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nels1031 wrote: Few days ago I learned that the actor playing Sol didn’t speak English before this series. If thats true he’s doing a pretty damn good job.
That's cool.
Slipspace wrote: Decent enough episode this week, with a few more details teased.
Spoiler:
I'm still not clear whether Sol knew it was Mae the whole time. I get that he was emotionally traumatised, but not making that clear isn't helping his character, IMO. I think the whole scenario on Sol's ship was pretty poorly handled - the ship not working properly for...reasons, Mae not just killing Sol at the first opportunity, Sol maybe letting Mae wander around freely, unless he didn't know she was Mae, in which case he's a terrible Jedi. It's all just a little too contrived.
The scenes with Qimir were really good though. The portrayal of the Dark Side philosophy is compellingly done and is a good contrast to what they're trying to show with the Jedi, but not quite succeeding. Just once I'd like for the "kill me, give in to your anger" approach to lead to the villain getting killed, though. Those scenes always feel like a bit of a cheat to me, from the audience's perspective.
With only 2 episodes to go it feels like we're going to have to pack a lot in before the end of the season, which only makes the earlier pacing issues all the more frustrating. It's good that the quality seems to be on an upward trajectory now we have a compelling antagonist.
By and large that's where I'm at with this episode. They have some good ideas for the main story and are reasonably competent at getting them across, but there's also a good bit of unnecessary peripheral WTF stuff. On the bright side, unlike in, say, Obi-Wan, it doesn't have too much of an impact on the main event. That's good enough for me, even if shoddy craft is annoying in the moment.
Spoiler:
On the dark side pitch, it's hard to pull off in Star Wars. Usually the would be apprentice isn't ready to murder someone yet. If they're really so incapable of suppressing their anger to kill the guy that offers them training and power, you run into the problem that being a wise dark side master, they'd a) not pitch it like that to someone volatile or b) sense it coming if they do. Dark side masters being exceptionally strong with the Force puts a cap on what a prospective apprentice can reasonably achieve against the master's will.
Nehekhara lives! Sort of!
Why is the rum always gone?
As am I, but that doesn't let them off the hook for resolving the story of this season in some way. This whole season has been about Mae, Osha and some mysterious event involving the Jedi and the fire. Not resolving that makes the entire season little but filler. I don't mind leaving a few hanging threads for a future season, but you still need to follow through with this season's story.
Showrunner has said that while she would like three seasons, this one will have a clear resolution. Presumably so we're not left with a cliffhanger if it doesn't get renewed.
As am I, but that doesn't let them off the hook for resolving the story of this season in some way. This whole season has been about Mae, Osha and some mysterious event involving the Jedi and the fire. Not resolving that makes the entire season little but filler. I don't mind leaving a few hanging threads for a future season, but you still need to follow through with this season's story.
I agree. But I’m open to a mystery or two being left for future seasons.
Which to be honest is a tricky thing to pull off, because the mysteries need to interesting ones.
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I also heard the showrunners desired three seasons.
Hopefully the season ends at a decent spot given Disney's production timelines might not slot future Acolyte seasons for a while.
On the dark side thing, I feel like the dark siders in Star Wars have always sort of had a leg up on 'evil is cool' in the franchise (applies to the Empire too). Almost anything that takes more than a surface level approach to light/dark for the dark side usually comes out as interesting if nothing else.
Correspondingly the light side tends to start looking silly the harder you try to look at it. Or the balance side or whatever. Having flashbacks to the Ghosts of Mortis trilogy in ye old Clone Wars where Lucas' attempt to try and have depth in the whole thing came out really clumsily.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2024/07/04 14:56:17
Zed wrote: *All statements reflect my opinion at this moment. if some sort of pretty new model gets released (or if I change my mind at random) I reserve the right to jump on any bandwagon at will.
[DCM]
Chief Deputy Sub Assistant Trainee Squig Handling Intern
Possibly.
But, and I appreciate it might not be a common view?
If we get further seasons?
Imagine the flashback being the finale? It could be a strong move, Spesh if E7 sees Qimir bumped off, and the discovery he was the Sith apprentice, for what’s so far been a more interesting take on The Phantom Menace.
