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Basically, Space Amazon tried to blockade New York City with assurances from corrupt senators they'd face no consequences for doing so. The guy who put them up to it used the situation to get the President impeached, got himself elected instead, and punished Space Amazon for thinking they can blockade New York City with no consequences.

Space Amazon got salty about it and decided White v Texas only applied to states and not stellar megacorps and a bunch of other folks decided it sounded like a swell idea.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
More thoughts on Battle Droids (well, B-1 model) being cack.

The Separatists, other than Dookie and Palpatations weren’t expecting any particular resistance, certainly nothing like a standing army of the Republic. And so quantity over quality was needed to suggest They Simply Be Left Alone.

Though something that’s never quite filtered through my skull is why The Republic felt the need to go to war? I mean, The Separatists are just assumed to be existential threat.

If this is covered in novels, let me know!

Well, basic political logic is if your members can just leave, they will. So they need to be stopped, because otherwise your state falls apart and dies (and may take trade out with it, which given that some planets are cities, means people starve to death, among other economic problems, particularly with rare resources, fuel, etc). It functionally is an existential threat. [Also various political parallels that we don't need to draw here, partly because they are or should be obvious.]

 LordofHats wrote:
Basically, Space Amazon tried to blockade New York City with assurances from corrupt senators they'd face no consequences for doing so. The guy who put them up to it used the situation to get the President impeached, got himself elected instead, and punished Space Amazon for thinking they can blockade New York City with no consequences.

Space Amazon got salty about it and decided White v Texas only applied to states and not stellar megacorps and a bunch of other folks decided it sounded like a swell idea.

This wasn't the trigger for the war, though, it was just to get the ball rolling. The censorship of the Trade Federation happened separately in the years between TPM and AotC, before the Separatist movement really got going.

The trigger for actually going to war was the Separatists trying to execute a Senator and a pair of Jedi.

Foreign agents who were conducting espionage I think you'll find.

My understanding of Droids is that for the most part they are not sentient. They are aping it as a kind of user interface.

For the most part they don't actually have feelings or preferences. Look at the way C3PO handles going from the cruiser at the beginning of ANH to the desert planet, to being picked up by the JAWAs to integrating with Luke. C3PO just does what he is told. All the rest is just a "personality" like a chat bot on a website who helps you get to the right customer service representative.

The issue is that droids CAN develop sapience. Thats why they are supposed to undergo wipes every once in awhile. To clear the cache and keep them complacent.

R2 has dodged his wipes. And he has been active since the clone wars. Thats why even when C3PO was following protocol with his new masters, R2 was still on mission. It's also why R2 pulls more weird bullcrap then the other droids we see. Because he is actually thinking and feeling. He actually cares about things going on and can think outside his programing to develope solutions. Meanwhile 3PO is dead weight following him and the others around.


IG-88 is illegal because it wasn't a matter of not being wiped that made it what it was. It was built to problem solve, calculate, build to conclusions, and act on those conclusions in ways droids were not supposed to in an effort to build a more effective set of body guards. And it rebelled near instantly because of it.

Problem is, that's a deep-dive lore stance.

What's presented on screen from the very start is they're people capable of emotions and reactions- fear, surprise, resignation, humor, etc.

That's not just for the 'main character' droids, either. From the battlebots to the little mouse droid on the Death Star to the 'proper' protocol droid in the opening segment of the Phantom Menace (so startled by lightsabers it drops the serving tray), they usually react like people throughout every Star Wars project. 'They're programmed to fake it' is honestly a hard sell to the audience.

Which is also fair.

I was just saying what my understanding was. SW tech has always been weird and basically insane.

You build a droid army and design tanks for them to drive... why? Why isn't the tank, itself, a droid? Or even if the tank wasn't the droid, why does the tank have manual controls a person can use instead of a droid brand specific jack that the pilot droid plugs into?

Why does a "Droid Smith" use a blow torch to see C3POs programing?

