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I've used them with objective secured thanks to the new crimson fists warlord trait, and honestly it instantly makes them worth their points. A cataphractii squad that can hold an objective as if they were troops is almost impossible to move.

Bharring wrote:
Termies are a slow CC unit, they pay too much for CC to use them solely as a shooting unit.

Look at Incubi and Wraithblades - Termies aren't the only such unit to have this problem.

Incubi definitely suffer the most as they don't even get Kabal effects as far as I'm aware. Not that ANY of them help them out of course, but still.

Give them a third wound.

Bharring wrote:
It also didn't factor in Marine CTs (-1-to-hit or 6+ FnP both change the numbers), or Marine reroll-hits/reroll-wounds. Or the doubletap-at-24-under-conditions. But it's always Alaitoc outside 12" for some reason. There's a lot not factored in.

Marines are getting 32% return on killing Spectres with Boltguns. In conditions favorable to the Spectres. That's a fairly good return.

*Reapers* get lower returns shooting *Marines*, despite being OP and glass cannons.

The point I was trying to make was if you compair 1 marine boltgun shooting at a Spector to 3 guardsmen shooting at them and that shows the problems.

Same when you shoot a bolter at a marine vrs 3.25 Lasguns at a marine.

It compared 1 Marine Boltgun firing at a Spectre to 1 Guardsman Lasgun firing at a Marine. It was comparing what Boltguns do to Spectres vs another matchup that is commonly considered as killing something quickly.

"Same when you shoot a bolter at a marine vrs 3.25 Lasguns at a marine."
Fine, we'll do the math your way:
Marine Boltgun vs Spectre: 2.1 pts per shot
Marine Boltgun vs Marine: 13x(2/3)(1/2)(1/3), or 1.4 pts per shot
Again, that's Spectres with a Chapter Trait and outside 12", with no trait on the Marine.

We should just abandon that line of discussion; we're clearly not on the same page.

28x3.25x(1/6)×(1/2)x(1/3)= 2.53 points.

Guardsmen without orders still outshoot marines point for point.
Seams like your specters should be more worried about jimbob and his lasgun than a bolter still.

That's part of the fundamentally flawed balance in 8th edition.
With this 6 always nonsence GW hasn't expanded the stats enough for things to be different.

3 wounds or reduce all damage tecived by 1 to a minimum of 1. Terminator armor should also remove the penalty for using a powerfist or thunderhammer and should also remove the penalty for moving with a heavy weapon. Slight points increase and all set.

 buddha wrote:
3 wounds or reduce all damage tecived by 1 to a minimum of 1. Terminator armor should also remove the penalty for using a powerfist or thunderhammer and should also remove the penalty for moving with a heavy weapon. Slight points increase and all set.

So why even include lightning class as an option then?
I can hit on 3+ with a thunderhammers or 3+ with a lighning claw.

3 wounds is custodes territory and GW already has enough trouble trying to make marines and custodes diffrent.

Because LC give re-rolls to wound and extra attacks.

Ice_can wrote:

 buddha wrote:
3 wounds or reduce all damage tecived by 1 to a minimum of 1. Terminator armor should also remove the penalty for using a powerfist or thunderhammer and should also remove the penalty for moving with a heavy weapon. Slight points increase and all set.

So why even include lightning class as an option then?
I can hit on 3+ with a thunderhammers or 3+ with a lighning claw.

3 wounds is custodes territory and GW already has enough trouble trying to make marines and custodes diffrent.

Now you know why I was hammering in on the WS/BS2+ and A3 as a fix. It's basically universal for all elite Terminators without actually having to change points essentially.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

 buddha wrote:
3 wounds or reduce all damage tecived by 1 to a minimum of 1. Terminator armor should also remove the penalty for using a powerfist or thunderhammer and should also remove the penalty for moving with a heavy weapon. Slight points increase and all set.

So why even include lightning class as an option then?
I can hit on 3+ with a thunderhammers or 3+ with a lighning claw.

3 wounds is custodes territory and GW already has enough trouble trying to make marines and custodes diffrent.

Now you know why I was hammering in on the WS/BS2+ and A3 as a fix. It's basically universal for all elite Terminators without actually having to change points essentially.

Been on the same page as you on the WS2+/BS2+ thing for a long time, it's just a shame GW havn't got on board yet.
The A3 or I've wavered been as it could be busted by some of the newer chapters.

