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Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




U.k

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Andykp wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 AnomanderRake wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
txaggieof08 wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Nobody ran Deathwing competitively and had success. Sorry. I'm calling you on your crap.


Wow... Haven't been back on the board in a bit, had to catch back up.

You're wrong, and calling my a liar isn't going to change that. I don't appreciate the insult either.

By all means find all the times Deathwing did anything in any tournament then to prove me wrong. I'll be waiting for a reply.


...I don't know where to find 3e/4e-vintage tournament results.

Oh please

Terminators were at MOST mediocre in 4th thanks to double Assault Cannons with old Rending. Deathwing didn't change that, and it would be a shame for you to lie to yourself about that.


This is some classy debating going on right here. Makes me wonder why I bother looking on the forum sometimes.

What debate is there? Terminators weren't good in early editions, and pretending they were doesn't solve the problem because you want to be nostalgic about the all-or-nothing AP system.



That’s my point, one side is trying have a discussion while you just seem to shout “WRONG!” and “LIAR!” all the time. It’s tiring.
   
Made in it
Waaagh! Ork Warboss




Italy

 Alpharius wrote:
I think Terminators were 'good/OK' back in 2nd edition.

Well, at least Space Wolf versions were!

We'd need to go back to a proper AP system with termies saving on 2d6 in order for them to be good again!


Isn't a 3++ enough?

 
   
Made in us
Storm Trooper with Maglight





Fredericksburg, VA

 Blackie wrote:
 Alpharius wrote:
I think Terminators were 'good/OK' back in 2nd edition.

Well, at least Space Wolf versions were!

We'd need to go back to a proper AP system with termies saving on 2d6 in order for them to be good again!


Isn't a 3++ enough?


That's only a 2/3 chance of success. 3+ on 2D6 is 35/36 chance of success against a lasgun. Even against a -1 AP weapon you have a better than 90% chance to save with 3+ 2D6.
Terminators were very durable then, you really needed to direct anti-tank fire at them to reliably kill them, which meant your AT weapons weren't shooting at actual tanks...

Now they appear only marginally less squishy than regular Space Marines - which as many people agree, are still a bit too squishy.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 Kcalehc wrote:
 Blackie wrote:
 Alpharius wrote:
I think Terminators were 'good/OK' back in 2nd edition.

Well, at least Space Wolf versions were!

We'd need to go back to a proper AP system with termies saving on 2d6 in order for them to be good again!


Isn't a 3++ enough?


That's only a 2/3 chance of success. 3+ on 2D6 is 35/36 chance of success against a lasgun. Even against a -1 AP weapon you have a better than 90% chance to save with 3+ 2D6.
Terminators were very durable then, you really needed to direct anti-tank fire at them to reliably kill them, which meant your AT weapons weren't shooting at actual tanks...

Now they appear only marginally less squishy than regular Space Marines - which as many people agree, are still a bit too squishy.

They aren't marginally more durable. For the points they're way more durable, and this is the most durable Marines have been for several editions.

If you decided to look at the actual math rather than using those rose tinted glasses to decide, you'd know that.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Storm Trooper with Maglight





Fredericksburg, VA

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
They aren't marginally more durable. For the points they're way more durable, and this is the most durable Marines have been for several editions.

If you decided to look at the actual math rather than using those rose tinted glasses to decide, you'd know that.


Marines may be the most durable for several editions, but still not durable enough - which was the main gist of the point.

And I did do some maths, Terminators were more durable against small arms fire (lasguns/boltguns) in 2E by about 30-40% per point than they are now. Which I think many put forward as a problem - they die too easily to massed small arms than they should.

.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 Kcalehc wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
They aren't marginally more durable. For the points they're way more durable, and this is the most durable Marines have been for several editions.

If you decided to look at the actual math rather than using those rose tinted glasses to decide, you'd know that.


Marines may be the most durable for several editions, but still not durable enough - which was the main gist of the point.

And I did do some maths, Terminators were more durable against small arms fire (lasguns/boltguns) in 2E by about 30-40% per point than they are now. Which I think many put forward as a problem - they die too easily to massed small arms than they should.

.

