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tneva82 wrote:
Another bonus: Less issues with morale with 2x5. Are there any strategems flash gits would like to use? Those encourage deathstar style aka 25 lootas but don't recall top of my head anything flash gits would be dying to use. More dakka if facing -1 or more when you need to move in range but that's rather specific case...

edit: Grot screen. That's the one purpose to have 10 unit. With 2x5 you will get unit of 5 wiped out without grot screens to help them. Another would be loot it.

With also bustas on the board I don't think grot screen would help that much the gitz as the tank hunters would be priority target for sure. Loot it is a good point instead, but I think having less issues to morale and better BS thanks to the additional kaptin is superior to the eventual +1 save for 1 CP given to only 5 dudes instead of 10. Not to mention than the 10 man squad may want to split fire and some shots could be wasted anyway.


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tneva82 wrote:


OTOH on big plain boards opponent has good time to shoot with no LOS blocking and in these knight heavy meta's...BW's are actually soft targets. People are gearing up to one shot castellans. That's equilavent of causing 84 wounds to T8. How many BW's that is?

I agree that going full mechanized is less efficient than going full green tide at very competitive levels but I don't think that the real competitive lists are built with the concept of 1-shotting the castellan, only fools do. A list with something than can reliably cause 84 W to T8 in a single turn of shooting is pretty much auto lose against many aeldari lists which are the other super cheesy top tiers and also green tides which are already recognized as competitive lists to have in mind when it comes to list building.

 Blackie wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Another bonus: Less issues with morale with 2x5. Are there any strategems flash gits would like to use? Those encourage deathstar style aka 25 lootas but don't recall top of my head anything flash gits would be dying to use. More dakka if facing -1 or more when you need to move in range but that's rather specific case...

edit: Grot screen. That's the one purpose to have 10 unit. With 2x5 you will get unit of 5 wiped out without grot screens to help them. Another would be loot it.

With also bustas on the board I don't think grot screen would help that much the gitz as the tank hunters would be priority target for sure. Loot it is a good point instead, but I think having less issues to morale and better BS thanks to the additional kaptin is superior to the eventual +1 save for 1 CP given to only 5 dudes instead of 10. Not to mention than the 10 man squad may want to split fire and some shots could be wasted anyway.

Not saying it's better. Just giving up the reasons why one might(in general and not just in this case) want 10 lootas.

Not sure what you mean about splitting. Apart from possibly wanting squads to be far away there's no difference with splitting/concentrating fire anyway and due to FB trait there's limit on splitting units far away you want anyway.

The comparison was to 2x5 or 10 in the same trukk, so all the gitz in the same place anyway.

10 dudes fire at the same target, some shots could be wasted in overkill. They may have to declare split fire in advance to avoid that which may be a total wrong estimate. It's easier to limit overkill if you have two separate squads.

2x5 are also more useful for triggering the trait. First squad kills an enemy unit, second one get the +1 to hit. Maybe mek gunz can't manage to kill a unit themselves so 2x5 are actually more deadly than the big squad.

 Blackie wrote:
T

2x5 are also more useful for triggering the trait. First squad kills an enemy unit, second one get the +1 to hit. Maybe mek gunz can't manage to kill a unit themselves so 2x5 are actually more deadly than the big squad.

Keep in mind, though, if they're in the trukk they can't trigger the trait. They can RECEIVE the +1 from someone outside their transport (because the trukk will get it, and then pass modifiers on to passengers via Open Top), but if the passengers get a kill, they aren't on the board so you can't measure from them so they can't give it to anyone.

Related question about Freeboota kulture - if I have a Kustom Boosta Blasta with multiple shooting weapons, and I destroy an enemy unit with my 4 burnas, do I get the freeboota +1 to my rivet kannon?

Add 1 to hit rolls for attacks made by models with this kultur if
any other friendly unit with this kultur within 24" has destroyed
an enemy unit this phase.

Key words are "any other friendly unit". So, no, a Unit can't trigger FB on themselves.

 DaisyWondercow wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
T

2x5 are also more useful for triggering the trait. First squad kills an enemy unit, second one get the +1 to hit. Maybe mek gunz can't manage to kill a unit themselves so 2x5 are actually more deadly than the big squad.

Keep in mind, though, if they're in the trukk they can't trigger the trait. They can RECEIVE the +1 from someone outside their transport (because the trukk will get it, and then pass modifiers on to passengers via Open Top), but if the passengers get a kill, they aren't on the board so you can't measure from them so they can't give it to anyone.