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Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Imagine the flashback being the finale? It could be a strong move, Spesh if E7 sees Qimir bumped off, and the discovery he was the Sith apprentice, for what’s so far been a more interesting take on The Phantom Menace.
I'm still not entirely sure they're going for Qimir being a Sith at all. The red lightsaber and the skulking about are certainly clues, but could also be misdirection and the story feels more like they're leaning towards him being something like Baylan and Shin - fallen Jedi, but not Sith.
The way he said it makes it clear he's aware of the Sith and maybe practices some of the ideology, but also like he's not party to the school of Darth Bane and the rule of two.
More like he's someone who decided to go around being a dark sider than someone who was raised sith me thinks. Or maybe he's from a different sect of Sith?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2024/07/05 23:33:55
Correspondingly the light side tends to start looking silly the harder you try to look at it. Or the balance side or whatever. Having flashbacks to the Ghosts of Mortis trilogy in ye old Clone Wars where Lucas' attempt to try and have depth in the whole thing came out really clumsily.
Part of that is the gradual shift in the way Lucas presented the philosophy of the Jedi. The impression I always got from the original trilogy was that it wasn't actually a 'Light Side' and a 'Dark Side'... it was 'The Force' and the Dark Side just eschewed balance and leaned into those aspects of the Force that provided a quick and easy path to power. It wasn't until he started on the Prequels that it codified into distinct 'Light ' and 'Dark' in canon, although the EU had certainly gone that way long before.
Funnily enough, the original version would have made more sense with the whole prophecy of the Chosen One story arc...
That said, I think that having the more binary setup with light and dark makes it easier to write stories where the 'good guys' aren't as good as they appear, and the baddies are similarly not all bad, because you have more defined lines. We as an audience can see when those lines are being crossed, even if the characters in the story can't.
Yeah. Lucas got weird toward the tail end of his ownership of the IP. He seemed to simultaneously want to nuke the EU from orbit, including the EU interpretation of force as a scale, while also kind of not knowing what the Jedi were supposed to stand for; Balance or the light side of the force. Cause he'd play fast and loose with how that was supposed to work.
More recent IP has kind of decided where it wants to stand on that.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2024/07/05 23:36:49
[DCM]
Chief Deputy Sub Assistant Trainee Squig Handling Intern
I dunno how retconny it is, but I kind of like that the Jedi lost their way. Going on about the chosen one that will bring balance, not seeing that “we win, no more Sith” is not in fact balance.
I say retconny as while the dialogue is there for Revenge of the Sith, I suspect it’s the result of bad dialogue that someone has revisited to add some greater context to.
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To me Qimir is actually trying to be a “whole force” user and his line “I don’t know what I am, but you’d call me a Sith” is just aimed at the Jedi dogma, I.E. the Jedi view any force user who doesn’t follow their strict code , particularly if they rely on their emotions, as evil dark siders (which is also an interesting tie-in to the witches).
I think there’s an intriguing implication here that the founding Jedi probably didn’t view emotional force use as “evil”, but just “risky”, so they built the code to minimise that risk. But follow a code for thousands of years and it morphs into “anyone who doesn’t follow our rules is automatically a monster”.
Could also have some interesting tie-ins with Qui-gon and then Yoda’s “living force” approach, which I think was trying to break down some of that dogma.
Zed wrote: *All statements reflect my opinion at this moment. if some sort of pretty new model gets released (or if I change my mind at random) I reserve the right to jump on any bandwagon at will.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Imagine the flashback being the finale? It could be a strong move, Spesh if E7 sees Qimir bumped off, and the discovery he was the Sith apprentice, for what’s so far been a more interesting take on The Phantom Menace.
I'm still not entirely sure they're going for Qimir being a Sith at all. The red lightsaber and the skulking about are certainly clues, but could also be misdirection and the story feels more like they're leaning towards him being something like Baylan and Shin - fallen Jedi, but not Sith.
He does explicitly say he wants "the power of two" so while he may not be of the Sith line of succession he's clearly copied their homework.
Honestly, this episode and the last have felt like a completely different show in a good way. A lot of the prior storytelling weirdness is gone now that its not trying to be a mystery and cut that cast down to the essentials.
