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Bobthehero wrote: It was still a dangerous Empire, where its foot soldiers and pilots were threats to the good guys who didn't have plot. Lately it's been almost comedic how utterly incapable it is at the moment.
Exactly. Yeah, the main characters don't die unless required by the plot because that's what main characters do but if you aren't a main character the Empire is very much a threat. The very first scene in Star Wars is the rebel ship getting run down and boarded with all its crew being killed or captured, rebels get butchered by the hundreds at Hoth, every space battle has rebel fighters being blown away by TIEs and only a handful of rebels surviving, etc. The feeling you get from it is that the main characters are surviving because they're incredible badasses, not because the enemy is a bunch of 10 year olds LARPing as bad guys. Now apparently the only way even a minor background character can die is an angry woman throwing a box at him.
There are deaths of the style of the crew of the Tantive IV all the time; we just mentally filter them out as we get older and a little more cynical to the ways of storytelling. I'm trying to think of signficant characters that are killed by the empire over the entire trilogy and honestly all I can think of is like.... Owen and Beru? Ben, technically?
Gert wrote: Sorry, are we talking about the Empire being portrayed as incompetent? The same Empire that lost its super important battle station on its (as of then) second mission? The Empire that failed to capture any member of Rebel command at Hoth and let almost everyone escape? The Empire that consistently lost to freighters and fighters that it outclassed at almost every opportunity? The Empire that lost the Galactic Civil War? That Empire?
Yes? I don't see how that changes my point. When SW first came out and was limited to mainly the original trilogy, the Empire was still new and intimidating at least from an aesthetic standpoint and we didn't have the entire picture of how the Empire came to be and held power for the time it did (this only really started happening once the EU machine started rolling with books/comics and the prequels were being made). At the time it was mostly centered around Luke and his relationship with Vader, given the Hero's Journey was a big part of the overarching story, which meant that what little we did see of the Empire was mostly window dressing for the most part. For me, it was RoTJ where the Empire being a bunch of mooks started kicking in, since seeing Ewoks kill Stormtroopers rather than the originally planned Wookies was jarring. Now I'm willing to forgive some of this at the beginning because I get a lot of what Star Wars was about is mainly it being a franchise to sell things, and Ewoks are a much more marketable item than Wookies, but if you're now establishing a clear sense of "canon" like Disney is versus the Wild West of SWEU content that could range to terrible fanfiction to interesting worldbuilding, you expect at least some type of cohesiveness of addressing the Empire as being held back by internal power struggles by Moffs trying to undermine one another in front of the Emperor, thereby preventing a unified approach against the rebellion like most totalitarian regimes, rather than just being useless in general.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/08/01 20:41:52
Grimskul wrote: For me, it was RoTJ where the Empire being a bunch of mooks started kicking in, since seeing Ewoks kill Stormtroopers rather than the originally planned Wookies was jarring.
I just want to note here that even with the ewoks it wasn't that bad yet. Yeah, they're kind of silly and played for laughs a bit but it's made very clear that after the initial surprise of the ambush the stormtroopers quickly recover and start gunning down ewoks. The battle is won by heroes doing hero things and if you aren't a hero you have a high chance of ending up dead if you go up against the Empire. And the simultaneous space battle is played completely straight. Rebel fighters are casually blown away by TIEs, rebel battleships are one-shotted by the death star as nothing more than emotional manipulation against Luke, etc. By the end of the battle the rebels are in desperation mode, flying into certain death to buy a little more time for a miracle to happen. So yeah, you can see the origins of the problem, but even in ROTJ they had the sense to not let it take over entirely.
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Voss wrote: Sure it does. That's where the cavalry charge comes from.
Exhibit #34590 in "why the sequels are non-canon fanfiction".
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/08/01 22:57:32
One of their light walkers carried a weapon of lethal effect. It fired a form of ultra-high velocity projectile. I saw one of our tanks after having been hit by it. There was a small hole punched in either flank - one the projectile's entry point, the other its exit. The tiny munition had passed through the vehicle with such speed that everything within the hull not welded down had been sucked out through the exit hole. Including the crew. We never identified their bodies, for all that remained of them was a red stain upon the ground, extending some twenty metres from the wreck.
