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2018/12/08 20:57:44
Subject: CA Point Changes - a mix of excitement and disappointment
Karol wrote: I turn two of my paladins in to ancients or apothecaries, there are no models for them anyway, so I doubt anyone is going to care.
Looks at WIPGK Terminator Apothecary on desk
Regarding the bolded portion of your post there, yes, there are? They're build options from the plastic GK Terminator kit, with specific wargear (banner and Narthecium, respectively).
well in that case I don't know what to do. I don't have plastic termintors, only metal ones and one is resin, which is Draigo.
Seriously, everyone is like "wait until the CA 2017, Wait until Big FAQ 2018, Wait until Big FAQ 2 2018, wait until CA 2018" and now CA is out GK players are being told to wait another 6 months! Or to buy a freaking new codex?!?!
I would be ok, if they just came up, told that they do not plan to update anything in the rules or the model range, and that the stuff they got is all they will get. I would be ok if they were left with the index option. Instead we got a separate section about how cool paladins or purfires are going to be after the CA change. I know it is me, am easy to trick and I have problems with letting stuff go, I generaly don't get the subtel stuff and hints, and need everything plain text. The worse thing about it all is that it damages my health, the thing I am scared the most is either getting overhyped and doing something stupid in RL, or being so down that the anti depresants stop working. I already had to take double the dose last night, and I can't do it every night.
Maybe they will errata the CA or something. I don't know. I don't even think there is enough GK players to generate enough push on GW for them to act.
Game designers are continuing to show favoritism to certain factions instead of creating a satisfying game experience for everyone. The problem is, I think they believe they are improving the game and 8th is a sea-change from what came before. It's that lack of self-awareness that really gets to me.
And to make matters worse GK the anti demon faction in lore, is the worse army to fight vs demons. It is so sad, it is almost funny.
We got it, you are angry because grey knights were not reduced to the costs of guardsmen, don't need to make 100 posts a day about this.
GK received LOADS of buffs, many more than other factions. Contrarily to other factions though, they received them on units that were actually taken, while all the other factions didn't see a single buff to the external power, they were all internal adjustments without any real effect on the competitiveness of the faction. Necrons, Admech and GK were the only factions actually buffed (and tank commanders, for some reason).
You can say that the buffs were not enough, and i actually agree with that, the buffs GK received were not enough, but saying that everyone got better and GK were left in the dust is just plain untrue and makes you look like a troll.
Ok, I guess we are going to have to wait 2-3 months and see how many GK armies will be played around the world. To me if all armies get point drops, then the point drops to fix something would have to be as you said. Something super drastic, like a full armed strike costing 14pts. the drops are not enough to fix anything. There is no buffs to GK, when the army is already over priced. If I play a 2000pts army, get a 200pts points drop, but my army is over priced by 300pts. Then the drop isn't helping me much. If at the same time my opponents IG soup army gets the same 200pts drop, but his army was at worse costing real 2000pts, and if it goes by what haters say it was having 100-150 free IG points, then where is the GK buff.
You compare GK to units tzeench armies don't even use. And use it as a supposed example as GK getting better, when they still both cost worse and shot worse. But hey they are better at melee. They can't reach it, but that is no problem right? Or if they do it is something that is actually good at melee and they just die.
People keep saying that the GK units getting points drops is meaningless in the context of other armies getting points drops, but this is an overly simplified way to look at it. GK's core units received points drops whereas most everyone else's points drops were applied to their second stringer units. Nobody was taking gak like Hydras, Broodlords, and Striking Scorpions so a drop on those units does nothing to put grey knights in a relatively worse position. Taking two 2k pre-ca guard lists of mine I had saved in battlescribe and I shaved 13 and 65 points respectively.
I can totally see the argument that GK points drops were not deep enough, but the 'everybody else got points drops so ours is useless' line is just silly.
2018/12/08 20:57:52
Subject: CA Point Changes - a mix of excitement and disappointment
Xenomancers wrote: A 7point buffed boy with traits and +1 attack is actually WORSE than the 6 point boy with the same buffs.
Yeah ofc - but a lot better than a 6 point boy without them. Evil suns is trait alone is worth 1 point. Plus you get dakka dakka and +1 attack. It's not even worth arguing.
I know we're just feeding a fed horse at this point, but how much did Eldar pay for -1 to be hit trait, for example?
did you just do a PETA reference?
