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Aaranis wrote: I would be happy if there was a way for my DA to counter 3x Riptides with their 3++ and shield drones
helblasters with weapons of the new dark age tends to work quite well form most DA players. Also if they are nova charging their shields they arn't getting maximum shooting at you.
Given Tau as a Codex are still getting rolled by Aeldari Soup, Choas soup, Imperial Soup and Orks they arn't exactlly in a possition to survive much if any CA nerfing. The real issue is GW hasn't committed ti primaris or not so no loyalist codex is actually fully functional.
You seem to be missing the drones, and there is no way a DA player is going to get a shot in on a riptide with shield drones about. Also the part about the various soup flavors is pure deflection, and more than moderately untrue. Tau have the most Wins out of any single faction codex, and perform better than many soup configurations.
You want to link some geniune evidence rather than just nah bruv soup is deflection.
You shoot the drone first, people do it all the time your seriously trying to say Tau are ahead of the ork codex?
Than the -3 to hit ALITOC army of eldar or 4++ Harliquins?
Sounds like you just have a unjustified axe to grind.
Ice Can you mind providing some genuine evidence that Tau as a codex are getting rolled by Orks? That the Tau codex is worse than the Ork codex?
Tau have been one of the strongest mono armies for some time. Their only competition has been Guard. They also offer a hard counter to the scary facets of an Ork list.
This is evidenced by BCP statistics.
This chat is wildly off topic by the way. Where are those CA rumours at?
If you look at the head-to-head stats for Orks vs Tau the Orks were coming out slightly ahead (54% or so) even before the codex dropped. There is no reason to think Orks got worse with the codex, if they were really strong against T'au post-codex it would not really be a shock as that was a decent match-up for Orks even when their overall performance was not good.
What dooms Orks if those stats are to be believed are Imperial Knights, a sub-5% win ratio against one of the more common factions out there is horrible. Clearly IK have (or had) a hard counter to Orks.
This is one of the reasons why balancing a complex game is so hard - if IK were nerfed enough that they became rare then Orks would suddenly jump up the rankings without any particular change to Orks themselves . T'au on the other hand are about 50/50 against IK so if the Knights got nerfed it would make almost no difference to the T'au win rate. Other than the Castellan I am not really expecting any nerf to IK - although like everyone else I am just waiting on some proper rumours now.
DA azreal/dark shroud build is basically the best marines can do as a solo force.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
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axisofentropy wrote: My army's gimmick is Azrael surrounded by gravis dudes soaking up the 4++ and let me tell you it's good folks
No, no it is not good. Not against real armies.
Tried it against dark eldar soup. 3x ravagers kills 7 4++ t5 marines (without doom) on average (his killed all 10 of my aggressors) 8 ynarri dark reapers shooting twice kill 8 more (there go the hell blasters) and then his 3x hemlocks come up and kill whatever else was in that bubble.
Or against the Knight list where endless furry kills all of your aggressors and then the castillan shoots whatever's left.
There are too many good ap -2+ d2+ weapons out there as it stands now for primaris to live.
And no, out of LOS doesn't work because with 14+" movement on a lot of the weapons with 48" range it's so easy to get an angle to one bit of a model in a unit to shoot the whole thing off the board.
The only safe primaris are those in deepstrike or intercessors who you don't are about getting shot. If primaris get a cheaper transport they can ride in they may be viable but at the moment with the meta as it is they are not good units.
Yup. Triple Riptide player got the first turn, he shot all my Hellblasters, then my turn I drop my 12 Inceptors, kill almost nothing, then they die and so on. Sometimes we're just powerless.
Kervin wrote: Yes I know that this is just some random guy on the Internet relying some random stuff from a random FLGS employee, but please hear me out.
I was talking to one of my FLGS employee while picking up the 8th ed GK codex, and he said that from source that he trust and was right on a lot of the Ork stuff that GK are getting about a 20% points drop in CA.
Please, please take with salt and don't shoot the messenger.
