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 Charistoph wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:Except it explicitly states that the Dolmen gates work by hijacking the webway. Which is a stupid way of travelling.
I don't mind it being used as a weapon, but as their only way of interstellar travel? Bugger off.

Inertialess drives were also used for interstellar travel. I believe it said as much in the 3rd ed codex.

Why is the Webway a stupid way to travel? Most of the advantages of the Warp with few of the problems. If the Dark Eldar can survive in their with an entire stellar system and not attract Slaanesh. The only issue is maintaining it, which the Eldar failed to do.

All and all, the Webway was still a far sight better traveling system than the slow go Torch Ships they used to use.

Wyzilla wrote:The criminal thing is that while copying Tomb Kings, they didn't even copy the well developed and interesting Tomb King characters. Settra in space would leagues better than Trazyn the eclectic collector who pokeballs random people.

Even worse is introducing the Fallen King of the Flayed Ones, yet doing absolutely NOTHING ELSE with him but a teasing page of fluff.

They shouldn't even be in the Webway lorewise for a start. Plus it's a maze, they have no navigation, it actively tries to stop them and they have no control over the gateways within it.

It's like using an enemies motorways except the motorway has impenetrable energy shields, no signs or landmarks and is covered in mines. But still you use that for all your military needs instead of your much better and safe motorway.

 Wyzilla wrote:
A simple dark hole in the ground is one thing, but when you've got three factions that are simple dark holes in the ground, things start to get redundant. Oldcrons only make sense in a universe absent of Chaos and Tyranids as a narrative force. When you've got Chaos, Necrons, and Tyranids, two of them need to step down before completely over-saturating the sense of dread and rendering it mundane.

Why can there only be one apocalyptic faction? I thought one of the points of 40k was how massively gakked humanity was. Facing multiple "endgame" scenarios at the same time was perfect for that feeling IMO.

Tyranids, chaos, and oldcrons were all fething death, but they were different flavors of death. Oldcrons represented the cold hatred of impossibly advanced, ancient murder machines, who served as footsoldiers to great-old-ones style entities. Tyranids represented the infinite hunger of an extra-galactic hive mind come to devour all of the biomass in our galaxy like a plague of locusts. They don't hate us, they just see us as food for the harvest, a bioweapon run amok. While chaos represented the worst parts of ourselves, "the great enemy" was but a reflection in the mirror, our own tendency for sin and selfishness made manifest in a mirror dimension. All three are unique and terrifying in their own ways.

Part of my problem with the ret-con fluff is it reads like it was written by an Eldar fanboy who hated the very idea of there being a more ancient, more technologically advanced race and so systematically destroyed it.

 Charistoph wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:Except it explicitly states that the Dolmen gates work by hijacking the webway. Which is a stupid way of travelling.
I don't mind it being used as a weapon, but as their only way of interstellar travel? Bugger off.

Inertialess drives were also used for interstellar travel. I believe it said as much in the 3rd ed codex.

Why is the Webway a stupid way to travel? Most of the advantages of the Warp with few of the problems. If the Dark Eldar can survive in their with an entire stellar system and not attract Slaanesh. The only issue is maintaining it, which the Eldar failed to do.

All and all, the Webway was still a far sight better traveling system than the slow go Torch Ships they used to use.

Because the Webway hates necrons and will try to trap them inside of it, and a race that can apparently create pocket dimensions at will shouldn't have to rely on some space elves' warp highway.
Oh, its a great way to travel for Eldar. They made it. For necrons though? Dumb and lame.

Eldars didn't made the Webway, the Old Ones did.

And the Webway is the most advanced construction in the setting, making everything else (Eldar, Necron, Human) look like toys. It is much more than just a "warp highway".

Hell, the entire plan of the GEOM was based on getting access to it.

pm713 wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:Except it explicitly states that the Dolmen gates work by hijacking the webway. Which is a stupid way of travelling.
I don't mind it being used as a weapon, but as their only way of interstellar travel? Bugger off.