Automatically Appended Next Post: As much as I hate this update just checked my points.... I've gone down 200pts on my marine army... If I didn't have 15 normal marines and a normal marine HQ I'd probably have gone down even more! Yet, as the same time the feeling of joy is over shadowed by everyone else going down... like, if everyone went down then I'm back to where I was? ALSO! Annoyed my 2000pts army is no longer 2000pts and I now have to go out and buy some more minis
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/12/08 21:05:49
2018/12/08 21:42:09
Subject: CA Point Changes - a mix of excitement and disappointment
Xenomancers wrote: A 7point buffed boy with traits and +1 attack is actually WORSE than the 6 point boy with the same buffs.
Yeah ofc - but a lot better than a 6 point boy without them. Evil suns is trait alone is worth 1 point. Plus you get dakka dakka and +1 attack. It's not even worth arguing.
Boyz had that +1A also in the index. Dakkadakkadakka for the boyz means an average of 3 additional hits at S4 no AP with a 30 man mob of shoota boyz. 60 dice to get +3 hits without the rule. +1 or 2 hits if the unit is equipped with sluggas instead of shootas. It means 0-1 more cheap dude like a 4pts guardsmen dead by ork shooting if the boyz unit is at full strenght. Yeah, it's not even worth arguing.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/08 21:47:14
2018/12/08 21:44:05
Subject: CA Point Changes - a mix of excitement and disappointment
An Actual Englishman wrote: Ah, the typical inane trolling of 'hurr durr if you don't like something sell your army that you've invested a ton of time and money into for a pittance.'
I'll remember this comment when the nerf bat next hits TS and you express any disappointment.
What is your beef? Ork codex and CA was likely written at about the same time - so no changes - this should have been expected.
Current orks are top tier. An unbuffed ork boy was undercosted at 6 points. A 7 point buffed boy with traits and +1 attack is actually better than the 6 point boy was. DE with no changes is actually kind of suprising - I am assuming they used DE as baseline for everything and tried to get every codex up to that level. They did fail miserably at this - but that seems to be what happened.
I agree about CA and ork codex, I wasn't expecting anything major, but at the least I wanted them to give us more in our errata or maybe throw in something in White dwarf for the issue with points for Orkz.
Your next point though is patently false. An unbuffed ork boy was priced correctly at 6, at 7 it is over priced. A 7point buffed boy with traits and +1 attack is actually WORSE than the 6 point boy with the same buffs.
Movement, stayed the same, so they are as slow as ever. We can spend 2 CP to deep strike them though? or my favorite, give them evil sunz and make them faster and better at getting into assault.
Ranged damage. With Dakkax3 orkz are AS good per point as they were without Dakkax3 at 6ppm. So this is a wash....sort of, because realistically boyz prefer Pistols not shootas so if anything we are now paying for extra crap we don't use in 90% of the circumstances.
Close combat: Please explain to me how Less attacks for more points is better? The only CC buff you get is if you take Goffs and then guess what? It works out to being AS GOOD as 6ppm boyz
Durability: Here is where you really lose it. 2 Kultures give you a boost to durability, 1 gives you a 6+FNP which brings them back to where a 6ppm boy was in regards to durability per point. The other faction gives you a 6+ Invuln but that is meh at best since very rarely were people putting -1 or more AP weapons into boyz, so without a doubt durability and point per wound went down by 16% with this.
OVERALL: Each kulture gives a specific buff to boyz, but unless you incorporate 2 or more you are actually WORSE then before and since you can't incorporate 2 or more than boyz are worse point for point then they were in the index where orkz were placing mid to low tier in tournaments relying exclusively on boyz to do the lifting (180-240 boyz per list).
So you can sit there and argue all day that ork boyz needed a nerf, i'll disagree but at least that is a genuine argument you can debate on, but when you tell me that increasing the cost of boyz by 16.6% and not buffing all of their stats by a similar margin is a buff than I have to call BS on you.
And yet a list with 3 blocks of 30 Evil Sunz and 22 Bad Moon Lootas absolutely crushed a tournament. He faced Tau with Riptides, Tau SS spam, Full IK, Triple Armiger / Beserker / DPs & Ahriman, more Riptides, and Ynnari.