Got to agree - space marines in general are having a rough time due to several factors, the new AP system really neutered their 3+ armour. We all know this. However, my biggest gripe is the far too abundant D2 or more weapons with -2AP or more. It was bad at the start but got worse.
Like, how are you meant to survive when armies can spam those weapons with impunity?
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Dr. Mills wrote: Got to agree - space marines in general are having a rough time due to several factors, the new AP system really neutered their 3+ armour. We all know this. However, my biggest gripe is the far too abundant D2 or more weapons with -2AP or more. It was bad at the start but got worse.
Like, how are you meant to survive when armies can spam those weapons with impunity?
That assumes that GW's plan isn't just to have Marines be just an OK army in casual play.
It's more profitable for them to allow people to get started with primaris then progress to another faction when they want an army with more depth, especially with the allies rules as they are, that transition can be gradual instead a hard change over.
axisofentropy wrote: My army's gimmick is Azrael surrounded by gravis dudes soaking up the 4++ and let me tell you it's good folks
No, no it is not good. Not against real armies.
Tried it against dark eldar soup. 3x ravagers kills 7 4++ t5 marines (without doom) on average (his killed all 10 of my aggressors) 8 ynarri dark reapers shooting twice kill 8 more (there go the hell blasters) and then his 3x hemlocks come up and kill whatever else was in that bubble.
Or against the Knight list where endless furry kills all of your aggressors and then the castillan shoots whatever's left.
There are too many good ap -2+ d2+ weapons out there as it stands now for primaris to live.
And no, out of LOS doesn't work because with 14+" movement on a lot of the weapons with 48" range it's so easy to get an angle to one bit of a model in a unit to shoot the whole thing off the board.
The only safe primaris are those in deepstrike or intercessors who you don't are about getting shot. If primaris get a cheaper transport they can ride in they may be viable but at the moment with the meta as it is they are not good units.
As long as 40k continues to be Igoyougo this will be an all too common issue. A system where one player gets to move shoot their entire force before the opponent is going to result in 1 player fighting an up hill battle that they can rarely recover from.
The best solution to fix this is to adopt an alternative activation system. 40k has had this issue since as long as I have played (2nd edition), and it is still not being addressed.
Ravagers with Disinterestors should not be your measure of what something should be good against, seeing that they're absurd and they're likely gonna be toned down in Chapter Approved.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
It's really time for some fracking leaks. Is CA even going to come out in December? GW has been so quiet about it, as have all the anons that have "supposedly" seen CA. The rumor threads are just full of wishlisting and frustrated people at this point
Gryphonne wrote: It's really time for some fracking leaks. Is CA even going to come out in December? GW has been so quiet about it, as have all the anons that have "supposedly" seen CA. The rumor threads are just full of wishlisting and frustrated people at this point
Yeah, seriously. I'm getting so grumpy I'm starting a The 9th Age Warhammer army.
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Gryphonne wrote: It's really time for some fracking leaks. Is CA even going to come out in December? GW has been so quiet about it, as have all the anons that have "supposedly" seen CA. The rumor threads are just full of wishlisting and frustrated people at this point
Yeah, seriously. I'm getting so grumpy I'm starting a The 9th Age Warhammer army.
Not sure why they haven't been doing more of a lead-up to CA. It's not like they gain anything by it being secret. Everyone who cares enough to be interested in previews is already holding back their purchases until they get confirmation of what's changing.
Gryphonne wrote: It's really time for some fracking leaks. Is CA even going to come out in December? GW has been so quiet about it, as have all the anons that have "supposedly" seen CA. The rumor threads are just full of wishlisting and frustrated people at this point
Yeah, seriously. I'm getting so grumpy I'm starting a The 9th Age Warhammer army.
Not sure why they haven't been doing more of a lead-up to CA. It's not like they gain anything by it being secret. Everyone who cares enough to be interested in previews is already holding back their purchases until they get confirmation of what's changing.
It's also keeping some folks (me) from deciding what to play at a big event that's the first weekend in January.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Ravagers with Disinterestors should not be your measure of what something should be good against, seeing that they're absurd and they're likely gonna be toned down in Chapter Approved.
