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To be fair, an entire squad of Guardsmen in Rapid Fire range with FRFSRF shooting at Terminators do an average of just over 1 wound. (36 shots to the wound, and they get 37.)

True. It was an example to explain the superiority among mid-range units. Guardsmen just get used all the time because reasons.

Played a few test games with a couple of friends over the weekend. We home brewed the following:

Terminator Armor:

A model wearing Terminator Armor never suffers the -1 to hit penalty in close combat when using unwieldy weapons.

Reduce the damage of incoming ranged attacks by 1 to a minimum of 1. If the strength of the weapon is less than the toughness of the model, re-roll armor saves of 1 in addition.

We noticed a sizable increase in the use-ability of the unit after applying these home-brew rules.

 JNAProductions wrote:


That's not how it works.Storm Bolters are Rapid Fire 2, so you get a max of 4 shots per Terminator equipped with one.

It's just you now get the 4 shots past 12".

Ah, it was late when I first read it last night, I now see how it works as an extension to when you get the double attacks.

Ok so that does add a bit more punch at longer ranges for termies but it doesn't help them any up close advancing to charge.

I see it more as:
DS close to what you want to punch with your fists. You can now shoot your incidental fire at anything within 24" instead of 12". Because what you want to punch with their fists is usually not what you want the incidental fire to go into.

Maybe I just run a lot of stuff that dies fast to Boltguns. I don't see it as meta-breaking, but I do see it help Termies be less-bad.

Nothing dies fast bolt guns. Some things die less slowly, though.

Bharring wrote:
I see it more as:
DS close to what you want to punch with your fists. You can now shoot your incidental fire at anything within 24" instead of 12". Because what you want to punch with their fists is usually not what you want the incidental fire to go into.

Maybe I just run a lot of stuff that dies fast to Boltguns. I don't see it as meta-breaking, but I do see it help Termies be less-bad.

9" charge is still bad and can't be relied on IMO.

The point isn't to charge on the turn you come down. The point is that you have a somewhat durable threat that needs to be removed in one turn. Not arguing that they're good enough to do that job well, just slightly better than before (because of additional incidental fire against secondary targets).

"Nothing dies fast bolt guns. Some things die less slowly, though."
Swooping Hawks. Dire Avengers. Fire Dragons. Warp Spiders. Dark Reapers. Banshees. Striking Scorpions. Harlequins. Guardian Defenders. Shadow Spectres.

Lots of things die fast to boltguns. You're just not used to facing them.

Bharring wrote:
The point isn't to charge on the turn you come down. The point is that you have a somewhat durable threat that needs to be removed in one turn. Not arguing that they're good enough to do that job well, just slightly better than before (because of additional incidental fire against secondary targets).

"Nothing dies fast bolt guns. Some things die less slowly, though."
Swooping Hawks. Dire Avengers. Fire Dragons. Warp Spiders. Dark Reapers. Banshees. Striking Scorpions. Harlequins. Guardian Defenders. Shadow Spectres.

Lots of things die fast to boltguns. You're just not used to facing them.

Because those units with the exception of Harlequins have been used maybe 4 times collectively across all of 8th edition. The reason you're "not used to facing them" is because NOBODY USES THEM.

 skchsan wrote:

Bharring wrote:
I see it more as:
DS close to what you want to punch with your fists. You can now shoot your incidental fire at anything within 24" instead of 12". Because what you want to punch with their fists is usually not what you want the incidental fire to go into.

Maybe I just run a lot of stuff that dies fast to Boltguns. I don't see it as meta-breaking, but I do see it help Termies be less-bad.

9" charge is still bad and can't be relied on IMO.

In a gimmick list, you would run them as Black Templars or anything else as Minotaurs with Asterion's effect bubble.

Honestly i am surprised we can't take terminators all with power swords + storm bolters.

Honestly the equipment that termies use should be halved in costs.

A squad of 5 termies with heavy weapons should be costed at around 140 - 150pts. not 170+.

Give them strategems like the proposed "Halve incoming damage" or abilities that benefit their deep strike. There are many things that can be done to improve terminators and stats are not the only way.