Given that he faced serious anti-infantry lists I'd say the Boyz are just fine regardless of attempts to make a one point nerf sound huge by pulling out the 16% figure.
2018/12/08 21:50:29
Subject: CA Point Changes - a mix of excitement and disappointment
An Actual Englishman wrote: Ah, the typical inane trolling of 'hurr durr if you don't like something sell your army that you've invested a ton of time and money into for a pittance.'
I'll remember this comment when the nerf bat next hits TS and you express any disappointment.
What is your beef? Ork codex and CA was likely written at about the same time - so no changes - this should have been expected.
Current orks are top tier. An unbuffed ork boy was undercosted at 6 points. A 7 point buffed boy with traits and +1 attack is actually better than the 6 point boy was. DE with no changes is actually kind of suprising - I am assuming they used DE as baseline for everything and tried to get every codex up to that level. They did fail miserably at this - but that seems to be what happened.
I agree about CA and ork codex, I wasn't expecting anything major, but at the least I wanted them to give us more in our errata or maybe throw in something in White dwarf for the issue with points for Orkz.
Your next point though is patently false. An unbuffed ork boy was priced correctly at 6, at 7 it is over priced. A 7point buffed boy with traits and +1 attack is actually WORSE than the 6 point boy with the same buffs.
Movement, stayed the same, so they are as slow as ever. We can spend 2 CP to deep strike them though? or my favorite, give them evil sunz and make them faster and better at getting into assault.
Ranged damage. With Dakkax3 orkz are AS good per point as they were without Dakkax3 at 6ppm. So this is a wash....sort of, because realistically boyz prefer Pistols not shootas so if anything we are now paying for extra crap we don't use in 90% of the circumstances.
Close combat: Please explain to me how Less attacks for more points is better? The only CC buff you get is if you take Goffs and then guess what? It works out to being AS GOOD as 6ppm boyz
Durability: Here is where you really lose it. 2 Kultures give you a boost to durability, 1 gives you a 6+FNP which brings them back to where a 6ppm boy was in regards to durability per point. The other faction gives you a 6+ Invuln but that is meh at best since very rarely were people putting -1 or more AP weapons into boyz, so without a doubt durability and point per wound went down by 16% with this.
OVERALL: Each kulture gives a specific buff to boyz, but unless you incorporate 2 or more you are actually WORSE then before and since you can't incorporate 2 or more than boyz are worse point for point then they were in the index where orkz were placing mid to low tier in tournaments relying exclusively on boyz to do the lifting (180-240 boyz per list).
So you can sit there and argue all day that ork boyz needed a nerf, i'll disagree but at least that is a genuine argument you can debate on, but when you tell me that increasing the cost of boyz by 16.6% and not buffing all of their stats by a similar margin is a buff than I have to call BS on you.
And yet a list with 3 blocks of 30 Evil Sunz and 22 Bad Moon Lootas absolutely crushed a tournament. He faced Tau with Riptides, Tau SS spam, Full IK, Triple Armiger / Beserker / DPs & Ahriman, more Riptides, and Ynnari.
Given that he faced serious anti-infantry lists I'd say the Boyz are just fine regardless of attempts to make a one point nerf sound huge by pulling out the 16% figure.
As long as people are obsessed with 1-shotting a knight anti meta lists with tons of cheap dudes that invalidate the anti tank are going to screw up tournaments competitive lists. It doesn't mean that the specific list you mentioned is overpowered. I also played with 25 bad moons lootas and 90 evil sunz boyz with only cheap dudes, characters and no armored stuff. It's a competitive way to play orks but not game breaking, players just need to adapt. Is it ok to tailor a list in order to 1-shotting a knight instead of killing 60+ orks per turn?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/08 21:51:10
2018/12/08 21:53:40
Subject: CA Point Changes - a mix of excitement and disappointment
An Actual Englishman wrote: Ah, the typical inane trolling of 'hurr durr if you don't like something sell your army that you've invested a ton of time and money into for a pittance.'
I'll remember this comment when the nerf bat next hits TS and you express any disappointment.
What is your beef? Ork codex and CA was likely written at about the same time - so no changes - this should have been expected.
Current orks are top tier. An unbuffed ork boy was undercosted at 6 points. A 7 point buffed boy with traits and +1 attack is actually better than the 6 point boy was. DE with no changes is actually kind of suprising - I am assuming they used DE as baseline for everything and tried to get every codex up to that level. They did fail miserably at this - but that seems to be what happened.
