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2020/12/19 07:57:40
Subject: Re:[Star Wars] The Mandalorian (spoilers)
I've noticed an effect that's made an appearance ever since the burly brawl in the Matrix 2, namely the idea that more is more. It's as if someone thinks that a scene can be improved by turning it up to 11. Then some eejit comes along and decides that it would be even more betterer if they turned it up to 12.
Jupiter Ascending, all the SW sequels, final episodes of ST Discovery season 2 and Picard season 1. All of those films/shows just keep adding stuff and don't know when to stop (like me attacking a box of Cadburys chocolate fingers...) and as a result, I'm not impressed - I just switch off.
I don't know if it's my age or the way that my brain works, but that stuff just doesn't imprint anything on my brain.
Compare that with this episode of the Mandalorian. Yes, a decent amount of impressive action and special effects, but it's dialled into that sweet spot. The absolute limits that I can focus on without overloading and switching off; end result? I'm glued to the screen going "woah!", "heh!" and "No effing way!". Normally, I'm quiet whilst watching things, this has got my wife occasionally wondering if I'm alright as a result of hearing strange noises coming from the lounge...
after watching a few reviews again, I noticed a odd part: when the dark trooper is punching him very hard repeatedly on the head, wouldn't his head pop off his neck? its not like the helmet is secured to the chest armor. not too weird in the moment, but a bit weird after a few rewatches.
Not even his head popping off, but enough contrecoup injury to turn his brain into a paste. There was a lot of nitpicks I had with this season to be honest. The positives I can think of is I like most of the characters and for the most part it feels like star wars (or at least moreso than disneys other attempts).
2020/12/19 09:02:50
Subject: Re:[Star Wars] The Mandalorian (spoilers)
I did watch an interesting episode of Generation Tech, where they commented on the Beskar armour and how, when we see it being made by the Armorer, it appears to have some sort of circuitry on the inside. They theorised that it might have some sort of inertial dampening field in it - works for me.
Doesn't matter if a material will stop a tank round, meatbags would still get turned into... well, bags of meat unless something else is going on. It's exactly the same issue that Iron Man faces with all the massive deceleration that he experiences.
I know that Star Wars is hardly the Expanse, but a little bit of hand-wavey space magic helps my head.
Big Mac wrote: after watching a few reviews again, I noticed a odd part: when the dark trooper is punching him very hard repeatedly on the head, wouldn't his head pop off his neck? its not like the helmet is secured to the chest armor. not too weird in the moment, but a bit weird after a few rewatches.
Back of his bonce is hard up against the wall though, bracing the neck. So it’s a hand wavium from me
Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?
Also, he starts out with his head against a bulkhead. If beskar is sufficiently stiff all the force will transmit through that to the wall rather than his face and neck. Droid should have pulled him away from the wall first.
Graphite wrote: Also, he starts out with his head against a bulkhead. If beskar is sufficiently stiff all the force will transmit through that to the wall rather than his face and neck. Droid should have pulled him away from the wall first.
The droid was two seconds from punching his head Thru the wall, helmet and all.
Graphite wrote: Also, he starts out with his head against a bulkhead. If beskar is sufficiently stiff all the force will transmit through that to the wall rather than his face and neck.
This was definitely how they were portraying it, the wall was getting more and more dented with each punch.
I wonder if after the events of this episode Din will hang up his spurs. The next season could see Boba become the main protagonist. He's still a Mandalorian. After that we might then switch to Bo Katan.
It would sort of tie in to them (generally) wearing a mask and passing on or inheriting things.
They can follow an overall arc but keep things fresh by swapping out characters and their respective goals.
Souleater wrote: I wonder if after the events of this episode Din will hang up his spurs. The next season could see Boba become the main protagonist. He's still a Mandalorian. After that we might then switch to Bo Katan.
It would sort of tie in to them (generally) wearing a mask and passing on or inheriting things.
They can follow an overall arc but keep things fresh by swapping out characters and their respective goals.
Din made a lot of enemies on this quest for the child. I don't think the Armorer or the Watch enclaves are going to be remotely happy about him abandoning the Way, or cooperating with Boba Fett or the Night Wrens. Bo's coming for him- probably for a very public duel, when he's at his best. Thrawn's still out there, and Gideon's cultural manipulation sure seems like he learned from Thrawn, or was associated with him.