Inertialess drives were also used for interstellar travel. I believe it said as much in the 3rd ed codex.

Why is the Webway a stupid way to travel? Most of the advantages of the Warp with few of the problems. If the Dark Eldar can survive in their with an entire stellar system and not attract Slaanesh. The only issue is maintaining it, which the Eldar failed to do.

All and all, the Webway was still a far sight better traveling system than the slow go Torch Ships they used to use.

They shouldn't even be in the Webway lorewise for a start. Plus it's a maze, they have no navigation, it actively tries to stop them and they have no control over the gateways within it.

Answer doesn't address the question. Why is the Webway a stupid way to travel?

Because it is a maze? Compared to the Warp it is downright linear.

pm713 wrote:It's like using an enemies motorways except the motorway has impenetrable energy shields, no signs or landmarks and is covered in mines. But still you use that for all your military needs instead of your much better and safe motorway.

False equivalencies. Once a mine is set, it doesn't care who triggers it. As a machine, you're basically immortal to time, so you start exploring. And again, it is MUCH faster than relying on real space.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:Except it explicitly states that the Dolmen gates work by hijacking the webway. Which is a stupid way of travelling.
I don't mind it being used as a weapon, but as their only way of interstellar travel? Bugger off.

Inertialess drives were also used for interstellar travel. I believe it said as much in the 3rd ed codex.

Why is the Webway a stupid way to travel? Most of the advantages of the Warp with few of the problems. If the Dark Eldar can survive in their with an entire stellar system and not attract Slaanesh. The only issue is maintaining it, which the Eldar failed to do.

All and all, the Webway was still a far sight better traveling system than the slow go Torch Ships they used to use.

Because the Webway hates necrons and will try to trap them inside of it, and a race that can apparently create pocket dimensions at will shouldn't have to rely on some space elves' warp highway.
Oh, its a great way to travel for Eldar. They made it. For necrons though? Dumb and lame.

Necrons didn't exist when the Webway was created, much less the Eldar. Still, the Eldar were the only sentients to retain the ability to use it in any case. They did a lousy job of maintaining it, too.

You may have a point about the pocket dimensions, but conversely, it depends on how that pocket dimension mechanic works. The only ones who really use it effectively are the Flayed Ones and the Death Marks, and .... yeah...

It is possible to teleport a Monolith from the tomb world to the target (which presumably could be half a galaxy away) and then teleport stuff from the tombworld to the monolith.

The Portal of Exile and the Monolith's method of teleportation are both explicitly not Dolmen Gates to the Webway. Therefore, Necrons have the technology to avoid the Webway entirely in a demonstrable form.

They just don't because newcron fluff is bad & dumb.

When has a Monolith been teleported from a Tomb World to another planet?

They can be teleported from orbit, but that requires an orbiting ship.

Tyran wrote:
When has a Monolith been teleported from a Tomb World to another planet?

They can be teleported from orbit, but that requires an orbiting ship.

D'oh! you're right, they can be teleported from orbit...

proving the Necrons can teleport without the warp. The reason they can't do this in other ways (e.g. to facilitate FTL travel) is because ......?

 Charistoph wrote:

You may have a point about the pocket dimensions, but conversely, it depends on how that pocket dimension mechanic works. The only ones who really use it effectively are the Flayed Ones and the Death Marks, and .... yeah...

Well, there's also the phasing that Wraiths do, and C'tan weapons used to do. (maybe still do, I'm not sure)

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Tyran wrote:
When has a Monolith been teleported from a Tomb World to another planet?

They can be teleported from orbit, but that requires an orbiting ship.

D'oh! you're right, they can be teleported from orbit...

proving the Necrons can teleport without the warp. The reason they can't do this in other ways (e.g. to facilitate FTL travel) is because ......?

Because teleport isn't necessarily FTL.