Ice_can wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

 buddha wrote:
3 wounds or reduce all damage tecived by 1 to a minimum of 1. Terminator armor should also remove the penalty for using a powerfist or thunderhammer and should also remove the penalty for moving with a heavy weapon. Slight points increase and all set.

So why even include lightning class as an option then?
I can hit on 3+ with a thunderhammers or 3+ with a lighning claw.

3 wounds is custodes territory and GW already has enough trouble trying to make marines and custodes diffrent.

Now you know why I was hammering in on the WS/BS2+ and A3 as a fix. It's basically universal for all elite Terminators without actually having to change points essentially.

Been on the same page as you on the WS2+/BS2+ thing for a long time, it's just a shame GW havn't got on board yet.
The A3 or I've wavered been as it could be busted by some of the newer chapters.

A3 with Power Fists at WS3+ isn't that absurd. It simply makes them better at cracking open tanks.
Plus A4 WS2+ Lightning Claws or A3 WS3+ Power Fists+Storm Bolter/TH+SS feels like a legit way to think about what you want and what you need.

Ice_can wrote:

 buddha wrote:
3 wounds or reduce all damage tecived by 1 to a minimum of 1. Terminator armor should also remove the penalty for using a powerfist or thunderhammer and should also remove the penalty for moving with a heavy weapon. Slight points increase and all set.

So why even include lightning class as an option then?
I can hit on 3+ with a thunderhammers or 3+ with a lighning claw.

3 wounds is custodes territory and GW already has enough trouble trying to make marines and custodes diffrent.

Custodes should have 5 wounds. More than a grotesque.

Martel732 wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

 buddha wrote:
3 wounds or reduce all damage tecived by 1 to a minimum of 1. Terminator armor should also remove the penalty for using a powerfist or thunderhammer and should also remove the penalty for moving with a heavy weapon. Slight points increase and all set.

So why even include lightning class as an option then?
I can hit on 3+ with a thunderhammers or 3+ with a lighning claw.

3 wounds is custodes territory and GW already has enough trouble trying to make marines and custodes diffrent.

Custodes should have 5 wounds. More than a grotesque.

Ehm.... no. Grotesques are ok with +1 or even +2W compared to custodes. Custodes should just have a better armor save, and of course they have better weapons to fight. But I'm also totally against the primaris concept and strongly feel that marines on 32mm base should be 1W, 2W for dudes on 40mm.


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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

A3 with Power Fists at WS3+ isn't that absurd. It simply makes them better at cracking open tanks.
Plus A4 WS2+ Lightning Claws or A3 WS3+ Power Fists+Storm Bolter/TH+SS feels like a legit way to think about what you want and what you need.

I agree. A3 WS3+ PF and A4 WS2+ Claws are tipycal for SW termies and they don't seem overpowered at all but not even bad, just an additional viable option on the table.

The survivability of Terminators is what gets to me the most. Experimented with house rules on saving throws, the two we found most useful were:

- Roll 2 dice on Invul saves

- Reroll Invul saves

The first felt right, it was just incredibly hard to kill them. The second felt balanced, more like it would work with other armies.

Then I stopped using Terminators because of the limited offensive output. Bolter Discipline has me thinking they may be useful again...

 techsoldaten wrote:
The survivability of Terminators is what gets to me the most. Experimented with house rules on saving throws, the two we found most useful were:

- Roll 2 dice on Invul saves

- Reroll Invul saves

The first felt right, it was just incredibly hard to kill them. The second felt balanced, more like it would work with other armies.

Then I stopped using Terminators because of the limited offensive output. Bolter Discipline has me thinking they may be useful again...

They'd be too strong if they have access to the 3++ though. At that point they'd need a price hike. Or maybe shields should be like 10 ppm, which is appropriate considering what they're adding to a model.

I honestly don't understand why bothering with termies if you give them bolter shots, as SM has plenty of other ranged anti infantry sources which are way more effective. Termies may be worth taking in a SM army only if they have a role that the army currently lacks: heavy melee specialists. I think all the changes to make termies worthwhile should go into that direction. Last thing SM need is another viable shooting platform.

If SM were the only ones who get terminators that would be nice.

But would you advocate on melee changes for Scarab Occults for example?

topaxygouroun i wrote:
If SM were the only ones who get terminators that would be nice.

But would you advocate on melee changes for Scarab Occults for example?

I think they should be very different rules wise. Even orks have terminators, but they have different rules and profile stats from the SM ones as it should be. I was referring to terminators with only the loyalist ones in mind.