It isn't Marines aren't durable enough, it is that every other army benefits from the new AP system way too much.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in it
Waaagh! Ork Warboss




Italy

2E was like 25 years ago, it's dishonest to compare that edition to this one. Compare 5th or 7th edition termies with the new ones. Now you get 2W and 3++ for dirt cheap. Even without the shield you'll get a save against many weapons that used to bypass their armor completely.

Orks meganobz cost 35 points with the equivalent of stormbolter and power fist. They have 3W, 3A at S10 instead of 2 at S8 but also BS5+, no deepstrike, and no chance to get an invuln. No ork player says they're too squishy despite being actually less durable than terminators with shields.

Termies are already fine, they just need synergies to work and some SM armies simply don't have those combos.

 
   
Made in se
Ferocious Black Templar Castellan






Sweden

No Ork player says that Meganobz are too squishy because they have an additional wound compared to Terminators and because, despite what you assert, they can Deep Strike. Just not innately. I promise you that if you could have Terminators that had a +1 to charge distance and could reroll one or both dice without having to pay a CP you'd see more Terminators too.

"Reroll failed charges" is my Chapter Tactics. "Reroll failed charges, except better because feth you" is just an innate ability of Orks in general. Of course Meganobz aren't complained about, they've got a bunch of special rules that you conveniently left out, and are cheaper to boot.

For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. 
   
Made in it
Waaagh! Ork Warboss




Italy

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
No Ork player says that Meganobz are too squishy because they have an additional wound compared to Terminators and because, despite what you assert, they can Deep Strike. Just not innately. I promise you that if you could have Terminators that had a +1 to charge distance and could reroll one or both dice without having to pay a CP you'd see more Terminators too.

"Reroll failed charges" is my Chapter Tactics. "Reroll failed charges, except better because feth you" is just an innate ability of Orks in general. Of course Meganobz aren't complained about, they've got a bunch of special rules that you conveniently left out, and are cheaper to boot.


They don't have deepstrike as a rule in their profile, you must use a stratagem to give them that, but at this point basically every army in the game can deep strike infantries using CPs. Deepstriking meganobz costs 2 CPs, for an army that heavily relies on burning CPs pretty much everywhere and everytime is something that should be taken into account. +1W but also no invuln which makes termies way more resilient than them against anything but anti infantry weapons, which should target something else in a balanced list. Things like plasmas, lascannons, thunder hammer melt meganobz with no effort while a 3++ termy can tank them very well.

The +1 charge is only for evil sunz though, and meganobz are also played using other kulturs. SM also have characters' buffing auras that are easier to field. With my SW I can rely on the full re-rolls to hit rolls and the 1s to wound, +1A thanks to wulfen or character with wulfen stone, +1A thanks to Arjac (which also gives the re-roll wound of 1s). Orks can't have re-rolls, just +1A if you bring the super expensive (and goffs only) ghaz or a weirdboy (which have better power to cast). The banner nob gives +1 to hit but it's 77 points, not an HQ so no useful to unlock detachments, and very hard to give his aura to meganobz if they deepstrike. SW have +1 to hit for free pretty much everytime.

I actually expect meganobz to become cheaper by the next round of FAQs since pks should drop to 9pts like power fists.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/04 14:37:30


 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




 Alpharius wrote:
I think Terminators were 'good/OK' back in 2nd edition.

Well, at least Space Wolf versions were!

We'd need to go back to a proper AP system with termies saving on 2d6 in order for them to be good again!


Not really. -2 and -3 spam was everywhere. Plus pulsa rockit spam.
   
Made in gb
Mighty Vampire Count






UK

Still say drop the difference Tac and Asault Terminator and allow mix and match for all weapon systems.


I AM A MARINE PLAYER

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www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/528517.page

A Bloody Road - my Warhammer Fantasy Fiction 
   
Made in se
Ferocious Black Templar Castellan






Sweden

 Blackie wrote:
 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
No Ork player says that Meganobz are too squishy because they have an additional wound compared to Terminators and because, despite what you assert, they can Deep Strike. Just not innately. I promise you that if you could have Terminators that had a +1 to charge distance and could reroll one or both dice without having to pay a CP you'd see more Terminators too.