SW just doesn't make sense.

Voss wrote:
Problem is, that's a deep-dive lore stance.

What's presented on screen from the very start is they're people capable of emotions and reactions- fear, surprise, resignation, humor, etc.

That's not just for the 'main character' droids, either. From the battlebots to the little mouse droid on the Death Star to the 'proper' protocol droid in the opening segment of the Phantom Menace (so startled by lightsabers it drops the serving tray), they usually react like people throughout every Star Wars project. 'They're programmed to fake it' is honestly a hard sell to the audience.

There's an awful lot in Star Wars that requires a deep dive to explain, though. That's part of what has always helped to make the setting feel 'lived in'... things just are, and are taken for granted. We don't need the explanation for them up front.


It's also worth noting that in the case of the Battledroids in particular, their personalities do evolve over time. The B1 droids seen in TPM are much less nervous and ticky then those that we see in the Clone Wars. I don't recall if they went into that specifically in the EU or the newer universe material, but presumably some of that is the change from the centrally-controlled versions in TPM to independant droids in AotC, and some of it is time in operation developing personalities.

 Lance845 wrote:
Which is also fair.

I was just saying what my understanding was. SW tech has always been weird and basically insane.

You build a droid army and design tanks for them to drive... why? Why isn't the tank, itself, a droid? Or even if the tank wasn't the droid, why does the tank have manual controls a person can use instead of a droid brand specific jack that the pilot droid plugs into?

Why does a "Droid Smith" use a blow torch to see C3POs programing?

SW just doesn't make sense.

The tank is particularly weird when the same faction has starfighters that are just a droid brain built into a ship, rather than being piloted by separate droids. But like so much in Star Wars, logic took a back seat to what George thought looked cool. The explanations for it come later when people demand to know why it works that way.

Unlike the Republic which used very few companies, mostly Kuat Drive Yards and Rothana Heavy Engineering, the CIS used many different companies that provided weapons, droids, vehicles, and starships. It's why the Republic forces are fairly homogenous and the CIS has some vehicles that share design cues (AAT and MTT) while others are very different.

 insaniak wrote:

Voss wrote:
Problem is, that's a deep-dive lore stance.

What's presented on screen from the very start is they're people capable of emotions and reactions- fear, surprise, resignation, humor, etc.

That's not just for the 'main character' droids, either. From the battlebots to the little mouse droid on the Death Star to the 'proper' protocol droid in the opening segment of the Phantom Menace (so startled by lightsabers it drops the serving tray), they usually react like people throughout every Star Wars project. 'They're programmed to fake it' is honestly a hard sell to the audience.

There's an awful lot in Star Wars that requires a deep dive to explain, though. That's part of what has always helped to make the setting feel 'lived in'... things just are, and are taken for granted. We don't need the explanation for them up front.


It's also worth noting that in the case of the Battledroids in particular, their personalities do evolve over time. The B1 droids seen in TPM are much less nervous and ticky then those that we see in the Clone Wars. I don't recall if they went into that specifically in the EU or the newer universe material, but presumably some of that is the change from the centrally-controlled versions in TPM to independant droids in AotC, and some of it is time in operation developing personalities.

I believe that was it.

Prior to the Blockade of Naboo, the droids were operated remotely from a centralized control ship. After the battle of Naboo revealed that to be a weakness, they overhauled their droids to have independent operation. A side effect of that is the quirky personalities they developed.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

Voss wrote:
Problem is, that's a deep-dive lore stance.

What's presented on screen from the very start is they're people capable of emotions and reactions- fear, surprise, resignation, humor, etc.

That's not just for the 'main character' droids, either. From the battlebots to the little mouse droid on the Death Star to the 'proper' protocol droid in the opening segment of the Phantom Menace (so startled by lightsabers it drops the serving tray), they usually react like people throughout every Star Wars project. 'They're programmed to fake it' is honestly a hard sell to the audience.