Also the mechanics of teleporting a relatively small vehicle an orbital distance are completely different from moving a starship to a different star system.

Tyran wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Tyran wrote:
When has a Monolith been teleported from a Tomb World to another planet?

They can be teleported from orbit, but that requires an orbiting ship.

D'oh! you're right, they can be teleported from orbit...

proving the Necrons can teleport without the warp. The reason they can't do this in other ways (e.g. to facilitate FTL travel) is because ......?

Because teleport isn't necessarily FTL.

Also the mechanics of teleporting a relatively small vehicle an orbital distance are completely different from moving a starship to a different star system.

They teleport troopers to and from Tomb Worlds. so that's definitely FTL. As for ships moving between systems, I'm not sure what their deal is currently. Back in the day it was some sort of non-warp, physics-breaking FTL iirc.

 Insectum7 wrote:
They teleport troopers to and from Tomb Worlds. so that's definitely FTL. As for ships moving between systems, I'm not sure what their deal is currently. Back in the day it was some sort of non-warp, physics-breaking FTL iirc.

But they still need physical means to generate the portals to teleport through. Monoliths Deep Strike the same way that Drop Pods do, just more slowly and threateningly. They then provide the gates for the troops to come through. The same applies to the Scythe. That type of "FTL" is closer to Stargate technology. It definitely is faster once the gate is set up, but the gate needs to be present first. And that is one reason for using the Webway, to get the gates in to place to "gate" things in.

 Charistoph wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
They teleport troopers to and from Tomb Worlds. so that's definitely FTL. As for ships moving between systems, I'm not sure what their deal is currently. Back in the day it was some sort of non-warp, physics-breaking FTL iirc.

But they still need physical means to generate the portals to teleport through. Monoliths Deep Strike the same way that Drop Pods do, just more slowly and threateningly. They then provide the gates for the troops to come through. The same applies to the Scythe. That type of "FTL" is closer to Stargate technology. It definitely is faster once the gate is set up, but the gate needs to be present first. And that is one reason for using the Webway, to get the gates in to place to "gate" things in.

I agree with all that for monoliths and teleporting troops through their portals. Their starships afaik didn't need physical portals. I could be wrong, but that's my impression.

Old crons had the Dyson Sphere, possibly housing the Outsider. They also had interstellar teleportation on the personal scale, and presumably on the starship scale, although they didn't need it.

Edit: responding to previous page.

 Charistoph wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Tyran wrote:
Inertialess drives are still a thing, the living metal is still a thing. The Fall of Damnos space battle is still a thing.

Newcrons are still the most powerful space navy in the galaxy in terms of individual ships and technological advantages.

I thought they took away the inertialess drives in favor of necrons using Dolmen Gates or some other kind of 'warp but not warp' tech stolen from the Eldar?

The Dolmen Gates involve interstellar travel. Inertialess drives involve interplanetary travel and combat maneuvering.

Right, okay. When I said inertialess drives for the Oldcrons, I think it was their only method of travel so they didn't become fops who basically wouldn't've been capable without stealing from the Eldar.

What fluff came out before 5th Edition made it seem like a portal or gate that they traveled through. If one didn't have a complete visual on them, it would seem like teleporting. Eldar operate similar, so it's not a huge stretch making them use the same "universe" to do interstellar travel, even if access isn't the same.

No, it was an inertialess drive akin to the Lensman drive, allowing FTL travel through real space. Oldcron ships were explicitly able to accelerate and decelerate so quickly that they appeared to appear and disappear at will, and could travel across the galaxy "in the blink of an eye".

Insectum7 wrote:I agree with all that for monoliths and teleporting troops through their portals. Their starships afaik didn't need physical portals. I could be wrong, but that's my impression.

That's because the ships didn't use the same technology. When a ship comes out of the Webway it's not like a Warp jump or even like the smaller web gates we see in common Eldar use. They just slide in to the universe.

