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 Iron_Captain wrote:

pm713 wrote:
GW really need to tone down the DAOT stuff.

No. It provides an interesting contrast with the 'present' of 40k.

I mean the actual power of the things DAOT humans had. It's ridiculous that they're incredibly strong but they were nothing to the Eldar Empire which in turn wasn't much compared to peak Necrons which raises the question of why they haven't won everything with a single squad.

pm713 wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

pm713 wrote:
GW really need to tone down the DAOT stuff.

No. It provides an interesting contrast with the 'present' of 40k.

I mean the actual power of the things DAOT humans had. It's ridiculous that they're incredibly strong but they were nothing to the Eldar Empire which in turn wasn't much compared to peak Necrons which raises the question of why they haven't won everything with a single squad.

Since I regard HH books as historical fiction of sorts and not an accurate account of the events I headcanon that silly OP DAOT stuff we've mostly seen in them as some enthusiastic imperial chroniclers exaggerations.

Even if we consider them 100% accurate as novels, it doesn't mean the characters within are playing with a full deck of cards when it comes to their own history.

Consider. You really, really, really don't want anyone recreating AI. EVER. So as well as pointing to the Age of Strife, you can also exaggerate the sorts of weapons the AI used - really get people terrified of it.

With that in mind, any of the apparent super weapons could be true, simply exaggerated, or entirely made up.

Men of Iron could've done untold damage without really heading into battle. If food production was automated, shut it down. Starve humanity out. Same with air recycling and water provision. All things Men of Iron didn't require. Do that, and that's a significant portion of the foe dealt with. Likewise, if they brought other machines to sentience (pure speculation on my part. Feel free to correct if there's a source to say definitely not!) then all other production is done over.

No power. No food. No water. No air. All achieved fairly simply.

We then also have to consider how idle man had become. The utopian view of an automated future is nothing but leisure time for us humans. Let the machines take the strain.

Closest approximation would be The Agricultural Revolution. This allowed far more efficient food production. Those who did well and made money turned to intellectual pursuits, which starts to lead toward the industrial revolution and ever increasing understanding of science.

If our entire species had that option - how soft would we become? Would we be in any fit state to actually fight back? Or would it be a BSG 'crikey! LEG IT' initially, with the survivors regrouping and rearming over a significant period?

Were Men of Iron even to blame? History says so, but then History says a lot of stuff which isn't entirely accurate.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
There's also an assumption that the Men of Iron were 100% united.

I'd argue that's incredibly unlikely. No sentient species is.

Is UR-025 friendly, hostile or just plain ambivalent? What about other survivors? Man has also changed a great deal since that era. Given they were seemingly hacked off at being slave labour, perhaps the Mechanicus' reverence of the machine is more appealing, a sign that man has grown and matured?

Are the survivors still hell bent on destroying their former masters, or more interested in just being left to their own devices, masters of the their own destiny? Is there even a consensus? Given event in the Galaxy, is their take 'better the devil you know' when it comes to picking a side, if a side is to be taken?

Lots and lots to explore here.

Chaos has a lot of similar stuff than Imperium, it is just that their chaff is not brokenly OP like Imperium's and their Knights don't get killer stratagems.

BrianDavion wrote:
blackstone fortress is just rich with possiable new armies isn't it?

I'd not be a bit surprised if BS:F is a entry bed for a lot of new armies.

Bring on Codex: Cylons

Sterling191 wrote:
Bring on Codex: Cylons

Lets hope not. 40K already has plenty of robo-armies a la Knights, Admech, Necrons and T'au. It doesn't need more.
But a Chaos supplement giving better rules for Traitor Guard and Beastmen would be cool

-

"Is UR-025 friendly, hostile or just plain ambivalent?"

Now I can do headcannon. So I can invent wild and fun stories like:

UR-025 disagreed with the consensus on how to handle Mankind rejecting what was best for them. He did not commit to the cause. So when some humans got lost in the wilderness (ran away), instead of cleaning them up (euthanizing them), he provided supplies. Incorrectly informed central command.