Klawz-Ramming is a subset of citrus fruit?
Gwar- "And everyone wants a bigger Spleen!"
Mercurial wrote:
I admire your aplomb and instate you as Baron of the Seas and Lord Marshall of Privateers.
Orkeosaurus wrote:Star Trek also said we'd have X-Wings by now. We all see how that prediction turned out.
Orkeosaurus, on homophobia, the nature of homosexuality, and the greatness of George Takei.
English doesn't borrow from other languages. It follows them down dark alleyways and mugs them for loose grammar.
insaniak wrote: There's no need for it, though. They have thousands of years of timeline they can explore instead, and make something new rather than rehashing the sequel trilogy in the hope of coming up with something that pleases enough of the people who disliked the first lot to counteract alienating those who did.
The most likely course is that they just ignore the sequel era for a while to let everything die down, and once the vocal critics have moved on to complaining about something else, will consider exploring other stories in that setting. But it's certainly not critical that they spend much time right now in that part of the timeline... They've got a strong focus on the period immediately post-RotJ right now, which is working for them, and if High Republic proves popular that will give them all sorts of new possibilities.
There's no NEED for the current gamut of Disney's live-action remakes either. Outside of renewing the use of their personal use of the IP, I don't think there's anyone demanding to see the Aristocats or Lady and the Tramp as real cats or dogs.
Mulan shows you an example of how badly this venture has gone (rightfully given so how much they butchered the script to pander to both the home and Chinese audience, and the tone-deaf credit thanks to Xinjiang and China for letting them film there) but Disney hasn't made the choice yet to stop.
Don't get me wrong, I don't want them to remake the movies since that bird has flown and gone. I think personally they should just decanonize the movies. But there's precedence for soft or hard reboots for misaligned trilogies and the House of Mouse has made questionable decisions before in the pursuit of cash so I wouldn't put it past them to try and redo it at some point.
Ask yourself though, if 3 or 4 years later they announce a soft reboot using the weird time travel mechanic in rebels and Favreau and Filoni were the ones who are responsible for the whole trilogy, would you not watch it?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/19 14:50:48
Souleater wrote: I wonder if after the events of this episode Din will hang up his spurs. The next season could see Boba become the main protagonist. He's still a Mandalorian. After that we might then switch to Bo Katan.
It would sort of tie in to them (generally) wearing a mask and passing on or inheriting things.
They can follow an overall arc but keep things fresh by swapping out characters and their respective goals.
I’ve been wondering a similar thing; a bit like with Dr Who, by rotating the focus of the show they can keep it fresh & interesting and also allow the cast to do other projects / not get bored / typecast etc. Also allows them to bring new characters in and/or explore odd ideas.
I’m hoping that we’ll still see Din; he may not be the focus of the next series, but I figure he owes Boba one, so might show up to help out when needed.
Zed wrote: *All statements reflect my opinion at this moment. if some sort of pretty new model gets released (or if I change my mind at random) I reserve the right to jump on any bandwagon at will.
hotsauceman1 wrote: Disney has an entire park dedicated to the sequels.
They aint going to be considered non-canon.
They just aint going to touch them at all.
Nah, they are going to touch them in about 10-20 years when the generation of kids who grew up watching the sequels become young adults and Disney is going to milk them for the nostalgia just like they are doing with the fans of the prequel right now and what they did with the fans of the original trilogy when they launched the prequel and the first Clone Wars wave of cartoon and material. You don't touch a movie while it's still hot. You touch it when nostalgia and rose tinted glasses have set in and the story's greatest hit are now evident by how the audience remembers it.
2020/12/19 19:19:24
Subject: Re:[Star Wars] The Mandalorian (spoilers)
Fantastic episode, fantastic season in fact! I can't think of anything I would have changed or tweaked, it just felt like pure SW and was clearly made by a team who new their stuff and had a great love for what they were doing. Filoni and Favreau are clearly the ones who should be in charge of the universe for quite some time.
This season along with all the brilliant sounding new series and movies coming out in the near future make me feel pretty optimistic about the future of Star Wars. I'm quite happy pretending the sequels are some bad fan fiction and just going to enjoy all the new content we will be getting.
