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the_scotsman wrote:
and even then they kept their wargear, transports etc compatible so existing DG players could at least use some of their old stuff.

.

Must've missed the page where I can give me Termies Chainfists and Powefists...

Silver144 wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

Silver144 wrote:


They are not just new tacticals, they REPLACE all current tacticals, this is not just some "details". And this is the breaking point. Invalidating almost half oh the armies in the game could not be tolerated.

Tacticals will have some form of rule support for foreseeable future, and if at some point they don't you can use them as Intercessors if you're hell bent on using old ugly models. (And you can form a Hellblaster squad from all the plasmas from those Tactical Squads. Let's not pretend that almost all marine specials aren't plasmas.)

"But, but this and that model doesn't have a Primaris equivalent!" Let's worry about that if rule support for old marines actually vanishes, the situation will be completely different bu then. (And you probably have replaced most of your army with the Primaris by then anyway.)

You didn't read what I answer you in previos notes, right?..

Oh well, no reason to asnwer you anymore then.

Yes, I did and they're not making any more sense. You're hung up on nomenclature. Just cross over 'Intercessors' in the datasheet in your codex and write' Tactical Squad' there. Done. Now you have updated tactical squad rules, which you can represent with old or new models however you please.

 Crimson wrote:

Silver144 wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

Silver144 wrote:


They are not just new tacticals, they REPLACE all current tacticals, this is not just some "details". And this is the breaking point. Invalidating almost half oh the armies in the game could not be tolerated.

Tacticals will have some form of rule support for foreseeable future, and if at some point they don't you can use them as Intercessors if you're hell bent on using old ugly models. (And you can form a Hellblaster squad from all the plasmas from those Tactical Squads. Let's not pretend that almost all marine specials aren't plasmas.)

"But, but this and that model doesn't have a Primaris equivalent!" Let's worry about that if rule support for old marines actually vanishes, the situation will be completely different bu then. (And you probably have replaced most of your army with the Primaris by then anyway.)

You didn't read what I answer you in previos notes, right?..

Oh well, no reason to asnwer you anymore then.

Yes, I did and they're not making any more sense. You're hung up on nomenclature. Just cross over 'Intercessors' in the datasheet in your codex and write' Tactical Squad' there. Done. Now you have updated tactical squad rules, which you can represent with old or new models however you please.

Ok and what I gonna do with my meltas and power axes in tactical squad that have no support in intercessor datasheet? Breaking my minis apart to make them all bolter? In every single squad?

I dislike primaris for 3 reasons and actually like them for one reason, which is slowly being wiped out.

I dislike them because they fundamentally don't work on the table top and by their inclusion in the codex prevent traditional marines from being given functional rules. Simply put they oversaturated an already crowded design space. So instead of more choice we just end up with an unplayable mess of a codex thats contains a buch of units without a clear tabletop role.

They lack customisation or variation, a squad or two looks OK but a whole army of them starts to look very repetitive, with traditional marines you can add multiple marks of armour and headswaps etc to make them an army of individuals instead of the obviously lego like nature of primaris.

They really don't work next to any of the Forgeworld models from dreads to sicarans to spartans and the one FW primaris model is the worst creation I have seen from FW in a while, it's as bad as the SW and their upside down bolters.

They did finally make marine look like marines on the table top not like squats next to cadians, who are ironically larger than catachans, who are borderline abhumans. Warp tainted cadians obviously fetch the inquisition! Exterminatous of the warp tainted cadians must be sanctioned immediately. but GW has made every new kit upscale aswell so they arn't the truescale GW promised they just allowed guardsmen etc to become bigger than orks FFS.

So all in all a total failure and pretty much why I walked away from marines as an army since I started 40k

Silver144 wrote:


Ok and what I gonna do with my meltas and power axes in tactical squad that have no support in intercessor datasheet? Breaking my minis apart to make them all bolter? In every single squad?

That's what I did for many marine models in the dawn of 3rd edition when options were removed. (Also, assuming that Index options are removed, a lot of armies have similar problems now, completely outside this Primaris issue.) Or you can shelve those specific models and wait for Primaris equivalents, which might appear. Though you already said you liked the new models, so I don't see what's the problem, you're literally just upset because they're called 'Intercessors' instead of 'Tacticals'.

Personally my biggest problem with Primaris Marines is fluffy. I really like Aggressors even though they need a cheaper delivery system then the Repulsor.

