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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I’m absolutely tickled that after all the faux outrage about “woke”?

The only thing even approaching “woke” was the suggestion of two women possibly being in a romantic relationship.

You can safely ignore anybody who cries about anything being "woke".

It's true that several things that have been accused of being woke have indeed been terrible, but almost always as a result of bad writing rather than "going woke". That said, I don't think I saw any criticism of The Acolyte because of it being woke. I'm sure that criticism existed somewhere, but almost all of the criticism I've seen has been down to legitimate writing issues.

It's like a lot of those. There was a lot of it pre-release that and stupid review bombing and what not.

I will say, for whatever reason, this one seemed to separate more quickly into real and fake criticism. It was a lot easier to discuss than prior nonsense with people being more accepting of its strengths as well as its many weaknesses.

Slipspace wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I’m absolutely tickled that after all the faux outrage about “woke”?

The only thing even approaching “woke” was the suggestion of two women possibly being in a romantic relationship.

You can safely ignore anybody who cries about anything being "woke".

It's true that several things that have been accused of being woke have indeed been terrible, but almost always as a result of bad writing rather than "going woke". That said, I don't think I saw any criticism of The Acolyte because of it being woke. I'm sure that criticism existed somewhere, but almost all of the criticism I've seen has been down to legitimate writing issues.

Its because the two go together.

Woke stuff has basically been universally badly written at this point, not just Star Wars. So if a show has signs of Woke in it people are rightfully associating that it will be bad. Correlation is not causation of course, but it is the exception rather than the rule for a woke show to be actually decent. You cannot blame people for following their gut reactions.

Basically, the people who push Woke agendas are universally terrible writers. So avoiding what they write is a good rule of thumb. IMO it is directly related, because including Woke things is about checking boxes in a corporate board room not hiring someone who actually has experience and skill. The current batch of writers and directors at Disney are motivated by woke agenda, they got rid of most of the skilled writers and directors that used to work there and hired younger(IE: inexperienced and unskilled) people who fit the agenda.

So yes, bad writing and woke are not the same thing, but they are inextricably linked at this point.

Nvm.

I'm overall disappointed with The Acolyte. The writing was subpar to say the least, and a lot of the acting, with the exception of Lee Jung-Jae, was fairly wooden. I enjoyed a bit of the world-building, seeing the galaxy a hundred years before The Phantom Menace and everything, and some of the new ship designs (and yet more species of Jedi) were cool to see. I personally didn't think we needed any potential backstory or explanation that might relate to how Anakin was born without a father; I'd have preferred that to remain mysterious, just like Yoda's home planet and the name of his species. The whole "woke agenda" stuff might have been a bit overblown, but it was definitely there, as it felt like the casting and writing was ticking off boxes more than finding actual talent or telling a coherent story. This is mostly why I actually do rate this show below Book of Boba. I at least enjoyed that show even if it was kind of silly. The Acolyte just mostly left me scratching my head and wondering what the hell I just watched. If others enjoyed it, more power to them, different strokes and all that.

The final episode was fun again. Not without issues, but at least we're back to getting some quality Qimir action. As we should. We deserve good things.

 ZergSmasher wrote:
The Acolyte just mostly left me scratching my head and wondering what the hell I just watched.

I think that's where I am. I can appreciate the show's ideas, but not the implementation thereof. Maybe watching it again in one go now that I'm familiar with it may improve things, but the show is just such a mess.

On the bright side, good ideas and dodgy implementation still makes The Acolyte far superior to the sequel trilogy and Obi-Wan. That's something.

Slipspace wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I’m absolutely tickled that after all the faux outrage about “woke”?

The only thing even approaching “woke” was the suggestion of two women possibly being in a romantic relationship.

You can safely ignore anybody who cries about anything being "woke".

It's true that several things that have been accused of being woke have indeed been terrible, but almost always as a result of bad writing rather than "going woke". That said, I don't think I saw any criticism of The Acolyte because of it being woke. I'm sure that criticism existed somewhere, but almost all of the criticism I've seen has been down to legitimate writing issues.

Exactly.

Pretty much all live-action Star Wars since ROTJ has been mediocre at best and it has never been due to it being 'woke.'
Woke almost makes no sense in the context of Star Wars where force-users throughout official canon and legends have consistently stomped on everyone else and have had excessive influence on galactic matters.

Yoda is a green midget with zero muscle mass and a bad accent. He's a beloved character. He's one of the most influential characters throughout the first two trilogies.
Seriously, the anti-woke crowd tolerated this infantile creature doing flips all over Count Dooku's head, but a black woman being force-sensitive is too far?
Yes, I'm being slightly facetious, but that's how absurd the arguments look to me in the context of this universe.

Side note, all real world politics end up a bit absurd in the context of Star Wars.