I agree about CA and ork codex, I wasn't expecting anything major, but at the least I wanted them to give us more in our errata or maybe throw in something in White dwarf for the issue with points for Orkz.
Your next point though is patently false. An unbuffed ork boy was priced correctly at 6, at 7 it is over priced. A 7point buffed boy with traits and +1 attack is actually WORSE than the 6 point boy with the same buffs.
Movement, stayed the same, so they are as slow as ever. We can spend 2 CP to deep strike them though? or my favorite, give them evil sunz and make them faster and better at getting into assault.
Ranged damage. With Dakkax3 orkz are AS good per point as they were without Dakkax3 at 6ppm. So this is a wash....sort of, because realistically boyz prefer Pistols not shootas so if anything we are now paying for extra crap we don't use in 90% of the circumstances.
Close combat: Please explain to me how Less attacks for more points is better? The only CC buff you get is if you take Goffs and then guess what? It works out to being AS GOOD as 6ppm boyz
Durability: Here is where you really lose it. 2 Kultures give you a boost to durability, 1 gives you a 6+FNP which brings them back to where a 6ppm boy was in regards to durability per point. The other faction gives you a 6+ Invuln but that is meh at best since very rarely were people putting -1 or more AP weapons into boyz, so without a doubt durability and point per wound went down by 16% with this.
OVERALL: Each kulture gives a specific buff to boyz, but unless you incorporate 2 or more you are actually WORSE then before and since you can't incorporate 2 or more than boyz are worse point for point then they were in the index where orkz were placing mid to low tier in tournaments relying exclusively on boyz to do the lifting (180-240 boyz per list).
So you can sit there and argue all day that ork boyz needed a nerf, i'll disagree but at least that is a genuine argument you can debate on, but when you tell me that increasing the cost of boyz by 16.6% and not buffing all of their stats by a similar margin is a buff than I have to call BS on you.
And yet a list with 3 blocks of 30 Evil Sunz and 22 Bad Moon Lootas absolutely crushed a tournament. He faced Tau with Riptides, Tau SS spam, Full IK, Triple Armiger / Beserker / DPs & Ahriman, more Riptides, and Ynnari.
Given that he faced serious anti-infantry lists I'd say the Boyz are just fine regardless of attempts to make a one point nerf sound huge by pulling out the 16% figure.
would be a shame if we didn't play Badmoonz or Evil Sunz like a lot of Ork players.
Seriously don't get this though, I played Evil Sunz mass boyz the other day vs necrons and they just absolutely destroyed them.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/08 21:54:47
2018/12/08 21:56:35
Subject: Re:CA Point Changes - a mix of excitement and disappointment
Guardsmen stay at 4 points and veterans go DOWN to 5 points? Holy hell, I'm glad that some guard stuff that needed it got buffed like sentinels and hydras, but it seems GW is doubling down on guard infantry in the wrong direction.
Another points reduction to vanquishers, lol. GW doesn't get that nobody takes them because they are absolutely horrible at their job, not because they are too expensive. They need to buff the actual weapon profile before they start seeing use, because right now they are glorified lascannons, and nobody is going to take them no matter how cheap they are.
The points drop to GL and flamers was nice, and same with the points drop to med kits, we may actually see guard medics now.
2018/12/08 21:56:44
Subject: CA Point Changes - a mix of excitement and disappointment
w1zard wrote: Another points reduction to vanquishers, lol. GW doesn't get that nobody takes them because they are absolutely horrible at their job, not because they are too expensive. They need to buff the actual weapon profile before they start seeing use, because right now they are glorified lascannons, and nobody is going to take them no matter how cheap they are.
They totally buffed vanquisher cannons. They just renamed them to "Hammer of Sunderance" and made them a relic. My command vanquisher is happy with the results, and having a relic cannon is sort of fluffy for a vanquisher. Plasma sponsons are nice too, and cheaper Techpriests.
Kinda have to say, as a Black Templars player the Ork whining about how put-up they are and how everyone should pity them because they have such a bad book is interesting in the same way that a car crash inevitably draws your gaze.
Soup does nothing for me. I'd have to buy an entirely new army to benefit, because all my stuff is utter rubbish, so the fact that Imperium soup is great right now is just as much a boon for an Ork player as it is for me: squat. At least the Ork Codex is playable. Your army-wide special rule is literally my Chapter Tactics, except better.