Related question about Freeboota kulture - if I have a Kustom Boosta Blasta with multiple shooting weapons, and I destroy an enemy unit with my 4 burnas, do I get the freeboota +1 to my rivet kannon?

Can't we measure from the trukk?

Embarked Units aren't considered to be on the field. So if they "trigger an ability" you can't measure from them. I think there's an FAQ out there that states this.

Can I Mob up a unit with another unit which is teleported in, in the same turn?

Both stratagems describe the actions (combining the unit / deploying the unit on the board) to happen 'at the end of your movement phase', so are there any further restrictions to which happens first?

Hey guys

So I finally actually played a game with the new codex, after the local meta spent all december either on "work saturdays" or "kids home sick" every time I asked for a game.

List

Deffskulls brigade
- bike boss (power klaw, killa klaw, brutal but kunnin)
- SAG
- SAG
- 30 boyz with stuff
- 5x 10 grots
- 3x lone Shokkjump Dragsta
- 3x lone KMB minimek
- 5x smasha gun
- 2x traktor kannon
- Bonebreaka

Bad Moonz battalion
- Weirdboy
- Weirdboy
- 3x 10 grots
- 15 tankbustas

Open war cards, got some silly mission with opponent in the middle, sitting on a single movable objective, and my army all around about 10" away.

Opponent was on Deathwatch (3 bikes, smash captain, 2 other random characters, plasma dudes, Corvus Blackstar, asscannon Razorback and 2 or 3 10-man mixed squads) plus a basic shooty Knight (gatling and melta) so not the best of lists. But it was fully painted close to display case standard!

He takes first turn and is very liberal with his flyer trajectory but I let is slide and he parks behind my lines and kills the bike boss. Knight and friends kill a few Mek Guns and a bunch of grots via shield going for the Tankbustas.

My T1 I just unleash the tactical genius of More Dakka and Showin' Off on the Tankbustas, and betwen them, the Dragstas and Mek Gunz the Knight and the Corvus are both left on 1 freakin' wound and I struggle to deal with them for the next 2 turns as the Knight charges my Tankbustas to tie them up. Here's the fun part, I completely forgot that Tankbustas re-roll hits vs vehicles. Both of those would have been smoking craters turn 1 for sure.

Anyway, his T2 he gets the freebie shooting phase with his Knight and Corvus, taking out most Mek Gunz and then charges the Tankbustas while his infantry is working its way through layer after layer of gretchin and takes out about half the boyz.
My T2 the Bonebreaka tellyports in, he uses some strategem to shoot it immediately and brackets it, but even down to D6+D6 attacks I Ramming Speed it in and run down a whole 10 man unit while some grots take the bullets to let the last boyz engage the other.

T3 is spent mostly grinding me down, then I finally take out the Knight and Corvus.

T4 is my remaining stuff (mostly 2 Dragstas, the SAGs and KMB meks) gunning down his characters like dogs as they try to pass around the Relic as a hot potato. He forfeits with something like half a squad of Intercessors left on the table.

My take away is

1) Remember your rules, I could have mopped up T2 if I remembered my re-rolls. I was very happy with everything in my army otherwise. Dragstas are perhaps the most unusual unit, but they worked out well. Their firepower is massive and they can deliver it anywhere at any time, and BS 3+ with Deffskull re-rolls means they can contend with supersonic craft easily enough.

2) If aircraft are in your opponents lines, use traktor kannon last. If aircraft are in your lines, use traktor kannon first. I messed it up and crashed the Corvus on my own head, killing a bunch of stuff.

Levski wrote:
Can I Mob up a unit with another unit which is teleported in, in the same turn?

Both stratagems describe the actions (combining the unit / deploying the unit on the board) to happen 'at the end of your movement phase', so are there any further restrictions to which happens first?

Yes, you can, due to the sequencing rule.

Will duplicate the message here.

Played a wierd 5x5 game. Meganobz and boyz were great. Kommandoes were also quite useful. Boyz even managed to hit something with a tankbusta bomb!
1v1 was basically won by turn 2 due to 1st turn charge and 2d turn meganob bomb also making it into combat. But than sw termies with 2 characters and a gk landraider came along. In the end 1367 pt of orks managed to kill like 2k pts of enemies and still had something left on the table.
Twas funny when 2 smashas overwatched a sw termie lord to death after 2 turns of doing absolutely nothing to castellan robots.

I'm trying to start a Freeboota list for a slo grow league. Freebootas Brigade should consist of;

Flash Gitz
Badrukk
Shoota Boyz
Tankbustas
Some Grotz
Mek Gunz
Bikerz or maybe some Koptas

All in some Battlewagonz and Trukk.. Right?