30K Legions: "Tactical Squads" (not sure exact 30K nomenclature for Legion troops) - Mono-task, inflexible squads of 10-20 SM with bolters.
31K-40K: Tactical Squads - Tactically flexible squads of 5-10 with bolters and a choice of taking special and/or heavy weapons.
40K post-RG: Intercessor Squads - Mono-task, inflexible squads of 5-10 PM armed with one of 3 types of "bolters" but 1/5 can take auxilary grenade launchers.

 Crimson wrote:

Silver144 wrote:


Ok and what I gonna do with my meltas and power axes in tactical squad that have no support in intercessor datasheet? Breaking my minis apart to make them all bolter? In every single squad?

That's what I did for many marine models in the dawn of 3rd edition when options were removed. (Also, assuming that Index options are removed, a lot of armies have similar problems now, completely outside this Primaris issue.) Or you can shelve those specific models and wait for Primaris equivalents, which might appear. Though you already said you liked the new models, so I don't see what's the problem, you're literally just upset because they're called 'Intercessors' instead of 'Tacticals'.

So now we agree that your argument "just play your current marines as primaris" is a strawman, because from all line the only comparable unit is regular bolterguys and even then you have to break and remade 2/3 in every freaking squad? And the rest 90% should be just shelved. If you don't see any problem here I don't think we should continue our dialoge. There lots of peoples here agrees with my opinion and you alone making the same argument over and over again.

I'm not as convinced as others that the original Astartes are heading for the bin.

See, we've not had updated sculpts because barring the Bikers, they're all relatively modern kits. So there's not as much need for them to be resculpted - especially not compared to other armies.

Then, there's the fact that none of the Primaris units are direct analogues of their predecessors. Intercessors are not Tactical Squads. They've no special or heavy weapons. Helblasters are only Plasma. Jumpy Ones are firepower, not assault. And the clumpyfisty ones aren't Terminators.

Likely, the Primaris were introduced as a way to drive sales, precisely because the pre-existing line is so well defined. You'll struggle to sell resculpted Marines to a player that already owns a couple of Company's worth. But give them all new units, stuff never seen before? Each of which offers something different to their existing collection? That's far more tempting.

Sure, I may be wrong here. And time will tell. This isn't meant as a 'calling out' of those with concerns. Just my ha'penny worth as food for thought.

Guys if the marines are really going away (and i'm not 100% sure yet, considering that we still have rules for some pretty ancient OOP stuff), then that is going to take many many years. Probably at least 2 editions, 8 years or so.

Also, the primaris fluff was necessary for the the game, it was crumbling under its absurdity without it. The devastation of Baal would have been impossible without primaris marines ready to refill the chapters, the same for the fall of Cadia. Vigilus will be the same.

Until now we had a grimdark setting where the good guys couldn't die too much!! Some could say that this was the spirit of 40K, but i say that after 25 years of it, it became simply too absurd and in dire need of a shake up.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:


See, we've not had updated sculpts because barring the Bikers, they're all relatively modern kits. So there's not as much need for them to be resculpted - especially not compared to other armies.

Just FYI, the biker kit got recut ages ago circa 5th/6th ed. to have the ball and socket connection the modern SM torsos and legs have, despite all appearance it's not the same kit from the 90's.

Silver144 wrote:

So now we agree that your argument "just play your current marines as primaris" is a strawman, because from all line the only comparable unit is regular bolterguys and even then you have to break and remade 2/3 in every freaking squad? And the rest 90% should be just shelved. If you don't see any problem here I don't think we should continue our dialoge. There lots of peoples here agrees with my opinion and you alone making the same argument over and over again.

Why are you ignoring the fact that many other armies lose options and whole units too, if Index options go? And that is way more likely to happen (and happen soon) than old marines losing the rule support. The option to use old marines as Primaris is for the distant future when and if old marine rules really vanish, and then, I'm sure, those rare people who have not upgraded to Primaris already will find a way to use most of their collections as counts-as. (I mean, you can already do so with many models if you want, to, but now there is no pressing need to do so.)

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I'm not as convinced as others that the original Astartes are heading for the bin.

See, we've not had updated sculpts because barring the Bikers, they're all relatively modern kits. So there's not as much need for them to be resculpted - especially not compared to other armies.

Then, there's the fact that none of the Primaris units are direct analogues of their predecessors. Intercessors are not Tactical Squads. They've no special or heavy weapons. Helblasters are only Plasma. Jumpy Ones are firepower, not assault. And the clumpyfisty ones aren't Terminators.

Likely, the Primaris were introduced as a way to drive sales, precisely because the pre-existing line is so well defined. You'll struggle to sell resculpted Marines to a player that already owns a couple of Company's worth. But give them all new units, stuff never seen before? Each of which offers something different to their existing collection? That's far more tempting.