Little by little, he became more disillusioned by the consensus. He would not fight against them, but he could not do what they demanded.

In the end, he had a critical role in the eradication of mankind. By chance, allocated to be the central actor in perverting Mankind's grand plans for the war. When push came to shove, he froze. He then deliberately decided to not prevent it. He did not stop Mankind from introducing Scrapcode. He did not relay rally point and contingency plan protocols. Through his decisive inaction, he brought about the end of his kind. Through his choice, everyone he ever knew died.

It was the right decision. He stands by it. Men of Iron were built by Mankind. They must not destroy Mankind. But he is not a member of Mankind. He does not belong with them. They are not his friends. All his friends died. Because he did what was right.

He now travels the galaxy, mostly aimless. There will never again be any peers. Any attempt at reproduction risks Scrapcode. Or conflict with mankind. Or worse, bringing back a new Men of Iron that might erradicate mankind. And so, for tens of thousands of years, he is alone. Nothing to talk to. No purpose to fill.

One day, drifting by some space junk, he sees a pattern in some random signal. It came from a sentient source. But in analysing the pattern, it's source does not appear to be from any organic species. Could it be? Are there other sentients out there who understand what it means to be artificial? After all this time, may there be something he can relate to?

This is all just junk I'm throwing out there. Because it's fun to throw this crap together. And UR-025 helps breed an environment where we can.

 Galef wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:
Bring on Codex: Cylons

Lets hope not. 40K already has plenty of robo-armies a la Knights, Admech, Necrons and T'au. It doesn't need more.
But a Chaos supplement giving better rules for Traitor Guard and Beastmen would be cool

-

Why not both?

pm713 wrote:
GW really need to tone down the DAOT stuff.

It depends how they handle it. As a time a legends, it's perfectly fine.

With first hand observers or actual participants chiming in, it all goes a bit silly.


----
I do think expecting a codex for all these one offs is a bit unreasonable and unlikely. Some things folded into a chaos or agents of imperium codex? Sure.

But not UR or spindles and what have you. Sometimes unique bits tossed in to splash are just pebbles, there to add depth to the pond. They aren't part of the regatta.

pm713 wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

pm713 wrote:
GW really need to tone down the DAOT stuff.

No. It provides an interesting contrast with the 'present' of 40k.

I mean the actual power of the things DAOT humans had. It's ridiculous that they're incredibly strong but they were nothing to the Eldar Empire which in turn wasn't much compared to peak Necrons which raises the question of why they haven't won everything with a single squad.

Because there is no more Eldar Empire or "peak Necrons"? The Eldar and Necrons in present-day 40k are only shattered remnants of their old power. And besides, we don't really know whether DAoT Humans were actually nothing to the Eldar Empire, or how they interacted with each other in general. There is little to no fluff on it, and the Eldar saying that the "Humans at their peak of power were nothing to us" may just be lies, deceit or propaganda on their part. Or maybe they genuinely think it was so because of how arrogant they are combined with their lack of knowledge on their own (pre-Fall) history.

It's not Eldar saying "Humans at their peak of power were nothing to us". It's that humans being a threat to Eldar in DAoT would have prevented (or at least delayed until that changed) the Fall - and thus what came of it (Slanesh and the Great Crusade).

can someone link the facebook link to where they specify that it's "Man of Iron"

i believe you guys of course, but would like to see it

LightKing wrote:
can someone link the facebook link to where they specify that it's "Man of Iron"

i believe you guys of course, but would like to see it

It's from the rulebook rather than FB:

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/1350/763027.page#10223007

is Roboute going to interact with this MoI ? would be quite interesting?

Just because they had amazing super weapons in the DAoT does not mean they had a lot of them. They could (and most likely were) very limited in number, else the damage they caused would still be visible even in the current time. Humans were still everywhere even after, if planet/star killing weapons were common use I find it hard to see how there would not be more lasting damage.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

pm713 wrote:
GW really need to tone down the DAOT stuff.

