Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Virules wrote:
Odd for people to complain about mortal wounds when there are so many things in the game much scarier and more competitive than mortal wounds.

One is a Mechanic issue, the other is a "codex" issue (aka soup lists, various 3++ in x, y, or z combo or setup). Both are a problem. One is fixed by codex changes or list changes/restrictions/points. The other is a core edition mechanic that has fallout and issues that make balancing the codex changes harder because if you raise points, change things then people will just switch back to mortal wounds. Or you create other flavors of the month/day/second. Building good a good codex on a rocky core rules foundation is precarious.

Simply put, the stacked total -2 to hit in some codexes wouldn't be an issue if to-hit over 6 was a core mechanic included. It would still be effective at seriously reducing firepower but it wouldn't completely shut down some shooting or render it a joke. I mean all you have to do to stop orks shooting heavy weapons on the move is.. -1 to hit. easy peasy way to shut down an entire armies shooting (which wasn't that scary to begin with.. but then one asks, why bring guns at all?).

Even worse is when you can stack unshootable with a 3++/ignore wound rolls combo. It's as bad as 2++ rerollable jink saves was in previous editions.

Not saying there are problems but a solid core rules set helps mitigate some of the cheese. Players will always find loopholes to use and abuse but in some ways that gets down to an issue with players such that they bend the rules till the scream in order to exploit rules to make the game unfair.. there is a word for that but I won't bring it up in the era when cheating and getting away with it is considered a virtue in most developed nations.

Such players were once banned from communities and tournaments. Not really anymore, Super Friends, etc has brought Abuse as Meta as the norm. At this point we all might as well be Scaven where people are applauded for being devious, underhanded, and down right dirty players.

 Grimgold wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

 Aaranis wrote:
I would be happy if there was a way for my DA to counter 3x Riptides with their 3++ and shield drones

helblasters with weapons of the new dark age tends to work quite well form most DA players. Also if they are nova charging their shields they arn't getting maximum shooting at you.
Given Tau as a Codex are still getting rolled by Aeldari Soup, Choas soup, Imperial Soup and Orks they arn't exactlly in a possition to survive much if any CA nerfing. The real issue is GW hasn't committed ti primaris or not so no loyalist codex is actually fully functional.

You seem to be missing the drones, and there is no way a DA player is going to get a shot in on a riptide with shield drones about. Also the part about the various soup flavors is pure deflection, and more than moderately untrue. Tau have the most Wins out of any single faction codex, and perform better than many soup configurations.

You want to link some geniune evidence rather than just nah bruv soup is deflection.
You shoot the drone first, people do it all the time your seriously trying to say Tau are ahead of the ork codex?
Than the -3 to hit ALITOC army of eldar or 4++ Harliquins?
Sounds like you just have a unjustified axe to grind.

I've never seen a whole Alaitoc army with -3 to hit. How do they accomplish that?

Ice_can wrote:

 Grimgold wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

 Aaranis wrote:
I would be happy if there was a way for my DA to counter 3x Riptides with their 3++ and shield drones

helblasters with weapons of the new dark age tends to work quite well form most DA players. Also if they are nova charging their shields they arn't getting maximum shooting at you.
Given Tau as a Codex are still getting rolled by Aeldari Soup, Choas soup, Imperial Soup and Orks they arn't exactlly in a possition to survive much if any CA nerfing. The real issue is GW hasn't committed ti primaris or not so no loyalist codex is actually fully functional.

You seem to be missing the drones, and there is no way a DA player is going to get a shot in on a riptide with shield drones about. Also the part about the various soup flavors is pure deflection, and more than moderately untrue. Tau have the most Wins out of any single faction codex, and perform better than many soup configurations.

You want to link some geniune evidence rather than just nah bruv soup is deflection.
You shoot the drone first, people do it all the time your seriously trying to say Tau are ahead of the ork codex?
Than the -3 to hit ALITOC army of eldar or 4++ Harliquins?
Sounds like you just have a unjustified axe to grind.

Sure, why don't we start with how many time tau has gotten into the top 3, 17 times in the data available from 40k stats. This is second only to Yannari soup, and beats out every other flavors of soup. Ws are what matter, and Tau have a lot of them. They have more of them in fact than every flavor of soup that uses marines as the primary component. Also I don't have an axe to grind, I have data, you should try a more evidence based view as opposed to cherry picking from the most Op faction to try and justify the broken as gak things in your own faction.