"Reroll failed charges" is my Chapter Tactics. "Reroll failed charges, except better because feth you" is just an innate ability of Orks in general. Of course Meganobz aren't complained about, they've got a bunch of special rules that you conveniently left out, and are cheaper to boot.


They don't have deepstrike as a rule in their profile, you must use a stratagem to give them that, but at this point basically every army in the game can deep strike infantries using CPs. Deepstriking meganobz costs 2 CPs, for an army that heavily relies on burning CPs pretty much everywhere and everytime is something that should be taken into account. +1W but also no invuln which makes termies way more resilient than them against anything but anti infantry weapons, which should target something else in a balanced list. Things like plasmas, lascannons, thunder hammer melt meganobz with no effort while a 3++ termy can tank them very well.

The +1 charge is only for evil sunz though, and meganobz are also played using other kulturs. SM also have characters' buffing auras that are easier to field. With my SW I can rely on the full re-rolls to hit rolls and the 1s to wound, +1A thanks to wulfen or character with wulfen stone, +1A thanks to Arjac (which also gives the re-roll wound of 1s). Orks can't have re-rolls, just +1A if you bring the super expensive (and goffs only) ghaz or a weirdboy (which have better power to cast). The banner nob gives +1 to hit but it's 77 points, not an HQ so no useful to unlock detachments, and very hard to give his aura to meganobz if they deepstrike. SW have +1 to hit for free pretty much everytime.

I actually expect meganobz to become cheaper by the next round of FAQs since pks should drop to 9pts like power fists.


All those rerolls are completely pointless if you can't get into combat in the first place. Meganobz are far superior because they can reliably charge from Deep Strike, whether that is through a Stratagem or Da Jump. Going straight into combat from Deep Strike also provides for a far more potent survivability buff than a 3++.

For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 Mr Morden wrote:
Still say drop the difference Tac and Asault Terminator and allow mix and match for all weapon systems.


This would be something I want proposed as well. Two different entries is completely silly.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Steadfast Ultramarine Sergeant







"What debate is there? Terminators weren't good in early editions, and pretending they were doesn't solve the problem because you want to be nostalgic about the all-or-nothing AP system."

Early editions... 1,2,3,4...

They sucked in 7th and they currently suck in 8th.

Were they good in 5th and 6th?
   
Made in us
Legendary Master of the Chapter





Chicago, Illinois

 fraser1191 wrote:

"What debate is there? Terminators weren't good in early editions, and pretending they were doesn't solve the problem because you want to be nostalgic about the all-or-nothing AP system."

Early editions... 1,2,3,4...

They sucked in 7th and they currently suck in 8th.

Were they good in 5th and 6th?


5th they had their uses, but in deathwing they shined brightly.

While they competed against sternguard, terminators still could deal a lot of damage and were a lot bang for their buck now.... I don't know they just seem lack luster with so much firepower everywhere.

From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war. 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




Terminators weren't really good in 5th. They were awful in 3rd and very marginal at best in 2nd.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 fraser1191 wrote:

"What debate is there? Terminators weren't good in early editions, and pretending they were doesn't solve the problem because you want to be nostalgic about the all-or-nothing AP system."

Early editions... 1,2,3,4...

They sucked in 7th and they currently suck in 8th.

Were they good in 5th and 6th?

Yeah they were only mediocre in 4th because of Assault Cannon saturation. Anything else is bad, including 5th and 6th.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Asherian Command wrote:
 fraser1191 wrote:

"What debate is there? Terminators weren't good in early editions, and pretending they were doesn't solve the problem because you want to be nostalgic about the all-or-nothing AP system."

Early editions... 1,2,3,4...

They sucked in 7th and they currently suck in 8th.

Were they good in 5th and 6th?


5th they had their uses, but in deathwing they shined brightly.

While they competed against sternguard, terminators still could deal a lot of damage and were a lot bang for their buck now.... I don't know they just seem lack luster with so much firepower everywhere.

Deathwing was bad in 5th too. Stop trying to be a revisionary of how it was.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/04 23:14:38


CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Legendary Master of the Chapter





Chicago, Illinois

Deathwing was bad in 5th too. Stop trying to be a revisionary of how it was.