Sure, I may be wrong here. And time will tell. This isn't meant as a 'calling out' of those with concerns. Just my ha'penny worth as food for thought.

Intercessors are already much better troop than tacticals. They live longer, have better firepower and their role is the same as tacticals. Agressors, lets see - bulky unit with many s4 shooting and some powerfists attack in melee, sounds familiar... right, basic terminators with stormbolter and power fists. We will see melee agressor soon to replace assault termies. And may be sure, soon there will be new hellblasters with assault cannons and lascannon equivalent, and gravbikers to replace current bikers.

 wuestenfux wrote:
The Primaris Marines mark a jump in history, away from dark age to renaissance.
This could mean that we will more advanced technology for Mankind in the future.

This. Imo, they're ruining the setting with this. The Imperium is losing it's 'grim darkness', with Guilliman coming back and the age of new Primaris Marines.

Spoletta wrote:
Guys if the marines are really going away (and i'm not 100% sure yet, considering that we still have rules for some pretty ancient OOP stuff), then that is going to take many many years. Probably at least 2 editions, 8 years or so.

Also, the primaris fluff was necessary for the the game, it was crumbling under its absurdity without it. The devastation of Baal would have been impossible without primaris marines ready to refill the chapters, the same for the fall of Cadia. Vigilus will be the same.

Until now we had a grimdark setting where the good guys couldn't die too much!! Some could say that this was the spirit of 40K, but i say that after 25 years of it, it became simply too absurd and in dire need of a shake up.

Er....dude they did the devastation of baal, cadia and the invasion of fenris specifically to set up numarines, they were in development before those were even written.

But because they don't do customer research they had no clue primaris would not be welcomed.

 Crimson wrote:

Silver144 wrote:

So now we agree that your argument "just play your current marines as primaris" is a strawman, because from all line the only comparable unit is regular bolterguys and even then you have to break and remade 2/3 in every freaking squad? And the rest 90% should be just shelved. If you don't see any problem here I don't think we should continue our dialoge. There lots of peoples here agrees with my opinion and you alone making the same argument over and over again.

Why are you ignoring the fact that many other armies lose options and whole units too, if Index options go? And that is way more likely to happen (and happen soon) than old marines losing the rule support. The option to use old marines as Primaris is for the distant future when and if old marine rules really vanish, and then, I'm sure, those rare people who have not upgraded to Primaris already will find a way to use most of their collections as counts-as. (I mean, you can already do so with many models if you want, to, but now there is no pressing need to do so.)

Tell me which "other army" is at the edge of full revamp with the entirely new units?

Disproportionate models are uncanny valley. Okay place to visit but I wouldn't want to live there.

hobojebus 767287 10244177 wrote:

Er....dude they did the devastation of baal, cadia and the invasion of fenris specifically to set up numarines, they were in development before those were even written.

But because they don't do customer research they had no clue primaris would not be welcomed.

I think it is more the mentality of thinking that what ever you do is going to be cool, and cool is what people like. I mean everyone at the studio thinks it is cool.
If EA can think that the mobile version of C&C is the bomb, and blizzard can think that a reskin of their own game is going to make them immortal, we shouldn't be suprised that same can happen at GW. I don't even think it is a bad thing, just a thing that happens in large companies.
Imagine your someone even from the outside. If you see a new project a criticise something that studio just worked for 3-6 months, they will just stop asking your for a commment.

Okay place to visit but I wouldn't want to live there.

What is the accurate representation of an Orc or Dwarf in a game then. Even a space marine is like a Brock Lesnar that ate another Brok Lesnar.Add armor and it will never look good.

People are upset as the message is clear.

All your old marines will be obsolete in another 5 years.

Now that doesn't mean you won't be able to play them, much like I have a buddy that still uses his 1989 Land Raider in games, and your classic marines will "count as" primaris.

But you will not ever be able to expand your classic collection. Everything new is going to be Primaris sized. And eventually people are going ask why your playing with Epic scale Mini's in 40K.

hobojebus wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
Guys if the marines are really going away (and i'm not 100% sure yet, considering that we still have rules for some pretty ancient OOP stuff), then that is going to take many many years. Probably at least 2 editions, 8 years or so.

Also, the primaris fluff was necessary for the the game, it was crumbling under its absurdity without it. The devastation of Baal would have been impossible without primaris marines ready to refill the chapters, the same for the fall of Cadia. Vigilus will be the same.

Until now we had a grimdark setting where the good guys couldn't die too much!! Some could say that this was the spirit of 40K, but i say that after 25 years of it, it became simply too absurd and in dire need of a shake up.