I do really like the focus on connecting to the Force through emotion as something inherently Dark Side rather than limited specifically to anger. It kind of presents the Force as an inherently malevolent entity that the Jedi train to access safely.and gives the Dark Side a less juvenile appeal. It won't get explored properly, but its a neat piece of headcannon for me.
I think the writing would actually be better if he were referring to the power of "number two" and he went doo doo in the lake he was going skinny dipping in.
AduroT wrote: Pretty sure the power of two reference was to the twins and whatever they have going on.
I suppose it could be either depending on how much weight you give the twin thing. I'm leaning in the direction of Sith myself. While the twins may be a thing unto themselves, their coven teaches them about and wants them to accept the power of many, as per the cult's doctrine.
Nehekhara lives! Sort of!
Why is the rum always gone?
AduroT wrote: Pretty sure the power of two reference was to the twins and whatever they have going on.
I suppose it could be either depending on how much weight you give the twin thing. I'm leaning in the direction of Sith myself. While the twins may be a thing unto themselves, their coven teaches them about and wants them to accept the power of many, as per the cult's doctrine.
Yeah, I was going with the “Sith” interpretation, mainly because he seems really keen on having an apprentice (an Acolyte, you might say…)
Zed wrote: *All statements reflect my opinion at this moment. if some sort of pretty new model gets released (or if I change my mind at random) I reserve the right to jump on any bandwagon at will.
I’m thinking it’s the Twin thing because we had the witches talking about The Power Of # earlier. To have it phrased the same way I would think it’s gotta be the same thing.
Well, they’ve made episode 3 even dumber, possibly.
Spoiler:
A Wookie with clothes is weird. A clothed Wookie with a what looks to be a metal detector is fething hilarious.
Nothing more to the catastrophic fire of the place than Mae burning the book with explosive results.
None of the witches come out looking good in this, even their mind controlling leader. She’s probably most to blame, by preying on the Padawans desire to go home and it led him to making a rash decision.
The Jedi did nothing wrong, they went back with noble intentions and this was a dumb fething reason to have Torbin kill himself 16 years later.
‘I was going to let her go” Well you should’ve led with that instead of going into shadowform for some reason.
Did Torbin reflect all the arrows back at the witches or did they just bounce when Kelnacca got mind controlled?
The ‘power of many’ against a lone Jedi Master in a mind control battle. The many get merc’d. I guess Mother spikyhead gets stuck in the Sunken Place?
Also, a few posters previously theorizing about episode 3 : No mystery person at the ceremony, confirmed. Like I had said, it turned out to be bad stagecraft, which fits in a show with bad writing, bad acting(though the wretched dialogue doesn’t help) bad storytelling and bad pacing. Just textbook aggressive mediocrity start to finish with 1 episode left. Which is a shame, as there could’ve been something good here.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2024/07/10 07:46:25
"Sometimes the only victory possible is to keep your opponent from winning." - The Emperor, from The Outcast Dead.
"Tell your gods we are coming for them, and that their realms will burn as ours did." -Thostos Bladestorm
[DCM]
Chief Deputy Sub Assistant Trainee Squig Handling Intern
Dude, spoiler tags.
Spoiler:
I basically entirely disagree.
What we have here is a clash of philosophy and a failure to communicate.
Both sides screwed it up. Both sides reacted poorly, entrenched as they are in their position and philosophy.
The Witches wanted the Jedi to leave them be and go away. The Jedi are trying to understand a vergence in the force, in their self appointed role as The Only Force Cult That Can Be Trusted.
There’s also some question as to whether the Witch Cult are all dead. We saw a bunch knocked out, presumably by some kind of feedback when they were exorcised from the Wookiee. But ultimately, it’s only the Mum we can be really confident snuffed it there and then.
As for Sol’s outright murder of the Mum? Ongoing thread of the Jedi not being competent. As if centuries of peace have left them indolent, complacent and unused to stressful situations,
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nels1031 wrote: Well, they’ve made episode 3 even dumber, possibly.
A Wookie with clothes is weird. A clothed Wookie with a what looks to be a metal detector is fething hilarious.