Then who was the good termies in 5th or where there no good termies in 5th?

From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war. 
   
Made in ca
Gargantuan Gargant






I thought the only good termies were from Grey Knights because Paladins were too easy to abuse the wound allocation rules at the time, plus with Draigo making them troops and i would say GK in general were broken before 6th.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 Grimskul wrote:
I thought the only good termies were from Grey Knights because Paladins were too easy to abuse the wound allocation rules at the time, plus with Draigo making them troops and i would say GK in general were broken before 6th.

That about sums it up to be honest. Anything with 2 wounds was good.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in it
Waaagh! Ork Warboss




Italy

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:


All those rerolls are completely pointless if you can't get into combat in the first place. Meganobz are far superior because they can reliably charge from Deep Strike, whether that is through a Stratagem or Da Jump. Going straight into combat from Deep Strike also provides for a far more potent survivability buff than a 3++.


Again, only evil sunz has +1 to charge.

And deepstriking with a melee anti tank unit is always a trap against a competitive army since everyone has screening units that must be dealt with. Unfortunately orks are also terrible in clearing screens outside combat. With SW I have the flyer, long fangs, ass cannons from the razorbacks, WG on bikes or jump packs with storm bolters... orks basically just have the dakkajet to do that job.

Meganobz aren't better than termies because of their stats or combos, they perform better because orks are an assault oriented army so they will be backed up by other choppy units. In many SM armies those termies will be the only dudes that worth something in melee. Even meganobz would be terrible in a full shooting ork list.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/05 07:59:56


 
   
Made in se
Ferocious Black Templar Castellan






Sweden

 Blackie wrote:
 AlmightyWalrus wrote:


All those rerolls are completely pointless if you can't get into combat in the first place. Meganobz are far superior because they can reliably charge from Deep Strike, whether that is through a Stratagem or Da Jump. Going straight into combat from Deep Strike also provides for a far more potent survivability buff than a 3++.


Again, only evil sunz has +1 to charge.


But every Ork has "Black Templars +1". Base Meganobz, without any Klan, are better than Terminators with any Chapter Tactic applied to them.

For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. 
   
Made in ca
Gargantuan Gargant






 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
 Blackie wrote:
 AlmightyWalrus wrote:


All those rerolls are completely pointless if you can't get into combat in the first place. Meganobz are far superior because they can reliably charge from Deep Strike, whether that is through a Stratagem or Da Jump. Going straight into combat from Deep Strike also provides for a far more potent survivability buff than a 3++.


Again, only evil sunz has +1 to charge.


But every Ork has "Black Templars +1". Base Meganobz, without any Klan, are better than Terminators with any Chapter Tactic applied to them.


For vanilla marines, maybe. +1 to wound or to hit for either SW or BA Termies are closer though if we discount Klan kultures. I feel your pain though as a BT enthusiast. Every time I see an army and get hyped up from their looks or fluff like Helsreach, I see their rules and then weep. Getting into combat means jack all if you can't do any meaningful damage when you get there. It hurts my soul to see min max crusader squads with las/plas or combi-plas/plas. Even their weird Vigilus Detachment does little for them, other than making a good killy HQ unit which the Emp's champion kinda already does. I guess at least we got the Holy Orb back? :(
   
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.







Martel732 wrote:
 Alpharius wrote:
I think Terminators were 'good/OK' back in 2nd edition.

Well, at least Space Wolf versions were!

We'd need to go back to a proper AP system with termies saving on 2d6 in order for them to be good again!


Not really. -2 and -3 spam was everywhere. Plus pulsa rockit spam.


Pulsa spam maybe, but making a 5 or a 6 or 2d6 was...remarkably easy!

Anyway, this many pages in, are we closing in on a way to make Terminators worthwhile?
   
Made in se
Ferocious Black Templar Castellan






Sweden

 Grimskul wrote:
 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
 Blackie wrote:
 AlmightyWalrus wrote:


All those rerolls are completely pointless if you can't get into combat in the first place. Meganobz are far superior because they can reliably charge from Deep Strike, whether that is through a Stratagem or Da Jump. Going straight into combat from Deep Strike also provides for a far more potent survivability buff than a 3++.