"Imperial bias" is absolutely ridiculous. That matters for people who can spend a bunch of money to get a new army every time the meta changes.
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
2018/12/08 22:12:36
Subject: CA Point Changes - a mix of excitement and disappointment
As long as people are obsessed with 1-shotting a knight anti meta lists with tons of cheap dudes that invalidate the anti tank are going to screw up tournaments competitive lists. It doesn't mean that the specific list you mentioned is overpowered. I also played with 25 bad moons lootas and 90 evil sunz boyz with only cheap dudes, characters and no armored stuff. It's a competitive way to play orks but not game breaking, players just need to adapt. Is it ok to tailor a list in order to 1-shotting a knight instead of killing 60+ orks per turn?
Yea I don't think that list is particularly abusive. The other end is that people need to adjust and as they do these lists will be less effective, but still capable.
2018/12/08 22:38:01
Subject: Re:CA Point Changes - a mix of excitement and disappointment
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Kinda have to say, as a Black Templars player the Ork whining about how put-up they are and how everyone should pity them because they have such a bad book is interesting in the same way that a car crash inevitably draws your gaze.
Soup does nothing for me. I'd have to buy an entirely new army to benefit, because all my stuff is utter rubbish, so the fact that Imperium soup is great right now is just as much a boon for an Ork player as it is for me: squat. At least the Ork Codex is playable. Your army-wide special rule is literally my Chapter Tactics, except better.
"Imperial bias" is absolutely ridiculous. That matters for people who can spend a bunch of money to get a new army every time the meta changes.
You can play your black templars as ultramarines if you want. I'm sure the majority of orks players have their army painted with a single klan colour but they decide what kultur to play regardless of the paint job. My entire army is painted like goffs but gamewise there's no reason to take certain units under that specific kultur. No way I'm going to buy the same stuff I already own just to pant it in the right color scheme. There's no official and unofficial rule that involves paint job.
Ultramarines are definitely playable, even without allies. Even more after CA.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/08 22:39:21
2018/12/08 23:02:42
Subject: Re:CA Point Changes - a mix of excitement and disappointment
w1zard wrote: Another points reduction to vanquishers, lol. GW doesn't get that nobody takes them because they are absolutely horrible at their job, not because they are too expensive. They need to buff the actual weapon profile before they start seeing use, because right now they are glorified lascannons, and nobody is going to take them no matter how cheap they are.
They totally buffed vanquisher cannons. They just renamed them to "Hammer of Sunderance" and made them a relic. My command vanquisher is happy with the results, and having a relic cannon is sort of fluffy for a vanquisher. Plasma sponsons are nice too, and cheaper Techpriests.
What about somebody who wants to run three vanquishers?
Vanquishers are garbage this edition, and are still garbage even after the points drop. They are garbage NOT because they are too expensive, but because the vanquisher cannon itself is mathematically inferior to the battle cannon in every way, including in the anti-tank role which is supposed to be the ONLY purpose of the vanquisher cannon.
Vanquisher cannons should do 2d6 damage and cost the same as a battle cannon. Fixed. They only get one shot but they should hit like trucks. Its not a crazy a buff as you may think, it just takes the average damage from 4.5 up to 7, which is enough to make it better against vehicles than the battle cannon but worse against infantry like it should be.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/12/08 23:05:11
2018/12/08 23:03:40
Subject: Re:CA Point Changes - a mix of excitement and disappointment
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Kinda have to say, as a Black Templars player the Ork whining about how put-up they are and how everyone should pity them because they have such a bad book is interesting in the same way that a car crash inevitably draws your gaze.
Soup does nothing for me. I'd have to buy an entirely new army to benefit, because all my stuff is utter rubbish, so the fact that Imperium soup is great right now is just as much a boon for an Ork player as it is for me: squat. At least the Ork Codex is playable. Your army-wide special rule is literally my Chapter Tactics, except better.
"Imperial bias" is absolutely ridiculous. That matters for people who can spend a bunch of money to get a new army every time the meta changes.
You can play your black templars as ultramarines if you want.