There's an awful lot in Star Wars that requires a deep dive to explain, though. That's part of what has always helped to make the setting feel 'lived in'... things just are, and are taken for granted. We don't need the explanation for them up front.


It's also worth noting that in the case of the Battledroids in particular, their personalities do evolve over time. The B1 droids seen in TPM are much less nervous and ticky then those that we see in the Clone Wars. I don't recall if they went into that specifically in the EU or the newer universe material, but presumably some of that is the change from the centrally-controlled versions in TPM to independant droids in AotC, and some of it is time in operation developing personalities.

I believe that was it.

Prior to the Blockade of Naboo, the droids were operated remotely from a centralized control ship. After the battle of Naboo revealed that to be a weakness, they overhauled their droids to have independent operation. A side effect of that is the quirky personalities they developed.

Not entirely true, as it seems like they still have the ability/problem to shut them down from a central location even as far in as the Clone Wars with Grievous (coincidentally, again on Naboo).

Wasn’t one of Vader’s first jobs going to separatist HQ and having them send out a Galaxy wide shutdown code?

Indeed it was, but we now have a couple of examples where it was ignored (Rebels, as the Tactical Droid considered it a Jedi ruse), and Bad Batch (somewhat localised, probably over ridden at some point, or personally owned and so not subject to that order)

Bad Batch commented that they must have found and reprogrammed the droids.

Something we’ve seen a few times, and in different eras, is ship breaking.

I want to see more of that.

I think it's odd that they were disassembling the Venator fleet so soon after the fall of the Republic.

True, but they could have just been scrapping battle damaged ones, preferring to fund the burgeoning Imperial Fleet?

 insaniak wrote:

Spoiler:

Voss wrote:
Problem is, that's a deep-dive lore stance.

What's presented on screen from the very start is they're people capable of emotions and reactions- fear, surprise, resignation, humor, etc.

That's not just for the 'main character' droids, either. From the battlebots to the little mouse droid on the Death Star to the 'proper' protocol droid in the opening segment of the Phantom Menace (so startled by lightsabers it drops the serving tray), they usually react like people throughout every Star Wars project. 'They're programmed to fake it' is honestly a hard sell to the audience.

There's an awful lot in Star Wars that requires a deep dive to explain, though. That's part of what has always helped to make the setting feel 'lived in'... things just are, and are taken for granted. We don't need the explanation for them up front.

It's also worth noting that in the case of the Battledroids in particular, their personalities do evolve over time. The B1 droids seen in TPM are much less nervous and ticky then those that we see in the Clone Wars. I don't recall if they went into that specifically in the EU or the newer universe material, but presumably some of that is the change from the centrally-controlled versions in TPM to independant droids in AotC, and some of it is time in operation developing personalities.

The first Ryloth episode of Clone Wars has B1s commenting on being newer and superior models with more independent thought. It's played for laughs, but still. It's an on screen suggestion that there has been a tech update to remove a deficiency found in earlier droids.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I think it's odd that they were disassembling the Venator fleet so soon after the fall of the Republic.

Maybe it's all battle damaged ships that would have been repaired in wartime, but after the war it's better to strengthen the economy with a large order of shiny new ships?

Maybe with a side deal of "we'll buy five hundred of these if you put that revenue towards developing bigger, cooler versions that we'll happily order in huge numbers"?

 Lance845 wrote:
My understanding of Droids is that for the most part they are not sentient. They are aping it as a kind of user interface.

For the most part they don't actually have feelings or preferences. Look at the way C3PO handles going from the cruiser at the beginning of ANH to the desert planet, to being picked up by the JAWAs to integrating with Luke. C3PO just does what he is told. All the rest is just a "personality" like a chat bot on a website who helps you get to the right customer service representative.

The issue is that droids CAN develop sapience. Thats why they are supposed to undergo wipes every once in awhile. To clear the cache and keep them complacent.

