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Slayer - BS/WS 2+ is meaningless for a terminator. Their biggest weakness is survivability. Yes - W3 does a lot more for terms than hitting a little better. A lot.

Meganobs should also be 3 wounds. As every other trash terminator variant should be FOR 0 ADDITIONAL cost. Plus they still need better weapons.

Meganobs are already 3 wounds.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Meganobs are already 3 wounds.

And obviously according to the overall history and trend throughout ages and lore terminators are less elite than meganobz - perhaps because meganobz have the letter 'Z' in their name.

But in all seriousness, termies need combination of two or more of the following to begin to remotely become viable:
-3rd wound.
-bring salvo back, allow certain keywords to always use the second value regardless of being stationary.
-bring relentless back.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Slayer - BS/WS 2+ is meaningless for a terminator. Their biggest weakness is survivability. Yes - W3 does a lot more for terms than hitting a little better. A lot.

Meganobs should also be 3 wounds. As every other trash terminator variant should be FOR 0 ADDITIONAL cost. Plus they still need better weapons.

If you want W3, you already have options in the way of Centurions and Custodes. W3 does nothing to show their elite status and merely creates whining that will lead to people saying they should have an unmodified 2+ because it fits the fluff.

You need to take a balance of fluff, crunch, and actual balance.

That's like saying if you want Tac Marine squads take Guardsmen. Sure, their roles are similar, but they aren't the same thing.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Slayer - BS/WS 2+ is meaningless for a terminator. Their biggest weakness is survivability. Yes - W3 does a lot more for terms than hitting a little better. A lot.

Meganobs should also be 3 wounds. As every other trash terminator variant should be FOR 0 ADDITIONAL cost. Plus they still need better weapons.

If you want W3, you already have options in the way of Centurions and Custodes. W3 does nothing to show their elite status and merely creates whining that will lead to people saying they should have an unmodified 2+ because it fits the fluff.

You need to take a balance of fluff, crunch, and actual balance.

This is why I've come around to the idea that there are too many profiles and the game needs some stuff flattened/deleted if it wants to get anywhere. You can't change any statline element on anything in the Imperium because of the knock-on effect to things above/below it.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Slayer - BS/WS 2+ is meaningless for a terminator. Their biggest weakness is survivability. Yes - W3 does a lot more for terms than hitting a little better. A lot.

Meganobs should also be 3 wounds. As every other trash terminator variant should be FOR 0 ADDITIONAL cost. Plus they still need better weapons.

If you want W3, you already have options in the way of Centurions and Custodes. W3 does nothing to show their elite status and merely creates whining that will lead to people saying they should have an unmodified 2+ because it fits the fluff.

You need to take a balance of fluff, crunch, and actual balance.

This is why I've come around to the idea that there are too many profiles and the game needs some stuff flattened/deleted if it wants to get anywhere. You can't change any statline element on anything in the Imperium because of the knock-on effect to things above/below it.

Yeah get rid of centurions. Hands down THE most redundant unit in the entire game. They were a mess of a unit that served no purpose except for spam grav weaponry when it was still a thing.

 skchsan wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Slayer - BS/WS 2+ is meaningless for a terminator. Their biggest weakness is survivability. Yes - W3 does a lot more for terms than hitting a little better. A lot.

Meganobs should also be 3 wounds. As every other trash terminator variant should be FOR 0 ADDITIONAL cost. Plus they still need better weapons.

If you want W3, you already have options in the way of Centurions and Custodes. W3 does nothing to show their elite status and merely creates whining that will lead to people saying they should have an unmodified 2+ because it fits the fluff.

You need to take a balance of fluff, crunch, and actual balance.

This is why I've come around to the idea that there are too many profiles and the game needs some stuff flattened/deleted if it wants to get anywhere. You can't change any statline element on anything in the Imperium because of the knock-on effect to things above/below it.

Yeah get rid of centurions. Hands down THE most redundant unit in the entire game. They were a mess of a unit that served no purpose except for spam grav weaponry when it was still a thing.

Well unfortunately for you, they DO exist and getting rid of the unit isn't gonna make things better. Now they make more sense with their weapons and stuff

Well, how can you demand that
1) Units exist that fill eachother's shoes
2) Units cannot be modified such that they fill eachother's shoes

I'm not sure how you can square those two demands.

Seems like (1) is inescapable, so the logical thing it to discard (2).

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Slayer - BS/WS 2+ is meaningless for a terminator. Their biggest weakness is survivability. Yes - W3 does a lot more for terms than hitting a little better. A lot.