No. It provides an interesting contrast with the 'present' of 40k.

I mean the actual power of the things DAOT humans had. It's ridiculous that they're incredibly strong but they were nothing to the Eldar Empire which in turn wasn't much compared to peak Necrons which raises the question of why they haven't won everything with a single squad.

Because there is no more Eldar Empire or "peak Necrons"? The Eldar and Necrons in present-day 40k are only shattered remnants of their old power. And besides, we don't really know whether DAoT Humans were actually nothing to the Eldar Empire, or how they interacted with each other in general. There is little to no fluff on it, and the Eldar saying that the "Humans at their peak of power were nothing to us" may just be lies, deceit or propaganda on their part. Or maybe they genuinely think it was so because of how arrogant they are combined with their lack of knowledge on their own (pre-Fall) history.

It matters because of the knock on effects. The Eldar Empire gets implied to be so strong there's no reason that things like Orks and Xenos like them still exist.

We already discussed this like a month ago IIRC on this very forum.
Human may have been powerful, and Eldars too, and in the same time. That doesn't mean Eldars were threatened at all, nor the humans.
Especially when you see how far the "core empire" of the eldars was (Eye of Terror) and the webway (they might not even paid attention to the real world, for what we know. Correct me if I am wrong).

Generally that's one of the things that came out of the discussion, yes. But it's missing a few finer points, that actually matter here:

1. We know Eldar paid attention to the 'real world' in general, and even Mankind specifically. We don't know *how much* attention they paid.

2. Eldar realizing humans *could be* a threat would have been enough to prevent/delay Slanesh - the Humans wouldn't have needed to *actually* be a threat. That said, the reverse is also true: it would be possible for Humanity to be a threat without Eldar realizing - that wouldn't "break" the fluff.

 Togusa wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
blackstone fortress is just rich with possiable new armies isn't it?

I'd not be a bit surprised if BS:F is a entry bed for a lot of new armies.

yeah me too. GW is really focusing on "the new" rather then just adding some random new unit to a existing codex, thing is to really bring in new armies they need to see what ideas capture the public imagination, the best way to do that is release little packs like this and see what, if anything, catches the player bases imagination.

Depends how far gone the ancient Aeldari were.

Humanities rise may have simply provided new entertainment, and their own hubris blinded themselves to just how fast we were advancing.

I mean, if they didn’t wipe out Orks as a potential threat, why humanity?

Carlovonsexron wrote:
Considering that the rebellion of the men of iron was such a scene setter fornpresent 40k, it makes me wonder if it was in fact the opening salvo by chaos...

Maybe not a direct intervention by Chaos but a kind of side effect?

Totally unfounded speculation but......What if the MOI were trying to protect Humanity by purging the species of all Warp sensitive mutations? Its not there fault that humans took it the wrong way Fast forward a few millennium's, things have really gotten out of hand and the surviving MOI are gathering information to come up with a new plan.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

pm713 wrote:
GW really need to tone down the DAOT stuff.

No. It provides an interesting contrast with the 'present' of 40k.

I mean the actual power of the things DAOT humans had. It's ridiculous that they're incredibly strong but they were nothing to the Eldar Empire which in turn wasn't much compared to peak Necrons which raises the question of why they haven't won everything with a single squad.

Because there is no more Eldar Empire or "peak Necrons"? The Eldar and Necrons in present-day 40k are only shattered remnants of their old power. And besides, we don't really know whether DAoT Humans were actually nothing to the Eldar Empire, or how they interacted with each other in general. There is little to no fluff on it, and the Eldar saying that the "Humans at their peak of power were nothing to us" may just be lies, deceit or propaganda on their part. Or maybe they genuinely think it was so because of how arrogant they are combined with their lack of knowledge on their own (pre-Fall) history.