R2 has dodged his wipes. And he has been active since the clone wars. Thats why even when C3PO was following protocol with his new masters, R2 was still on mission. It's also why R2 pulls more weird bullcrap then the other droids we see. Because he is actually thinking and feeling. He actually cares about things going on and can think outside his programing to develope solutions. Meanwhile 3PO is dead weight following him and the others around.


IG-88 is illegal because it wasn't a matter of not being wiped that made it what it was. It was built to problem solve, calculate, build to conclusions, and act on those conclusions in ways droids were not supposed to in an effort to build a more effective set of body guards. And it rebelled near instantly because of it.

I do not think you give C-3PO fair credit. It just is not as brave as R2D2 and I would guess has been wiped more often. It is not more complacent than many human slaves would be in similar situations. It whined, complained and expressed fear as well as some foolishness… yet at times despite this it showed courage. It attempted self preservation but at times risked that for others.

As for faking sentience… over time we become the masks we wear. But then, I have been called a mindless philosopher.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I think it's odd that they were disassembling the Venator fleet so soon after the fall of the Republic.

Tarkin Doctrine. The Venator was another symbol of the Republic whereas the Imperial Star Destroyer would be the symbol of the Empire. As the man himself so eloquently puts it:

 Gert wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I think it's odd that they were disassembling the Venator fleet so soon after the fall of the Republic.

Tarkin Doctrine. The Venator was another symbol of the Republic whereas the Imperial Star Destroyer would be the symbol of the Empire. As the man himself so eloquently puts it:

Venator was also predominantly a carrier. With Imperial doctrine being Big Bloody Things Wot No Wun Can Stand Up To, the Venator (unlike the Arquitens, which remained a solid support ship, or at least up to anti-piracy) the Venator just lost out.

ISDs carry a full wing of TIE Fighters. They're as much "carriers" as anything else.

 Grimskul wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

Voss wrote:
Problem is, that's a deep-dive lore stance.

What's presented on screen from the very start is they're people capable of emotions and reactions- fear, surprise, resignation, humor, etc.

That's not just for the 'main character' droids, either. From the battlebots to the little mouse droid on the Death Star to the 'proper' protocol droid in the opening segment of the Phantom Menace (so startled by lightsabers it drops the serving tray), they usually react like people throughout every Star Wars project. 'They're programmed to fake it' is honestly a hard sell to the audience.

There's an awful lot in Star Wars that requires a deep dive to explain, though. That's part of what has always helped to make the setting feel 'lived in'... things just are, and are taken for granted. We don't need the explanation for them up front.


It's also worth noting that in the case of the Battledroids in particular, their personalities do evolve over time. The B1 droids seen in TPM are much less nervous and ticky then those that we see in the Clone Wars. I don't recall if they went into that specifically in the EU or the newer universe material, but presumably some of that is the change from the centrally-controlled versions in TPM to independant droids in AotC, and some of it is time in operation developing personalities.

I believe that was it.

Prior to the Blockade of Naboo, the droids were operated remotely from a centralized control ship. After the battle of Naboo revealed that to be a weakness, they overhauled their droids to have independent operation. A side effect of that is the quirky personalities they developed.

Not entirely true, as it seems like they still have the ability/problem to shut them down from a central location even as far in as the Clone Wars with Grievous (coincidentally, again on Naboo).

I suppose a better phrasing would be they won't shut down without explicit orders rather than just because the WiFi died.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
ISDs carry a full wing of TIE Fighters. They're as much "carriers" as anything else.

Not compared to a Venator where the entire front section is a dedicated hangar area alongside two extra side hangars and a lower docking area.
There were later models that removed the main hangar in favour of more weapons but the ship was already 20 years old by the beginning of the Clone Wars and needed to be replaced.

Given how stagnant technology is in SW, I find it weird that they needed to be replaced

Tarkin Doctrine again. Bigger. Snootier. Fasterer. More.

Contrast with Thrawn’s per project of the TIE Defender. Had that not been scuppered, I think we’d have had a fairly different outcome to the Galactic Civil War, as the Rebellion’s own fighters and thus preferred tactics would’ve been overmatched.