BobtheInquisitor wrote:No, it was an inertialess drive akin to the Lensman drive, allowing FTL travel through real space. Oldcron ships were explicitly able to accelerate and decelerate so quickly that they appeared to appear and disappear at will, and could travel across the galaxy "in the blink of an eye".

Not the fluff I read. They were able to see regular combat movement with little difficulty. One person managed to catch them leaving and it looked more like a screen wipe. It just happened really fast.

Of course, I think that was a Blood Ravens novel, so there's a salt mine deed attached to it...

The Necrons using the webway for space travel doesn't make any sense... The Necrontyr had a large galactic empire prior to the War In Heaven. They couldn't have infiltrated the webway because at the earliest time they must have had FTL they were in no position to contest the Old Ones for it.

IIRC, the Dolmen gates were actually a C'tan creation that allowed the necrons to breach the webway.
How could a race that is incompatible to the warp find a way to hack into warp based technology? Idk, ask Ward.
Anyway, it was a way of countering the Old One's mobility.

Which makes sense, but then Ward decided that necrons should have to rely on the damned things instead of just doing what they did in 3rd ed.

 Arachnofiend wrote:
The Necrons using the webway for space travel doesn't make any sense... The Necrontyr had a large galactic empire prior to the War In Heaven. They couldn't have infiltrated the webway because at the earliest time they must have had FTL they were in no position to contest the Old Ones for it.

It does though. If your enemy built their own road, would you not use it? It's likely to lead to their strongholds and enclaves.

And now, Necrons possibly find it just more convenient.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
The Necrons using the webway for space travel doesn't make any sense... The Necrontyr had a large galactic empire prior to the War In Heaven. They couldn't have infiltrated the webway because at the earliest time they must have had FTL they were in no position to contest the Old Ones for it.

It does though. If your enemy built their own road, would you not use it? It's likely to lead to their strongholds and enclaves.

And now, Necrons possibly find it just more convenient.

It's not a question of usefulness, it's a question of possibility. The Necrontyr couldn't have used the webway to build their empire because before they became the Necrons the Old Ones were quite capable of stopping them. If the Necrons had only started using FTL after biotransference then sure, that works, but then how did they traverse their galactic empire?

It's not as if we know that much about the WiH. As far as we know, the Necrons were the Tau to the Old Ones' Imperium.

The lack of FTL is still a problem, although I guess it can be rationalized that they have FTL, only that it is much slower than the Webway.

 Arachnofiend wrote:
It's not a question of usefulness, it's a question of possibility. The Necrontyr couldn't have used the webway to build their empire because before they became the Necrons the Old Ones were quite capable of stopping them. If the Necrons had only started using FTL after biotransference then sure, that works, but then how did they traverse their galactic empire?

Pardon my ignorance, but what precludes they didn't have some kind of intertialess drive pre-Biotransference?

I admit that I have no dragged out my 3rd edition Codex in a while, so perhaps I missed something?

 Charistoph wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
They teleport troopers to and from Tomb Worlds. so that's definitely FTL. As for ships moving between systems, I'm not sure what their deal is currently. Back in the day it was some sort of non-warp, physics-breaking FTL iirc.

But they still need physical means to generate the portals to teleport through. Monoliths Deep Strike the same way that Drop Pods do, just more slowly and threateningly. They then provide the gates for the troops to come through. The same applies to the Scythe. That type of "FTL" is closer to Stargate technology. It definitely is faster once the gate is set up, but the gate needs to be present first. And that is one reason for using the Webway, to get the gates in to place to "gate" things in.

Oldcron monoliths explicitly teleported to the surface. In fact, every codex before the current one has had them teleporting to the surface. The current one retconned that to the "drop pod"-style descent from orbit, presumably because the idea of teleporting straight from a tomb world (or orbit) violated the entire notion of Dolmen Gates and demonstrated how stupid that fluff was.

The Monolith required no "gate" at its arrival site in old fluff. Indeed, the teleporting monolith actually shoved units out of the way when it arrived.