On the episode itself:
Spoiler:
Seeing Luke was amazing, they really nailed the methodical and slower OT style of fighting which I appreciated. Not too sold on the de-aged face, Tarkin didn't bother me in Rogue One but someting about Luke didn't really work for me. I'm sure that if he made a more lengthy appearance in the future they would cast an actor, hopefully Sebastian Stan, to play him.
Interested to see what will happen in the next season, Mando getting the dark sabre is clearly indicating that he will have some role in restoring Mandalore or pit him against Bo Katan, either of which would be pretty great to watch!
I wondered if the TIE launch sequence might have been a tribute to BSG? Especially with Starbuck there.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also occurred to me Fett was moved off stage so they didn't have to spoil Mando`s moment with a Luke Boba confrontation
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/19 21:32:12
I would have loved a Luke/Boba moment. Have like Boba see the monitors and be nope I need to not be here and hide behind a computer bank. Luke comes in, does the whole thing with Mando and Baby Yoda like they did, then as he’s leaving be like Oh, and I know you’re over there. You better behave. or some other kind of dismissive remark.
2020/12/20 02:30:23
Subject: Re:[Star Wars] The Mandalorian (spoilers)
There's no NEED for the current gamut of Disney's live-action remakes either. Outside of renewing the use of their personal use of the IP, I don't think there's anyone demanding to see the Aristocats or Lady and the Tramp as real cats or dogs.
Mulan shows you an example of how badly this venture has gone (rightfully given so how much they butchered the script to pander to both the home and Chinese audience, and the tone-deaf credit thanks to Xinjiang and China for letting them film there) but Disney hasn't made the choice yet to stop.
Mulan isn't really a good example of anything, given that it was released at a time when cinemas are either closed or doing very badly. In general, live action remakes make commercial sense because they have a built in audience from the nostalgia factor, so long as they're competently done.
It's difficult to see what commercial value there would be in rehashing the sequels rather than continuing to churn out content like the Mandalorian instead.
Ask yourself though, if 3 or 4 years later they announce a soft reboot using the weird time travel mechanic in rebels and Favreau and Filoni were the ones who are responsible for the whole trilogy, would you not watch it?
Sure, I'd watch it. I watched Dark Phoenix because I like the X-men. I was still disappointed that they chose to rehash a story that had already been done instead of exploring something new.
The time travel gambit worked for rebooting Star Trek because that universe was essentially dead. It wouldn't work here. In trying to appease the vocal haters, they would disenfranchise the fans who did enjoy the sequels, and would just confuse the hell out of the casual viewers. They would also be left trying to make a new sequel trilogy without Carrie Fisher, and most likely without Harrison Ford, although Hamill's involvement in the Mandalorian does suggest that he at least isn't totally sick of his character yet.
Far better to just leave it alone and carry on fleshing out the immediate post-RotJ period and the High Republic for now, and look at it again down the track when tempers have died down and the sequels have, for most people, moved into a similar 'Yeah, they're not Oscar-winners, but that's ok' category like the prequels.
Don't get me wrong, I don't want them to remake the movies since that bird has flown and gone. I think personally they should just decanonize the movies. But there's precedence for soft or hard reboots for misaligned trilogies and the House of Mouse has made questionable decisions before in the pursuit of cash so I wouldn't put it past them to try and redo it at some point.
Ask yourself though, if 3 or 4 years later they announce a soft reboot using the weird time travel mechanic in rebels and Favreau and Filoni were the ones who are responsible for the whole trilogy, would you not watch it?
Eh. Honestly I just think its better to accept that you aren't going to like everything in a franchise. The idea that they're going to 'decanonize' financially successful films is just strange and bizarre wish-listing.
The problem is that its not a matter of not liking them, but they are so bad, so offensive that they sully it.
I have been part of several fandoms, Star Trek, MLP, Fallout, Mass Effect and sooo much more.
Ofcourse whenever something new come outs,people will hate it(Discovery, Fallout 4, Andromeda, every season of every show i enjoy)
But the Sequels i have seen where so hated by so much.
