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LordofHats wrote: It's possible (and somewhat implied early in the season) that the galactic senate still has some power. Enough that going after Bail openly is something the Inquisitors can't do and if they can't do it's because Palpatine doesn't want them to. He didn't dissolve the Senate until ANH, so while there are some very action and secret plan ways this can end, it can also end with Bail showing up, taking Leia, and leaving and Vader being forced to stand down and leave it be. Palpatine doesn't have his hate boner for Obi-Wan and would care more about keeping the Senate in line until he can get rid of it.
Let's see if I'm right again!
I feel like this is pretty much the only play they have now, and it's really terrible when you actually write out how little has actually happened between all the episodes.
The bigger problem is will people buy it? It's actually completely in line with the canon (irony?) but usually the Empire is depicted as an all powerful tyrannical state that does what it wants and isn't beholden to anyone or anything. Star Wars had this same problem in the prequel trilogy and in Clone Wars. It's generally suffered trying to explain the dynamics of power. Which is a pretty common problem in a lot of fiction and isn't just a Star Wars thing. Star Wars just has a history of running into a wall trying to make galatic politics a topic while also having a plot so simple someone who partied their way through college can understand it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/06/22 02:45:42
warboss wrote: The show clearly needs a song and dance number for the big finale. Also, on a completely unrelated note, I started watching RRR today for a bit.
I mean they did Rogers! The Musical in Hawkeye, I wouldn't bat an eye now if they literally ended a show off with a modern rendition of the Life Day Song from the Star Wars Holiday Special as the ultimate nostalgia bomb for the finale.
Overall thoughts so far: decent, not great. IMO it's definitely doing a good job of putting the last nail in the coffin of a single canon though. I think the best way to enjoy these shows is to consider them separate takes on the general theme and not put too much effort into trying to rationalize everything into a single timeline. Otherwise you end up with stuff like the old-canon article on the evacuation from Yavin, where the rebels evacuated and returned a dozen times to somehow make all of the different video games/comics/etc fit into a single canon. I'll take a single canon where it makes sense but I'm beyond getting too upset about conflicts as long as movie/show still stands on its own.
Lance845 wrote: Seriously. How does this wrap up in a single episode that doesn't put Leia at incredible risk for the rest of her life and makes sense when Vader has interactions with her in A New Hope? What fething corner have they written themselves into?
Does Vader really care? At this point Leia is just some random senator's kid and it wasn't even Vader's own plan to kidnap her. Why would Vader care about following up on his idiot subordinate's failed plan, especially after casually disposing of her and putting her boss back in charge?
LordofHats wrote: The bigger problem is will people buy it? It's actually completely in line with the canon (irony?) but usually the Empire is depicted as an all powerful tyrannical state that does what it wants and isn't beholden to anyone or anything. Star Wars had this same problem in the prequel trilogy and in Clone Wars. It's generally suffered trying to explain the dynamics of power. Which is a pretty common problem in a lot of fiction and isn't just a Star Wars thing. Star Wars just has a history of running into a wall trying to make galatic politics a topic while also having a plot so simple someone who partied their way through college can understand it.
I'd buy something like that no problem. It's been shown over and over again that the Empire isn't all-powerful. Pretty much the first line of dialogue in the movie is Leia trying to claim diplomatic immunity, Tarkin's subordinates are concerned with the senate being upset, Tatooine is shown as a backwater largely beyond the Empire's control, the rebellion manages to operate an entire fleet of mile-long space battleships, etc. What we see is a state that wants to become all-powerful and tyrannical but is still in the process of finishing off the last opposition. So I think it would work just fine for Leia to be returned home, idiot subordinate to be blamed for acting without authorization, and nobody being able to move openly against her parents without proof of their treason.
Lance845 wrote: Seriously. How does this wrap up in a single episode that doesn't put Leia at incredible risk for the rest of her life and makes sense when Vader has interactions with her in A New Hope? What fething corner have they written themselves into?
This is the problem that Disney+ shows have as a whole.
Each episode is 2 acts of a 3 act story, choosing to resolve the third act as the first act of the next episode, and this rolls over until you have episodes that don't go anywhere from a narrative perspective (it's why Hawkeye never had a plot, as the first 5 episodes were all set up to a bland payoff, and why Moon Knight had a very interesting protagonist stuck in a world that wasn't nearly as interesting). Pamphlet of Fett couldn't even manage to stick with its main character for its entire run, taking a 2 episode detour to visit someone we cared far more about.
