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Well we have our ceiling, custodes and our baseline, tactical marines. Gotta find a middle ground

Things I think is terminators damage output is kinda meh, so dare I suggest "Special issue storm bolters"? But then what about Sternguard since that's their new shtick.

Which frankly if I coulda done Sternguard I would've given them a rule to ignore the penalty of firing both combi profiles, which sounds boss instead of a spiffy boltgun.

Plus in melee I'm not sold on powerfists. GK units in my opinion are more reliable, or chaos terminators with axes or such which does not have a negative modifier

 fraser1191 wrote:
Well we have our ceiling, custodes and our baseline, tactical marines. Gotta find a middle ground

Things I think is terminators damage output is kinda meh, so dare I suggest "Special issue storm bolters"? But then what about Sternguard since that's their new shtick.

Which frankly if I coulda done Sternguard I would've given them a rule to ignore the penalty of firing both combi profiles, which sounds boss instead of a spiffy boltgun.

Plus in melee I'm not sold on powerfists. GK units in my opinion are more reliable, or chaos terminators with axes or such which does not have a negative modifier

That's why the WS/BS2+ and potentially extra attack is a good middle ground for the generic Terminators, as they're skilled as maybe Custodes but without the sheer strength and toughness, and then the rest have all their own special things after that.

Ooh, shooting both without penalty is cool and new and not too silly for characters. I guess it's not all that helpful for pistol characters or storm bolters.

I don't think fnp for all kills dg termies. They still get unique weapons and they're cataphracti for chaos, that's interesting too. Iron hands might get the short end.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:
Well we have our ceiling, custodes and our baseline, tactical marines. Gotta find a middle ground

Things I think is terminators damage output is kinda meh, so dare I suggest "Special issue storm bolters"? But then what about Sternguard since that's their new shtick.

Which frankly if I coulda done Sternguard I would've given them a rule to ignore the penalty of firing both combi profiles, which sounds boss instead of a spiffy boltgun.

Plus in melee I'm not sold on powerfists. GK units in my opinion are more reliable, or chaos terminators with axes or such which does not have a negative modifier

That's why the WS/BS2+ and potentially extra attack is a good middle ground for the generic Terminators, as they're skilled as maybe Custodes but without the sheer strength and toughness, and then the rest have all their own special things after that.

So running the numbers for vanilla terminators, they can kill 9 GEQ in a round of melee(with the entire unit having PFs, and the last guy is guaranteed to run) which, seems right all things considered for terminators.

Shooting they kill about 7, which just gives me the vision of a unit firing at one unit and charging another full unit carving their way in.

I think you're wining me over, this being the minimalist fix. Wouldn't be earth shattering, but would change things up for sure and as a blanket fix you don't have to worry about those other silly terminators.

So now I have questions.
If terminators get an additional attack, would the Sargeant gain one too or stay at 3?

And with plasma/2 wound weapons (disintegrator cannons come to mind) would you want a nerf on it by means of either a nerf to the gun or an additional wound on terminators?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Shas'O'Ceris wrote:
Ooh, shooting both without penalty is cool and new and not too silly for characters. I guess it's not all that helpful for pistol characters or storm bolters.

I think it would be a nice unique rule to Sternguard. I like the idea of them using combi weapons instead of boltguns, even if they get a spiffy one

 fraser1191 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:
Well we have our ceiling, custodes and our baseline, tactical marines. Gotta find a middle ground

Things I think is terminators damage output is kinda meh, so dare I suggest "Special issue storm bolters"? But then what about Sternguard since that's their new shtick.

Which frankly if I coulda done Sternguard I would've given them a rule to ignore the penalty of firing both combi profiles, which sounds boss instead of a spiffy boltgun.

Plus in melee I'm not sold on powerfists. GK units in my opinion are more reliable, or chaos terminators with axes or such which does not have a negative modifier

That's why the WS/BS2+ and potentially extra attack is a good middle ground for the generic Terminators, as they're skilled as maybe Custodes but without the sheer strength and toughness, and then the rest have all their own special things after that.

So running the numbers for vanilla terminators, they can kill 9 GEQ in a round of melee(with the entire unit having PFs, and the last guy is guaranteed to run) which, seems right all things considered for terminators.