 Charistoph wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:Except it explicitly states that the Dolmen gates work by hijacking the webway. Which is a stupid way of travelling.
I don't mind it being used as a weapon, but as their only way of interstellar travel? Bugger off.

Inertialess drives were also used for interstellar travel. I believe it said as much in the 3rd ed codex.

Why is the Webway a stupid way to travel? Most of the advantages of the Warp with few of the problems. If the Dark Eldar can survive in their with an entire stellar system and not attract Slaanesh. The only issue is maintaining it, which the Eldar failed to do.

All and all, the Webway was still a far sight better traveling system than the slow go Torch Ships they used to use.

They shouldn't even be in the Webway lorewise for a start. Plus it's a maze, they have no navigation, it actively tries to stop them and they have no control over the gateways within it.

Answer doesn't address the question. Why is the Webway a stupid way to travel?

Because it is a maze? Compared to the Warp it is downright linear.

pm713 wrote:It's like using an enemies motorways except the motorway has impenetrable energy shields, no signs or landmarks and is covered in mines. But still you use that for all your military needs instead of your much better and safe motorway.

False equivalencies. Once a mine is set, it doesn't care who triggers it. As a machine, you're basically immortal to time, so you start exploring. And again, it is MUCH faster than relying on real space.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:Except it explicitly states that the Dolmen gates work by hijacking the webway. Which is a stupid way of travelling.
I don't mind it being used as a weapon, but as their only way of interstellar travel? Bugger off.

Inertialess drives were also used for interstellar travel. I believe it said as much in the 3rd ed codex.

Why is the Webway a stupid way to travel? Most of the advantages of the Warp with few of the problems. If the Dark Eldar can survive in their with an entire stellar system and not attract Slaanesh. The only issue is maintaining it, which the Eldar failed to do.

All and all, the Webway was still a far sight better traveling system than the slow go Torch Ships they used to use.

Because the Webway hates necrons and will try to trap them inside of it, and a race that can apparently create pocket dimensions at will shouldn't have to rely on some space elves' warp highway.
Oh, its a great way to travel for Eldar. They made it. For necrons though? Dumb and lame.

Necrons didn't exist when the Webway was created, much less the Eldar. Still, the Eldar were the only sentients to retain the ability to use it in any case. They did a lousy job of maintaining it, too.

You may have a point about the pocket dimensions, but conversely, it depends on how that pocket dimension mechanic works. The only ones who really use it effectively are the Flayed Ones and the Death Marks, and .... yeah...

In no way is the Webway linear. It's a labyrinth with one map in all existence that's almost impossible to get. The Warp is way more straightforwards and oldcron inertialess drives were so much better. It is a bad comparison in hindsight but the machine argument is meaningless. They have forever to walk into walls because the Webway restructures itself to block them. It's only faster for Eldar, everyone else has no motive to use it which is why the EoMs plan is mind bogglingly dumb but that's another topic.

Where did the idea that Eldar didn't maintain the Webway come from? It was in good enough shape for cities.

Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
They teleport troopers to and from Tomb Worlds. so that's definitely FTL. As for ships moving between systems, I'm not sure what their deal is currently. Back in the day it was some sort of non-warp, physics-breaking FTL iirc.

But they still need physical means to generate the portals to teleport through. Monoliths Deep Strike the same way that Drop Pods do, just more slowly and threateningly. They then provide the gates for the troops to come through. The same applies to the Scythe. That type of "FTL" is closer to Stargate technology. It definitely is faster once the gate is set up, but the gate needs to be present first. And that is one reason for using the Webway, to get the gates in to place to "gate" things in.

Oldcron monoliths explicitly teleported to the surface. In fact, every codex before the current one has had them teleporting to the surface. The current one retconned that to the "drop pod"-style descent from orbit, presumably because the idea of teleporting straight from a tomb world (or orbit) violated the entire notion of Dolmen Gates and demonstrated how stupid that fluff was.