And as they insist on having 6 episodes, and worse, making these bizarre 30-ish minute episodes (+15 minutes of credits) rather than letting the stories play out, nothing ever feels narratively satisfying, like they need us to come back next week to see the part of the story they left off. It's a subscription service, not network TV. We're already paying to see this. We're coming back.
You can criticise Netflix all you like for their release schedule, but in the (immensely strong) Stranger Things Season 4, they've let the episodes be as long as they need to be. The stories feel complex and complete. The cliffhanger at the end of Season 4 part one felt like a cliffhanger, and not, to go back to Hawkeye, an episode never comes back after the commercial because the writers confused an act break with a completed script (in this instance, the moment where Swordsman puts his blade to Clint... and the episode just stops!).
There's an art to 'leave them wanting more', but most of the time with D+ shows it just comes across as 'leave them feeling cheated'.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/06/22 03:23:29
warboss wrote: The show clearly needs a song and dance number for the big finale. Also, on a completely unrelated note, I started watching RRR today for a bit.
I mean they did Rogers! The Musical in Hawkeye, I wouldn't bat an eye now if they literally ended a show off with a modern rendition of the Life Day Song from the Star Wars Holiday Special as the ultimate nostalgia bomb for the finale.
CadianSgtBob wrote: Does Vader really care? At this point Leia is just some random senator's kid and it wasn't even Vader's own plan to kidnap her. Why would Vader care about following up on his idiot subordinate's failed plan, especially after casually disposing of her and putting her boss back in charge?
Vader doesn't have any reason to care about Leia specifically, but given that Reva's plan of using her as bait to lure out Kenobi worked, it would seem to leave her (or her foster parents) a target so long as Vader thinks Kenobi is still alive. So my guess is that the finale will include something to make Vader think Obi Wan is dead.
insaniak wrote: Vader doesn't have any reason to care about Leia specifically, but given that Reva's plan of using her as bait to lure out Kenobi worked, it would seem to leave her (or her foster parents) a target so long as Vader thinks Kenobi is still alive. So my guess is that the finale will include something to make Vader think Obi Wan is dead.
Worked maybe, but at what cost? Reva's boss calling her a raging lunatic for kidnapping a senator's kid makes it pretty clear that even the Empire's top people have limits. My read on it is that Vader is willing to go along with the plan with his disposable minion set to take the blame and give him plausible deniability, but making use of a plan where the price is already paid is very different from ordering a second threat against her with no plausible deniability available. And remember, Vader doesn't know she's anything special beyond being related to one of Obi Wan's old war buddies. There's probably a long list of potential targets Vader could threaten without going after a powerful senator. A shift in priorities seems a lot more likely than Vader thinking his biggest enemy is dead but somehow not being surprised at all to see him alive in ANH.
It also fits neatly with what we see in ANH: despite it being an open secret that Leia and Alderaan are aiding the rebellion the Empire is still reluctant to move openly against them and Leia seems to have a credible belief that her excuse of diplomatic immunity will work on them. And that's after a decade more of the Empire consolidating its power.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/06/22 04:49:03
No spoilers at all. I enjoyed it, but I think it may prove a bit divisive. Not in a Prequels way, just bits I think some will enjoy and others won’t.
Overall really rather good. Series would perhaps have benefitted from being a movie, but I’m not sure what you could really cut (other than part 4) plot wise. Like Rogue One, I don’t think anyone needs to see this series, but it does add some fun context here and there. Importantly I don’t think it detracts from what came before, nor causes any confusion/plot conflicts. I’ll go into those at a later time, once others have had a chance to watch and digest and form your own opinions.
Little Leia remains the stand out character and actress for me. Wouldn’t mind seeing her pop up elsewhere (and they’ve 9 years of “what happened next” to play with, for good or for ill. And I wouldn’t say anyone was deadweight character or actor wise.
Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?
Watched it, liked it well enough. Was it necessary? No. Was it at least an entertaining few hours and better than the incoherent mess of Boba Fett? Absolutely. Spoilers since it's still early morning for most people:
Spoiler:
Definitely liked the resolution to the final fight. Neither one is dead, Vader still lost his most recent encounter and can give the "now I am the master" line, and Obi Wan is set in his "you're dead to me" verdict.
The thing with Luke gets a bit weird with ANH. He gets dad's lightsaber and it's a new thing, not "oh hey I remember that creepy woman tried to kill me with one of these!". And Owen gets his ass kicked by an evil jedi but still wants to send away the only guy who might be able to stop Luke from getting chopped into tiny pieces next time one shows up?