The Prequels are fallout 4, the Sequels are Fallout 76
hotsauceman1 wrote: The problem is that its not a matter of not liking them, but they are so bad, so offensive that they sully it. I have been part of several fandoms, Star Trek, MLP, Fallout, Mass Effect and sooo much more. Ofcourse whenever something new come outs,people will hate it(Discovery, Fallout 4, Andromeda, every season of every show i enjoy) But the Sequels i have seen where so hated by so much. The Prequels are fallout 4, the Sequels are Fallout 76
Pretty much. The problem is that the sequels actively undermine the story arc and redemption of Anakin Skywalker in the previous 2 trilogies. Not only does the prophecy of Anakin balancing the force by saving his son from Palpatine mean squat because Palpatine had a revive button, but the sequel trilogy continues this character assassination on Luke as well by showing him as borderline acting out premeditated murder towards his own nephew over visions that didn't even happen yet, even though in the original trilogy he actively tried to bring back his father to the light, a well known war criminal and murderer at that point. I mean you can say he got jaded along the way when he was making his new jedi order, but that's a fundamental part of him that doesn't make any sense when Kylo hasn't even done anything yet. And then they have the audacity for Rey to continue the Skywalker line as if she had earned it. If they were their own self-contained story that didn't tie into the original cast or story of the first two trilogies, I wouldn't care. But the fact that it does makes the series actively worse off overall IMO.
It's like JK Rowling retconning all that stuff for details that either contradict or make no sense with the established canon of Harry Potter to get woke points. You can ignore it if you want, but it's better if its not there to begin with.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/20 05:28:05
I more or less liked the sequel trilogy, it was incompetently plotted and paced but that's more or less standard these days
Luke's failure was forecast by Yoda several times so I had no issue with that.
I think Disney's best move going forward is to flesh them out more. Think about how much the Clone Wars (both the original animated and the later CGI) fleshed out the prequels. Once all those funny looking alien Jedi had personality and histories, we actually cared about them all dying in the last 5 minutes of Revenge.
Besides the issues I mentioned with the sequels, there was also a lot of world building that they just didn't have time for. The original Star Wars was remarkable for how much info they got out so economically and the sequels and prequels just didn't have that knack.
(Except for the reveal about Snoke, that was awesome, tip of the hat both for doing it, and doing it so efficiently)
Yoda was wrong about everything. Even before the Prequel Trilogy came along and painfully demonstrated the staggering, myopic arrogance of the Jedi Order during the rise of Palpatine, we already knew from the Original Trilogy that Yoda and Obi-Wan were wrong about Vader and Luke.
The people behind the Sequel Trilogy simply missed and/or disregarded the point of Luke’s arc. (Just like how they misunderstood the fake “goofy” persona Yoda used to test Luke in ESB.)
By contrast, Luke’s appearance in The Mandalorian finale shows us a perspective on that character by people who got it.
Easily fixed by porting those trash movies into Legends where they belong and letting Filoni and Favreau tell the real tale, incorporating the best parts of the EU going forward.
Holy gak that’s actually an option isn’t it? They could do that...and honestly I think they should.
That really, really isn't going to happen.
They could easily treat it like the Kelvin timeline for Star Trek. And honestly they should, the SeQs were hugely disrespectful to 40+ years of story telling and tens of millions of fans. Filoni and Favreau have managed to capture the spirit, hope and great story telling of the originals and the prequels with 16 episodes of a thirty minute show. If Kennedy had any sense she's sign the pay checks and put those two in charge of running the show and deciding what is Canon and what isn't. I've no doubt in my mind that Lucas would approve.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Manchu wrote: Yoda was wrong about everything. Even before the Prequel Trilogy came along and painfully demonstrated the staggering, myopic arrogance of the Jedi Order during the rise of Palpatine, we already knew from the Original Trilogy that Yoda and Obi-Wan were wrong about Vader and Luke.
The people behind the Sequel Trilogy simply missed and/or disregarded the point of Luke’s arc. (Just like how they misunderstood the fake “goofy” persona Yoda used to test Luke in ESB.)
By contrast, Luke’s appearance in The Mandalorian finale shows us a perspective on that character by people who got it.
This.
I've seen a lot of jokes and such about "hallway scenes" but the simple fact is that this was a brilliant scene.
With Vader, we saw and felt first hand the anger, the hatred and the fear. He was savage showing no mercy or remorse. And Vader always felt at odds with the force, was he controlling it? Or was it merely illusion?
With Luke, we saw and felt first hand the control, no fear, no emotion. He was in control, elegant and flowing, one with the force. Luke was a master, Vader was simply a slave. He just didn't comprehend it.
I've said this since I was a little kid. It's always been my belief that the prophecy was interpreted wrong. Luke, was the chosen one, not Anakin. It's a great story, not some opus of sci fi, but a competent and good story and one that is full of adventure and enjoyment for the audience.