I don't think it's an Empire problem. It's an overall current SW problem.
Go and watch the (abysmal) finale for Book of Boba Fett. The Pikes only manage to kill two of the faceless villagers (the same one, actually, as that extra dies twice!). Their giant huge feth off mega-destroyer droids hit nothing but the Rancor (who just gets angrier) all episode. The droids' weapons can't even penetrate the wall the villagers spend half the episode hiding behind. The only time the main characters get hit is when the enemy nails them right on their completely invincible armour. Hell, the only halfway effective shot fired by the bad guys was Cad Bane from the previous episode, and he only managed to kill one of his two targets.
It's one thing to joke about Stormtrooper accuracy being a cliche. It's another altogether when you realise that all bad guys seem incapable of doing anything in a firefight.
One of their light walkers carried a weapon of lethal effect. It fired a form of ultra-high velocity projectile. I saw one of our tanks after having been hit by it. There was a small hole punched in either flank - one the projectile's entry point, the other its exit. The tiny munition had passed through the vehicle with such speed that everything within the hull not welded down had been sucked out through the exit hole. Including the crew. We never identified their bodies, for all that remained of them was a red stain upon the ground, extending some twenty metres from the wreck.
For those saying the Empire keeps getting portrayed as incompetent, have you watched Rebels? It perfectly shows the struggles of proper officers like Tarkin, Kallus, Pryce, and Thrawn against those who are in it for the fun of abusing people or for personal glory. Arrogance is the hallmark of the Empire, it's why the Navy never fully adapted to anti-Rebel tactics.
But more to the point, have you considered that the Empire is incompetent because it's a fascist system where people get promoted by being sycophants or thugs and are kept in line out of fear? There will be some that perform despite the system (Veers, Thrawn, Piett) and there will be many more who thrive under the poor management and leadership the Empire is based on (Ozzle, Aresko, Grint, Constantine). The Empire loses the Galactic Civil War because the officers and politicians believe that they will always win, despite evidence to the contrary. They rely on fear and violence to keep people in line but don't adapt when fear isn't enough and violence doesn't quell the uprisings.
Almost like it's telling you that fascist authoritarian systems are doomed to fail.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/08/01 23:47:15
Besides, my argument, at least, has nothing to do with fascism or politics or whatever, it's purely that I am more threatened by a bunch of day one recruits who get panic attacks when a sergeant shouts at them to change clothes fast than I am by the Empire footsoldiers, and having ridiculously incompetent enemies in a series ruins it overall, because the heroes accomplished nothing, spent no efforts and never overcame any sorts of odds, all they did was fight against some dumbasses who would miss the entire planet if their aimed at their feet. It makes the universe poorer and totally unenjoyable.
Voss wrote: 'Don't worry about fascism, its incompetent and doomed to fail' is a terrible message.
Take your enemies seriously.
I'd argue the message is "Authoritarianism leads to failure and inevitably puts incompetent sycophants in power".
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Bobthehero wrote: Besides, my argument, at least, has nothing to do with fascism or politics or whatever, it's purely that I am more threatened by a bunch of day one recruits who get panic attacks when a sergeant shouts at them to change clothes fast than I am by the Empire footsoldiers, and having ridiculously incompetent enemies in a series ruins it overall, because the heroes accomplished nothing, spent no efforts and never overcame any sorts of odds, all they did was fight against some dumbasses who would miss the entire planet if their aimed at their feet. It makes the universe poorer and totally unenjoyable.
Your argument is that the Empire has been made out to be incompetent only after Rogue One which is utter tosh.
The Empire has one victory in ANH, a couple in Empire and then just flat out loses entirely in RotJ. Oh yeah the Rebels lose a lot of fighters during the attack on the Death Star and in return the Empire loses the Death Star.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/08/02 01:02:38
They lose, yes, bad guys gotta lose after all, but the good guys suffer losses, as well, the new shows don't have that, and Rebels has the worst scene of all with that jedi dude standing in the open and the Stormtroopers just... miss him for 2-3 seconds and then get told to hold fire. It's fething awful, far worse than the Ewoks.
