Please note that I am not intending to apply the +1 wound to Characters, as they already have plenty of wounds

-

Anyone saying their issues is that they were one-shot by Plasma is flatly lying. There were two issues with Terminators since forever:
1. They don't do jack offensively. We ALL agree on this, but we all have different manners of trying to handle it.
2. They died easily to small arms for the cost as well with the AP2 weapons being prolific.

The latter problem was fixed via that second wound a bunch of you wanted in previous editions, and now they are more durable to most weapons (Bolters, Grav Guns, Scatterlasers, Shuriken Catapults, Lascannons), have the same durability because of the AP system (Gauss Flayers, Heavy Bolters, Gatling Cannon) or did end up having worse durability (Gauss weapons outside the Flayer, Autocannon, Battlecannon). That's just people not understanding how much better the AP system is with being mods instead though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Always Hits On 3's doesn't make any of the regular Power Weapons perform better nor does it help non-Scarab Occult and Deathwatch Terminators with being armed with just a Storm Bolter. You guys can't ignore every Terminator besides the Storm Bolter/Power Fist variant. There. Are. Others.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Tylendal wrote:
They die a little too easily to specialized weapons.
Improving their save to +1 would help them slightly against all weapons.
Alternately, giving them a special rule that means they take only half damage (rounded down to a minimum of 1) would make them a little bit tougher against specialized weapons.

Why would you make them more durable to weapons that were designed to kill them? That makes no sense.

Terminators should be resilient to everything. They pay enough points to need to reduce all incoming damage significantly.

You're trying to make them, point for point, more resilient than several vehicles. Just...no.

First of all - they are vehicles. They are tactical dreadnoughts. Plus - if the suggested changes still keep them well below the durability of a custode.
Would they be more durable per point than grots? NOPE.
What vehicles are you talking about anyways?

Rhinos are the biggest offender here once you've tacked on as many defensive rules as you want.

Actually I rip up terminators with goddamn Stalkers. I only need to leak through a couple wounds to remove 80 pts. Terminators should NOT be weak to AA guns. Meanwhile, I have all the time in the world because terminators shoot so poorly.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Hey guys, repeat after me:
They're. More. Durable. Against. More. Weapons. Than. Being. Weaker. To. More. Weapons.

Give them another wound, and suddenly Occult and Blightlords are silly durable. Paladins are then point for point more durable than Custodes.

We get it - their durability was a joke and they got slightly better vs light firepower and less durable vs lots of weapons too. AP3 weapons now rek them in droves when they used to laugh them off. What you are left with is a trash unit.

What is wrong with a paladin being more durable than a custode? Custode terminators are T5 with 4 wounds anyways...so they aren't more durable.

They're twice as durable to the small arms that actually made them a joke, and the list of thing they became more durable against exceeds the list they became less durable against.

Also you do realize that regular Custodes are W3 and the Terminators W4. Basically your Custodes Terminator is paying like 20+ points for +1T and the 4++. You can't scale, time and time again.

Yes, they fixed the old problem and then brought in the -1/-2 AP 2 damage problem. That's not an improvement. Only a sidegrade.

Obviously, specific units would need specific alterations. For example, if regular GK Termies get 3 wounds, Paladins could stay at 3 wounds, but gain WS/BS2+. They already have access to 2 Heavy Weapons per 5 (compared to 1 per 5 for the GKTs). Paladins also have Apothecaries still, correct?
So Paladins wouldn need the +1 wound, but could still receive the +1 attack (as most Termies with this change), but would get WS/BS2+ to reflect their "Elite of the Elite" status.

That's just 1 example.

Occult and Death Guard Termies would be adjusted similarly.
But for "Standard" Termies, +1 wound and +1 attack would be enough. The "Always hit on 3+" rule is to add the cherry on top to give them a "niche"

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Martel732 wrote:
Actually I rip up terminators with goddamn Stalkers. I only need to leak through a couple wounds to remove 80 pts. Terminators should NOT be weak to AA guns. Meanwhile, I have all the time in the world because terminators shoot so poorly.

They shouldn't be weak to guns designed to destroy aircraft?

I get the impression that terminator armor is much thicker than aircraft armor. Also, the point yield per failed save is just too high. They're not just weak, it's catastrophic. On the right board, it's worse than plasma because of range.

For the current "elite" infantry to work, 2 damage weapons need to be rare and valuable. Instead, they're cheap and plentiful. That means that elites need more than 2 wounds. To me, this is not negotiable in the current game.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Hey guys, repeat after me:
They're. More. Durable. Against. More. Weapons. Than. Being. Weaker. To. More. Weapons.