"Because those units with the exception of Harlequins have been used maybe 4 times collectively across all of 8th edition. "
With the exception of Spectres, I've used them more than 4 times *myself*. They aren't used often, sure. But they *do* exist. And there are many more like them.

I chose that list, specifically, because most of those are usually in my lists. There are units out there that fear Boltguns, but I agree that they're not meta favorites.

Bharring wrote:
"Because those units with the exception of Harlequins have been used maybe 4 times collectively across all of 8th edition. "
With the exception of Spectres, I've used them more than 4 times *myself*. They aren't used often, sure. But they *do* exist. And there are many more like them.

I chose that list, specifically, because most of those are usually in my lists. There are units out there that fear Boltguns, but I agree that they're not meta favorites.

Aren't Spectres one of those units with that innate -1 to hit them? Even at their cost I wouldn't really say they're that fearful.

Let me get this straight:
13ppm T4 3+: dies in droves to S3
28ppm T3 3+: Unkillable with S4 if it has -1 to hit

Unless you're BS6+, you're full of it. It's just a doublestandard.

Bharring wrote:
Let me get this straight:
13ppm T4 3+: dies in droves to S3
28ppm T3 3+: Unkillable with S4 if it has -1 to hit

Unless you're BS6+, you're full of it. It's just a doublestandard.

I'm not the person complaining about Marine durability you DO realize, right?

Bharring wrote:
The point isn't to charge on the turn you come down. The point is that you have a somewhat durable threat that needs to be removed in one turn. Not arguing that they're good enough to do that job well, just slightly better than before (because of additional incidental fire against secondary targets).

"Nothing dies fast bolt guns. Some things die less slowly, though."
Swooping Hawks. Dire Avengers. Fire Dragons. Warp Spiders. Dark Reapers. Banshees. Striking Scorpions. Harlequins. Guardian Defenders. Shadow Spectres.

Lots of things die fast to boltguns. You're just not used to facing them.

They still die slowly. I'm used to being dead completely around turn 4.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:
Let me get this straight:
13ppm T4 3+: dies in droves to S3
28ppm T3 3+: Unkillable with S4 if it has -1 to hit

Unless you're BS6+, you're full of it. It's just a doublestandard.

How do the boltguns live vs Eldar to begin with? That's the real question.

Wait what dire avengers die quickly to bolt guns? Wait what? they have a +4 save.

Warp Spiders and Fire Dragons, Striking Scorpions have a +3 save

If you have a unit of warp spiders by themselves you've honestly screwed up somewhere. A dire avenger squad not having a warlock nearby casting conceal and or invig is that players fault. Dire Avengers will outshoot the marines very easily.

Swooping hawks will not be locked down by a tactical squad.

Guardian Defenders there are a lot of them they are supposed to die.

Honestly to add to this thread again. The only way we can truly improve terminators now (especially with the new beta rule) is to give them a stratagem of some kind that allows them to ignore specific deep strike rules and charge the same turn they arrive. Or maybe they get to ignore in their combat phase -1 and gain an additional attack.

Or maybe you get a 'Veterans of the First Company' which gives +1 attack and +1 bs and ws up to three units that cost up to 3cp (1 cp each). Thus giving you an incentive to get more CP with marines.

There is a bunch you can do, and I think with these new beta rules, some point cost reduction (heavy flamer, assault cannon, missile launcher), some more weapon options (like allowing all terminators to take power swords, storm shields, etc) would go a long way in making terminators worthwhile along with good stratagems.

Give Terminators a "roll 3D6 for charge distance" stratagem. Bloodletters can do it, with +1 to charge range to boot. Orks can do a similar thing, with 'Ere We Go and +1 to charge distance, but without the 3D6.

Bharring wrote:
Let me get this straight:
13ppm T4 3+: dies in droves to S3
28ppm T3 3+: Unkillable with S4 if it has -1 to hit

Unless you're BS6+, you're full of it. It's just a doublestandard.