No, no I can't. Tactical Squads can't take bolt pistol/chainswords, see. I'd also have to get Guilliman, bolter Scouts, and a bunch of other stuff. Hence having to buy an entirely new army.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/08 23:03:50
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
2018/12/08 23:05:55
Subject: CA Point Changes - a mix of excitement and disappointment
SHUPPET wrote: doesn't it take like months to get these things through print? people whining about Orkz in here astound me
Nobody is whining about Ork points not being in CA.
Some people are complaining that other armies got points reductions on things that are comparable to ork things, making Orks comparatively worse. As you say, these books take months, so it's weird that the Ork codex writer didn't know power fists were getting cheaper.
Some people are also pointing out that a common apologist excuse that Boyz went up in points in the Codex because Infantry Squads would go up in points in CA has been proven false and apologists are now moving goalposts, as apologists do.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/08 23:08:20
The old meta is dead and the new meta struggles to be born. Now is the time of munchkins.
2018/12/08 23:06:29
Subject: Re:CA Point Changes - a mix of excitement and disappointment
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Kinda have to say, as a Black Templars player the Ork whining about how put-up they are and how everyone should pity them because they have such a bad book is interesting in the same way that a car crash inevitably draws your gaze.
Soup does nothing for me. I'd have to buy an entirely new army to benefit, because all my stuff is utter rubbish, so the fact that Imperium soup is great right now is just as much a boon for an Ork player as it is for me: squat. At least the Ork Codex is playable. Your army-wide special rule is literally my Chapter Tactics, except better.
"Imperial bias" is absolutely ridiculous. That matters for people who can spend a bunch of money to get a new army every time the meta changes.
You can play your black templars as ultramarines if you want. I'm sure the majority of orks players have their army painted with a single klan colour but they decide what kultur to play regardless of the paint job.
Then they still have a better army than Ultramarines so no complaints?
P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it.
2018/12/08 23:12:50
Subject: Re:CA Point Changes - a mix of excitement and disappointment
w1zard wrote: What about somebody who wants to run three vanquishers?
Vanquishers are garbage this edition, and are still garbage even after the points drop. They are garbage NOT because they are too expensive, but because the vanquisher cannon itself is mathematically inferior to the battle cannon in every way, including in the anti-tank role which is supposed to be the ONLY purpose of the vanquisher cannon.
Vanquisher cannons should do 2d6 damage and cost the same as a battle cannon. Fixed. They only get one shot but they should hit like trucks. Its not a crazy a buff as you may think, it just takes the average damage from 4.5 up to 7.
Oh I agree that vanquishers are pretty bad these days, I have been running one purely because I love my model:
Spoiler:
I guess you could proxy them as annihilators, although that is a bit of a cop-out really. You can't get command annihilators either. Maybe a commander with the relic and two annihilators? It's all just trying to make the best of bad rules but what else can you do? Have to make do with what we have.
Xenomancers wrote: A 7point buffed boy with traits and +1 attack is actually WORSE than the 6 point boy with the same buffs.
Yeah ofc - but a lot better than a 6 point boy without them. Evil suns is trait alone is worth 1 point. Plus you get dakka dakka and +1 attack. It's not even worth arguing.
Boyz had that +1A also in the index. Dakkadakkadakka for the boyz means an average of 3 additional hits at S4 no AP with a 30 man mob of shoota boyz. 60 dice to get +3 hits without the rule. +1 or 2 hits if the unit is equipped with sluggas instead of shootas. It means 0-1 more cheap dude like a 4pts guardsmen dead by ork shooting if the boyz unit is at full strenght. Yeah, it's not even worth arguing.
It's not - anyone with half a brain knows orks are top tier. Plus everyone knows space marines are bottom and you say they are competitive. It's kind of mind boggling.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
2018/12/08 23:23:45
Subject: CA Point Changes - a mix of excitement and disappointment
Xenomancers wrote: A 7point buffed boy with traits and +1 attack is actually WORSE than the 6 point boy with the same buffs.
Yeah ofc - but a lot better than a 6 point boy without them. Evil suns is trait alone is worth 1 point. Plus you get dakka dakka and +1 attack. It's not even worth arguing.
Boyz had that +1A also in the index. Dakkadakkadakka for the boyz means an average of 3 additional hits at S4 no AP with a 30 man mob of shoota boyz. 60 dice to get +3 hits without the rule. +1 or 2 hits if the unit is equipped with sluggas instead of shootas. It means 0-1 more cheap dude like a 4pts guardsmen dead by ork shooting if the boyz unit is at full strenght. Yeah, it's not even worth arguing.