Meganobs should also be 3 wounds. As every other trash terminator variant should be FOR 0 ADDITIONAL cost. Plus they still need better weapons.

If you want W3, you already have options in the way of Centurions and Custodes. W3 does nothing to show their elite status and merely creates whining that will lead to people saying they should have an unmodified 2+ because it fits the fluff.

You need to take a balance of fluff, crunch, and actual balance.

Generally in 8th ed currently:
1W model - light infantry aka expendable screen/cannon fodder
2W model - infantry, durable against most low end weapons, die just as fast as 1W model against right weapons
3W model - heavy infantry, the 'stuff of legends' infantries, dies just as fast as how fast 2W models die against right weapons.

So in essence, 3W models against plasma equivalent weapons are like 2W models facing against non-plasma equivalent weapons.

Termies having 3W is not that game breaking.

 skchsan wrote:
...Termies having 3W is not that game breaking.

It means 50% more durability against small arms fire, and stops them from getting insta-gibbed by overloaded plasma. I'd say that is pretty big change, and a needed one.

As for 3W termies "encroaching" on custode territory, I am of the personal opinion that custodes need 4 or 5 wounds anyway.

 skchsan wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Meganobs are already 3 wounds.

And obviously according to the overall history and trend throughout ages and lore terminators are less elite than meganobz - perhaps because meganobz have the letter 'Z' in their name.

But in all seriousness, termies need combination of two or more of the following to begin to remotely become viable:
-3rd wound.
-bring salvo back, allow certain keywords to always use the second value regardless of being stationary.
-bring relentless back.

Meganobz always had +1W than terminators. They used to be 2W while termies were 1W.

And no, they're not more elite than terminators because they have way lesser options available. The stock loadout, the possibility of replacing their gun with a kombi weapon among two options and alternatively they can drop both their standard weapons for a dobule killsaw. Terminators are certainly more elite than them, even if they have -1W.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

w1zard wrote:

 skchsan wrote:
...Termies having 3W is not that game breaking.

It means 50% more durability against small arms fire, and stops them from getting insta-gibbed by overloaded plasma. I'd say that is pretty big change, and a needed one.

As for 3W termies "encroaching" on custode territory, I am of the personal opinion that custodes need 4 or 5 wounds anyway.

Custodes with 4-5 wound should cost 80-100ppm then. Not sure if you really want them this way.

That is not a good measure of "eliteness", I think.

 Blackie wrote:

w1zard wrote:

 skchsan wrote:
...Termies having 3W is not that game breaking.

It means 50% more durability against small arms fire, and stops them from getting insta-gibbed by overloaded plasma. I'd say that is pretty big change, and a needed one.

As for 3W termies "encroaching" on custode territory, I am of the personal opinion that custodes need 4 or 5 wounds anyway.

Custodes with 4-5 wound should cost 80-100ppm then. Not sure if you really want them this way.

Meh. Either way, terminators should have three wounds. I was just trying to say that I don't think that "it would make them too similar to custodes" to be a valid reason why they shouldn't have three wounds, and that custodes could stand to be tougher too.

As for "it would make them too similar to custodes"...

Isn't Custodes the army where even their basic doods are TEQ?

I'm not sure whether Custodes need 4W or not, but it's hard to argue that TEQ can't have 3W because Custodes when Wraithguard, Pallies, MoN Termies, Mutas, and more already exist.

w1zard wrote:

Meh. Either way, terminators should have three wounds. I was just trying to say that I don't think that "it would make them too similar to custodes" to be a valid reason why they shouldn't have three wounds, and that custodes could stand to be tougher too.

3W seems too much. They're not primaris, just regular dudes with an armor. So +1W compared to a power armor dude is appropriate.

Bharring wrote:
As for "it would make them too similar to custodes"...

Isn't Custodes the army where even their basic doods are TEQ?

I'm not sure whether Custodes need 4W or not, but it's hard to argue that TEQ can't have 3W because Custodes when Wraithguard, Pallies, MoN Termies, Mutas, and more already exist.

Bingo. They aren't thinking about scaling whatsoever.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 skchsan wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Meganobs are already 3 wounds.

And obviously according to the overall history and trend throughout ages and lore terminators are less elite than meganobz - perhaps because meganobz have the letter 'Z' in their name.

But in all seriousness, termies need combination of two or more of the following to begin to remotely become viable:
-3rd wound.
-bring salvo back, allow certain keywords to always use the second value regardless of being stationary.
-bring relentless back.

My fix basically GIVES Relentless...

The *real* fix is killiness needs to go down across the board. 3W would be a stopgap.