The issue is it's never just-1 to hit it's-1 for spectrrs, -1 alitoc
That marinrs on 5+, and the real threat of guardsmen on 6's (can be made 7+if needed) that makes a big difference it's not so much that thier more resilient directly, but they can out fox the meta infantry choice.

So let me get this straight:
S3 kills a whole 13*(1/2 hit)(1/3 wound)(1/3 failed armor save)
or 0.722 points/shot, so Marines die in droves to Lasguns.

S4 only kills 28*(1/3 hit)(2/3 wound)(1/3 failed armor save) or 2.1 points/shot, so Boltguns aren't a threat to Spectres?

And that's including a Chapter Tactic on Spectres but not Marines.

That's just bad math.

I don't disagree that Spectres are better than Marines for a host of other reasons, but Boltguns are a threat to them.

"Wait what dire avengers die quickly to bolt guns? Wait what? they have a +4 save."
They die exactly *twice* as fast to Boltguns as Marines.

"Warp Spiders and Fire Dragons, Striking Scorpions have a +3 save"
They're still dying faster per model than Marines. Warp Spiders and Fire Dragons cost a lot more than Marines, too. Striking Scorpions, though, fair point.

"A dire avenger squad not having a warlock nearby casting conceal and or invig is that players fault."
You get one Conceal per turn. Using it on Dire Avengers is a waste. It still doesn't make them very durable. Depending on what you mean by Invig (Fortune? Protect?), likely the same deal. Having both makes them not die too quickly to Boltguns, but you've just spent two powers to up 5 GEQs to basically MEQ survivability. If DAs are really the most in need of either, the CWE player has already lost. A Libby casting Smite is more impactful than this.

"Swooping hawks will not be locked down by a tactical squad."
True. But they'll be outshot. They now lose the firefight at 24" vs basic Tac Marines.

"Dire Avengers will outshoot the marines very easily."
Not at all. They're actually very evenly matched.
11 Tacs shooting DAs: 11x2x(2/3)(2/3)(1/2) = 4.88.. dead DAs, or 53.68 points
13 DAs shooting Tacs: 13x2x(2/3)[(1/3)(1/3)+(1/6)(5/6)] = 4.33 dead Marines, or 56.33 points

My point in all this isn't that Marines are good, or that CWE (or even the units listed) are bad; it's that the BoltGun *is* a threat to certain units. So try to use it as that.

My point, specific to this thread, is that the Beta Rule gives your Termies more options. You can drop 9" away from waht you want to charge next turn, or where you want to deny the enemy, but still shoot that squishy target behind them - any target within 24" at full efficiency.

Again, I'm not saying that makes Termies good. I'm saying that it makes Termies slightly less bad, as you can better leverage their kit now. Because, most of the time, what you want to put your Termies in front of isn't what you want their shots going into.

You need more context around you maths as you have used 1 bolter shots and 1 lasgun shots apparently instead of the 3.25 you get for the same points.
Not to mention the bonus of orders?

It also didn't factor in Marine CTs (-1-to-hit or 6+ FnP both change the numbers), or Marine reroll-hits/reroll-wounds. Or the doubletap-at-24-under-conditions. But it's always Alaitoc outside 12" for some reason. There's a lot not factored in.

Marines are getting 32% return on killing Spectres with Boltguns. In conditions favorable to the Spectres. That's a fairly good return.

*Reapers* get lower returns shooting *Marines*, despite being OP and glass cannons.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Give Terminators a "roll 3D6 for charge distance" stratagem. Bloodletters can do it, with +1 to charge range to boot. Orks can do a similar thing, with 'Ere We Go and +1 to charge distance, but without the 3D6.

They could. Overall marines just need better stratagems (mentioned it in another thread). While also giving marines a bonus to being taken as a mono army. Infact every army should get bonuses for being a mono army. Similar to how in 4th you could take a rule that barred you from taking allies and what you would do is get a whole army wide ability from the chapter tactics in exchange. (very helpful) unforunately we don't have stratagems useful to terminators, or any other unit that isn't primaris. Hell Dreadnoughts and land raiders have none to speak of.