Luke defeated the Emperor without using either the force, or violence. Anakin brought balance, Luke was the birth of a new order. A new way forward.
"I will never turn to the dark side. You've failed your Highness, I am a Jedi...like my father before me."
The new movies completely missed everything. They missed every opportunity...and I firmly believe it was because Disney just wanted the cash. Someone could have told them: "Look, lets take our time, do this the right way and build a universe up from what we have like we did with the Marvel stuff. In 10-20 years you'll make 50 billion dollars off all this." And the talking heads response was "I just want 2 billion dollars right fn' now, so lets get this stuff pumped out as quickly as possible."
Literally a 4 minute scene from a half our show that's one major flaw is the fact it's a half hour show and suffers from that runtime was better than all three of the sequel trilogy movies combined, X100.That alone speaks volumes about how wrong the Disney leadership has been time after time.
Remember when there were some in the company who said that Star Wars fans hate women because of all the hate Rey and Rose got? Well, why didn't Ashoka, Bo-Katan, Koska, Carasynthia Dune, or literally any of the other female characters from the Mandalorian not get this hate? In fact, why were they treated entirely the opposite? Could it be because they're well written, powerful and fun all without having a bunch of political stuff tossed in to smash the audience of the head with? Or, could it be that Dave and John know how to write characters, male or female or even droid?
There is so much potential here, with all these new shows coming and the new Rogue Squadron movie, Disney has the chance to fix this and they can even do it with their mistake, by simply saying "The ST was a "What If" that "Could have Been"" If they were have as smart as they seem to think they are, they'd announce this tomorrow and move on with it.
Don't get me wrong, I don't want them to remake the movies since that bird has flown and gone. I think personally they should just decanonize the movies. But there's precedence for soft or hard reboots for misaligned trilogies and the House of Mouse has made questionable decisions before in the pursuit of cash so I wouldn't put it past them to try and redo it at some point.
Ask yourself though, if 3 or 4 years later they announce a soft reboot using the weird time travel mechanic in rebels and Favreau and Filoni were the ones who are responsible for the whole trilogy, would you not watch it?
Eh. Honestly I just think its better to accept that you aren't going to like everything in a franchise. The idea that they're going to 'decanonize' financially successful films is just strange and bizarre wish-listing.
Why? The story of that trilogy is complete, the money has been made. Not to mention the fact that if they do, and go back to continue on from what Mando has done, introducing characters like Thrawn and "be still my beating hear" Mara Jade, they'll literally make 100 times the money. And since we know that's all they care about is the money, there is no reason not to do it.
The ST is Legends.
Problem literally solved with one press release and then its off to the races on letting Dave and John print money for the next ten years the way the MCU did.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/12/20 09:27:31
Kid_Kyoto wrote: Wrong? Yoda said training Anakin was a bad idea and that this Luke person wasn't cut out to be a Jedi.
Seems he has a pretty good record.
Those are both great examples of Yoda being wrong.
Let’s start with Luke in the OT: Yoda and Obi-Wan were both committed to the idea that Luke would confront and defeat Vader and the Emperor. This is exactly what the Emperor foresaw and he constructed a trap around it. Luke overcame the trap by breaking out of the narrow way of thinking characterizing both Yoda’s and the Emperor’s dichotomous worldviews. Luke refused to fight and thereby inspired his father to “wake up” at the last minute, shake off the shackles of the dichotomy, and do the simple thing any parent should automatically do: protect his son. It didn’t come down to the Light Side and the Dark Side or whatever mystical and transcendent philosophies; it ended up hinging on something much more fundamental that neither Yoda nor the Emperor could see. But it was something that Luke saw, or rather felt, clearly.
And now Anakin in the PT: Yoda had misgivings about training Anakin, sure, but what did he do about that? Not only did he allow Anakin to be trained despite his concerns, Yoda did not bother to do anything to make sure that Anakin would get the proper training he needed. This is because Yoda couldn’t even recognize what needed to be done; that what Anakin really needed was simple guidance and compassion. Even near the end, when Anakin was on the verge of breaking down, he tried to go see Yoda for advice. And the muppet didn’t appear to see any of the stark warning signs; he just gave Anakin some dumb platitude about “letting go” — so naturally, receiving no emotional support from the Jedi throughout his whole life, Anakin fell under the influence of a fatherly figure right in front of the Jedi Council, who (again despite their misgivings concerning Palpatine) failed to do anything about it.