Bharring wrote:
I've never seen a whole Alaitoc army with -3 to hit. How do they accomplish that?

Rangers and flyers for a base -2 then it fairly east for them to force to to attack specific units for -3 they then have stratageums and pshycic powers for anything you do get to shoot at at minus 2 to hit anyway and a 5+ FNP.

"Rangers and flyers for a base -2 then it fairly east for them to force to to attack specific units for -3 they then have stratageums and pshycic powers for anything you do get to shoot at at minus 2 to hit anyway and a 5+ FNP."
They can only give *one* unit 5+ FNP. They can only give *one* unit Conceal. They can only give *one* unit LQR. So, unless there is only one unit on the board, you're grossly overstating what they do.

 Grimgold wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

 Grimgold wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

 Aaranis wrote:
I would be happy if there was a way for my DA to counter 3x Riptides with their 3++ and shield drones

helblasters with weapons of the new dark age tends to work quite well form most DA players. Also if they are nova charging their shields they arn't getting maximum shooting at you.
Given Tau as a Codex are still getting rolled by Aeldari Soup, Choas soup, Imperial Soup and Orks they arn't exactlly in a possition to survive much if any CA nerfing. The real issue is GW hasn't committed ti primaris or not so no loyalist codex is actually fully functional.

You seem to be missing the drones, and there is no way a DA player is going to get a shot in on a riptide with shield drones about. Also the part about the various soup flavors is pure deflection, and more than moderately untrue. Tau have the most Wins out of any single faction codex, and perform better than many soup configurations.

You want to link some geniune evidence rather than just nah bruv soup is deflection.
You shoot the drone first, people do it all the time your seriously trying to say Tau are ahead of the ork codex?
Than the -3 to hit ALITOC army of eldar or 4++ Harliquins?
Sounds like you just have a unjustified axe to grind.

Sure, why don't we start with how many time tau has gotten into the top 3, 17 times in the data available from 40k stats. This is second only to Yannari soup, and beats out every other flavors of soup. Ws are what matter, and Tau have a lot of them. They have more of them in fact than every flavor of soup that uses marines as the primary component. Also I don't have an axe to grind, I have data, you should try a more evidence based view as opposed to cherry picking from the most Op faction to try and justify the broken as gak things in your own faction.

I'm basing it on your spreadsheet in general discussion, Tau arn't even remotely in the top of the win percentages by primary and secondary faction table.
Tau avarage a 27% win rate
Drukari Assurani are 60% win rate
Drukari are 33%

Drones are pretty worthless if you have ignore LOS weapons. Or fast units with high ROF. Or if the drones are in the open - they are REALLY easy to kill.

Bharring wrote:
.... you're grossly overstating what they do.

As Eldar players, we really should be used to this, unfortunately. Eldar are indeed a good army, but haters often either misunderstand what they can actually do, or intentionally over-exaggerate
When you are relying on 3-4 powers to go off, in my experience, SOMETHING ends up failing every single turn, or you don't have enough CPs to make it work

-

My problem (as a casual non Tournamant Tau Player) with Tau at the moment is that spamming riptides and drones is boring for me and unfun for my oponent.

I wish for serious internal balancing here like rework of weapons so that we have more speciallists and less one fits all purpose weapons like HBC and Ion Weapons.

Wouldnt wonder me if the false leak would be unintentional true for savior protocols hapening on 4+. It would be great if at the same time the pointcosts of our weaker suits and weapons would be reconsidered.

I like playing Tau more mobile with Piranhas and Ghostkeel and i realy would like to play (nonion)Krisissuits. I`m sure i will get disapointed :(

The comment that told me about shooting the drones: yes of course I must shoot the drones first. They are T4 with a 4++/5+++ though, needs a lot of firepower. And at said game my opponent grabbed first turn so my Hellblasters were just dead in one turn, I basically lost the game with that and I was bringing the best I could field with the models I own. Not saying I should have won, he played better and all, but also he just had more powerful units with wonky combos. And I thought I could be mean with my Ancient + 10 Hellblasters + Lt + Master.