Shooting they kill about 7, which just gives me the vision of a unit firing at one unit and charging another full unit carving their way in.

I think you're wining me over, this being the minimalist fix. Wouldn't be earth shattering, but would change things up for sure and as a blanket fix you don't have to worry about those other silly terminators.

So now I have questions.
If terminators get an additional attack, would the Sargeant gain one too or stay at 3?

And with plasma/2 wound weapons (disintegrator cannons come to mind) would you want a nerf on it by means of either a nerf to the gun or an additional wound on terminators?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Shas'O'Ceris wrote:
Ooh, shooting both without penalty is cool and new and not too silly for characters. I guess it's not all that helpful for pistol characters or storm bolters.

I think it would be a nice unique rule to Sternguard. I like the idea of them using combi weapons instead of boltguns, even if they get a spiffy one

I would be comfortable with the Sergeants getting an extra attack if they all do. One of those guys is gonna be next in line as a Captain at some point after all.

Don't forget that the WS/BS2+ fix also gives what a lot of people want (Relentless and 3+ to hit Power Fists) without ignoring how to fix every other Terminator too.

Don't play the 'they're gonna be a captain soon' card for this change too hard.

The ancient master who taught your Autarch everything they know about how to swing a sword (and often the Autarch's parents, too) are still WS3+ to this day, not 2+ like you'd expect.

The Crisis Suit leader who's getting promoted to Commander tomorrow along with the 2+ BS still has just a 4+ BS today - not even a 3+.

The "they're going to be better soon" argument doesn't get you too far. Hell, in some cases (Exarch vs Autarch), the more skilled model has a *lower* skill because herohammer.

That said, I do agree with the change.

Bharring wrote:
Don't play the 'they're gonna be a captain soon' card for this change too hard.

The ancient master who taught your Autarch everything they know about how to swing a sword (and often the Autarch's parents, too) are still WS3+ to this day, not 2+ like you'd expect.

The Crisis Suit leader who's getting promoted to Commander tomorrow along with the 2+ BS still has just a 4+ BS today - not even a 3+.

The "they're going to be better soon" argument doesn't get you too far. Hell, in some cases (Exarch vs Autarch), the more skilled model has a *lower* skill because herohammer.

That said, I do agree with the change.

It's how their ranking system works. Who is the guy that taught the Autarch to wield a Sword? Or the Crisis Suit how to shoot? Remember that I'm all for Crisis Suits getting BS3+ standard anyway (along with any reasonable price decrease), and it isn't like there's a MORE Elite Crisis Suit outside maybe the bodyguard ones (I don't know their ranking system). In that specific case I'd be all for them getting the BS3+ instead of the regular suit, but with all those systems that makes little sense.

BS/WS 2+ would actually be fine, but the game has changed a lot. The last time they had 2+ shooting was in 2nd edition. That was fine because it was based on the old BS system and they were BS5 (as were normal Veterans). This meant, sans modifiers they'd shoot on a 2+. However, characters would be up to BS10...meaning they'd remain shooting 2+ for a long time, until the penalties really stacked up.

I'd be fine with super strong characters having "Unerring Accuracy" or something, and keeping a 2+ regardless of modifiers. Would add a good bit to characters, but you'd have to restrict it to Chapter Masters, etc. Not the average Space Marine Captain, etc. The ability to differentiate more was obviously lost when they left the old BS chart (for better or for worse). It's one of the reasons you see so many auras and re-rolls, etc.

Give 1+ and 0+ WS and BS to people who deserve it.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Give 1+ and 0+ WS and BS to people who deserve it.

Which is all of them outside the Grey Knight troop variant.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Giving them WS/BS2+ doesn't cheapen Characters, it makes them less dependent on them. MAJOR difference.

If 10% of units in the game have WS/BS 2+ and it gets changed to 15% of units in the game having WS/BS 2+ then it is no longer as much of a premium stat as it was when it was 10%. It's not a terrible idea by any means, it just doesn't fix Terminator characters, you're just going to take a smash captain to back up your Terminators if they get buffed to be worthwhile, just like CSM took a jump Sorc instead of a Termi Sorc to back up their Termi bomb.

 vict0988 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Giving them WS/BS2+ doesn't cheapen Characters, it makes them less dependent on them. MAJOR difference.