The Monolith required no "gate" at its arrival site in old fluff. Indeed, the teleporting monolith actually shoved units out of the way when it arrived.

Teleported from where? 3rd Ed codex doesn't say. It's not like they couldn't have teleported from an orbiting ship, and such short range teleporting is well within their capacity, as their Lords have been doing it with regularity.

The issue is teleporting from one star system to another that causes a lot of problems. You either have to travel there directly, indirectly through a different medium, or have two points which act like bridge ends to keep things straight. The Necrontyr Torch Ships go one way, the Warp and Webway provide the second, with the Monolith and Scythe operating the third.

pm713 wrote:In no way is the Webway linear. It's a labyrinth with one map in all existence that's almost impossible to get. The Warp is way more straightforwards and oldcron inertialess drives were so much better. It is a bad comparison in hindsight but the machine argument is meaningless. They have forever to walk into walls because the Webway restructures itself to block them. It's only faster for Eldar, everyone else has no motive to use it which is why the EoMs plan is mind bogglingly dumb but that's another topic.

The Webway IS linear when compared to the Warp. Reread what I wrote. The Warp is actually NOT straightforward. Traveling through the Warp before Navigators was like taking a dingy from Ireland and heading west. Sure, you might get lucky, but more than likely you'd be lost. After Navigators it still wasn't a sure thing and ships got lost all the time, collecting in to Space Hulks. The Emperor provided his beacon to help the Navigators, but even that is not a sure thing as ships still get lost emerging at a point and time not of their choosing. The Webway is consistent in travel time and direction by comparison.

The Old Ones had little trouble traversing the Warp, yet still built the Webway, why? Because it was better over all.

Then when you consider that the Necrontyr never had access to the Warp and flew in stasis between the stars, the Webway would seem downright convenient.

And I have yet to read where the Webway was a more hostile place to outsiders than the Warp. It is quite possible to travel the Webway and never run in to a counter-measure. And when compared to the strength of the Necrons who would be stronger than most anything that would be thrown at them, they are a relative non-issue. The Necrontyr would be a different story, but they never had access to it.

pm713 wrote:Where did the idea that Eldar didn't maintain the Webway come from? It was in good enough shape for cities.

From the Eldar, Dark Eldar, and Necron codices. There are many collapsed sections of the Webway which allowed the Warp to enter.

Who would maintain it now? The self-indulgent Eldar who fapped Slaanesh into existence were the only ones who knew and cared enough how after the Old Ones were gone. What's left of the mighty Eldar race is either too primitive to care, on the run in massive star ships with barely the wherewithal to maintain themselves, or a one-system degenerate society that is too interested in other factors to worry about their highways. The Krorks might have, but they don't care now that their Brain Boyz are gone. The God Emperor wanted to get started on it, but was rather interrupted when some of his sons got a little pouty.

And I don't think you understand the capacity the Webway has. It literally contains an entire star system in at least one section (possibly more).

It's not at all linear compared to the Warp. With just Warp Engines you can make slow but consistent FTL travel with small jumps and the biggest issue becomes maintaining your Gellar field. If you want to get riskier you can jump straight from A to B and trust the Navigator. Pretty straightforwards.

The Webway requires you to rush through a labyrinth to your destination which you don't know the location of before your sealed in. In a world with weird physics, hostiles potentially everywhere who could attack without warnings. Much harder.

You really can't speculate about the Old Ones motives seeing as the Warp had none of the dangers then because there wasn't Chaos.

Why would Necrons use the Webay though? NecronTYR are the ones with motive to do so, Necrons have inertialess drives which are better in every way and actually fit their theme.

Yeah there are collapsed sections after the apocalyptic event that broke it. That's like saying human cities are as structurally weak as wet paper because they're in ruins but only looking at ones that were bombed for days on end.

Where? How does that at all match what you're saying? It's small enough to be used as a galaxy spanning travel method despite the time limit but big enough for star systems?