Balancing a unit doesn't mean that all the equivalents from different codexes should be identical. T sons are a complete different army than vanilla SM and their standalone chapters.

Some termies could have access to 3++ for the entire squad, other ones could re-roll invulns, have a 5+++, fire twice, get +1W, +1WS and/or 1A... that's not the point, the terminators versions from different codexes should be different, and designed to have a role that is actually worthy for the faction they belong. I think the only way to fix imperium termies is to make them effective melee specialists. Other factions can have very different terminators equivalents, I don't think there's a universal way to fix and balance them all that doesn't make them OP. .

I don't think you can have melee specialist terminators without letting them drop T1. Even if you could, they just feel off. 2 attacks, no rerolls, standard SM statline and then powerfist nerfs their ws on top of that.

They are also not fast enough to become melee specialists. to me terminators should be average performing offense wise but should be the beasts of survivability. They are supposed to be thrown where the battle is the hottest and just take the punishment. 3 wounds, -1 damage from all sources to a minimum of 1, 4++ base with a 3++ max possibility, counting incoming fire as if having 1 ap less, this kind of thing. Just an incredibly unbreakable brick to drop in your opponent's rear and annoy them enough that they can't ignore them completely.

That depends on what kind of specialists they are.

Drop in fast, get in fast? That's Vanguard Vets (or ASM). Things like Scorpions, Storm Boyz, Alpha Zerkers and such are their counterparts in other armies.

Move up fast, move around fast, but not super-flimsy? SM Bikes (Vets or otherwise). Things like Spears, Biker Boys, Necron Wraiths, and Demon Princes do the same in other codexes.

In theory, Termies are show up late, hard to remove quickly, hit hard if not removed. We can look at MegaNobz, Wraithblades, and Incubi for how other armies pull it off. Cliff notes: this is a common role, but rarely works.

Giving them a Get-Stuck-In-Easy button without toning down their survivability or killiness in CC shifts their slot; without a price *hike*, they'd simply outperform their counterparts (within and without the codex). Giving them tons of maneuverability, same deal.

We could make them better at their role, but not much does that role well. The closest I can think of to filling that role and not sucking is IKs.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Give Terminators a "roll 3D6 for charge distance" stratagem. Bloodletters can do it, with +1 to charge range to boot. Orks can do a similar thing, with 'Ere We Go and +1 to charge distance, but without the 3D6.

Yeah but ththe difference a lot of the units that get those benefits aren't in significantly bulky armor that actually prohibits movement a lot. It kinda makes sense for Jump Packs and I'm surprised Bikers didn't get it. To suggest it on Terminators is along the silliness of them doing back flips which I KNOW some of you criticized.

And one of the units that gets it is Meganobz.

Just let them DS within 6" as opposed to 9" then, to simulate the superiority of teleportation compared to other forms of Deep Strike.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Give Terminators a "roll 3D6 for charge distance" stratagem. Bloodletters can do it, with +1 to charge range to boot. Orks can do a similar thing, with 'Ere We Go and +1 to charge distance, but without the 3D6.

Yeah but ththe difference a lot of the units that get those benefits aren't in significantly bulky armor that actually prohibits movement a lot. It kinda makes sense for Jump Packs and I'm surprised Bikers didn't get it. To suggest it on Terminators is along the silliness of them doing back flips which I KNOW some of you criticized.

And one of the units that gets it is Meganobz.

Just let them DS within 6" as opposed to 9" then, to simulate the superiority of teleportation compared to other forms of Deep Strike.

And I will argue that Meganobz have less holding them back in terms of technology than Terminators.

Broken record time. A third wound fixes the majority of their issues. Not ws/bs 2.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Give Terminators a "roll 3D6 for charge distance" stratagem. Bloodletters can do it, with +1 to charge range to boot. Orks can do a similar thing, with 'Ere We Go and +1 to charge distance, but without the 3D6.

Yeah but ththe difference a lot of the units that get those benefits aren't in significantly bulky armor that actually prohibits movement a lot. It kinda makes sense for Jump Packs and I'm surprised Bikers didn't get it. To suggest it on Terminators is along the silliness of them doing back flips which I KNOW some of you criticized.

And one of the units that gets it is Meganobz.

Just let them DS within 6" as opposed to 9" then, to simulate the superiority of teleportation compared to other forms of Deep Strike.

And I will argue that Meganobz have less holding them back in terms of technology than Terminators.