Some things, like the entire DG army is TOO hard to kill. Killiness is out of whack across the board, not just too high.

Bharring wrote:
The *real* fix is killiness needs to go down across the board. 3W would be a stopgap.

Tis true. But maybe it'll hold over until 9th ed?

Bharring wrote:
The *real* fix is killiness needs to go down across the board. 3W would be a stopgap.

What is easier? Buff one unit or nerf everything across the board?

Keeping terminators at 2W also doesn't solve the problem of getting splatted by overloading plasma.

w1zard wrote:

Bharring wrote:
The *real* fix is killiness needs to go down across the board. 3W would be a stopgap.

What is easier? Buff one unit or nerf everything across the board?

Keeping terminators at 2W also doesn't solve the problem of getting splatted by overloading plasma.

The real question isn't what is easier but what is more useful the game?

Buffing one unit is easy but the purpose of doing that is to increase the balance of the overall game, not just a unit. I'd accept more killy termies, definitely not tougher ones. I'd just make them S5, that's the only change I'd like to see on them.

 Blackie wrote:
The real question isn't what is easier but what is more useful the game?

Buffing one unit is easy but the purpose of doing that is to increase the balance of the overall game, not just a unit. I'd accept more killy termies, definitely not tougher ones. I'd just make them S5, that's the only change I'd like to see on them.

Terminators need more staying power in addition to more firepower. Right now they are too fragile for their points, especially against 2W weapons like autocannons and overloaded plasma.

3W termies would increase the overall balance of the game.

w1zard wrote:

Right now they are too fragile for their points, especially against 2W weapons like autocannons and overloaded plasma.

Not all of them. 5 Termies with PF and SS just cost 170 points for 10W with 3++. They're extremely durable considering that they're just 17 points per wound (like a t-shirt save loota/tankbusta), plus they have natural deep strike which means some chances to charge avoiding shooting and with a close combat anti tank weapon. Damage2 weapons aren't even that common compared to Damage3, Damage D3 and Damage D6. With orks I only have a single ranged weapon which is damage 2, the lootas' gun. And lootas are worthy only under a single clan.

I don't think there's a way to make all termies worthy without also making them OP unless the changes lead them to have a single defined role. If they get tougher, more killy in melee and shooting they'd definitely need to get also a significant price hike. Consider that TWC are 3W 3+ save melee only, no deep strike and cost 40ppm, 50 with a shield. TWC may get cheaper with the next round of FAQ but I doubt they'll ever be less than 40ppm including a shield (+ weapon to factor in) which seems appropriate comparing to 25ppm termies with a shield+weapon to factor in.

I like 35ish ppm termies with 2W, 3++, and good close combat abilities. Some termies could be better at shooting but I think they'd also be 30-35ppm, including weapons, with 2W.

 Blackie wrote:
Not all of them. 5 Termies with PF and SS just cost 170 points for 10W with 3++. They're extremely durable considering that they're just 17 points per wound (like a t-shirt save loota/tankbusta), plus they have natural deep strike which means some chances to charge avoiding shooting and with a close combat anti tank weapon. Damage2 weapons aren't even that common compared to Damage3, Damage D3 and Damage D6. With orks I only have a single ranged weapon which is damage 2, the lootas' gun. And lootas are worthy only under a single clan.

I don't think there's a way to make all termies worthy without also making them OP unless the changes lead them to have a single defined role. If they get tougher, more killy in melee and shooting they'd definitely need to get also a significant price hike. Consider that TWC are 3W 3+ save melee only, no deep strike and cost 40ppm, 50 with a shield. TWC may get cheaper with the next round of FAQ but I doubt they'll ever be less than 40ppm including a shield (+ weapon to factor in) which seems appropriate comparing to 25ppm termies with a shield+weapon to factor in.

I like 35ish ppm termies with 2W, 3++, and good close combat abilities. Some termies could be better at shooting but I think they'd also be 30-35ppm, including weapons, with 2W.

And what about shooty termies without SS? Even having a stormshield, an autocannon hit has a (1/3) chance to kill them instantly.

The beta bolter rules already buff shooty termie firepower pretty adequately, but I still think that 3 wounds would make them far more viable and interesting. Mainly to stop 2W weapons for instagibbing them, but also to make them more resistant to weapons that roll d3 damage while not making them entirely immune.

As you said TWC are 3W 3+ save models with melee only for 40 points. However they can move much faster than terminators and I am pretty sure they have better stats too. Even if terminators had to go up in points to balance it out, I still think that 3W is the way to go.

w1zard wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
The real question isn't what is easier but what is more useful the game?