 Hulksmash wrote:
And you've been wrong for a full year now. You also oddly left off a couple of major units;

-1+/3++ Bulgryn with a -1 to hit
-Shining Spears w/a 2+/3++ in shooting on top of a -1 to hit
-Flyers with their delightful -1/-2 to hit
-Magnus & Morty
-Riptides (thanks drones)

And I'm sure there are more that's just off the top of my head. MW are a good thing. They're at about the right number given the changes to smite as well. We don't want 40+ MW a turn like you can sometimes do in AoS but enough to help chip away and help those low power weapons is a good thing.

- 1+/3++ Bullgryns sacrifice having a 2+ save, require a Psychic power to be cast by a model without a casting bonus and not be denied, use a Stratagem and then either burn 2CP on first turn or have to hug cover (not good for a combat unit) to achieve it. Even then, they’re only a tough unit that still dies to things like Thunder Hammers, Rokkits and Helverin Autocannons. -1 to hit is a problem.
- 2+/3++ in shooting Shining Spears require a psychic power to be cast and not denied, and even once successful, at the end of the day they’re a T4 2W unit; they’re no harder to kill than Intercessors in cover with say an Autocannon. Or, since they’re a combat unit and hence want to be near you, hit them in close combat where they become just Space Marines. -1 to hit is a problem.
- Flyers with a -1/-2 to hit makes no mention of an invulnerable save, or even an armour save. -1/-2 to hit is a problem.
- I mentioned Magnus and Morty.
- Riptides with a 3++ are tough but hurt themselves to do it and give up on boosting their shooting, which they kinda need. The Shield Drones care not if it’s a bolt shell or a Mortal Wound.

Did you sense a theme? -1 to hit is a problem. Do you know what Mortal Wounds don’t solve? -1 to hit. Do you know what does solve -1 to hit? Auto-hitting weapons and powers, and usually close combat. Do you know what’s not a problem needing fixing? Good Invulnerable saves on expensive units.

------- ALL MK X GRAVIS ARMOR HAS 5++

(aggressors, inceptors )

kombatwombat wrote:

 Hulksmash wrote:
And you've been wrong for a full year now. You also oddly left off a couple of major units;

-1+/3++ Bulgryn with a -1 to hit
-Shining Spears w/a 2+/3++ in shooting on top of a -1 to hit
-Flyers with their delightful -1/-2 to hit
-Magnus & Morty
-Riptides (thanks drones)

And I'm sure there are more that's just off the top of my head. MW are a good thing. They're at about the right number given the changes to smite as well. We don't want 40+ MW a turn like you can sometimes do in AoS but enough to help chip away and help those low power weapons is a good thing.

- 1+/3++ Bullgryns sacrifice having a 2+ save, require a Psychic power to be cast by a model without a casting bonus and not be denied, use a Stratagem and then either burn 2CP on first turn or have to hug cover (not good for a combat unit) to achieve it. Even then, they’re only a tough unit that still dies to things like Thunder Hammers, Rokkits and Helverin Autocannons. -1 to hit is a problem.
- 2+/3++ in shooting Shining Spears require a psychic power to be cast and not denied, and even once successful, at the end of the day they’re a T4 2W unit; they’re no harder to kill than Intercessors in cover with say an Autocannon. Or, since they’re a combat unit and hence want to be near you, hit them in close combat where they become just Space Marines. -1 to hit is a problem.
- Flyers with a -1/-2 to hit makes no mention of an invulnerable save, or even an armour save. -1/-2 to hit is a problem.
- I mentioned Magnus and Morty.
- Riptides with a 3++ are tough but hurt themselves to do it and give up on boosting their shooting, which they kinda need. The Shield Drones care not if it’s a bolt shell or a Mortal Wound.

Did you sense a theme? -1 to hit is a problem. Do you know what Mortal Wounds don’t solve? -1 to hit. Do you know what does solve -1 to hit? Auto-hitting weapons and powers, and usually close combat. Do you know what’s not a problem needing fixing? Good Invulnerable saves on expensive units.

Sigh...Mortals wounds actually does help with the negative modifiers but honestly you're responses to two of the most resilient units in the game tells me a lot about why you're wrong. Bulgryn have a 1+ without touching terrain or 0+ if they do. They don't die to anything not designed to kill a tank on round one and even then it's not super likely. After that wanna guess how many rokkits it takes to kill one in shooting? Or a Helverin? Even without negatives to hit let alone bolter equivalents.Your response to shining spears tells me you either a) haven't played a good ynarri player or b) don't play with much terrain. Maybe both. Moving 20" multiple times means they don't care about being "near" you. For flyers I don't know what you're talking about, MW are generally one of the best options for flyers. MW help with Riptides because of drones. Smite less so but sniper MW is great against Riptide. Not because of a 3++ but because you can't shift mortals to drones. See how that works?