Going with a Brigade, you still need 2 more HQ. I'd suggest a Biker Boss (just cuz they're really strong) and a Weirdboy. Since you got the CP for it, make him a Warphead too and give him Fist of Gork and Da Jump. Everything else seems fine to me.

Since everyone's posting FB lists I didn't want to miss out of all the fun, so here's mine! yes I know it sucks.


Gist is to mob up the flash gitz and have the killa kan close by so when it pops they can loot it giving them a 3+/5++/6+++ plus the grot bubble wrap. Obviously gonna be using a command re-roll every turn to try and trigger their showin off rule, lol.

@flaming tadpole Do you put the killa next to the flash gitz so they can loot it when it blows up; so they get that sweet +2 armour while in cover?

How does mob-up work on units like nobs or gits that have ammo runts, or bustas with their squigs? Can you mob up a 10+2 with another 10+2, or would one of them need to be a 9+1 instead?

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Because of Knights you simply don't have any chance. Even a double tankbusta bomb can't put a dent in them. Your Biker Boss won't ever get close enough to melee the knights and the Lootas won't scratch the knights either.

This.
25 Lootas with More Dakka and Showing Off is liable to get about 8 wounds on a Knight with a 4+ save, or 6 wounds on a knight with a 3+ invuln. If you want to kill a Knight, you either have to do it in CQC or you have to get Tankbustas and use More Stikkbombs. (Ten Tankbustas with More Stikkbombs, Showin' Off, and More Dakka will one-shot a Castellan with a 3+ invuln. It'll also burn through four Command Points, but that's worth it to kill a Castellan.)

Also, it's a bad idea to take only a few units with Skarboyz. I love Skarboyz, they're great at chopping stuff to bits, but with only two squads you're going to be pretty vulnerable to having them focused down.

Mob up calls out for the unit size, and ammo runts/squigs are considered a model and take up space in a transport so thats a 12 unit, not a 10 unit.

Having played the new Speedfreek/buggy vehicles, I'm not impressed. Thanks to some generous family, I've got one of each, but each time I field them, I'm underwhelmed.

First is the cost. 100-120 points is a lot of the number of shots that they deliver, and their huge base makes it hard for the rest of the army to maneuver.

I've accompanied them with Bikerz, lootaz, tankbustaz, boyz, grotz, MANZ, and smashagunz in various combinations.

So.... am I missing something? Are they a unit where fielding 3 of one type makes them better? Is there a stratagem that I'm not considering? I really want to like them, but I'm finding it difficult to justify a place in the list for them.

The one with the Rivet Cannon seems the best one IMHO, but the rest are lackluster.

personally i love the megatrakk and shokkjump. Rest are sorta meh, though i seem to find it hard to not include a trike sometimes. Then again i run a lot of steel to begin with so that waaagh benefit is good enough reason to bring it.

Megatrakk has done a ton of damage for me pretty quickly. I imagine a trio of them would be dirty. Its probably the only one i actually want repeats of.

Waaaghpower wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Because of Knights you simply don't have any chance. Even a double tankbusta bomb can't put a dent in them. Your Biker Boss won't ever get close enough to melee the knights and the Lootas won't scratch the knights either.

This.
25 Lootas with More Dakka and Showing Off is liable to get about 8 wounds on a Knight with a 4+ save, or 6 wounds on a knight with a 3+ invuln. If you want to kill a Knight, you either have to do it in CQC or you have to get Tankbustas and use More Stikkbombs. (Ten Tankbustas with More Stikkbombs, Showin' Off, and More Dakka will one-shot a Castellan with a 3+ invuln. It'll also burn through four Command Points, but that's worth it to kill a Castellan.)

Also, it's a bad idea to take only a few units with Skarboyz. I love Skarboyz, they're great at chopping stuff to bits, but with only two squads you're going to be pretty vulnerable to having them focused down.

10 tank busta will also never get within range of knight that knows what they can do. Any transport will be one shotted and explosion alone will kill couple.

Skarboyz meanwhile suffer from lack of reliable way of getting into combat.


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 Geemoney wrote:
@flaming tadpole Do you put the killa next to the flash gitz so they can loot it when it blows up; so they get that sweet +2 armour while in cover?

Looks like it. Problem with that plan though is that one killa kan is such an insignificant threat it won't be bothered to be shot for a looong time. Especially with loot it strategem. Something that actually is threat would be better for that role.

Army will also get screwed when you don't get 1st turn and there's not enough LOS blocking or enemy has enough LOS ignoring weapons. One unit will get badly mauled minimum.

You can always loot a smasha gun....