 Charistoph wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
They teleport troopers to and from Tomb Worlds. so that's definitely FTL. As for ships moving between systems, I'm not sure what their deal is currently. Back in the day it was some sort of non-warp, physics-breaking FTL iirc.

But they still need physical means to generate the portals to teleport through. Monoliths Deep Strike the same way that Drop Pods do, just more slowly and threateningly. They then provide the gates for the troops to come through. The same applies to the Scythe. That type of "FTL" is closer to Stargate technology. It definitely is faster once the gate is set up, but the gate needs to be present first. And that is one reason for using the Webway, to get the gates in to place to "gate" things in.

Oldcron monoliths explicitly teleported to the surface. In fact, every codex before the current one has had them teleporting to the surface. The current one retconned that to the "drop pod"-style descent from orbit, presumably because the idea of teleporting straight from a tomb world (or orbit) violated the entire notion of Dolmen Gates and demonstrated how stupid that fluff was.

The Monolith required no "gate" at its arrival site in old fluff. Indeed, the teleporting monolith actually shoved units out of the way when it arrived.

Teleported from where? 3rd Ed codex doesn't say. It's not like they couldn't have teleported from an orbiting ship, and such short range teleporting is well within their capacity, as their Lords have been doing it with regularity.

Can you explain what, other than simple power generation, a short ranged teleporter might be more usable while a long range teleport is not?

Heck, a series of short range teleports will get you there quick as can be, since teleports are instantaneous. If you travel from A->Z in T=0, then travelling from A->B->C->... could presumably also be done in T=0, if your computers are programmed in advanced and your power generation is up to snuff.

Remember, teleportation literally violates causality. Having any "teleporter" tech at all means you don't really have to worry about speed anymore, and we know that Monoliths have teleporters that can take them to a planet's surface from at /least/ Orbit without requiring a gate at the bottom.

You cannot assume the technology works like that. You cannot assume it is truly instantaneous.

Hell, even Oldcrons couldn't use their teleport technology for FTL, and the Inertialess Drive never has been teleportation.

Tyran wrote:
You cannot assume the technology works like that. You cannot assume it is truly instantaneous.

Hell, even Oldcrons couldn't use their teleport technology for FTL, and the Inertialess Drive never has been teleportation.

Right. So the point is:
They went from wiz-bang coolness (FTL Inertialess drives, possible teleportation shenanigans, whathaveyou) to basically helpless without stealing the Webway from the Eldar. That isn't... engaging or a fun change. It's an unnecessary change that makes the Necrons seem a bit... dumb really. It'd be like if you had to drive through enemy territory to do anything always. Oh, and the highway is trying to kill you.

pm713 wrote:It's not at all linear compared to the Warp. With just Warp Engines you can make slow but consistent FTL travel with small jumps and the biggest issue becomes maintaining your Gellar field. If you want to get riskier you can jump straight from A to B and trust the Navigator. Pretty straightforwards.

A Navigator was only marginally useful before the Emperor, and gained significant, but not complete, usefulness after the Emperor set up his guiding light. And yeah, the Necrontyr and Necrons never had Warp Navigators.

pm713 wrote:The Webway requires you to rush through a labyrinth to your destination which you don't know the location of before your sealed in. In a world with weird physics, hostiles potentially everywhere who could attack without warnings. Much harder.

Actually the Warp is even worse if you don't have any navigational aids.

pm713 wrote:You really can't speculate about the Old Ones motives seeing as the Warp had none of the dangers then because there wasn't Chaos.

I can speculate all I want to about the Old Ones. You can't stop me. Your point actually emphasizes the superiority of the Webway over the Warp since the Warp started to get dangerous during the War in Heaven, yet the Old Ones still built and used the Webway extensively over the Warp.

pm713 wrote:Why would Necrons use the Webay though? NecronTYR are the ones with motive to do so, Necrons have inertialess drives which are better in every way and actually fit their theme.