Honestly man, I feel like we don't play the same game and we may not given how much depends on local scenarios/terrain/etc. But I can tell you that mortals are a part of the game that has a place. Just because you fail to understand that place doesn't mean it doesn't exist

Gunrunner1775 wrote:
------- ALL MK X GRAVIS ARMOR HAS 5++

(aggressors, inceptors )

Is this a rumor or a statement?

Because I know that they currently do not have an invuln, so I'm guessing this is a rumor which is super cool. But basically confirms Gravis is new Terminator armour unfortunately

its a rumor, hope its true, almost new terminator armor.. terms still have 2+/5++ .. while if this change is true, then gravis is T5 with 3+/5++

Gunrunner1775 wrote:
------- ALL MK X GRAVIS ARMOR HAS 5++

(aggressors, inceptors )

I hope this is true. It still makes it different from Terminator armor, but it also makes Gravis pretty decent. Now, my four squads of Gravis Marines will be even better!

*Laughs in Aggressor*

 Hulksmash wrote:

kombatwombat wrote:

 Hulksmash wrote:
And you've been wrong for a full year now. You also oddly left off a couple of major units;

-1+/3++ Bulgryn with a -1 to hit
-Shining Spears w/a 2+/3++ in shooting on top of a -1 to hit
-Flyers with their delightful -1/-2 to hit
-Magnus & Morty
-Riptides (thanks drones)

And I'm sure there are more that's just off the top of my head. MW are a good thing. They're at about the right number given the changes to smite as well. We don't want 40+ MW a turn like you can sometimes do in AoS but enough to help chip away and help those low power weapons is a good thing.

- 1+/3++ Bullgryns sacrifice having a 2+ save, require a Psychic power to be cast by a model without a casting bonus and not be denied, use a Stratagem and then either burn 2CP on first turn or have to hug cover (not good for a combat unit) to achieve it. Even then, they’re only a tough unit that still dies to things like Thunder Hammers, Rokkits and Helverin Autocannons. -1 to hit is a problem.
- 2+/3++ in shooting Shining Spears require a psychic power to be cast and not denied, and even once successful, at the end of the day they’re a T4 2W unit; they’re no harder to kill than Intercessors in cover with say an Autocannon. Or, since they’re a combat unit and hence want to be near you, hit them in close combat where they become just Space Marines. -1 to hit is a problem.
- Flyers with a -1/-2 to hit makes no mention of an invulnerable save, or even an armour save. -1/-2 to hit is a problem.
- I mentioned Magnus and Morty.
- Riptides with a 3++ are tough but hurt themselves to do it and give up on boosting their shooting, which they kinda need. The Shield Drones care not if it’s a bolt shell or a Mortal Wound.

Did you sense a theme? -1 to hit is a problem. Do you know what Mortal Wounds don’t solve? -1 to hit. Do you know what does solve -1 to hit? Auto-hitting weapons and powers, and usually close combat. Do you know what’s not a problem needing fixing? Good Invulnerable saves on expensive units.

Sigh...Mortals wounds actually does help with the negative modifiers but honestly you're responses to two of the most resilient units in the game tells me a lot about why you're wrong. Bulgryn have a 1+ without touching terrain or 0+ if they do. They don't die to anything not designed to kill a tank on round one and even then it's not super likely. After that wanna guess how many rokkits it takes to kill one in shooting? Or a Helverin? Even without negatives to hit let alone bolter equivalents.Your response to shining spears tells me you either a) haven't played a good ynarri player or b) don't play with much terrain. Maybe both. Moving 20" multiple times means they don't care about being "near" you. For flyers I don't know what you're talking about, MW are generally one of the best options for flyers. MW help with Riptides because of drones. Smite less so but sniper MW is great against Riptide. Not because of a 3++ but because you can't shift mortals to drones. See how that works?

Honestly man, I feel like we don't play the same game and we may not given how much depends on local scenarios/terrain/etc. But I can tell you that mortals are a part of the game that has a place. Just because you fail to understand that place doesn't mean it doesn't exist

That's not how drones currently work though. They can absolutely tank against snipers and their mortal wounds. Unless you are saying snipers don't make attacks with ranged or melee weapons.The new errata doesn't say anything about mortal wounds being untankable.