It's not - anyone with half a brain knows orks are top tier. Plus everyone knows space marines are bottom and you say they are competitive. It's kind of mind boggling.
Well... it completely depends if you are playing Warhammer or ITChammer, ITChammer is completely different than BRB warhammer. Not everyone plays ITC or even cares about ITC.
Marine suck at every level. That might change now but really it's unlikely. Intercessors going down 1 point doesn't make a hoot of a difference if disintegrators are still 15 points - most of the drops marines got were not enough.
You really think anyone is going to be brining landspeeder typhons now that they are 80ish points? Or people will be playing 300 point land raiders? Or 120 point cent which a dread with twin las and missle costs exactly the same? Heck guard buffs are even better than the marine ones...why would anyone take marines?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh but I can get 3 attack intercessors for 2 CP. AMAZING.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/08 23:31:26
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
2018/12/08 23:33:14
Subject: CA Point Changes - a mix of excitement and disappointment
SHUPPET wrote: doesn't it take like months to get these things through print? people whining about Orkz in here astound me
where not upset we don;t have changes, we're upset our codex wasn't taken into consideration with the changes in CA. Power Fist, for example, being 4pts less than a Power Klaw for example. Or Heavy Flamers being a few points less than Our Skorcha's dispite Skorcha's getting no price reduction.
Xenomancers wrote: A 7point buffed boy with traits and +1 attack is actually WORSE than the 6 point boy with the same buffs.
Yeah ofc - but a lot better than a 6 point boy without them. Evil suns is trait alone is worth 1 point. Plus you get dakka dakka and +1 attack. It's not even worth arguing.
Boyz had that +1A also in the index. Dakkadakkadakka for the boyz means an average of 3 additional hits at S4 no AP with a 30 man mob of shoota boyz. 60 dice to get +3 hits without the rule. +1 or 2 hits if the unit is equipped with sluggas instead of shootas. It means 0-1 more cheap dude like a 4pts guardsmen dead by ork shooting if the boyz unit is at full strenght. Yeah, it's not even worth arguing.
It's not - anyone with half a brain knows orks are top tier. Plus everyone knows space marines are bottom and you say they are competitive. It's kind of mind boggling.
Well... it completely depends if you are playing Warhammer or ITChammer, ITChammer is completely different than BRB warhammer. Not everyone plays ITC or even cares about ITC.
I don;t even know what ITC is!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/08 23:34:29
2018/12/08 23:53:40
Subject: CA Point Changes - a mix of excitement and disappointment
ITC is basically the go to competitive format here in the states. It's basically the regular game with some house rules. It really doesn't change what units are good or bad. Good units are just good or what units are bad.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
2018/12/08 23:59:32
Subject: CA Point Changes - a mix of excitement and disappointment
Xenomancers wrote: Marine suck at every level. That might change now but really it's unlikely. Intercessors going down 1 point doesn't make a hoot of a difference if disintegrators are still 15 points - most of the drops marines got were not enough.
You really think anyone is going to be brining landspeeder typhons now that they are 80ish points? Or people will be playing 300 point land raiders? Or 120 point cent which a dread with twin las and missle costs exactly the same? Heck guard buffs are even better than the marine ones...why would anyone take marines?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh but I can get 3 attack intercessors for 2 CP. AMAZING.
DE counters marines, thats not fair to say marines are bad b.c they are Rock and paper kills them. Thats like saying Knights are bad b.c of Harlequins with HWC's.
Anyways, Dis cannons are still not the good against marines, well as good as you think they are, 3 Ravagers with Re-rolls kills 13 SM's, so you are talking about 450pts of Tanks and HQ killing 2.5 5mans, and thats if they are NOT in cover, as soon as they are in cover its 10-11 marines, if they rolled bad its 9-10. So its 10 Marines dead to literally 1/4 my army shooting you that OP?
We got it, you are angry because grey knights were not reduced to the costs of guardsmen, don't need to make 100 posts a day about this.
GK received LOADS of buffs, many more than other factions. Contrarily to other factions though, they received them on units that were actually taken, while all the other factions didn't see a single buff to the external power, they were all internal adjustments without any real effect on the competitiveness of the faction. Necrons, Admech and GK were the only factions actually buffed (and tank commanders, for some reason).