If 10% of units in the game have WS/BS 2+ and it gets changed to 15% of units in the game having WS/BS 2+ then it is no longer as much of a premium stat as it was when it was 10%. It's not a terrible idea by any means, it just doesn't fix Terminator characters, you're just going to take a smash captain to back up your Terminators if they get buffed to be worthwhile, just like CSM took a jump Sorc instead of a Termi Sorc to back up their Termi bomb.

There's nothing wrong with the Terminator characters. In your specific example, it's the Jump Pack doing several things:
1. Offering the same Deep Strike
2. Cheaper
3. Gives Fly
4. Better movement
If you expect them to die pretty quick anyway, you want the quicker movement and cheapness.

Also the point of Terminators is that they really shouldn't be as dependent on the HQs as other units.

Doesn't terminator armour make them more survivable (is the entire point). It's not gunna increase your skill, just your survivability and maybe strength etc (Cause was for close quarters, etc a few guys taking a butt tonne of damage but surviving and pushing through with some combat ability).

Fluff aside, the change has to be to the armour not any weapons etc (So can carry across all factions SM and alt chapters, DW, GK, Inquisition and Chaos. You can't give them special storm bolters or anything cause conflicts to much with DW ammo etc).

Terminator armour atm gives them +1 W, 2+ arm, 5+invul and DS, to any SM chapter available (units/characters), characters (inquis) and Chaos (units/characters). I think an increase to WS/BS is totally against what they are suppose to be and makes it almost redundant for characters (and how many people take Terminator characters atm, unless playing fluffy or GK's etc. I can't comment to much on Chaos I don't play them in 40k).

If looking at fluff, maybe no passive negative to hit from weapons (like T.hammer/p.fist etc). But that doesn't make them more survivable (Their other big role). The upgrade has to make them points efficient and make them to their role/persona/character (I think that is a survivable aspect with some combat prowess, but survivable is the key, to hold out and still do damage).

Must be déjà vu I think have read this before in the last 19 pages about WS/BS etc.

EDIT:
I just started to play AoS and I think how they have their system (-2 or -3 AP is rare or is super good) is how 40k should model (though AOS is more combat over shooting). Maybe they will go towards that? This mech bay thing that Orks are getting sound so much like the Heardstone/Idoneth Ship/ Sylvannia woods etc maybe they are going towards that model eventually. EDIT: But that's another discussion, the above is pertinent to Termies.

Spectral Ceramite wrote:
Doesn't terminator armour make them more survivable (is the entire point). It's not gunna increase your skill, just your survivability and maybe strength etc (Cause was for close quarters, etc a few guys taking a butt tonne of damage but surviving and pushing through with some combat ability).

Fluff aside, the change has to be to the armour not any weapons etc (So can carry across all factions SM and alt chapters, DW, GK, Inquisition and Chaos. You can't give them special storm bolters or anything cause conflicts to much with DW ammo etc).

Terminator armour atm gives them +1 W, 2+ arm, 5+invul and DS, to any SM chapter available (units/characters), characters (inquis) and Chaos (units/characters). I think an increase to WS/BS is totally against what they are suppose to be and makes it almost redundant for characters (and how many people take Terminator characters atm, unless playing fluffy or GK's etc. I can't comment to much on Chaos I don't play them in 40k).

If looking at fluff, maybe no passive negative to hit from weapons (like T.hammer/p.fist etc). But that doesn't make them more survivable (Their other big role). The upgrade has to make them points efficient and make them to their role/persona/character (I think that is a survivable aspect with some combat prowess, but survivable is the key, to hold out and still do damage).

Must be déjà vu I think have read this before in the last 19 pages about WS/BS etc.

Chaos also does not field terminator lords/ sorcerers, etc. It is fairly save to assume that Terminators are used as a heavy shock infantry. Personally i'd like rules to represent that better, as in why does a terminator suffer from -1 modifyers when using a Assultcannon, Reaper autocannon etc after he teleported in? Why do they not get more heavy weapons choices? Why do they not do impact damage upon a successfull charge?

They feel "weightless" , (except maybee in a list that fields them, but there only in pts )

Spectral Ceramite wrote:
Doesn't terminator armour make them more survivable (is the entire point). It's not gunna increase your skill, just your survivability and maybe strength etc (Cause was for close quarters, etc a few guys taking a butt tonne of damage but surviving and pushing through with some combat ability).