Nothing more to the catastrophic fire of the place than Mae burning the book with explosive results.
None of the witches come out looking good in this, even their mind controlling leader. She’s probably most to blame, by preying on the Padawans desire to go home and it led him to making a rash decision.
The Jedi did nothing wrong, they went back with noble intentions and this was a dumb fething reason to have Torbin kill himself 16 years later.
‘I was going to let her go” Well you should’ve led with that instead of going into shadowform for some reason.
Did Torbin reflect all the arrows back at the witches or did they just bounce when Kelnacca got mind controlled?
The ‘power of many’ against a lone Jedi Master in a mind control battle. The many get merc’d. I guess Mother spikyhead gets stuck in the Sunken Place?
Also, a few posters previously theorizing about episode 3 : No mystery person at the ceremony, confirmed. Like I had said, it turned out to be bad stagecraft, which fits in a show with bad writing, bad acting(though the wretched dialogue doesn’t help) bad storytelling and bad pacing. Just textbook aggressive mediocrity start to finish with 1 episode left. Which is a shame, as there could’ve been something good here.
You continue to watch what you don't enjoy why exactly?
ccs wrote: You continue to watch what you don't enjoy why exactly?
I’m glad you asked, and I’m flattered in your interest in my personal viewing habits. Here are my exact reasons:
1. I still love and enjoy Star Wars, despite the wild inconsistency for the past decade+. Its a big part of my entire lifelong interest in the Sci-fi genre, so I watch all of the live action stuff as a rule. The cartoons are a skip for me, hence why I very very strongly doubt you’ll ever see me either praise or gak on them in this subforum. That aspect/format of Star Wars just doesn’t grab me for some reason.
2. If I start a show, I tend to finish out the season regardless of enjoyment. For a few reasons:
A. It may get better.
B. It might get hilariously worse. “So bad its good” and “Campy” type thing.
C. Allows a fuller picture to praise/criticize and judge if I want to continue watching the series.
As an example, I stopped watching Walking Dead after the season where they killed The Governor and left the prison. I’m not even sure how many more seasons went on after that, I just got bored of it. If nothing substantial moves the plot forward in this season of The Boys, I’ll probably call it quits on that show. To me it seems like that show is treading water.
3. Its easy viewing. Average run time of like 30 minutes tops is a breeze when you are painting or playing a game. Even if it blows ass as this tends to, its over before I know it.
4. I don’t watch much. Currently watching The Acolyte, The Boys, House of the Dragon, and pacing out episodes of The Sympathizer mini-series. The latter 2 are mostly dialogue heavy, slow paced, consistently hour long episodes that demand a much more concentrated viewing. Spaced out over 7 days, its not much TV viewing.
5. IMO, its a cultural event and I want to participate. Star Wars, despite the blows its taken over the years, still dominates pop culture and every new release is a big event. A $180 million spectacle or trainwreck, depending on your enjoyment.
6. I paid for it.
Thanks for reading, I hope you enjoyed this insight into my personal viewing habits!
My bad, the (spoilers) in the thread title makes me think spoilers are allowed. Edited, because I’m a gentleman!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2024/07/10 09:01:21
"Sometimes the only victory possible is to keep your opponent from winning." - The Emperor, from The Outcast Dead.
"Tell your gods we are coming for them, and that their realms will burn as ours did." -Thostos Bladestorm
Well, on the plus side- we got our wookie fight! Seeing him nearly crush a skull was pretty cool. He clearly thought of the lightsabre as a secondary weapon to these hands.
I may have missed it, but I don't think the horned mom was in the exhausted power of many death dogpile. Rather points to her, who started with a massive grudge on her shoulder, as an antagonist. I wonder if she put the Stranger or Mae on their path, though I don't think the series has room to satisfyingly answer those questions.
I really would have preferred this as part of episode 3, or even better, framed as small flashbacks in Sol and Mae's conversation. That was set up to be appropriately dramatic, with a hostile listener, and Sol's halting revelations about how he failed her.
So Sol wasn't running from a shady past at all. He was just incompetent and bungled a mission.
Force Shadow form was pretty awesome. I'd love to find out what it was, and what it's intended to be used for.