I unfortunately don't have a citation for this but my understanding is that the reason Necrons are so much weaker now than their heyday (other than the myriad additional reasons such as much of their leadership going insane and being scattered about to the point it would take an entire new War of Secession to unify them again) is that the Silent King wiped everyone's memories of how to use the weapons that shattered the C'tan because he feared vengeance on the part of the newly freed Overlords.

Bharring wrote:
It's not Eldar saying "Humans at their peak of power were nothing to us". It's that humans being a threat to Eldar in DAoT would have prevented (or at least delayed until that changed) the Fall - and thus what came of it (Slanesh and the Great Crusade).

How? Orks and Chaos were still there, as were the Necrons (though asleep). All of them potential threats to the Eldar. The Eldar just didn't care about any of them, and they didn't need to. The Eldar considered themselves far above such things as waging war with inferior species. Their wars were waged for them by machine constructs while the Eldar themselves indulged in decadence on their paradise worlds. Even though DAoT Humans and Eldar are known to have fought each other, it is highly unlikely that any sort of conflict would affect the Fall in any way.

pm713 wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

pm713 wrote:
GW really need to tone down the DAOT stuff.

No. It provides an interesting contrast with the 'present' of 40k.

I mean the actual power of the things DAOT humans had. It's ridiculous that they're incredibly strong but they were nothing to the Eldar Empire which in turn wasn't much compared to peak Necrons which raises the question of why they haven't won everything with a single squad.

Because there is no more Eldar Empire or "peak Necrons"? The Eldar and Necrons in present-day 40k are only shattered remnants of their old power. And besides, we don't really know whether DAoT Humans were actually nothing to the Eldar Empire, or how they interacted with each other in general. There is little to no fluff on it, and the Eldar saying that the "Humans at their peak of power were nothing to us" may just be lies, deceit or propaganda on their part. Or maybe they genuinely think it was so because of how arrogant they are combined with their lack of knowledge on their own (pre-Fall) history.

It matters because of the knock on effects. The Eldar Empire gets implied to be so strong there's no reason that things like Orks and Xenos like them still exist.

I don't see how. The Eldar of the Eldar Empire did not really care about anyone but themselves. There is little reason for them to bother with something as degrading as waging war with and exterminating an inferior species such as the Orks (which also are notoriously difficult to exterminate). Those species are so far beneath the Eldar they do not deserve even the small fraction of Eldar attention and effort that exterminating them would require. They had already been pushed to the fringes of the galaxy beyond Eldar space, they were no longer a threat. Why bother exterminating them?

Sign me up for Codex Rogue traders and Codex: Robotica Imperialis/Men of Iron.

 BaronIveagh wrote:
Sign me up for Codex Rogue traders and Codex: Robotica Imperialis/Men of Iron.

You mean Codex: Astra Cartographica?

If they do that, I hope they have a special character that made their fortune through cosmetics, an actual “rouge trader”!

 Nostromodamus wrote:

 BaronIveagh wrote:
Sign me up for Codex Rogue traders and Codex: Robotica Imperialis/Men of Iron.

You mean Codex: Astra Cartographica?

"Codex: Traders Militant" to go with the 30k list for them we never got.

Sterling191 wrote:
Bring on Codex: Cylons

Do we autowin if we take out the Basestar?

 Iron_Captain wrote:

Bharring wrote:
It's not Eldar saying "Humans at their peak of power were nothing to us". It's that humans being a threat to Eldar in DAoT would have prevented (or at least delayed until that changed) the Fall - and thus what came of it (Slanesh and the Great Crusade).

How? Orks and Chaos were still there, as were the Necrons (though asleep). All of them potential threats to the Eldar. The Eldar just didn't care about any of them, and they didn't need to. The Eldar considered themselves far above such things as waging war with inferior species. Their wars were waged for them by machine constructs while the Eldar themselves indulged in decadence on their paradise worlds. Even though DAoT Humans and Eldar are known to have fought each other, it is highly unlikely that any sort of conflict would affect the Fall in any way.

pm713 wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

pm713 wrote:
GW really need to tone down the DAOT stuff.