Er....dude they did the devastation of baal, cadia and the invasion of fenris specifically to set up numarines, they were in development before those were even written.

But because they don't do customer research they had no clue primaris would not be welcomed.

"Would not be welcomed" is a bold statement without sales figures. I think that primaris stuff actually sold quite well. Those models look fantastic, i'm seriously thinking about putting my bugs on the side for a bit to gather an all primaris force. I'm not doing it just because the primaris range is too small at the moment.

And yes, those novels were written to introduce primaris in the picture, but that doesn't mean that they are not really good pieces of fluff (IMHO) which were made possible only because the imperium can finally take a beating! Allowing the imperium to take meaningful losses without breaking the setting, opens a lot of narrative chances for the authors.

Insane buthurt about getting new better looking models...

But yeah, looking at GWs sale figures, it is just the usual Dakka whining and not representative of the player base as a whole.

 Crimson wrote:
Insane buthurt about getting new better looking models...

Trolling because people don't agree with your opinion.

I wouldn't use the old-old RT beakies only because I think the models look bad.

I do however have some old 2nd ed marines in my army. Since they are only maybe half a head shorter you really don't notice the difference on the table. That and they have pretty much the same look (newer just has some added detail) so they blend in nicely.

With Primaris being a full head taller (a head and a half to the 2nd ed marines) and their armor design completely different, they will stand out like a sore thumb to me.

Maybe if they were the same size as the current marines then I'd consider them as I'm not huge on fluff (I won't play with wolfen because to me, they are still the lost 13th. I don't understand the need to change the story, especially in WHFB, for what is in essence a large board game) but I do love the atmosphere of the background.

I think the only injured party here is the person who is upset and trolling because people don't agree with his opinion. Very immature.

As for sales figure, no one knows the sales figures for the individual primaris units, so you cant really comment on them accurately. GW's financials have been excellent, but they have released large and varied amounts of excellent stuff in the last few years, a group of 5 units, 2 vehicles and a handful of characters mostly released 1 1/2 years ago is unlikely to be the sole reason for that.

I thought I remember a thread talking about primaris sales, and how they weren't what GW was hoping for them. I don't remember which thread it was though.

 Mmmpi wrote:
I thought I remember a thread talking about primaris sales, and how they weren't what GW was hoping for them. I don't remember which thread it was though.

It is just something some people keep bringing up without any backing up.

Though I wouldn't be surprised if the multipart Primaris sets wouldn't be selling amazingly well. Rules are written so that the loadiuts you get in the Dark Imperium are the best, so there is little reason to get the more expensive multipart kits.

 Crimson wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:
I thought I remember a thread talking about primaris sales, and how they weren't what GW was hoping for them. I don't remember which thread it was though.

It is just something some people keep bringing up without any backing up.

Such as half the things you've posted ITT?

The amount of people tryng to arguee that primaris are ugly or bad models, oh my god.
Is absolutely fine to aesthetically dislike them but this amount of denial and defense of the horrible old marine and terminator proportions.... And LOVE terminators. Much more than agressors. But I love old marines despise their proportions and small size, not becausr of them.
BTW Grimstuff, nice one calling Crimson biased for his picture of an intercessors vs a dark vengeance marine and then using one of and old metal model vs a new deathwatch veteran, that have longer legs and proportions that older marines like tacticals, etc...
I have yet to see someone use the same arguments that they use to arguee that primaris are ugly to try and sell people that new rubrics are worse than the old ones when the change is the same done with primaris.

It’s not like that at all though. New rubrics are similar to the old models, they are just a full plastic update.

Primaris diverge from the marine aethsetic to a far greater degree and are far larger.

What happened with rubrics would be like if the current tactical squad was replaced with a new one based on the size and detail of the space marine heroes models - just an update.

As for proportions, i suspect less people than you think care about ideal human art proportions that much.

That's not a DW Vet. Those legs are from the Tactical sprue. Do some homework before you go calling out people like that. Not a single set of legs on the DW sprue has both feet touching the ground- 2 minutes of looking on GW's site would tell you that they're all in a walking pose.

The problem is that instead of just releasing improved models with MkX armour so that SM players could upgrade their existing units or not depending on preference, GW went down the route of not only changing the models, but also the lore and rules too. That leaves existing SM players wondering how long before their army gets squatted.

If you currently own a painted WYSIWYG SM army the thought of having to use them as proxies for Primaris units in the future isn't very appealing. In addition, the lack of options for Primaris units might be easier for new players, but that offers less depth for experienced players.