Are we talking about the same Meganobz here? The ones that have historically always had Slow and Purposeful, who are currently even slower than Terminators? Those Meganobz?

Martel732 wrote:
Broken record time. A third wound fixes the majority of their issues. Not ws/bs 2.

Except they're already more durable vs a host of weapons.

So quit your "but Dark Eldar" crap. I want you to list the weapons that Terminators lost durability to and by how much (if you actually looked at it, Autocannons are surprisingly not much more effective!) and in return I'll tell you what they increased in durability to.

Third. Wound. Does. Nothing. Period.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Give Terminators a "roll 3D6 for charge distance" stratagem. Bloodletters can do it, with +1 to charge range to boot. Orks can do a similar thing, with 'Ere We Go and +1 to charge distance, but without the 3D6.

Yeah but ththe difference a lot of the units that get those benefits aren't in significantly bulky armor that actually prohibits movement a lot. It kinda makes sense for Jump Packs and I'm surprised Bikers didn't get it. To suggest it on Terminators is along the silliness of them doing back flips which I KNOW some of you criticized.

And one of the units that gets it is Meganobz.

Just let them DS within 6" as opposed to 9" then, to simulate the superiority of teleportation compared to other forms of Deep Strike.

And I will argue that Meganobz have less holding them back in terms of technology than Terminators.

Are we talking about the same Meganobz here? The ones that have historically always had Slow and Purposeful, who are currently even slower than Terminators? Those Meganobz?

I see that as more moving regularly compared to an Ork REALLY wanting to get into the thick of it.

Third wound makes them 100% more survivable against overcharging plasma. Let's start with that and see how it goes from there.

I would argue that terminators should have a third wound, 4++ base and an extra attack on top of it to justify their points costs.

topaxygouroun i wrote:
Third wound makes them 100% more survivable against overcharging plasma. Let's start with that and see how it goes from there.

I would argue that terminators should have a third wound, 4++ base and an extra attack on top of it to justify their points costs.

Except Plasma has always been the tool meant to kill them, and it's only overcharged Imperial Plasma (which isn't even an issue). Tau Plasma is significantly less powerful killing them, as are Starcannons due to the new wounding chart and DD3 profile.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:
Third wound makes them 100% more survivable against overcharging plasma. Let's start with that and see how it goes from there.

I would argue that terminators should have a third wound, 4++ base and an extra attack on top of it to justify their points costs.

Except Plasma has always been the tool meant to kill them, and it's only overcharged Imperial Plasma (which isn't even an issue). Tau Plasma is significantly less powerful killing them, as are Starcannons due to the new wounding chart and DD3 profile.

Now if only half the factions in the game weren't imperial... And it's one thing "a tool meant to kill them" and quite another to casually kill 2 terminators with a single plasma gun and have it available to everyone. "a tool meant to kill everything in this edition, and here's reroll 1's for everyone just for the heck of it" seems more accurate description of plasma atm.

And the Tau plasma that says "Plasma" on the title is not real plasma. If you want the Tau equivalent to the plasma gun, look at the CIB.

The dissy cannon is still my bar for everything.

There are three kinds of units to me:

1) units erased by dissy that I don't care about, ie guardsmen
2) units erased that I do care about, ie all non storm shield marines
3) units that are not erased that I care about, like iks and rhinos.

3 wounds is a massive advantage over 2 wounds in 8th. The dissy cannon is a proxy for all kinds of other obnoxious stuff, too. 2 damage weapons are super good in 8th, and they ruin terminators, not the bs/ws.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:
Third wound makes them 100% more survivable against overcharging plasma. Let's start with that and see how it goes from there.

I would argue that terminators should have a third wound, 4++ base and an extra attack on top of it to justify their points costs.

Except Plasma has always been the tool meant to kill them, and it's only overcharged Imperial Plasma (which isn't even an issue). Tau Plasma is significantly less powerful killing them, as are Starcannons due to the new wounding chart and DD3 profile.

It wasnt in 2nd.

And i dont care to compare to previous editions. Their delta durability is not intersting in the current situation.

It isn't just IoM Plasma, but it isn't all plasma.

T'au Plasma is only D1, but DE plasma is D2, and some CWE Plasma is D2, too.

A third wound does a lot. Takes 50% more small arms to kill one. 100% more for most plasma.

Compare them to some other units: WraithGuard have T6 but only a 3+, and their TH/SS equivelents are a 3+/4++. They have 3 wounds. How much do they cost, and how effective are they?