Clearly the star destroyer gunners went to the storm trooper marksmanship school, but I guess that's standard when the heroes are aboard.
Definitely agree that the girl playing Leia nailed it. Can 100% see how she becomes the OT character we love.
Wow, that was a bad finale trying to tape up all the loose ends that the show unnecessarily cut. From the most obvious babyface turn in Star Wars and copy of a copy "fan service" to the crap green screen reshoot effects at a pivotal moment and jarring poorly staged reunions, this really was amateur hour big budget fanfic on the small screen. It's as if they combined The Last Jedi with Rise of Skywalker to make a streaming show. That, like Boba Fett, should have been a four hour mini-series at most without the padding and maybe it would have as a whole been elevated to "good" potentially. Three duels between Anakin and Vader (including the fake out that didn't happen) when the Ep3 finale to the prequels was plenty? Ugh...
The Vader fight was the best part. Right up until Obi Wan started doing his magical rock barrage.
I mean. I feel like it was a pretty important bit that Yoda says "a Jedi use the force for knowledge and defense and never attack." Turning Obi using the force in a clear barrage of offensive displays as a heroic moment should be a terrible moment of falling to the dark side.
But whatever. Consistency is dead.
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
I can't believe that Reva stayed evil, killed Owen, Beru and Luke, took Vader's place and became the Emperor! And - although I could be wrong about this - I think Darth Vader is Luke/Leia's father!
Spoiler:
Oh no, wait, that didn't happen. Instead what we knew would happen happened. I tell ya: From that first damned trailer I knew she wouldn't be a bad guy by the end. I thought I would happen earlier, around the mid-point, but the end result is the same. Can't have prominent new characters actually be evil unless they're irredeemably bad. That's not the Disney way! She can join Boba "The Crimelord of No More Crime!" Fett and Iden "Instant Rebel" Verso in the ranks of bad guys who went soft real fast thanks to the Mouse House.
Overall...
Spoiler:
... this show had a much better finish than I was expecting (or that it deserved). It actually resolved things, however hastily (some might say ham-fistedly in the case of the Reva nonsense), and we got another really affecting Obi/Leia scene towards the end when he talks about her real parents.
The actual fight was good. Now Vader's little speech in ANH rings true. I never thought their little scuffle in episode 3 would be their only confrontation - my God, can you imagine if it had? - but it was nice to see a proper fight. Didn't expect the force-rock slinging on such a massive level, and it makes me wonder why they weren't doing that kinda stuff in ROTS (but trust that film to find a way to disappoint me again nearly 20 years after its release! ).
Overall a cool fight though, and I especially liked the way they cracked Vader's helmet, and we got the blending of Hayden and JEJ's voices, just like in Rebels. I take it Vader has a stock of those helmets, as it's going to happen to him again in a few years. Of course, during the "Your strength has returned, but the weakness remains. And that is why you will always lose!" instantly made me think of this. :rofl:
I don't know why the director thought that it would be a good idea to have a figure dressed all in black chase someone through a pitch-black desert at night. That was Battle of Winterfel levels of "WTF is going on?". Even having her searching with her sabre out would have given some indication of... location!
Can we expect Star Wars: Roken to be the next announcement from LucasFilm? Sure feels that way. Not that mind Mini Cube as an actor, but that whole group of characters were rather ill defined and just kind of dumped on us like we were meant to give a gak (pour one out for Wade, y'all... assuming you can remember which one he was!).
Boy it took a long time for the Devastator to not destroy/disable them. Were they using the Lego version of that ship, or something?
Beru was cool. And she got more than a single word this time around. Very pleased.
I was very happy with Qui-Gon showing up. Boy what a waste of time that excellent 5 minute prequel recap would'a been if they hadn't paid that off. Shame it's all we got, but I'll take it.
So overall I'd give this episode a 7 out of 10. Well above average. Certainly far better than I thought it'd be.
Overall the series gets a 4/10 because, well, to recap:
Part 1 - Obi is down and out. Leia is kidnapped. Part 2 - Obi rescues Leia and escapes. Part 3 - Obi continues to escape with Leia. Leia is kidnapped. Again. Part 4 - Obi rescues Leia (again) and escapes (again). Part 5 - Obi continues to escape (again!). Part 6 - Obi decides to stop escaping and just fight. The series main villain turns good, like she was always going to.