The megatrakk I'd say is the best of the bunch, but still about 20pts overcosted imo. Right now there's literally no reason to take them over a squad of tankbustas in a trukk. Hopefully all the buggies get a big point drop in the next CA.


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 Geemoney wrote:
@flaming tadpole Do you put the killa next to the flash gitz so they can loot it when it blows up; so they get that sweet +2 armour while in cover?

You know it dude

 Geemoney wrote:
You can always loot a smasha gun....

Precisely. Have several of those nearby. LOT more likely to be targeted than killa kan. Killa kan? Opponent will go "zzzz" at the threat that thing poses. Firepower taken at killa kan would be more useful at shooting flash gits grot screen or not!

tneva82 wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Because of Knights you simply don't have any chance. Even a double tankbusta bomb can't put a dent in them. Your Biker Boss won't ever get close enough to melee the knights and the Lootas won't scratch the knights either.

This.
25 Lootas with More Dakka and Showing Off is liable to get about 8 wounds on a Knight with a 4+ save, or 6 wounds on a knight with a 3+ invuln. If you want to kill a Knight, you either have to do it in CQC or you have to get Tankbustas and use More Stikkbombs. (Ten Tankbustas with More Stikkbombs, Showin' Off, and More Dakka will one-shot a Castellan with a 3+ invuln. It'll also burn through four Command Points, but that's worth it to kill a Castellan.)

Also, it's a bad idea to take only a few units with Skarboyz. I love Skarboyz, they're great at chopping stuff to bits, but with only two squads you're going to be pretty vulnerable to having them focused down.

10 tank busta will also never get within range of knight that knows what they can do. Any transport will be one shotted and explosion alone will kill couple.

Skarboyz meanwhile suffer from lack of reliable way of getting into combat.

That's why Orks are so cheap - You don't just run one. It's not that hard to bring three Battlewagons with Deff Rollas, three 10x squads of Tankbustas (with some Squig Bombs to boot, for fun and to soak up explosions as needed), and a Big Mek on a bike with a Kustom Force Field to help keep them healthy. I just threw together a sample list for fun, and managed to pack all that together into a Brigade that also had 90 Ork Boyz, three Deffkoptas to fill out the mandatory Fast Attack slot, and a nice Krumpy warboss. (I took three 10x boyz squads to soak up explosions instead of the Squig bombs, and one Tankbusta squad is nine-man so that the Warboss or the Weirdboy can ride inside if necessary.)
Obviously you can't do that AND take skarboyz, but if you do want to take Skarboyz you will be using 'Da Jump every turn to get 30 of your boyz up close and personal while the rest of the army runs ~9" up the board. With 180 boyz who all have 6+ FNP from a Painboy, it's hard to stop them all.

cheap in points (usually) but not cheap in pocketbook.
I imagine thats why i havnt seen anyone other than me even use the buggies. Nobody has the cash and they arent Tau/Eldar new toy level of good.

Wagons especially with the codex price drop are stupid cheap for what they do. Real money...not so much lol...

Part of the issue with orks is you need to amass so much of the same stuff to run them that you get a gigantic army super quick without really trying. No idea how i somehow ended up with nearly 10k of orks....i honestly dont know lol

edit: Added comment about Da Jump and Skar Boyz, honestly idont see any other way to use those boyz.
I did a 2v2 this weekend with another ork friend and he runs Goffs, i run Bad Moonz. He had no weirdboyz, he also didnt like them...until i noticed Da Jump isnt kulture-bound so i launched his skarboyz across the board and he instantly fell in love with those things lol. Hes a ancient ork player so hes used to weirdboyz being total trash.

tneva82 wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Geemoney wrote:
@flaming tadpole Do you put the killa next to the flash gitz so they can loot it when it blows up; so they get that sweet +2 armour while in cover?

Looks like it. Problem with that plan though is that one killa kan is such an insignificant threat it won't be bothered to be shot for a looong time. Especially with loot it strategem. Something that actually is threat would be better for that role.

You can always just drop a couple smasha's and upgrade it to a deff dread if you really think your opponent isn't going to shoot it. Majority of the time they're not gonna blink twice at sparing a couple guns to down a Kan as opposed to just wasting them on grots.

Army will also get screwed when you don't get 1st turn and there's not enough LOS blocking or enemy has enough LOS ignoring weapons. One unit will get badly mauled minimum.

That goes for the majority of ork lists. lootas have it worse than they do not getting first turn and they're still an auto-include in most lists.

tneva82 wrote:

 Geemoney wrote:
You can always loot a smasha gun....