But similar weapons are in abundance everywhere. Even orks can do that. T5/3+/4++/2w? No worries. If i faced 2x10 of those 2 would in average survive lootas
alextroy wrote: Geeze people. GW's Preview pattern is pretty consistent at this point. If the release date is December 15 as rumored the schedule will be:
Announce the Preorder Date two Sundays before release: December 2
Previews the week after announcement: December 3 - 7
Preorder 1 Week before Release: December 8
So, wait for Monday and you should get some Previews that will not really satisfy your lust for a full spoiler of the CA Points revisions.
This post is too rational, please amplify the screeching like everyone else.
Stormonu wrote: For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
chimeara wrote: It's also keeping some folks (me) from deciding what to play at a big event that's the first weekend in January.
Is the event not doing the sensible thing of saying "No material released within 30 days of the event will be used.", so people know what environment they'll be facing in advance?
Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.
Kanluwen wrote: This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.
Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army...
tneva82 wrote: You aren't even trying ty pretend for honest arqument. Open bad faith trolling.
- No reason to keep this here, unless people want to use it for something...
axisofentropy wrote: My army's gimmick is Azrael surrounded by gravis dudes soaking up the 4++ and let me tell you it's good folks
No, no it is not good. Not against real armies.
Tried it against dark eldar soup. 3x ravagers kills 7 4++ t5 marines (without doom) on average (his killed all 10 of my aggressors) 8 ynarri dark reapers shooting twice kill 8 more (there go the hell blasters) and then his 3x hemlocks come up and kill whatever else was in that bubble.
Or against the Knight list where endless furry kills all of your aggressors and then the castillan shoots whatever's left.
There are too many good ap -2+ d2+ weapons out there as it stands now for primaris to live.
And no, out of LOS doesn't work because with 14+" movement on a lot of the weapons with 48" range it's so easy to get an angle to one bit of a model in a unit to shoot the whole thing off the board.
The only safe primaris are those in deepstrike or intercessors who you don't are about getting shot. If primaris get a cheaper transport they can ride in they may be viable but at the moment with the meta as it is they are not good units.
As long as 40k continues to be Igoyougo this will be an all too common issue. A system where one player gets to move shoot their entire force before the opponent is going to result in 1 player fighting an up hill battle that they can rarely recover from.
The best solution to fix this is to adopt an alternative activation system. 40k has had this issue since as long as I have played (2nd edition), and it is still not being addressed.
This. Nobody - not even GW - would design a game from scratch with igoyougo now. Games like necromunda, kill team and AT have ditched it, as has AoS... kind of.
That said it is also true that there are too many good 2 damage weapons right now. The problem isn’t just that they are great against primaris. They are great against everything, so you may as well put them on every hardpoint. And then you have loads of them. This is what makes primaris get really badly screwed.
My IK army runs four avenger Gatling cannons at 1750 sometimes (and not much else) because hordes seem to be the only actual problem for knights. A side effect of that is that I can easily kill 15-20 primaris a turn, and I haven’t even designed the army to do so.
axisofentropy wrote: My army's gimmick is Azrael surrounded by gravis dudes soaking up the 4++ and let me tell you it's good folks
No, no it is not good. Not against real armies.
Tried it against dark eldar soup. 3x ravagers kills 7 4++ t5 marines (without doom) on average (his killed all 10 of my aggressors) 8 ynarri dark reapers shooting twice kill 8 more (there go the hell blasters) and then his 3x hemlocks come up and kill whatever else was in that bubble.
Or against the Knight list where endless furry kills all of your aggressors and then the castillan shoots whatever's left.
There are too many good ap -2+ d2+ weapons out there as it stands now for primaris to live.
And no, out of LOS doesn't work because with 14+" movement on a lot of the weapons with 48" range it's so easy to get an angle to one bit of a model in a unit to shoot the whole thing off the board.
The only safe primaris are those in deepstrike or intercessors who you don't are about getting shot. If primaris get a cheaper transport they can ride in they may be viable but at the moment with the meta as it is they are not good units.