Bring on Andor, a show that seems to be ditching the Disney+ Curse and actually giving itself room to breathe and tell its story.
Consistency died the moment Boba Fett decided that he needed to fight for "his people", the people of a small Tatooinian town out in the wastes who he'd never met. It's a shock he didn't end the episode calling them "family", Fast & Furious style.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2022/06/22 13:02:40
H.B.M.C. wrote: I can't believe that Reva stayed evil, killed Owen, Beru and Luke, took Vader's place and became the Emperor! And - although I could be wrong about this - I think Darth Vader is Luke/Leia's father!
Yeah, they telegraphed that early on. The only part that surprised me was when she took a porg as her own secret apprentice. Expectations subverted!
Lance845 wrote: The Vader fight was the best part. Right up until Obi Wan started doing his magical rock barrage.
I mean. I feel like it was a pretty important bit that Yoda says "a Jedi use the force for knowledge and defense and never attack." Turning Obi using the force in a clear barrage of offensive displays as a heroic moment should be a terrible moment of falling to the dark side.
But whatever. Consistency is dead.
Not sure I agree.
Obi-Wan was clearly emotional, even using his hatred to some degree. Not a loss of control as such, but definitely Not Thinking Nice Thoughts.
Memory is failing your Yoda quote was OT or Prequels. If OT, it could be Yoda trying to steer Luke away from being corrupted as he was during the Clone Wars?
Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?
Well that happened, like I might have said before was okay(ish) if you judge it as a live action carry on of Clone Wars/Rebels, although a little baffled how grumpy Quistor lady seem to be able fast travel to Tattooenie
The big fight was somewhat Ahsoka / Vader but hey lightsabers
Still think you could squish it down to two long (1h30-2h) specials with a bit of determined editing mind
Spoiler:
And if you gonna memberberry make em big Orish memberberrys
"AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME...SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED."
I liked it. A decent finale to a generally rocky show.
I think I may have said the same thing about Book of Bobba, but I think this (and the show at large) were better in general.
Overall it seems like the showrunners had a few ideas they were really excited about and those got a lot of development, while a lot of the connecting tissue feels underdeveloped. This episode clearly had a lot of the ideas they were really excited about.
At the end of the day though, the show felt really cheap to me. They didn't screw up the perspective with the volume this episode (at least, I don't think they did,) it's still really really obvious they're in a sparse empty space - almost as obvious as the bluescreen rooms in the prequels.
I am now convinced that as well as building deathstars, building ISDs was also an error. They seem to - with Cap ship firepower - be unable to shoot freighters. Actually now all those inspection missions in Tie Fighter make sense. The Empire weren't trying to kill me, it is just genuinely they can't get the big ships to do anything useful.
Shame Vaders flagship only has 2 troop transports and 1 shuttle onboard.
The_Real_Chris wrote: I am now convinced that as well as building deathstars, building ISDs was also an error. They seem to - with Cap ship firepower - be unable to shoot freighters. Actually now all those inspection missions in Tie Fighter make sense. The Empire weren't trying to kill me, it is just genuinely they can't get the big ships to do anything useful.
Shame Vaders flagship only has 2 troop transports and 1 shuttle onboard.
Except that they can keep up with them at sublight. Yet another slow speed freighter chase... I had been hoping that the previous cinema one was the last. The opening of ANH was epic because it was the absolute end and got quickly to a satisfying conclusion with the boarding.
warboss wrote: The opening of ANH was epic because it was the absolute end and got quickly to a satisfying conclusion with the boarding.
And that last bit is the key part. The OT had some "run away from the star destroyer" moments but they wrapped up reasonably quickly. Here the star destroyer just keeps shooting as the freighter barely dodges and it just never ends. It all went on long enough that I had actually forgotten they were being shot at, and even for a hero ship that's just stupid.
The_Real_Chris wrote: I am now convinced that as well as building deathstars, building ISDs was also an error. They seem to - with Cap ship firepower - be unable to shoot freighters. Actually now all those inspection missions in Tie Fighter make sense. The Empire weren't trying to kill me, it is just genuinely they can't get the big ships to do anything useful.
Shame Vaders flagship only has 2 troop transports and 1 shuttle onboard.
The Star Destroyer actually has a full complement of TIEs, but Vader only bought gas for a fiver.
Nehekhara lives! Sort of!
Why is the rum always gone?