Again, only evil sunz has +1 to charge.


But every Ork has "Black Templars +1". Base Meganobz, without any Klan, are better than Terminators with any Chapter Tactic applied to them.


For vanilla marines, maybe. +1 to wound or to hit for either SW or BA Termies are closer though if we discount Klan kultures.


No, +1 to wound or to hit is the Kulture equivalent. Add in that and the Meganobz can get the far-superior +1 to move/advance/charge. The equivalent to the "Black Templars +1" would be And They Shall Know No Fear which... yeah...

For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. 
   
Made in it
Waaagh! Ork Warboss




Italy

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
 Blackie wrote:
 AlmightyWalrus wrote:


All those rerolls are completely pointless if you can't get into combat in the first place. Meganobz are far superior because they can reliably charge from Deep Strike, whether that is through a Stratagem or Da Jump. Going straight into combat from Deep Strike also provides for a far more potent survivability buff than a 3++.


Again, only evil sunz has +1 to charge.


But every Ork has "Black Templars +1". Base Meganobz, without any Klan, are better than Terminators with any Chapter Tactic applied to them.


And black templars, like other SM have lots of other things that are better compared to orks, like shooting options, BS, armours and invulns availability.

5 termies with PF and SS cost basically like 5 meganobz, 170 vs 175 points. Despite the fact that meganobz are my favorite models in the entire 40k catalogue I play more with my SW termies than meganobz. SW termies are usually more effective and more resilient, they have all the buffs with no real drawbacks as you'll probably want wulfen and buffing characters anyway and come with a built in +1 to hit. At the end of the day SW dudes usually have 21 S8 AP-3 DD3 attacks hitting on 3s with re-rolls, meganobz have 15 S10 AP-3 DD3 attacks hitting on 4s with no re-rolls.

Meganobz also suffer from the current competitive meta where there's anti tank and anti heavy infantries everywhere and they simply melt against things like dissies or lascannons. They can tank low S shots better than terminators, sure, but with orks there are always better targets than meganobz for those weapons. In fact, as I said, I'm expecting meganobz to go down in points next round of FAQs.

Fixing terminators is actually easy, they just need to be played like SW ones. Full melee and with auras that improve them without being a pure tax. Many SM chapters don't have effective close combat synergies but lots of other shooting options available, so termies aren't a good choice in both loadouts, that's why they seem to be trash. People advocate for better AP on bolters, more W on models, price reductions.... IMHO what SM reallly need is more effective synergies: buffing auras, stratagems, traits, psychic powers....

 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
.







 Alpharius wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
 Alpharius wrote:
I think Terminators were 'good/OK' back in 2nd edition.

Well, at least Space Wolf versions were!

We'd need to go back to a proper AP system with termies saving on 2d6 in order for them to be good again!


Not really. -2 and -3 spam was everywhere. Plus pulsa rockit spam.


Pulsa spam maybe, but making a 5 or a 6 or 2d6 was...remarkably easy!

Anyway, this many pages in, are we closing in on a way to make Terminators worthwhile?


Anyone?

Is the answer to not worry about making them more durable, but rather make them more effective via lower points and/or the ability to carry more of the more effective weaponry?
   
Made in us
Steadfast Ultramarine Sergeant






I'm gonna back Slayers BS/WS upgrade fix

I can't remember if he also said to give them an additional attack as well but I am, only because I think marines should have 2 attacks base.
   
Made in us
Legendary Master of the Chapter





Chicago, Illinois

Anyway, this many pages in, are we closing in on a way to make Terminators worthwhile?


Sorta kind of. I am not really sure honestly, but i think we need a poster here to summarize the big major points made?

From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war. 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 fraser1191 wrote:
I'm gonna back Slayers BS/WS upgrade fix

I can't remember if he also said to give them an additional attack as well but I am, only because I think marines should have 2 attacks base.

I'm for giving them an extra attack.

As is, this is the most durable they've been since perhaps 2nd. The issue is their offense, and those two minor fixes actually do a lot while not being terribly hard to implement.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
 
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