Fluff aside, the change has to be to the armour not any weapons etc (So can carry across all factions SM and alt chapters, DW, GK, Inquisition and Chaos. You can't give them special storm bolters or anything cause conflicts to much with DW ammo etc).

Terminator armour atm gives them +1 W, 2+ arm, 5+invul and DS, to any SM chapter available (units/characters), characters (inquis) and Chaos (units/characters). I think an increase to WS/BS is totally against what they are suppose to be and makes it almost redundant for characters (and how many people take Terminator characters atm, unless playing fluffy or GK's etc. I can't comment to much on Chaos I don't play them in 40k).

If looking at fluff, maybe no passive negative to hit from weapons (like T.hammer/p.fist etc). But that doesn't make them more survivable (Their other big role). The upgrade has to make them points efficient and make them to their role/persona/character (I think that is a survivable aspect with some combat prowess, but survivable is the key, to hold out and still do damage).

Must be déjà vu I think have read this before in the last 19 pages about WS/BS etc.

EDIT:
I just started to play AoS and I think how they have their system (-2 or -3 AP is rare or is super good) is how 40k should model (though is combat over shooting). Maybe they will go towards that? This mech bay thing that Orks are getting sound so much like the Heardstone/Idoneth Ship/ Sylvannia woods etc maybe they are going towards that model eventually.

Terminator armour is supposed to be extremely difficult to produce hence limited in number and hence only issued to the best of the veterans of a chapter etc right now one of the problems with terminators(and vanguard and sternguard) is stat wise they are no better than tactical marines, they lack a meaningful difference from non vet marines.

Giving them boosted stats allows them to be more impacting on the game and being blits by MW, mass gunfired to death etc becomes less of an issue if you can use them to force your opponents to have to deal with them or pay a meaningful price. Right now they are slow and do little damage, they are irrelevant bar drops onto an objective but thats too many points just to clear 1 objective and hold it.

They either need to be a shock unit which hits hard and doesn't go down easy or they go down in points appropriately.
My issue with the second is at sone point really it's no longer 40k it's playing epic in 28mm scale.

They either need to be a shock unit which hits hard and doesn't go down easy or they go down in points appropriately. (Suppose to be quote from Ice_can)

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Giving them WS/BS2+ doesn't cheapen Characters, it makes them less dependent on them. MAJOR difference.

A Captain will increase the damage output of Terminators the same percentage (17%) regardless of whether or not they have WS/BS 2+, a Lieutenant will do the exact same 17%. Want me to explain the math in more detail?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 vict0988 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Giving them WS/BS2+ doesn't cheapen Characters, it makes them less dependent on them. MAJOR difference.

If 10% of units in the game have WS/BS 2+ and it gets changed to 15% of units in the game having WS/BS 2+ then it is no longer as much of a premium stat as it was when it was 10%. It's not a terrible idea by any means, it just doesn't fix Terminator characters, you're just going to take a smash captain to back up your Terminators if they get buffed to be worthwhile, just like CSM took a jump Sorc instead of a Termi Sorc to back up their Termi bomb.

There's nothing wrong with the Terminator characters. In your specific example, it's the Jump Pack doing several things:
1. Offering the same Deep Strike
2. Cheaper
3. Gives Fly
4. Better movement
If you expect them to die pretty quick anyway, you want the quicker movement and cheapness.

Also the point of Terminators is that they really shouldn't be as dependent on the HQs as other units.

How is there nothing wrong with Terminator chars? They're bad, nobody is taking them. They need a buff or every other Captain (more or less) needs a nerf to make them worthwhile.

 vict0988 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Giving them WS/BS2+ doesn't cheapen Characters, it makes them less dependent on them. MAJOR difference.

A Captain will increase the damage output of Terminators the same percentage (17%) regardless of whether or not they have WS/BS 2+, a Lieutenant will do the exact same 17%. Want me to explain the math in more detail?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 vict0988 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Giving them WS/BS2+ doesn't cheapen Characters, it makes them less dependent on them. MAJOR difference.