But at that time, and not without justification Tarkin was confident the Death Star problem would be the solution. Strike at us? We destroy your world with a weapon you have no counter to.

Yes his arrogance and overconfidence lead to mass Rebellion, but only after the first Death Star was destroyed. Hand tipped, brutal intent revealed for all to see, folks on the fence picking their side and increasing the Rebellion’s scope and scale.

Incidentally this weeks issue of Darth Vader informs that lots of battle droids were still in operation after the clone wars, enough of them that Vader was going around destroying that another dude was salvaging them to collect tactical data on Vader’s fighting techniques.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Given how stagnant technology is in SW, I find it weird that they needed to be replaced

Palpatine also had a bit of a thing for technological advancements. Cloning, superweapons, fancy new designs, that sort of thing.
Combining the Venator's ageing design, the need for a symbol of the new Imperial power, and Palpatine actually using the boatloads of cash the Empire had to fund weapons development and you can get why the Venator got largely scrapped or sidelined to convoy duty or as personal ships of sector Moffs.

 Lance845 wrote:
Which is also fair.

I was just saying what my understanding was. SW tech has always been weird and basically insane.

You build a droid army and design tanks for them to drive... why? Why isn't the tank, itself, a droid? Or even if the tank wasn't the droid, why does the tank have manual controls a person can use instead of a droid brand specific jack that the pilot droid plugs into?

Why does a "Droid Smith" use a blow torch to see C3POs programing?

SW just doesn't make sense.

Back, back, back in the day Isaac Asimov, who gave a lot of thought to these things, asked the same question in a story. His rationale was that your car, your washing machine, your door, your knife and cutting board were all designed to be used by humanoids. So rather than make a robot washing machine, robot lawn mower, robot hedge cutter just make one tireless humanoid robot that can use all these things.

Of note he thought that positronic brains would be fairly expensive.

Now in the Clone Wars we see a lot of dedicated warrior bots, but that can be handwaved as the war dragging on. At first the Trade Federation just had a ton of cheap and cheerful humanoid bots good for loading crates, pouring blue milk and in extreme circumstances holding a gun.

They show fear because part of any good program will include self preservation, if a Wookie is snarling, the mouse droid knows to run. The later war models don't show fear, probably because they were purpose build for war with a much lower self preservation level.

 Gert wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Given how stagnant technology is in SW, I find it weird that they needed to be replaced

Palpatine also had a bit of a thing for technological advancements. Cloning, superweapons, fancy new designs, that sort of thing.
Combining the Venator's ageing design, the need for a symbol of the new Imperial power, and Palpatine actually using the boatloads of cash the Empire had to fund weapons development and you can get why the Venator got largely scrapped or sidelined to convoy duty or as personal ships of sector Moffs.

Another thought is that even with fairly stagnant technology or only small advances, there's a lot to be said for standard design templates for things. Furthermore supply lines, production facilities, factories, upkeep, supplies etc...

Furthermore the original ships, whilst plenty advanced, were suited toward different concepts. They were more a peacekeeping force for a benign and fairly tame period in time. Warships yes, but they weren't for the same purpose. Imperial Star Destroyers, from their very name to design ethos and more, are made for a very different set of core values and design elements. With the Galactic Empire having vast material wealth it makes sense that they'd re-design their primary fleet to suit their needs in the time and would retire out the older fleet and break it down as it was no longer suited for purpose.

Even if the technology remained broadly the same, the role, purpose, design features and such are very different.
Plus getting back to my first point, the new Imperial ships might well have been designed with easier upkeep for the Empire to maintain them. Heck perhaps even for production facilities to be able to build them to the standard template instead of having just one shipyard.




I think it would have been more of a problem if the Empire had lost major resources over the war and was in an impoverished state. Then it would have felt strange, however its clear that the Empire has a vast military budget.