Gunrunner1775 wrote:
its a rumor, hope its true, almost new terminator armor.. terms still have 2+/5++ .. while if this change is true, then gravis is T5 with 3+/5++

I agree it'll be nice

Where did you spy this gem?

My army's gimmick is Azrael surrounded by gravis dudes soaking up the 4++ and let me tell you it's good folks

 Hulksmash wrote:
Sigh...Mortals wounds actually does help with the negative modifiers but honestly you're responses to two of the most resilient units in the game tells me a lot about why you're wrong.

They do? Oh wow thanks for the tip! Next time I’m facing an Eldar flyer with -3 to hit I’ll be sure to bring a Soulburner Petard, because Mortal Wounds help counter negatives to hit!


Negatives to hit are countered by auto-hits, not Mortal Wounds. The most common source of Mortal Wounds (psychic powers) auto-hit. That does not mean MWs counter negatives to hit. Autohits are the key thing here, whether they cause MWs or have a weapon profile.

Bulgryn have a 1+ without touching terrain or 0+ if they do. They don't die to anything not designed to kill a tank on round one and even then it's not super likely. After that wanna guess how many rokkits it takes to kill one in shooting? Or a Helverin? Even without negatives to hit let alone bolter equivalents.Your response to shining spears tells me you either a) haven't played a good ynarri player or b) don't play with much terrain. Maybe both. Moving 20" multiple times means they don't care about being "near" you. For flyers I don't know what you're talking about, MW are generally one of the best options for flyers. MW help with Riptides because of drones. Smite less so but sniper MW is great against Riptide. Not because of a 3++ but because you can't shift mortals to drones. See how that works?

Honestly man, I feel like we don't play the same game and we may not given how much depends on local scenarios/terrain/etc. But I can tell you that mortals are a part of the game that has a place. Just because you fail to understand that place doesn't mean it doesn't exist

Can you explain to me how you’re getting a Bullgryn with a 0+ save and a 3++? My understanding of Bullgryns is they either get a Slabshield for +2 to their armour save, making it a 2+ which can be made into a 1+ with cover, 0+ with the Take Cover! Stratagem and even a -1 armour save with Psychic Barrier, but no Invul save. OR they get a Brute Shield, lending them a 4++. With cover, Take Cover! and Psychic Shield they end up at 1+/3++ as I said in my previous post. Which is tough, yes, but I mean, good? They’re paying for durability and they’re durable without being indestructible?

To do any significant damage Shining Spears have to reach combat. Reaching combat means they’re close to me at the end of their turn. That means I can shoot and/or charge them. If I’m worried about triggering Strength from Death then I make sure the Spears are the first unit to die. Flyers see above about Soulburner Petards.

Riptides and drones somebody has beaten me to it, but if I shoot at a Riptide, it doesn’t matter if I fire a bolt shell at it or a Mortal Wound; the drone intercepts it and has to try and make a 5+++.

You’re accusing me of not understanding or not playing the same game, but I’m concerned about your understanding of the rules for this game...

I really hope Chapter Approved does something about MWs. They’re not good for the game. But I don’t hold out much hope...

kombatwombat wrote:
Can you explain to me how you’re getting a Bullgryn with a 0+ save and a 3++? My understanding of Bullgryns is they either get a Slabshield for +2 to their armour save, making it a 2+ which can be made into a 1+ with cover, 0+ with the Take Cover! Stratagem and even a -1 armour save with Psychic Barrier, but no Invul save. OR they get a Brute Shield, lending them a 4++. With cover, Take Cover! and Psychic Shield they end up at 1+/3++ as I said in my previous post. Which is tough, yes, but I mean, good? They’re paying for durability and they’re durable without being indestructible?

Mix the shields.

But anyway here we have issue with bullgryns being too hard. Just like in 7th it wasn't invulnerable save that was problem but 2++ rerollable that was problem.

And in both cases MW's just suck as solution. Fix the problematic units rather than make stupid solution like MW. Claiming MW's are needed because of drukhari vehicles etc is silly. Those die just fine without MW's anyway. Sure lascannon spam might not be that effective but hey there's these things called high ROF -1/-2 AP multi damage med-S(ie 6+) weapons that make wonders on those. Don't just mindlessly spam lascannons and expect to vaporize everything. Do we next hear complains grots are broken because lascannon spam doesn't work vs them?