Like, I know Luke's going to blow up the Death Star in ANH, but every time I rewatch the end, I always get the tension of how much danger he's in. With how nearly everyone arounds him die.
Gert wrote: Almost like it's telling you that fascist authoritarian systems are doomed to fail.
Which is why all the best WWII movies show the Nazis as incompetent clowns who can't hit anything and are rounded up by the heroes to be put in time out to learn from their mistakes.
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Bobthehero wrote: Like, I know Luke's going to blow up the Death Star in ANH, but every time I rewatch the end, I always get the tension of how much danger he's in. With how nearly everyone arounds him die.
Exactly. One of Luke's wingmen is damaged and has to break off, his childhood best friend dies to buy him a few seconds longer to get the shot off, his droid co-pilot is killed, and Vader has a lock on him with his finger about to hit the trigger. Yeah, he's the protagonist and the heroes have to find a way to win in the end, but the Empire has clearly pushed him to the edge and only Han's change of heart saves him and allows him to destroy the death star. And that's just the final trench run. Prior to that two previous attempts end with all three ships shot down, multiple rebels die in the dogfight above the trench, and even Luke takes a near-fatal hit. There's never a point where you think "nah, these guys aren't in any danger".
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/08/02 01:37:05
One of their light walkers carried a weapon of lethal effect. It fired a form of ultra-high velocity projectile. I saw one of our tanks after having been hit by it. There was a small hole punched in either flank - one the projectile's entry point, the other its exit. The tiny munition had passed through the vehicle with such speed that everything within the hull not welded down had been sucked out through the exit hole. Including the crew. We never identified their bodies, for all that remained of them was a red stain upon the ground, extending some twenty metres from the wreck.
Voss wrote: 'Don't worry about fascism, its incompetent and doomed to fail' is a terrible message.
Take your enemies seriously.
I'd argue the message is "Authoritarianism leads to failure and inevitably puts incompetent sycophants in power".
Exactly. You're assuming the that incompetence is inevitable and such governments always fail. The implication there is that no action is necessary- it will fall of its own accord. That's a terrible assumption and message.
Voss wrote: 'Don't worry about fascism, its incompetent and doomed to fail' is a terrible message.
Take your enemies seriously.
I'd argue the message is "Authoritarianism leads to failure and inevitably puts incompetent sycophants in power".
Exactly. You're assuming the that incompetence is inevitable and such governments always fail. The implication there is that no action is necessary- it will fall of its own accord. That's a terrible assumption and message.
Legit. Why would you want to promote the idea of complacency and that it doesn't require any real effort for change to happen against evil regimes?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/08/02 02:35:02
Gert wrote: Almost like it's telling you that fascist authoritarian systems are doomed to fail.
Which is why all the best WWII movies show the Nazis as incompetent clowns who can't hit anything and are rounded up by the heroes to be put in time out to learn from their mistakes.
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Bobthehero wrote: Like, I know Luke's going to blow up the Death Star in ANH, but every time I rewatch the end, I always get the tension of how much danger he's in. With how nearly everyone arounds him die.
Exactly. One of Luke's wingmen is damaged and has to break off, his childhood best friend dies to buy him a few seconds longer to get the shot off, his droid co-pilot is killed, and Vader has a lock on him with his finger about to hit the trigger. Yeah, he's the protagonist and the heroes have to find a way to win in the end, but the Empire has clearly pushed him to the edge and only Han's change of heart saves him and allows him to destroy the death star. And that's just the final trench run. Prior to that two previous attempts end with all three ships shot down, multiple rebels die in the dogfight above the trench, and even Luke takes a near-fatal hit. There's never a point where you think "nah, these guys aren't in any danger".
Not true at all. 7 year old me, sitting there in that theater all those years ago, had no doubt that the main characters would survive*. I knew Luke wasn't going to get shot down. The only question was how was he going to get out of this? But it was pretty easy for 7 year old me to guess that Han & Chewie would ride in & save the day.....
People with no name? Random fighter pilots? Misc people like Luke's aunt & uncle? Oh yeah, bunches them will die. But not the main characters.
How did I know this? Because that's how the old Flash Gordon & Buck Roger's serials + who knows how many Westerns I'd seen by that point worked.