Precisely. Have several of those nearby. LOT more likely to be targeted than killa kan. Killa kan? Opponent will go "zzzz" at the threat that thing poses. Firepower taken at killa kan would be more useful at shooting flash gits grot screen or not!

Good idea, but won't work. Flash gitz aren't going to be in range after the first turn and even if your opponent gets first turn and happens to pop one right next to the gitz only one squad is going to be able to use it.

The following is a big ask, I know, but if anyone has any suggestions you'd be doing an old Ork player a favor. A friend of mine is getting back into the game after several years (5th edition, more or less) and I told him I'd help him put together a list for an upcoming 2000 point tournament. Problem is, I play Sisters and don't know the first thing about Orks, other than Lootas can mob up and shoot things well and you have a wizard guy that jumps squads around the board. Anyhow, the following is roughly what he has, although he has time to paint up a few new things before the tournament as needed. If anyone wants to take a shot at coming up with decent list, here's what he has:

55 choppa boyz
36 shoota boys
40 lootas
14 commandos
16 burnas
12 mega nobs
10ish nob bikes
10 bikes
4 meks
16 gretchin
5 battle wagons
4 trucks
9 kans
1 dred
10 nobs with klaws
10 nobs on foot with assortment of other weapons
Several warbosses of various types

Thanks in advance!

Waaaghpower wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Because of Knights you simply don't have any chance. Even a double tankbusta bomb can't put a dent in them. Your Biker Boss won't ever get close enough to melee the knights and the Lootas won't scratch the knights either.

This.
25 Lootas with More Dakka and Showing Off is liable to get about 8 wounds on a Knight with a 4+ save, or 6 wounds on a knight with a 3+ invuln. If you want to kill a Knight, you either have to do it in CQC or you have to get Tankbustas and use More Stikkbombs. (Ten Tankbustas with More Stikkbombs, Showin' Off, and More Dakka will one-shot a Castellan with a 3+ invuln. It'll also burn through four Command Points, but that's worth it to kill a Castellan.)

Also, it's a bad idea to take only a few units with Skarboyz. I love Skarboyz, they're great at chopping stuff to bits, but with only two squads you're going to be pretty vulnerable to having them focused down.

10 tank busta will also never get within range of knight that knows what they can do. Any transport will be one shotted and explosion alone will kill couple.

Skarboyz meanwhile suffer from lack of reliable way of getting into combat.

That's why Orks are so cheap - You don't just run one. It's not that hard to bring three Battlewagons with Deff Rollas, three 10x squads of Tankbustas (with some Squig Bombs to boot, for fun and to soak up explosions as needed), and a Big Mek on a bike with a Kustom Force Field to help keep them healthy. I just threw together a sample list for fun, and managed to pack all that together into a Brigade that also had 90 Ork Boyz, three Deffkoptas to fill out the mandatory Fast Attack slot, and a nice Krumpy warboss. (I took three 10x boyz squads to soak up explosions instead of the Squig bombs, and one Tankbusta squad is nine-man so that the Warboss or the Weirdboy can ride inside if necessary.)
Obviously you can't do that AND take skarboyz, but if you do want to take Skarboyz you will be using 'Da Jump every turn to get 30 of your boyz up close and personal while the rest of the army runs ~9" up the board. With 180 boyz who all have 6+ FNP from a Painboy, it's hard to stop them all.

And then you lose against non knights with that tank busta skew list.

And da jump is not reliable way to bring skar boyz into combat...


And 180 boyz was hard to remove start of 8th ed. These days non optimized gunlines remove 60/turn. Bring anti horde army and 100 boyz is reasonable casualty rate.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 flaming tadpole wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Geemoney wrote:
@flaming tadpole Do you put the killa next to the flash gitz so they can loot it when it blows up; so they get that sweet +2 armour while in cover?

Looks like it. Problem with that plan though is that one killa kan is such an insignificant threat it won't be bothered to be shot for a looong time. Especially with loot it strategem. Something that actually is threat would be better for that role.

You can always just drop a couple smasha's and upgrade it to a deff dread if you really think your opponent isn't going to shoot it. Majority of the time they're not gonna blink twice at sparing a couple guns to down a Kan as opposed to just wasting them on grots.

Who's stupid enough to waste guns on teethless kan that is no concern and give your gits extra save? That's wasting guns making your army better...even shooting grots is better. Especially as you don'" waste lascannons vs kan but higher rof weapons. dead grots and flash gits is better than killing useless kan and making gits better.

Sure it works if opponent is stupid but counting on that is bad idea. Take out kan when you have taken out gits. Win win. That kan is worse than useless