Grotesques? See how much they like autocannons, helverin guns or the kind. Anything that doesn't die to a bolter is broken? 5++ is not even particularly GOOD save...

Ice Can you mind providing some genuine evidence that Tau as a codex are getting rolled by Orks? That the Tau codex is worse than the Ork codex?

Tau have been one of the strongest mono armies for some time. Their only competition has been Guard. They also offer a hard counter to the scary facets of an Ork list.

This is evidenced by BCP statistics.

This chat is wildly off topic by the way. Where are those CA rumours at?

tneva82 wrote:
Mix the shields.

Sure, but then you have a unit of mixed -1+/no Invul and 1+/3++, not a 0+ save with an Invul. The way Wound allocation works this edition means that you can’t just throw all the high-AP stuff on the guy with the Invul and everything else on the guy with the -1+ save. Once a model is hurt it takes all the hits until it dies. I dunno, I don’t think I really disagree with you, just with the idea of the indestructible 0+ in cover/3++ Super Bullgryn.

And I mean, if you have a 0+ save, what benefit is a 3++ really getting you? The vast majority of weapons cap out at AP-3.

Bharring wrote:
"Rangers and flyers for a base -2 then it fairly east for them to force to to attack specific units for -3 they then have stratageums and pshycic powers for anything you do get to shoot at at minus 2 to hit anyway and a 5+ FNP."
They can only give *one* unit 5+ FNP. They can only give *one* unit Conceal. They can only give *one* unit LQR. So, unless there is only one unit on the board, you're grossly overstating what they do.

And, even then, all you have to do is get within 12” of the Rangers and wipe them out – especially if the only thing other than the Rangers on the table is flyers.

… But, we know that an Eldar force consists of more than just flyers and Rangers, so, you’ll always have several things to shoot at that don’t have -2 or -3 to hit.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gunrunner1775 wrote:
its a rumor, hope its true, almost new terminator armor.. terms still have 2+/5++ .. while if this change is true, then gravis is T5 with 3+/5++

I’d be pretty interested if this is true! But, the problem is, they still die pretty easily as the 5++ is only helping vs -3Ap weapons. That said, could potentially open up Iron Hands as a potentially viable option for Primaris.

It's perplexing that we had people viewing chapter approved at the Open and they voted how much improved GK were, but none of them have even put any of that info on the internet...

I can't imagine GW would have had an enforceable NDA for all those randos. Maybe they also only had a small section to show, but still...

 Daedalus81 wrote:
It's perplexing that we had people viewing chapter approved at the Open and they voted how much improved GK were, but none of them have even put any of that info on the internet...

I can't imagine GW would have had an enforceable NDA for all those randos. Maybe they also only had a small section to show, but still...

Yeah. The total lack of any information is bizarre.

I'm sure someone is just compiling the information is all. We will get our leaks soon.

Yes I know that this is just some random guy on the Internet relying some random stuff from a random FLGS employee, but please hear me out.

I was talking to one of my FLGS employee while picking up the 8th ed GK codex, and he said that from source that he trust and was right on a lot of the Ork stuff that GK are getting about a 20% points drop in CA.

Please, please take with salt and don't shoot the messenger.

 axisofentropy wrote:
My army's gimmick is Azrael surrounded by gravis dudes soaking up the 4++ and let me tell you it's good folks

No, no it is not good. Not against real armies.

Tried it against dark eldar soup. 3x ravagers kills 7 4++ t5 marines (without doom) on average (his killed all 10 of my aggressors) 8 ynarri dark reapers shooting twice kill 8 more (there go the hell blasters) and then his 3x hemlocks come up and kill whatever else was in that bubble.

Or against the Knight list where endless furry kills all of your aggressors and then the castillan shoots whatever's left.

There are too many good ap -2+ d2+ weapons out there as it stands now for primaris to live.

And no, out of LOS doesn't work because with 14+" movement on a lot of the weapons with 48" range it's so easy to get an angle to one bit of a model in a unit to shoot the whole thing off the board.

The only safe primaris are those in deepstrike or intercessors who you don't are about getting shot. If primaris get a cheaper transport they can ride in they may be viable but at the moment with the meta as it is they are not good units.