If 10% of units in the game have WS/BS 2+ and it gets changed to 15% of units in the game having WS/BS 2+ then it is no longer as much of a premium stat as it was when it was 10%. It's not a terrible idea by any means, it just doesn't fix Terminator characters, you're just going to take a smash captain to back up your Terminators if they get buffed to be worthwhile, just like CSM took a jump Sorc instead of a Termi Sorc to back up their Termi bomb.

There's nothing wrong with the Terminator characters. In your specific example, it's the Jump Pack doing several things:
1. Offering the same Deep Strike
2. Cheaper
3. Gives Fly
4. Better movement
If you expect them to die pretty quick anyway, you want the quicker movement and cheapness.

Also the point of Terminators is that they really shouldn't be as dependent on the HQs as other units.

How is there nothing wrong with Terminator chars? They're bad, nobody is taking them. They need a buff or every other Captain (more or less) needs a nerf to make them worthwhile.

Main problem is that SM and all of their units were intended to be the "baseline stats" while actually having sub-par statlines.

Lack of finer granularity is the issue as current SM statline cannot be increased without hitting the "captain" statline.

I still think the best fix is to give non-character TEQs +1 wound. It scales best across the board. Specific unit like Death Guard may need a point bump after some playtesting, but really that's it.

3W TEQs won't die to 1 Overcharging Plasma hit, but a single Plasma gun in RF range could still do the job. Best of both worlds

-

Plasma is hardly the issue when there's things like Disintegrators going around. I also showed earlier in the thread why an extra wound actually scales horribly.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I also showed earlier in the thread why an extra wound actually scales horribly.

And I vaguely remember disagreeing, but I don't want to bring that up again, so I'll leave it alone

-

 vict0988 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Giving them WS/BS2+ doesn't cheapen Characters, it makes them less dependent on them. MAJOR difference.

A Captain will increase the damage output of Terminators the same percentage (17%) regardless of whether or not they have WS/BS 2+, a Lieutenant will do the exact same 17%. Want me to explain the math in more detail?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 vict0988 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Giving them WS/BS2+ doesn't cheapen Characters, it makes them less dependent on them. MAJOR difference.

If 10% of units in the game have WS/BS 2+ and it gets changed to 15% of units in the game having WS/BS 2+ then it is no longer as much of a premium stat as it was when it was 10%. It's not a terrible idea by any means, it just doesn't fix Terminator characters, you're just going to take a smash captain to back up your Terminators if they get buffed to be worthwhile, just like CSM took a jump Sorc instead of a Termi Sorc to back up their Termi bomb.

There's nothing wrong with the Terminator characters. In your specific example, it's the Jump Pack doing several things:
1. Offering the same Deep Strike
2. Cheaper
3. Gives Fly
4. Better movement
If you expect them to die pretty quick anyway, you want the quicker movement and cheapness.

Also the point of Terminators is that they really shouldn't be as dependent on the HQs as other units.

How is there nothing wrong with Terminator chars? They're bad, nobody is taking them. They need a buff or every other Captain (more or less) needs a nerf to make them worthwhile.

You didn't actually show how it makes characters less important. So I have no idea what you want to prove.

Also Terminator Characters do get use, albeit in Special Character form (Chaos gets use from it, Calgar, , Draigo, etc), and then the occasional generic ones get used. That proves a problem with the generic entry than anything. Marine characters are heavily coated compared to other armies and you know that, all on top of the codex being priced like it'll have at minimum one of the rerolls available when we know that's not the case.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galef wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I also showed earlier in the thread why an extra wound actually scales horribly.

And I vaguely remember disagreeing, but I don't want to bring that up again, so I'll leave it alone

-

You can't leave it alone if you want to prove your fix to be the best. I already showed how wonky it is with anything rolling for damage, where the Lascannon only inflicts enough damage 2/3 of the time compared to 5/6 as a primary example.

The point about +1 WS/BS not being a proper attribute of *armor* is a solid one. Which is why I'd modify the suggestion to:
The Marine Vet statline is WS/BS2+
This would also improve Sternies, Vanguard Vets, and soforth.

I don't think terminator *armor* is bad. 2+/5++ is a nice piece of armor. It's units that *have* it that are bad. Are we more interested in fixing termie *armor* or termie *units*?

Also, I'm not clear on why Dissies being OP means making Termies more resilient to 2W weapons like overcharged Plas does nothing. Why would that impact Dissies less than Plas?