I do miss that old empire :( It was like the guys in charge of my organization took over the galaxy.

Otherwise - good Gods where does the money go?! The series cost that much to make? How? Why?

Big cast, lots of special effects, some pretty massive sets, and wasn't early production happening when all the Covid shenanigans started? That pushed up the cost of pretty much everything that was in progress at the time.

Also design work on the ships and uniforms etc. Being the first live media set in this part of the franchise, they couldn’t just use existing digital assets.

Speaking of which. I found the ships a wee bit lacklustre.

I'm disappointed we didn't see more of the Vector. The two-part shuttle they were gadding about in for most of the show didn't really do it for me.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Also design work on the ships and uniforms etc. Being the first live media set in this part of the franchise, they couldn’t just use existing digital assets.

Speaking of which. I found the ships a wee bit lacklustre.

That might be similar to how Picard series had to copy-paste the same ship over and over for their end battle at the 1st season but by the 3rd they had lots of assets.

It's an issue when a show wants to start big or follow a big franchise but still has to run with the limits of being just season 1 and having to start everything from scratch. Compared to a show that grows from a small point and organically adds more and more over the years (of course they can hit the issue that what they develop ends up "old style" and either they have to spend a lot making big tech jumps later or stick to older tech and be "retro" as the years go on)

Ship wise? They just weren’t quite Star Wars distinctive enough, perhaps a bit spindly looking?

Now, different era = different designs aside? Contrast them with Luthen Rael’s ship from Andor. That absolutely screamed Star Wars to me, whilst also managing to stand out as a novel design.

The multi-part ability of the Jedi ship was cool, but the design didn’t quite land for me.

The Razorcrest did the same for Mandalorian.

I do think it played in to one of the overriding themes of the show, which was general Jedi incompetence. Not that they were ill intentioned, but it seemed like they were working with poorly maintained, likely generally available ships at this point in the timeline. Much like the uniforms... they were aggressively unimpressive.

I thought one of the best touches, costuming wise, was Sol and Indara being perpetually in gloves- quite literally emulating Indara's hands off approach.

I dunno. Given that shows like Arcane, CW era Ahsoka, early GoT, Castlevania, and more were all pretty much loved by audiences despite (in the context of the discussion) having plenty of strong female characters tells me that there is something to the notion that the main issue is bad writing, not stronk wahmen bad.

Sure there are basement dwellers like that (and they're not only getting louder, they're gaining traction. It's almost as if dismissing genuine concerns and critiques as reactionary and X-ist serves only to alienate people and drives them straight into the arms of the group you don't want), and while woke preaching is very often a sign of bad writing, not all bad writing is woke, nor all woke writing bad.

And if anything Star Wars is known for having lots of aliens. The reason most main characters were white humans is be ause at the time that was who the show for and the writers wantedcharacters the audience could identify with.
Saying that means white mysongonist xenophobes were in charge of the galaxy is kind of disingenuous when Star Wars (and Trek probably moreso) with all its weird alien people are one of the reasons we now pretty much universally accept that the main character needn't have (well, except apparently for ideologue writers) a close resemblance to the target audience.

In an effort to learn the ship names, found a YouTube video released early on in the run.

And there are ships I’d forgotten about.

The Prison Transport? Lovely design.

Trade Federation Ship Osha worked on? Lovely design.

Both very recognisable as Star Wars.

But the Jedi Transport? I dunno. It just looks like a Winnebago. A chunky, lumbering bit of kit which my mind just can’t associate with the Jedi Order. Its modular style does work as a concept.

Qimir’s ship? The twin cockpits seem alright, but overall it just doesn’t look up to much. Have I’d have a stronger and more settled opinion if we’d seen more of it, particularly in action.

I think the ships have lost their quirkiness from the OT and the prequel trilogy. The recent series have shown us ships that feel a bit more "realistic" from an in-universe point of view but they mostly lack character.

Take the OT, for example. There's no good reason for the X-Wing wings to open, but it looks cool. Same with the B-Wing's weird design that would be absolutely terrible in the real world. Or consider TIE Fighters with no visibility to the sides. These are all objectively stupid designs, but they're also unique and memorable. Colour also plays a part. So many of the recent ships have been various shades of brown and grey. There's really nothing to latch onto as a viewer.

This was genuinely some of the worst SW I've ever watch. A remake of the Holiday Special with Jar Jar as the lead character would still be better than this hot garbage. So much makes no sense, the writing is appalling and, for the most part, the acting is woeful.

I'm glad some of you enjoyed it, but I can't fathom how!

For my own sanity, I'm just going to assume from here on out that anyone claiming any modern Star Wars production is worse than the Holiday Special hasn't actually seen the Holiday Special. I get that different people have different opinions, and I love hyperbole at much as the next billion people... But it's such a ridiculous comparison that it immediately makes it impossible to take any accompanying commentary seriously.