Togusa wrote: With Vader, we saw and felt first hand the anger, the hatred and the fear. He was savage showing no mercy or remorse. And Vader always felt at odds with the force, was he controlling it? Or was it merely illusion?
With Luke, we saw and felt first hand the control, no fear, no emotion. He was in control, elegant and flowing, one with the force. Luke was a master, Vader was simply a slave. He just didn't comprehend it.
Beautifully, expertly explained.
Togusa wrote: Remember when there were some in the company who said that Star Wars fans hate women because of all the hate Rey and Rose got? Well, why didn't Ashoka, Bo-Katan, Koska, Carasynthia Dune, or literally any of the other female characters from the Mandalorian not get this hate? In fact, why were they treated entirely the opposite? Could it be because they're well written, powerful and fun all without having a bunch of political stuff tossed in to smash the audience of the head with? Or, could it be that Dave and John know how to write characters, male or female or even droid?
Isn’t it amazing how simple and clear the truth is?
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/12/20 10:12:29
Kid_Kyoto wrote: Wrong? Yoda said training Anakin was a bad idea and that this Luke person wasn't cut out to be a Jedi.
Seems he has a pretty good record.
Those are both great examples of Yoda being wrong.
Let’s start with Luke in the OT: Yoda and Obi-Wan were both committed to the idea that Luke would confront and defeat Vader and the Emperor. This is exactly what the Emperor foresaw and he constructed a trap around it. Luke overcame the trap by breaking out of the narrow way of thinking characterizing both Yoda’s and the Emperor’s dichotomous worldviews. Luke refused to fight and thereby inspired his father to “wake up” at the last minute, shake off the shackles of the dichotomy, and do the simple thing any parent should automatically do: protect his son. It didn’t come down to the Light Side and the Dark Side or whatever mystical and transcendent philosophies; it ended up hinging on something much more fundamental that neither Yoda nor the Emperor could see. But it was something that Luke saw, or rather felt, clearly.
And now Anakin in the PT: Yoda had misgivings about training Anakin, sure, but what did he do about that? Not only did he allow Anakin to be trained despite his concerns, Yoda did not bother to do anything to make sure that Anakin would get the proper training he needed. This is because Yoda couldn’t even recognize what needed to be done; that what Anakin really needed was simple guidance and compassion. Even near the end, when Anakin was on the verge of breaking down, he tried to go see Yoda for advice. And the muppet didn’t appear to see any of the stark warning signs; he just gave Anakin some dumb platitude about “letting go” — so naturally, receiving no emotional support from the Jedi throughout his whole life, Anakin fell under the influence of a fatherly figure right in front of the Jedi Council, who (again despite their misgivings concerning Palpatine) failed to do anything about it.
Togusa wrote: With Vader, we saw and felt first hand the anger, the hatred and the fear. He was savage showing no mercy or remorse. And Vader always felt at odds with the force, was he controlling it? Or was it merely illusion?
With Luke, we saw and felt first hand the control, no fear, no emotion. He was in control, elegant and flowing, one with the force. Luke was a master, Vader was simply a slave. He just didn't comprehend it.
Beautifully, expertly explained.
Togusa wrote: Remember when there were some in the company who said that Star Wars fans hate women because of all the hate Rey and Rose got? Well, why didn't Ashoka, Bo-Katan, Koska, Carasynthia Dune, or literally any of the other female characters from the Mandalorian not get this hate? In fact, why were they treated entirely the opposite? Could it be because they're well written, powerful and fun all without having a bunch of political stuff tossed in to smash the audience of the head with? Or, could it be that Dave and John know how to write characters, male or female or even droid?
Isn’t it amazing how simple and clear the truth is?
We all obviously know there are some very poorly mannered fans out there with dubious opinions. But, it's plain as day the difference between someone like Leia, Ashoka and Bo-Katan or even Jyn, and say, Rey, Holdo, Rose or Zorii. The first group feel like real people, with hopes and dreams and flaws, triumphs and depth. The second group feel like the exist to preach to me some odd concepts that I'm not entirely sure the writers themselves understood.
5000pts 
6000pts 
3000pts