As long as 40k continues to be Igoyougo this will be an all too common issue. A system where one player gets to move shoot their entire force before the opponent is going to result in 1 player fighting an up hill battle that they can rarely recover from.
The best solution to fix this is to adopt an alternative activation system. 40k has had this issue since as long as I have played (2nd edition), and it is still not being addressed.
This. Nobody - not even GW - would design a game from scratch with igoyougo now. Games like necromunda, kill team and AT have ditched it, as has AoS... kind of.
That said it is also true that there are too many good 2 damage weapons right now. The problem isn’t just that they are great against primaris. They are great against everything, so you may as well put them on every hardpoint. And then you have loads of them. This is what makes primaris get really badly screwed.
My IK army runs four avenger Gatling cannons at 1750 sometimes (and not much else) because hordes seem to be the only actual problem for knights. A side effect of that is that I can easily kill 15-20 primaris a turn, and I haven’t even designed the army to do so.
Well there are allround weapons that should not be allround weapons and there are allround weapons that are allround weapons and are not good enough: F.E: Missile Launchers, Nade Launchers and autocannons comparatively to Plasma guns, dissys, etc. I also think that either comes down to the rather poorer alternative firing mode (d3 damage for krak nades) or d6 shots without any modifyer at s4 for the missile launcher compared to the better firing modes for PG's. Not to mention that krak nades on the nade launcher are assult 1 which makes it quite uninteresting.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/11/30 09:18:08
Mandragola wrote: This. Nobody - not even GW - would design a game from scratch with igoyougo now. Games like necromunda, kill team and AT have ditched it, as has AoS... kind of.
While unlikely, it's not entirely impossible for 9th to adapt killteams' semi-IGOYOUGO. If you are bored try playing a game of 40k with KT's turn structure, it's doesn't play too bad.
Gryphonne wrote: It's really time for some fracking leaks. Is CA even going to come out in December? GW has been so quiet about it, as have all the anons that have "supposedly" seen CA. The rumor threads are just full of wishlisting and frustrated people at this point
Yeah...so quiet. I mean, it's been like 6 days since they last said something about it!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/11/30 09:57:02
Gryphonne wrote: It's really time for some fracking leaks. Is CA even going to come out in December? GW has been so quiet about it, as have all the anons that have "supposedly" seen CA. The rumor threads are just full of wishlisting and frustrated people at this point
Yeah...so quiet. I mean, it's been like 6 days since they last said something about it!
and don't forget pax is this weekend, so we might be hearing some more there
If the rumoured 15th Dec date is true (and it seems likely, given how many release dates are left this year) then we should see CA previews from this Sunday.
Mandragola wrote: This. Nobody - not even GW - would design a game from scratch with igoyougo now. Games like necromunda, kill team and AT have ditched it, as has AoS... kind of.
While unlikely, it's not entirely impossible for 9th to adapt killteams' semi-IGOYOUGO. If you are bored try playing a game of 40k with KT's turn structure, it's doesn't play too bad.
It actually plays quite great. The issue that'd need rebalancing are stratagems and their cost. With a limited but regenrating CP pool some stratagems (especially those at low cost) are just too powerful, while the others will rarely (if at all) see the play. And Orks are loosing their gimmick with autohitting on 6s, as everyone has access to this rule (like it should be anyway IMO).
Mandragola wrote: This. Nobody - not even GW - would design a game from scratch with igoyougo now. Games like necromunda, kill team and AT have ditched it, as has AoS... kind of.
While unlikely, it's not entirely impossible for 9th to adapt killteams' semi-IGOYOUGO. If you are bored try playing a game of 40k with KT's turn structure, it's doesn't play too bad.
It actually plays quite great. The issue that'd need rebalancing are stratagems and their cost. With a limited but regenrating CP pool some stratagems (especially those at low cost) are just too powerful, while the others will rarely (if at all) see the play. And Orks are loosing their gimmick with autohitting on 6s, as everyone has access to this rule (like it should be anyway IMO).