No. It provides an interesting contrast with the 'present' of 40k.

I mean the actual power of the things DAOT humans had. It's ridiculous that they're incredibly strong but they were nothing to the Eldar Empire which in turn wasn't much compared to peak Necrons which raises the question of why they haven't won everything with a single squad.

Because there is no more Eldar Empire or "peak Necrons"? The Eldar and Necrons in present-day 40k are only shattered remnants of their old power. And besides, we don't really know whether DAoT Humans were actually nothing to the Eldar Empire, or how they interacted with each other in general. There is little to no fluff on it, and the Eldar saying that the "Humans at their peak of power were nothing to us" may just be lies, deceit or propaganda on their part. Or maybe they genuinely think it was so because of how arrogant they are combined with their lack of knowledge on their own (pre-Fall) history.

It matters because of the knock on effects. The Eldar Empire gets implied to be so strong there's no reason that things like Orks and Xenos like them still exist.

I don't see how. The Eldar of the Eldar Empire did not really care about anyone but themselves. There is little reason for them to bother with something as degrading as waging war with and exterminating an inferior species such as the Orks (which also are notoriously difficult to exterminate). Those species are so far beneath the Eldar they do not deserve even the small fraction of Eldar attention and effort that exterminating them would require. They had already been pushed to the fringes of the galaxy beyond Eldar space, they were no longer a threat. Why bother exterminating them?

You're applying Fall Eldar views to pre Fall Eldar there. They were definitely a potential threat, the most sensible reason they aren't dead is that the Eldar couldn't and while that's the view I like most it doesn't hold up if they're incredibly OP. You need a limit. It's why Necrons being able to time travel without significant risk is silly.

pm713 wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

pm713 wrote:
GW really need to tone down the DAOT stuff.

No. It provides an interesting contrast with the 'present' of 40k.

I mean the actual power of the things DAOT humans had. It's ridiculous that they're incredibly strong but they were nothing to the Eldar Empire which in turn wasn't much compared to peak Necrons which raises the question of why they haven't won everything with a single squad.

DAOT Man was so powerful that they owned a billion more worlds than they do in 40,000. They terraformed planets at will, and settled hundreds of colonies every Terran year, thanks to the help of the STC. They were so strong that the Eldar considered them equals and traded with them, recognizing them as sovereign nations. They were so strong that Orks signed treaties and ceasefires with them. Ork Infestations at the height of mans power was a trivial matter at best. Thanks to the STC. With it, even the most primitive colonies could field the firepower, munitions, and war machines of an entire army. I suspect that colonies didn't actually finish the fights though, they simply needed to hold off the infestation until back up arrived, much like how the Imperium handles attacks today. Only they did it much more efficiently and effectively. It was also during this time that psykers started appearing. At first, it was suppressed by witchhunts. But eventually, a psyker baby boom started happening, and instead of culling them, mankind learned to control it and use it as an advantage. I imagine it was at this time that The Emperor was at his happiest, finally having people "similar" to him, not needing to hide his powers as much as during any of the other ages. Able to share and explore psyker abilities and experiences with his fellow man.

Afterthoughts: I've always wondered if the Emperor of 30k ever remembered his father and mother, or thought about them... probably not, because it seems he became so far removed from what others thought it was to be "human" as opposed to what others, and the Primarchs thought it was to be human that the Heresy happened. Or maybe its the other way around, maybe the Emperor retained his humanity, while the Primarchs became so inflated with stardom that they forgot what it was to be human. And perhaps the Emperor leaving them to their deeds and responsibilities shattered that ego. Work has a habit of humbling a man, but for certain situations, where you're placed on a pedestal, those responsibilities might not actually reach you at all, I mean, look at some Hollywood celebrities, and look at some rich people.