Vader wouldn't have any way to know that the ship they were pursuing had hyperdrive trouble. If he's chasing them down on the assumption that they could go to light speed at any moment he was probably taking a chance on his crew being able to guess their destination based on the vector and making the kill in the next system - which he probably wouldn't have been able to do if the destroyer had to spend time recovering ties before departing.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/06/22 17:17:51
Even without the TIEs the star destroyer's own guns should have been able to finish it off. When we see Han in the OT running from star destroyers it's desperation time, the shields can only take a few hits before stuff starts failing and destruction is imminent. But this random freighter can somehow survive an extended chase while everyone calmly has their tearful goodbyes, Obi Wan takes the time to try calling his old boss for advice, and the crew calmly works to fix the broken hyperdrive. It's a complete miss on pacing and plausibility.
Vader wouldn't have any way to know that the ship they were pursuing had hyperdrive trouble. If he's chasing them down on the assumption that they could go to light speed at any moment he was probably taking a chance on his crew being able to guess their destination based on the vector and making the kill in the next system - which he probably wouldn't have been able to do if the destroyer had to spend time recovering ties before departing.
Doesn't track. Vader wouldn't give a dead womp rat about 'recovering Ties,' especially while chasing Kenobi.
CadianSgtBob wrote: Even without the TIEs the star destroyer's own guns should have been able to finish it off. When we see Han in the OT running from star destroyers it's desperation time, the shields can only take a few hits before stuff starts failing and destruction is imminent. But this random freighter can somehow survive an extended chase while everyone calmly has their tearful goodbyes, Obi Wan takes the time to try calling his old boss for advice, and the crew calmly works to fix the broken hyperdrive. It's a complete miss on pacing and plausibility.
Unlike the Falcon, this freighter clearly is an exceptionally well constructed piece of junk.
Vader wouldn't have any way to know that the ship they were pursuing had hyperdrive trouble. If he's chasing them down on the assumption that they could go to light speed at any moment he was probably taking a chance on his crew being able to guess their destination based on the vector and making the kill in the next system - which he probably wouldn't have been able to do if the destroyer had to spend time recovering ties before departing.
Doesn't track. Vader wouldn't give a dead womp rat about 'recovering Ties,' especially while chasing Kenobi.
Yeah, and if you don't want to play up the callous nature of the Empire, the Imperial navy also has more than one ship, and TIEs don't suddenly implode from loneliness and neglect, and Vader's ship has a phone. Pickup for left behind troops can be arranged even if Vader takes his own ship on an extended cruise.
Nehekhara lives! Sort of!
Why is the rum always gone?
Voss wrote: Doesn't track. Vader wouldn't give a dead womp rat about 'recovering Ties,' especially while chasing Kenobi.
Maybe not, but in his situation if the ship hasn't jumped to light speed yet he's going to consider the reasons why: a technical fault is possible but he just got clowned on because he underestimated Kenobi last episode. The alternative, cautious consideration then, is that they're stalling for some reason, and if there's a chance Kenobi is trying to bait him into wasting some or all of his fighter compliment, Vader's going to want to deduce why rather than underestimate him a second time.
I do agree that would have been the better play though: Stop firing the big guns, launch two two-fighter flight elements to pick apart its engines, and if the freighter bugs out chase after it telling the tie pilots to go back to the planet and touch down and wait for rescue.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Geifer wrote: Yeah, and if you don't want to play up the callous nature of the Empire, the Imperial navy also has more than one ship, and TIEs don't suddenly implode from loneliness and neglect, and Vader's ship has a phone. Pickup for left behind troops can be arranged even if Vader takes his own ship on an extended cruise.
Ideally this is the reason the star destroyers should be operating in pairs with a tender fleet of support craft - in fact a gozanti would be enough to ensure the ties wouldn't be stranded but maybe they forgot to pack them in the rush?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/06/22 18:00:10
Ugh, the ending part with Reva was dumb as usual. Pretty much no explanation for how she survived the gut wound besides "sith hate stronk". With how little development she has, her subplot really seems rushed and unearned with her heelturn, I really would have preferred if Owen ended up shooting her in the head when she was talking with Obi-Wan. Seems like a really bad set up for her to have her own spin-off show, so hopefully the generally bad reception to the show makes them second guess or deter her from being a main lead.
Also, I get that Obi-Wan got the absolution he was looking for from Anakin, but is there a specific reason why he lets him live....again? Besides for canon reasons? I thought at the very least Vader would end up getting back up that prevents Obi Wan from delivering the finishing blow.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/06/22 18:03:46
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