I think that he was suggesting to use only the turn structure from kill team, not the full rules.
chimeara wrote: It's also keeping some folks (me) from deciding what to play at a big event that's the first weekend in January.
Is the event not doing the sensible thing of saying "No material released within 30 days of the event will be used.", so people know what environment they'll be facing in advance?
Yes, with the exception of CA. It will be used regardless of release date.
Mandragola wrote: This. Nobody - not even GW - would design a game from scratch with igoyougo now. Games like necromunda, kill team and AT have ditched it, as has AoS... kind of.
While unlikely, it's not entirely impossible for 9th to adapt killteams' semi-IGOYOUGO. If you are bored try playing a game of 40k with KT's turn structure, it's doesn't play too bad.
It actually plays quite great. The issue that'd need rebalancing are stratagems and their cost. With a limited but regenrating CP pool some stratagems (especially those at low cost) are just too powerful, while the others will rarely (if at all) see the play. And Orks are loosing their gimmick with autohitting on 6s, as everyone has access to this rule (like it should be anyway IMO).
I think that he was suggesting to use only the turn structure from kill team, not the full rules.
Yes this. Full killteam rules don't work armies of that size. Basically one player moves/charges/aims all their units, then the other player does the same, then you alternate between each other for casting powers, shooting and fighting. Everything else stays 40k.
Dr. Mills wrote: Got to agree - space marines in general are having a rough time due to several factors, the new AP system really neutered their 3+ armour. We all know this. However, my biggest gripe is the far too abundant D2 or more weapons with -2AP or more. It was bad at the start but got worse.
That's true, but they are also more resilient to those weapons that were AP3 or AP2. I used to fire rokkits to SM because they could bypass the save and (instant) kill them on 2s but now SM get a 5+ save against them, even 4+ if they are in cover. Against the former AP2 weapons they still have a 6+ save. Not a big deal but better than nothing. Only weapons that were AP4 and AP5 became better against SM. I honestly don't see a huge spam of those weapons. Some of them, like orks' big shootas and dakkaguns even lost the AP completely dropping from "ignore 5+ saves" to AP-.
Even the hated disintegrator cannons allow a save against marines while in the past they wouldn't get any save against them.
D2 also hurts multiwounds models, also true, but note that things like termies or bikes were 1W in the past.
I don't think SM have a durability problem. They are just designed to be the weakest version of AM, a pure shooting army with less ranged punch than other shooting oriented armies, including (especially) allied ones.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/11/30 12:48:47
Dr. Mills wrote: Got to agree - space marines in general are having a rough time due to several factors, the new AP system really neutered their 3+ armour. We all know this. However, my biggest gripe is the far too abundant D2 or more weapons with -2AP or more. It was bad at the start but got worse.
That's true, but they are also more resilient to those weapons that were AP3 or AP2. I used to fire rokkits to SM because they could bypass the save and (instant) kill them on 2s but now SM get a 5+ save against them, even 4+ if they are in cover. Against the former AP2 weapons they still have a 6+ save. Not a big deal but better than nothing. Only weapons that were AP4 and AP5 became better against SM. I honestly don't see a huge spam of those weapons. Some of them, like orks' big shootas and dakkaguns even lost the AP completely dropping from "ignore 5+ saves" to AP-.
Even the hated disintegrator cannons allow a save against marines while in the past they wouldn't get any save against them.
D2 also hurts multiwounds models, also true, but note that things like termies or bikes were 1W in the past.
I don't think SM have a durability problem. They are just designed to be the weakest version of AM, a pure shooting army with less ranged punch than other shooting oriented armies, including (especially) allied ones.
All of this. People forget that the vast majority of AP-2 and -3 weapons now used to be AP3 and AP2 in 7th, so space marines would have had no save at all against them then whilst they at least get something now. As for the old AP5 weapons, ost of them are AP0 now so thats more a case of no change. It's the old AP4 weapons that have really gained going to AP-1, but thats pretty fair as AP4 was seen as functionally useless for a couple of editions now and a n Autocannon really should have a chance at punching through power armour.
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