*I think Ben getting cut down sorta surprised me.
But it was pretty well telegraphed that he wasn't really going to make it.
ccs wrote: 7 year old me, sitting there in that theater all those years ago, had no doubt that the main characters would survive*.
Well yes, because that's true of almost every movie. The point is that if you set aside out-of-universe meta knowledge about things like "the main character always survives" it's a high-tension moment where the movie is clearly showing the hero in desperation mode, moments from joining everyone else in death and failure. Compare that to the Rebels clip posted earlier. There's no tension, the shots are all missing, and the characters don't even seem to care that they're being "shot at". And then the main character casually stands up in front of the stormtroopers at point blank range and calmly walks towards them without taking a single hit.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/08/02 04:42:50
One of their light walkers carried a weapon of lethal effect. It fired a form of ultra-high velocity projectile. I saw one of our tanks after having been hit by it. There was a small hole punched in either flank - one the projectile's entry point, the other its exit. The tiny munition had passed through the vehicle with such speed that everything within the hull not welded down had been sucked out through the exit hole. Including the crew. We never identified their bodies, for all that remained of them was a red stain upon the ground, extending some twenty metres from the wreck.
Gert wrote: For those saying the Empire keeps getting portrayed as incompetent, have you watched Rebels?
It perfectly shows the struggles of proper officers like Tarkin, Kallus, Pryce, and Thrawn against those who are in it for the fun of abusing people or for personal glory. Arrogance is the hallmark of the Empire, it's why the Navy never fully adapted to anti-Rebel tactics.
But more to the point, have you considered that the Empire is incompetent because it's a fascist system where people get promoted by being sycophants or thugs and are kept in line out of fear? There will be some that perform despite the system (Veers, Thrawn, Piett) and there will be many more who thrive under the poor management and leadership the Empire is based on (Ozzle, Aresko, Grint, Constantine). The Empire loses the Galactic Civil War because the officers and politicians believe that they will always win, despite evidence to the contrary. They rely on fear and violence to keep people in line but don't adapt when fear isn't enough and violence doesn't quell the uprisings.
Almost like it's telling you that fascist authoritarian systems are doomed to fail.
^^^ This guy gets it.
However, that doesn't mean they will not do a heckuva lot of damage and destruction in the process, and last a long, long time.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/08/02 17:31:20
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The Emperor doesn’t want ambitious folk too near him. He wants toadies, lick spittles and crawly little bumlicks who rely on him for promotion. That gives him greater control, relatively little upper echelon conflict (at least aimed at him. The rest can stab each other in the back for all he cares) and no-one to really oppose his plans.
Consider his decision to develop and fund The Death Star and Super Star Destroyers over projects like the (demonstrably far more valuable against the Rebellion’s preferred tactics) TIE Defender.
Rebels and Rogue One show us various parties within The Empire squabbling over project funding. That is by design, not incompetence.
I mean….without providing specific examples, look at Real World Totalitarian States. Lord knows there’s enough of them. Soon as the Head Honcho holding it altogether snuffs it? Chaos ensues as those in high positions, often raised up solely for nepotism, singularly fail to replicate their predecessor’s successes.
ccs wrote: 7 year old me, sitting there in that theater all those years ago, had no doubt that the main characters would survive*.
Well yes, because that's true of almost every movie. The point is that if you set aside out-of-universe meta knowledge about things like "the main character always survives" it's a high-tension moment where the movie is clearly showing the hero in desperation mode, moments from joining everyone else in death and failure. Compare that to the Rebels clip posted earlier. There's no tension, the shots are all missing, and the characters don't even seem to care that they're being "shot at". And then the main character casually stands up in front of the stormtroopers at point blank range and calmly walks towards them without taking a single hit.
Kid’s Show Demonstrates Heroes With Ridiculous Plot Armour.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/08/02 17:29:30
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To me, simple focus on good ultimately prevailing over evil is one of the few things that raise Star Wars up in our "post-modern" age of relativism and anti-heroes.
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Or at least make it volcanic sand or magma like Mustafar.