Bharring wrote:
It also didn't factor in Marine CTs (-1-to-hit or 6+ FnP both change the numbers), or Marine reroll-hits/reroll-wounds. Or the doubletap-at-24-under-conditions. But it's always Alaitoc outside 12" for some reason. There's a lot not factored in.

Marines are getting 32% return on killing Spectres with Boltguns. In conditions favorable to the Spectres. That's a fairly good return.

*Reapers* get lower returns shooting *Marines*, despite being OP and glass cannons.

That's because the preferred target of Reapers isn't W1 models and you know that.

I'm not saying Eldar infantry don't die to Bolters. I'm simply saying that to "fear" them is probably the most ludicrous thing I've ever read in a long time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Give Terminators a "roll 3D6 for charge distance" stratagem. Bloodletters can do it, with +1 to charge range to boot. Orks can do a similar thing, with 'Ere We Go and +1 to charge distance, but without the 3D6.

Yeah but ththe difference a lot of the units that get those benefits aren't in significantly bulky armor that actually prohibits movement a lot. It kinda makes sense for Jump Packs and I'm surprised Bikers didn't get it. To suggest it on Terminators is along the silliness of them doing back flips which I KNOW some of you criticized.

As I said, they die less slowly. But still slowly.

Now run math vs fire warriors or guardsmen, not overcosted eldar infantry. Minus reapers, who are still undercosted.

I wouldn't call Harlies, Scorpions, or DAs overcosted. I'd call them "units that aren't horde".

Back on point, the problem with "roll 3d6" on Termies, is that an easy charge might break them in the *other* direction. In theory, their threat is that if they aren't wiped in one round after DS, they charge whatever they're aiming for. They are relatively slow and durable, with one hell of a punch. A "roll 3d6" stratagem turns them into a fast-hitting threat. That shouldn't be their role.

Scorpions are definitely overcosted for the role they were now given, especially when they don't have their regular Infiltrate like they used to and got a generic Deep Strike. That alone would be an incredible fix for them.

Termies still have pretty expensive gear to boot (power fists). The biggest problem right now is that termies never see combat cause well combat this edition sucks making them less useful.

A great point by point is comparing Aggressors to Terminators

Terminators' equipment is 23pts pr and has 11pts in total for weapons

While Aggressors being 21pts per and their gear is 14pts for weapons.

For 2 less points Aggressors have +1 toughness -1 save no invulnerable save with assault 6, and d6 s4 attacks compared to a terminators rapid fire 4, s4, (longer range but it gets a bit more painful for terminators in terms of shooting).

So an aggressor is shooting 9 shots, compared to a termies 4 shots, both have the exact same melee capabilities. 5 extra shots is quite a bit, but not only that but they are not mandated to take more than 3 aggressors. so they at most would be 111 pts compared to a Tartaros 165pts for 5 Terminators.

in total you would get 20 (23 if you use Tartaros) shots from the terminator squad, while the aggressors would get on the average 27 shots, if they didn't move the last turn they get 54 shots at S4.

Aggressors don't outpace terminators but they are comparable in terms of equipment costs, both need their costs to be brought down, especially as is, close combat is too expensive and does not actually contribute much unless they change the rules for this edition.

But for this edition the best thing to do is to give terminators an option to take all power swords (4pts) or chain axes (0). This would significantly decrease the cost of all terminators, (From 34pts to just 25pts or 29pts). Currently Wolf Guard can do this similarly with having stormshields + storm bolters for only 27pts and have a +3 invulnerable save. And maybe a stratagem that allows them to double their rapid fire for 1 turn.

Termies are a slow CC unit, they pay too much for CC to use them solely as a shooting unit.

Look at Incubi and Wraithblades - Termies aren't the only such unit to have this problem.

Bharring wrote:
Termies are a slow CC unit, they pay too much for CC to use them solely as a shooting unit.

Look at Incubi and Wraithblades - Termies aren't the only such unit to have this problem.

Oh i agree. My poor wraithblades and scorpions are down in the dumps of forgotten land because CC is underwhelming.