It feels like the modern phenomena of anything not considered say, 9/10 is therefore 1/10.

The Acolyte? I’d say a comfortable 7/10 at worst. It ain’t perfect, but it held my interest, introduced the odd interesting twist.

I’ve not a lot on in the coming weeks, so will put a day aside to binge the whole of the thing.

 insaniak wrote:
For my own sanity, I'm just going to assume from here on out that anyone claiming any modern Star Wars production is worse than the Holiday Special hasn't actually seen the Holiday Special. I get that different people have different opinions, and I love hyperbole at much as the next billion people... But it's such a ridiculous comparison that it immediately makes it impossible to take any accompanying commentary seriously.

Oh, I've seen the Holiday Special!
And yes, I'm being a tad hyperbolic, but I still really struggle with The Acolyte. The wooden acting, the appalling writing, the poor charaacters, the nonsense, gaping plot holes, they all really grated.
I wanted to enjoy this show, it has so much potential on offer, and that maybe why I've got issues. I went in with low expectaions after other Disney offerings, and these weren't even reached.

grahamdbailey wrote:
. The wooden acting, the appalling writing, the poor charaacters, the nonsense, gaping plot holes,

I mean, that could also describe all three of the prequels and at least half of Return of the Jedi... But like the Acolyte, they're entertaining enough if you don't try to take them too seriously.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
But the Jedi Transport? I dunno. It just looks like a Winnebago. A chunky, lumbering bit of kit which my mind just can’t associate with the Jedi Order. Its modular style does work as a concept.

I can't say I've paid attention to the ships and so I don't have much of an opinion on coolness, but the transport seems to fulfill its function* in the context of what's shown in the show. Jedi travel in packs. Jedi go on camping trips and do their own scientific expeditions. They kidnap lots of kids, and it may just be more economic to make a pickup round with a single ship. Jedi are not subject to outside oversight, so there's really nothing to stop them from keeping all sorts of ships and not hire out bulk freight contracts when they can just ferry stuff around themselves.

Plus, in an era of peace there's little need for military considerations. Chunky and lumbering is fine if it offers other benefits.




* I'm not claiming that the ship actually functions. It broke like clockwork at the most inconvenient time for no reason whatsoever**. But you know, might have sounded good to the Jedi from reading the brochure.

** Star Trek writers in days of yore at least tried to explain why the really convenient miracle technologies fail so often when they're writing a little drama into their scripts. The guys responsible for The Acolyte didn't even try.

Saw the comment that the Acolyte made a bad series but would have made a great movie. They seemed to think stretching it out worked against it but that if it were more compact and efficient in its storytelling it would have been better for the story being presented.

 Ahtman wrote:
Saw the comment that the Acolyte made a bad series but would have made a great movie. They seemed to think stretching it out worked against it but that if it were more compact and efficient in its storytelling it would have been better for the story being presented.

This has been a reoccurring issue with the Disney+ shows. Some of them were legitimately film scripts before the launch of Disney+ had them expanded out to a film (Kenobi and Boba being part of the abandoned "A Star Wars Story" series). I'm not sure the content of this one has the same should have been a film issues as those two, but I think it shares a similar issue in how its edited. It's very strangely put together, where the mix of being a 4 hour film and being 8 individual episodes really messes with the plot structure. Like story beats get put in the wrong place because a single episode would be lacking but it breaks up the impact of reveals and just creates a disjointed story. I think most of the Marvel/Star Wars projects really suffer from this in one form or another, with the best of them being stuff that for one reason or another demanded more episodic storytelling (WandaVision/Mandalorian).

It sure is lucky that nobody ever questioned little gopher guy, since he knows all about the Sith that the Jedi are covering up for no logical reason...

 Lord Damocles wrote:
It sure is lucky that nobody ever questioned little gopher guy, since he knows all about the Sith that the Jedi are covering up for no logical reason...

Does he, though? Bazil was off in the forest by himself during the fight. He didn't see any of it.

The long silence was the best part. Like the guy who just repeats the same 6ish jokes couldn't think of any way to make fun of that part except by just letting it be its own joke.

That and the poor communication kills jokes.

Though, thinking about it, I think I agree with him. If the story had been told chronologically and not with flashback episodes, I think it would have flowed better?

Flashbacks are fine if it isn't half the run time and then like a whole other episode. It's the one part of Andor that I didn't like, the flashbacks to his Lord of the Flies childhood that I'm still not sure explains anything apart from "Cassian is from here and got picked up by scavengers".

Maybe it would have ruined the mystery aspect but seeing as the "mystery" was "who's the master", that still would have worked IMO.