Give them another wound, and suddenly Occult and Blightlords are silly durable. Paladins are then point for point more durable than Custodes.

We get it - their durability was a joke and they got slightly better vs light firepower and less durable vs lots of weapons too. AP3 weapons now rek them in droves when they used to laugh them off. What you are left with is a trash unit.

What is wrong with a paladin being more durable than a custode? Custode terminators are T5 with 4 wounds anyways...so they aren't more durable.

They're twice as durable to the small arms that actually made them a joke, and the list of thing they became more durable against exceeds the list they became less durable against.

Also you do realize that regular Custodes are W3 and the Terminators W4. Basically your Custodes Terminator is paying like 20+ points for +1T and the 4++. You can't scale, time and time again.

Yeah I realize it.
The custode terms are overcosted anyways. For like 5 more points they can be on a jetbike with twice the firepower t6 and double the movement. It's pretty obvious they are overcosted.

Lots of units need fixing. The thread is "how to make terms worthwhile" not how do we fix every unit in the game.

Fixing plasma, in other words fixing the over abundance of S8 AP-3 D2 shots, in the game and MOST things begin to balance out. Of course, the pricing on special weapons need to be revised overall as well.

The fact that a weapon that costs 13 pts has 37.04% chance to kill a 42 pt model @ >12" and 74.07% chance at @ <12" is a serious game breaker when it comes to list building.

2W's just don't cut it at any level in the game currently. Statistically two 1W model is more durable than a single 2W model.

It's a serious problem the designers just can't seem to grasp at the moment - perhaps they're waiting on larger overhaul to bring in these changes.

This leads back to exactly why SM players are so whiny about 8th ed - majority of other faction's "durable" unit are often T based or has 3W. This application of "make marines appear tougher by giving them 2W's instead of 1W, which in comparison to other units that fill similar role that only has 1W, are TWICE more durable" idea is seriously hurting marines and almost singularly marines alone.

Martel732 wrote:
I get the impression that terminator armor is much thicker than aircraft armor. Also, the point yield per failed save is just too high. They're not just weak, it's catastrophic. On the right board, it's worse than plasma because of range.

For the current "elite" infantry to work, 2 damage weapons need to be rare and valuable. Instead, they're cheap and plentiful. That means that elites need more than 2 wounds. To me, this is not negotiable in the current game.

Well honestly...If we look at history. Anti aircraft weapons are anti tank weapons. They just have the wrong stats in this game. They should have battle cannon stats - not autocannon stats.

German 88mm anti aircraft weapon was the main armament of the Tiger 1. Which was probably the best anti tank weapon in WW2.
Stalkers quite literally should have 2d6 str 8 ap-2 d3 damage for the purpose of your discussion. They should rek tanks.

Martel732 wrote:
I get the impression that terminator armor is much thicker than aircraft armor. Also, the point yield per failed save is just too high. They're not just weak, it's catastrophic. On the right board, it's worse than plasma because of range.

For the current "elite" infantry to work, 2 damage weapons need to be rare and valuable. Instead, they're cheap and plentiful. That means that elites need more than 2 wounds. To me, this is not negotiable in the current game.

I agree. At the very least Termies need one of 2 changes:
A) +1 wound. This is simple, prevents being 1 shot by overcharge Plasma. Downside is that it cannot be applied wholesale to all TEQs because some would end up with 4+ wounds.
OR
B) A special rule for all Terminator Armour that replaces the Invul save with an Damage Reduction by 1. Not as elegant as +1 wound, but could potentially be applied to all TEQs

-

 Galef wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I get the impression that terminator armor is much thicker than aircraft armor. Also, the point yield per failed save is just too high. They're not just weak, it's catastrophic. On the right board, it's worse than plasma because of range.

For the current "elite" infantry to work, 2 damage weapons need to be rare and valuable. Instead, they're cheap and plentiful. That means that elites need more than 2 wounds. To me, this is not negotiable in the current game.

I agree. At the very least Termies need one of 2 changes:
A) +1 wound. This is simple, prevents being 1 shot by overcharge Plasma. Downside is that it cannot be applied wholesale to all TEQs because some would end up with 4+ wounds.
OR
B) A special rule for all Terminator Armour that replaces the Invul save with an Damage Reduction by 1. Not as elegant as +1 wound, but could potentially be applied to all TEQs

-

Well the problem I have with is - plasma is supposed to be good at killing terms. A change like this quite literally makes the weapon the worst choice for killing TEQ. +1 wound is a much better fix as it only nerfs plasma wounds by 50% - not 100%.

I too am more for +1 wound not only for the reason you mention, but it also helps vs D1 weapons.