Klawz-Ramming is a subset of citrus fruit?
Gwar- "And everyone wants a bigger Spleen!"
Mercurial wrote:
I admire your aplomb and instate you as Baron of the Seas and Lord Marshall of Privateers.
Orkeosaurus wrote:Star Trek also said we'd have X-Wings by now. We all see how that prediction turned out.
Orkeosaurus, on homophobia, the nature of homosexuality, and the greatness of George Takei.
English doesn't borrow from other languages. It follows them down dark alleyways and mugs them for loose grammar.
[DCM]
Chief Deputy Sub Assistant Trainee Squig Handling Intern
Something I’m enjoying, which others may not?
Spoiler:
The stakes so far? Are really low. This is a very personal story, with thus far seemingly no great impact on the wider galaxy.
And it’s a tragic one. Inability/unwillingness to trust and clearly communicate, and things went horribly wrong when there absolutely was another way.
Of course, we’ve one last episode to go, and the promise of potentially further tales, so the scope could still widen.
I’m still intrigued by who Qimir actually is, and where his beef with the Jedi Order truly stems from.
And as I’ve said before in this thread? Not knowing where the tale might end, as we’re in uncharted waters in terms of the wider setting is very refreshing. Could Sol go renegade? Will anyone survive?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2024/07/10 12:06:55
Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?
[spoiled]The stakes so far? Are really low. This is a very personal story, with thus far seemingly no great impact on the wider galaxy.
And it’s a tragic one. Inability/unwillingness to trust and clearly communicate, and things went horribly wrong when there absolutely was another way.
Of course, we’ve one last episode to go, and the promise of potentially further tales, so the scope could still widen.
I’m still intrigued by who Qimir actually is, and where his beef with the Jedi Order truly stems from.
And as I’ve said before in this thread? Not knowing where the tale might end, as we’re in uncharted waters in terms of the wider setting is very refreshing. Could Sol go renegade? Will anyone survive?
Dude, spoiler tags
But yeah, I have been enjoying it for those reasons you mention. Not every Star Wars story needs to be some massive galaxy threatening plot.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2024/07/10 12:07:47
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
The fire still makes no sense. Was the entire place made from explodium? Qimir still has no explanation, despite his comments in a previous episode suggesting Sol should know who he is. I believe we only have one episode left, which will presumably have to resolve that question and do something to resolve at least a part of the twins' story.
The Jedi do indeed continue to come out poorly from this, but it feels more due to stupidity than any philosophical conflict. In fact, the Council apparently makes the "correct" call here by telling them to leave the twins alone, which somewhat undermines any philosophical conflict. As does the Mother deciding to honour Osha's wishes. As does the behaviour of the entire rest of the Coven who basically go full on Evil(tm) at the first opportunity. Then there's the failure to notice a massive inhabited structure within walking distance of them. Do they not have satellites and planetary surveying in Star Wars?
I also don't see what Torbin's problem is here. Sure, he was manipulated in a way that backfired for everyone involved, but what did he actually do? The fire was started by Mae. He killed nobody. Kalnaka(sp?) was mind controlled in a much more devastating way and he was a full-blown Jedi, not just a Padawan. I can understand him taking on some of the responsibility for what was a complete clusterfeth but - again - he comes across as being a bit of an idiot for taking a 16-year long vow of penance. I'm also wondering what the actual plan of the Coven, and especially the Mother, was. What if only the 2 Jedi had shown up? If Kalnaka hadn't arrived, what was the plan, exactly?
Even the choice Sol makes to save Osha seems reasonable in hindsight. Yes, it's a horrible choice to have to make, but if we assume he definitely couldn't save both, saving the one who wants to go with you and isn't obviously Evil(tm) is exactly the sort of choice Jedi have to make and justify all the time.
The pacing and writing just seems pretty questionable here again. We've just had a couple of really good episodes with some good forward momentum, mainly thanks to refocussing the story away from being just about the twins and Sol. Then we go back to a flashback episode that seems to be trying to be much more impactful than it actually is and doesn't reveal anything about the most interesting part of the entire season. I'm doubtful they'll stick the landing on this one.