Just being inertialess doesn't change other aspects such as top speed being limited by other factors. Technically speaking, all being inertialess means is that vector changes aren't an issue. A good example of this in the Star Control games. Every ship is subject to inertia, but one (the Arilou). It is a fast ship, but it can be out-run by other ships because they have a higher top speed or can slingshot around the planets while they cannot.

pm713 wrote:Yeah there are collapsed sections after the apocalyptic event that broke it. That's like saying human cities are as structurally weak as wet paper because they're in ruins but only looking at ones that were bombed for days on end.

Actually that has nothing to do with it. We're talking about maintenance here. Like when a freeway overpass gets knocked down by an earthquake. If no one makes an effort to shore up and maintain it, it will stay knocked down. If a town is abandoned, then the buildings will fall and be over-grown.

pm713 wrote:Where? How does that at all match what you're saying? It's small enough to be used as a galaxy spanning travel method despite the time limit but big enough for star systems?

Read up on the Dark Eldar's home and how they escaped Slaanesh's birth and wrath. They actually dragged a star in to the Webway to give energy to the Dark City.

Parts of the Webway are small enough for people to engage with it on a personal level and other parts allow whole fleets through. Basically, it's always "plot-sized".

Unit1126PLL wrote:Can you explain what, other than simple power generation, a short ranged teleporter might be more usable while a long range teleport is not?

Capacity for observation and being able to account for the conditions of the local target is one. The longer the trip, the more fine your course has to be, and "teleportation" usually doesn't allow for easy corrections along the way. As an example, look at Star Trek: Into Darkness when Scottie beams everyone to the Enterprise. That was a "short" distance compared to the ranges that 40K operates at. To say nothing of being off by a 10^-23 in your calculations between observed and actuality.

Unit1126PLL wrote:Heck, a series of short range teleports will get you there quick as can be, since teleports are instantaneous. If you travel from A->Z in T=0, then travelling from A->B->C->... could presumably also be done in T=0, if your computers are programmed in advanced and your power generation is up to snuff.

Short range teleportation could be quick, or it could be slow. Factors involved are in how long it takes to power up a jump and the maximum reliable distance of said jumps, or maximum distance of semi-reliable jumps. Interestingly enough, Isaac Asimov's Foundation series goes in to some detail on this with one of the final books. The pilot notes that any ship can make jumps as quickly as they want between star systems, but their jump system tended to be unreliable in hitting the target. However, the computer seemed to be extremely accurate on their ship, so they were able to make numerous jumps all at once. If one considers a "reliable" jump to be at interplanetary distances, it can still take a considerable amount of time to traverse interstellar distances depending on how quickly it takes to initiate said teleportation jump in the first place, even with a quick jump sequence.

Unit1126PLL wrote:Remember, teleportation literally violates causality. Having any "teleporter" tech at all means you don't really have to worry about speed anymore, and we know that Monoliths have teleporters that can take them to a planet's surface from at /least/ Orbit without requiring a gate at the bottom.

Remember, we know so very very little about our universe. It violates what we know of causality, and only for our universe. We haven't even left our planetary system yet, but we can make hard pronouncements on what is and is not possible for such an occurrence? To say nothing about a universe where one's own demons can literally come home to roost if one's psychic power is sufficient.

Not to mention, it really depends on how the teleportation system operates. Terminators take a quick hop through the Warp. In relative terms, it is little different to Deathmarks hopping in to their hyperspace bubbles. Star Trek converts objects in to energy and then projects and reforms that energy at a different location. We have zero understanding on the limitations of what teleportation methods the Necrons use, and can only go by observed data.

From there, Oldcron stories are told from the Imperium's perspective, Newcron stories are told either from an omniscient (or nearly so) or Necron's perspective. What may seem like a teleport to a Guardsman or a Marine who is focusing on the battle in front just may be them not noticing the Monolith dropping at a prodigious rate.