Buffing one unit is easy but the purpose of doing that is to increase the balance of the overall game, not just a unit. I'd accept more killy termies, definitely not tougher ones. I'd just make them S5, that's the only change I'd like to see on them.

Terminators need more staying power in addition to more firepower. Right now they are too fragile for their points, especially against 2W weapons like autocannons and overloaded plasma.

3W termies would increase the overall balance of the game.

Terminators are supposed to die to Plasma, and Autocannons aren't that much more effective. When Guard fire a single Autocannon, it is literally a difference of .07 Terminators dead compared to last edition (the kicker here is the new To Wound chart).

You're vastly overestimating the effectiveness of them.

w1zard wrote:


As you said TWC are 3W 3+ save models with melee only for 40 points.

40 points vs 23 points, with no access to 2ppm shields, means they're twice as expensive. For models that are actually faster but no natural deep strike means they'll suffer the enemy alpha strike. And since they're melee only they may attract two turns of shooting before getting into charge range and do something. Lol at your "only" 40 points.

A TWC with shield and melee weapon is 57+ points, depending on the weapon. 50 with a crappy chainsword. A terminator with PF and shield is just 34. Even if those TWC get a new point value and become 50ppm (it's unlikely they could actually get cheaper than that) with weapon and shield it would be absurd to have 34ppm termies with 3W. At that point TWC should be 4W, and lots of other units should get their +1W as well. 23ppm plus weapons for a 2+ 2W model with natural deep strike is absolutely fair. Or termies would need to be 35ish ppm+weapons which is worse than 23+weapons and 2W.

Even without storm shields termies' durability isn't an issue at all. They're in the same boat with their equivalents from other codexes. Those ones which already work aren't more durable, they're just more killy or have better synergies with their armies.

 Blackie wrote:
40 points vs 23 points, with no access to 2ppm shields, means they're twice as expensive. For models that are actually faster but no natural deep strike means they'll suffer the enemy alpha strike. And since they're melee only they may attract two turns of shooting before getting into charge range and do something. Lol at your "only" 40 points.

A TWC with shield and melee weapon is 57+ points, depending on the weapon. 50 with a crappy chainsword. A terminator with PF and shield is just 34. Even if those TWC get a new point value and become 50ppm (it's unlikely they could actually get cheaper than that) with weapon and shield it would be absurd to have 34ppm termies with 3W. At that point TWC should be 4W, and lots of other units should get their +1W as well. 23ppm plus weapons for a 2+ 2W model with natural deep strike is absolutely fair. Or termies would need to be 35ish ppm+weapons which is worse than 23+weapons and 2W.

Even without storm shields termies' durability isn't an issue at all. They're in the same boat with their equivalents from other codexes. Those ones which already work aren't more durable, they're just more killy or have better synergies with their armies.

I'd personally rather have termies be 30ppm plus weapons and have 3 wounds, than be 23 points plus weapons and have 2 wounds. Terminators are supposed to be the hardest of the hard infantry and they just don't feel like that now with only 2W.

TWC are a completely different kind of unit, and TBH are a little underpowered anyway, so that is an apples to oranges comparison.

They are hard to kill. They used to be 1W for decades.

Other SM units with 1,2 or 3W aren't tougher than them. And SM durability isn't an issue at all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

w1zard wrote:


TWC are a completely different kind of unit, and TBH are a little underpowered anyway, so that is an apples to oranges comparison.

No, they are very similar as they suffer from the same issue: they're not killy enough for their points.

 skchsan wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Slayer - BS/WS 2+ is meaningless for a terminator. Their biggest weakness is survivability. Yes - W3 does a lot more for terms than hitting a little better. A lot.

Meganobs should also be 3 wounds. As every other trash terminator variant should be FOR 0 ADDITIONAL cost. Plus they still need better weapons.

If you want W3, you already have options in the way of Centurions and Custodes. W3 does nothing to show their elite status and merely creates whining that will lead to people saying they should have an unmodified 2+ because it fits the fluff.

You need to take a balance of fluff, crunch, and actual balance.

This is why I've come around to the idea that there are too many profiles and the game needs some stuff flattened/deleted if it wants to get anywhere. You can't change any statline element on anything in the Imperium because of the knock-on effect to things above/below it.

Yeah get rid of centurions. Hands down THE most redundant unit in the entire game. They were a mess of a unit that served no purpose except for spam grav weaponry when it was still a thing.

You might not have realized it, but Centaurian devestators were just the practice run for primaris marines and are effectively primaris terminators.