No, no. I'm drawing a line. They have a galaxy full of livable planets. People in the SW universe need to live on planets that are relatively safe and reasonable for their species. No endless deserts, no artic, no constantly storm-tossed oceans, just nice, friendly and temperate. I know we've had glimpses from time to time over the years, but seriously. Have a nice mid-sized city near a river, farms in the hinterland and a open forest on the horizon. Someplace people would actually live.
This is the perfect series to see people with unfortunately boring lives. 36 hour a week office job, 2.5 kids and some sort of genespliced cat-dog hybrid as a pet. Settled down with the family, just living their lives.
Even if only to have it torn apart by the cruel hand of the Empire so we can see what pushes normal people to a galaxy-scale Rebellion, rather than keeping their heads down and hoping It Won't Happen Here.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/08/03 03:29:12
Plot Twist: Everything we've seen is from the first episode. At the end of the first episode, as he's trying to escape, Cassian Andor has to make an emergency hyperspace jump and crash lands on...
... Tatooine!
He then gets involved in the rough'n'tumble goings on of a small local tavern known as 'The Volume', and everything takes place within this "volume" for the remainder of the series.
Not true at all. 7 year old me, sitting there in that theater all those years ago, had no doubt that the main characters would survive*. I knew Luke wasn't going to get shot down. The only question was how was he going to get out of this? But it was pretty easy for 7 year old me to guess that Han & Chewie would ride in & save the day.....
People with no name? Random fighter pilots? Misc people like Luke's aunt & uncle? Oh yeah, bunches them will die. But not the main characters.
How did I know this? Because that's how the old Flash Gordon & Buck Roger's serials + who knows how many Westerns I'd seen by that point worked.
*I think Ben getting cut down sorta surprised me.
But it was pretty well telegraphed that he wasn't really going to make it.
If requirement for bad guys not be incompetent is for heroes die and bad guys win...well all bad guys are always going to be incompetent. Nobody can make movie where bad guys AREN'T incompetent because guess what? Movies never end with bad guys winning.
Easy E wrote: To me, simple focus on good ultimately prevailing over evil is one of the few things that raise Star Wars up in our "post-modern" age of relativism and anti-heroes.
This guy gets it. Star Wars is uncomplicated, that's part of it's charm, in a world where it seems everything has to be all confusing etc. SW is unapoogeticly uncomplicated.
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
Or at least make it volcanic sand or magma like Mustafar.
No, no. I'm drawing a line. They have a galaxy full of livable planets. People in the SW universe need to live on planets that are relatively safe and reasonable for their species. No endless deserts, no artic, no constantly storm-tossed oceans, just nice, friendly and temperate. I know we've had glimpses from time to time over the years, but seriously. Have a nice mid-sized city near a river, farms in the hinterland and a open forest on the horizon. Someplace people would actually live.
This is the perfect series to see people with unfortunately boring lives. 36 hour a week office job, 2.5 kids and some sort of genespliced cat-dog hybrid as a pet. Settled down with the family, just living their lives.
Even if only to have it torn apart by the cruel hand of the Empire so we can see what pushes normal people to a galaxy-scale Rebellion, rather than keeping their heads down and hoping It Won't Happen Here.
I wouldn't object to seeing the sand of the tropical beaches on Glee Anselm. One of my favorite parts of Rogue One is Scarif. It just looks pretty.
Otherwise agreed. I think the show would also benefit from leaving behind the Outer Rim for the most part. If you're going to spy somewhere, spy where there's interesting stuff to be learned.
Easy E wrote: To me, simple focus on good ultimately prevailing over evil is one of the few things that raise Star Wars up in our "post-modern" age of relativism and anti-heroes.
This guy gets it. Star Wars is uncomplicated, that's part of it's charm, in a world where it seems everything has to be all confusing etc. SW is unapoogeticly uncomplicated.
Man, I'm glad Han didn't shoot first and Luke didn't murder those two Gamorreans that inconvenienced him. I too prefer my Star Wars firmly black and white and unapologetically uncomplicated.
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Geifer wrote: Man, I'm glad Han didn't shoot first and Luke didn't murder those two Gamorreans that inconvenienced him. I too prefer my Star Wars firmly black and white and unapologetically uncomplicated.
But stormtroopers are literally faceless! Not people!
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