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 Galef wrote:
Downside is that it cannot be applied wholesale to all TEQs because some would end up with 4+ wounds.
-

Having 3W vs 4W would equal same durability against 2 OC plasmas though, so it wouldn't matter as much as you currently believe it would.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galef wrote:
I too am more for +1 wound not only for the reason you mention, but it also helps vs D1 weapons.

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Yeah but in the past (not tha tit matters in 8th ed but) anything short of plasma would bounce off termies on 2+, so I'd say it's a pretty valid translation.

 skchsan wrote:

 Galef wrote:
Downside is that it cannot be applied wholesale to all TEQs because some would end up with 4+ wounds.
-

Having 3W vs 4W would equal same durability against 2 OC plasmas though, so it wouldn't matter as much as you currently believe it would.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galef wrote:
I too am more for +1 wound not only for the reason you mention, but it also helps vs D1 weapons.

-

Yeah but in the past (not tha tit matters in 8th ed but) anything short of plasma would bounce off termies on 2+, so I'd say it's a pretty valid translation.

And then you just forget about other weapons conveniently. Now Lascannons only kill them 1/3 of the time!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galef wrote:
I too am more for +1 wound not only for the reason you mention, but it also helps vs D1 weapons.

-

They're already twice as durable to almost all D1 weapons. What more could you want?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
And then you just forget about other weapons conveniently. Now Lascannons only kill them 1/3 of the time!

Yah I did. Which is why I suggested fixing plasma is the better option above.

OMFG - fixing a single weapon is not going to make termiantors viable.

It is without a doubt they need across the board survivability increase as does just about every unit in the space marine codex.

Quite honestly - plasma is not even a problem. It's a suicide weapon - 12" effective range and it can kill you just by shooting it.

Plasma would still be good at killing 3 w terminators.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Hey guys, repeat after me:
They're. More. Durable. Against. More. Weapons. Than. Being. Weaker. To. More. Weapons.

Give them another wound, and suddenly Occult and Blightlords are silly durable. Paladins are then point for point more durable than Custodes.

We get it - their durability was a joke and they got slightly better vs light firepower and less durable vs lots of weapons too. AP3 weapons now rek them in droves when they used to laugh them off. What you are left with is a trash unit.

What is wrong with a paladin being more durable than a custode? Custode terminators are T5 with 4 wounds anyways...so they aren't more durable.

They're twice as durable to the small arms that actually made them a joke, and the list of thing they became more durable against exceeds the list they became less durable against.

Also you do realize that regular Custodes are W3 and the Terminators W4. Basically your Custodes Terminator is paying like 20+ points for +1T and the 4++. You can't scale, time and time again.

Yeah I realize it.
The custode terms are overcosted anyways. For like 5 more points they can be on a jetbike with twice the firepower t6 and double the movement. It's pretty obvious they are overcosted.

Lots of units need fixing. The thread is "how to make terms worthwhile" not how do we fix every unit in the game.

When you're doing blanket fixes on "Terminators" like this thread is, you need to include all of them. The Custodes ones at least have sorta defined role but are just too expensive for what it is. Then we have the issue of Jetbikes also just being too good.

That's why I made the change I did and then say to adjust price as necessary with the WS/BS2+. It affects the following positively without scaling horribly:
1. Tactical Terminators gain a bit more offense with their Storm Bolters and gives them pseudo Relentless on the move with their Heavy Weapons, and makes those weapons even better if they stood still.
2. Assault Terminators hit more often with their Claw variants and Hammers are now hitting at a rate of average 8 Thunder Hammer hits instead of 5, while not making rerolls act absurd.
3. Deathwing Knights hit more often and can be more independent from Belial while not becoming absurd under him
4. Scarab Occult Terminators don't become even more durable and they gain the offense with range that they lack
5. This applies to Blightlords as well as Shroud, the latter being already way too expensive as is for their job
6. Chaos and Space Wolf Terminators get their Power Weapons hitting more often while not being absurd under a reroll aura
7. Paladins already have these basic changes you want, and one of the things they're lacking is still offense. This changes that
8. Cat and Tar armor Terminators aren't left out either

The only Terminators who need total rework are the Custodes ones (80+ points is just silly) and the troop Grey Knight dudes (who are basically at the same skill level as Strike Squads).
Of course you're right that there are several things in the game that need rework, I obviously can't put them all in the thread and lay out my thoughts like such.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
Plasma would still be good at killing 3 w terminators.

Not really. Paladins are noted as being mediocre for the most part because of taking twice the shots of D2 weapons alone. So imagine cheaper models gaining that all the sudden.