(Side note: "Who is the guy that taught the Autarch to wield a Sword?" - an Exarch, probably of the Banshee, Scorpion, or Avenger persuasion. And the Autarch never reaches the level of the Exarch - if they had, they would not be able to become an Autarch. But Exarchs are back to WS/BS 3+.)

Bharring wrote:
The point about +1 WS/BS not being a proper attribute of *armor* is a solid one. Which is why I'd modify the suggestion to:
The Marine Vet statline is WS/BS2+
This would also improve Sternies, Vanguard Vets, and soforth.

I don't think terminator *armor* is bad. 2+/5++ is a nice piece of armor. It's units that *have* it that are bad. Are we more interested in fixing termie *armor* or termie *units*?

Also, I'm not clear on why Dissies being OP means making Termies more resilient to 2W weapons like overcharged Plas does nothing. Why would that impact Dissies less than Plas?

(Side note: "Who is the guy that taught the Autarch to wield a Sword?" - an Exarch, probably of the Banshee, Scorpion, or Avenger persuasion. And the Autarch never reaches the level of the Exarch - if they had, they would not be able to become an Autarch. But Exarchs are back to WS/BS 3+.)

1. I'm not for a universal WS/BS2+ on Vets. What I'm suggesting is a combination of skill and the advanced armor. Vanguard getting WS2+ and Sterngaurd getting BS2+ basically gives them a defined role compared to Command Squads, and ensures they only pay for what they want to use. Anything about lowering the Special Issue Bolter cost or giving Vanguard AP-1 Chainswords is an afterthought for me.
2. Wouldn't the Autarch be more skilled anyway? Exarchs seem more obsessed with their tree anyway whereas the Autarch would have tried everything and became more skilled as a result. That said I'm not against Exarchs getting WS/BS2+ back, but I'm under the assumption they still had it, as the two main Eldar players I face play them like that.

The difference between a marine and a vet is +1 Ld and +1A
The difference between a Sternguard and a vanguard is wargear then in termie Armour vets just gain a 5++ and 2+ armour
Edit: the Armour also adds a wound, guess I forgot cause it's a non issue most of the time

Ld is a pretty moot Stat for basically everyone, and 2 attracts meant something when sweeping advance was a thing

I'm certainly in favor of VV being WS2+, Sterns being BS2+ and Termies being both.
Especially since the standard melee weapon for Termies is -1 to hit and the standard range weapon upgrades are either Heavy or auto-hit.

In lieu of giving TEQs +1W, being WS/BS2+ is the least that should happen

-

1. Shouldn't the ws/bs be the skill of the wearer? why would a Vet "forget" how to shoot a Boltgun just because they strapped on a jetpack today instead of walking tank armor suit?

2. "Wouldn't the Autarch be more skilled anyway? Exarchs seem more obsessed with their tree anyway whereas the Autarch would have tried everything and became more skilled as a result."
Why would a Banshee Exarch be less skilled at swinging a sword than a Banshee Aspect Warrior that went on to be a Swooping Hawk Aspect Warrior at swinging a sword? The Banshee Exarch may not know how to use the wings or the finer points of a Lasblaster the way an Autarch would (although there's no reason to assume no soul that's part of the Exarch ever was a Swooping Hawk). But they're going to know a whole lot more about anything swordplay-related than a "mere" Aspect Warrior. Side note on the side note: it's possible for an Exarch to have been an Autarch, but it is not possible for an Autarch to have been an Exarch.


The Termie armor also gives W2. But then, with a 2+, that 5++ doesn't do much this edition. Armor adding improved durability makes sense. Armor making you more skilled doesn't.

Bharring wrote:
1. Shouldn't the ws/bs be the skill of the wearer? why would a Vet "forget" how to shoot a Boltgun just because they strapped on a jetpack today instead of walking tank armor suit?.

Yes, which is why Termies should have it as they are the Chapter's best of the best
For VVs and Stern, having only one bumped but not the other is because they aren't specialized for both. Kinda "use it or lose it"

-

But can't any given Vet deploy as either a VV or Sternie depending on which squad he's currently in? Bob the Vet Marine could be a Sternie today, a VV tomorrow, and a Termie on Sunday (the last one only if he has the Crux Terminatus)?