You can say that the buffs were not enough, and i actually agree with that, the buffs GK received were not enough, but saying that everyone got better and GK were left in the dust is just plain untrue and makes you look like a troll.
Ok, I guess we are going to have to wait 2-3 months and see how many GK armies will be played around the world. To me if all armies get point drops, then the point drops to fix something would have to be as you said. Something super drastic, like a full armed strike costing 14pts. the drops are not enough to fix anything. There is no buffs to GK, when the army is already over priced. If I play a 2000pts army, get a 200pts points drop, but my army is over priced by 300pts. Then the drop isn't helping me much. If at the same time my opponents IG soup army gets the same 200pts drop, but his army was at worse costing real 2000pts, and if it goes by what haters say it was having 100-150 free IG points, then where is the GK buff.
You compare GK to units tzeench armies don't even use. And use it as a supposed example as GK getting better, when they still both cost worse and shot worse. But hey they are better at melee. They can't reach it, but that is no problem right? Or if they do it is something that is actually good at melee and they just die.
And this is where you are wrong. Top GK lists gained some points to play around, other competitive lists received almost nothing, if not straight out nerfs. You say that everyone received points reduction, but that is not true. Only those people that played sub optimal models got them, and that is a good thing. I didn't see banana captains go down, i saw wardens go down. Have you ever seen a warden on the table?
Onyl Admech, Necrons and GK received buffs to models and weapons that they were already using, everyone else only received buffs on models you never saw on the table (and tank commanders ).
This CA is one of the better publications made by GW, they reduced the gap between good lists and bad lists by a huge margin.
Is this enough for GK? No it isn't, the gap was really too big and while it is now surely reduced, they are still a mid-bottom faction (still in a much better situation than pre-CA2018).
2018/12/09 00:13:59
Subject: Re:CA Point Changes - a mix of excitement and disappointment
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Kinda have to say, as a Black Templars player the Ork whining about how put-up they are and how everyone should pity them because they have such a bad book is interesting in the same way that a car crash inevitably draws your gaze.
Soup does nothing for me. I'd have to buy an entirely new army to benefit, because all my stuff is utter rubbish, so the fact that Imperium soup is great right now is just as much a boon for an Ork player as it is for me: squat. At least the Ork Codex is playable. Your army-wide special rule is literally my Chapter Tactics, except better.
"Imperial bias" is absolutely ridiculous. That matters for people who can spend a bunch of money to get a new army every time the meta changes.
You can play your black templars as ultramarines if you want.
No, no I can't. Tactical Squads can't take bolt pistol/chainswords, see. I'd also have to get Guilliman, bolter Scouts, and a bunch of other stuff. Hence having to buy an entirely new army.
You could always use Intercessors as Crusader Squads that also have the shooty output of well, intercessors. Guilliman could be proxied by a Leviathan Dreadnought Templar Marshall.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/09 00:14:32
“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
2018/12/09 00:21:12
Subject: CA Point Changes - a mix of excitement and disappointment
Xenomancers wrote: Marine suck at every level. That might change now but really it's unlikely. Intercessors going down 1 point doesn't make a hoot of a difference if disintegrators are still 15 points - most of the drops marines got were not enough.
You really think anyone is going to be brining landspeeder typhons now that they are 80ish points? Or people will be playing 300 point land raiders? Or 120 point cent which a dread with twin las and missle costs exactly the same? Heck guard buffs are even better than the marine ones...why would anyone take marines?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh but I can get 3 attack intercessors for 2 CP. AMAZING.
Wait, a Centurion with two Lascannons and the Missiles cost the same as a Dread before the points drop. The Cent should be 25 points cheaper now. (Grumbles about Twin Las going down to 40 and regular Las staying the same.)
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Kinda have to say, as a Black Templars player the Ork whining about how put-up they are and how everyone should pity them because they have such a bad book is interesting in the same way that a car crash inevitably draws your gaze.
Soup does nothing for me. I'd have to buy an entirely new army to benefit, because all my stuff is utter rubbish, so the fact that Imperium soup is great right now is just as much a boon for an Ork player as it is for me: squat. At least the Ork Codex is playable. Your army-wide special rule is literally my Chapter Tactics, except better.
"Imperial bias" is absolutely ridiculous. That matters for people who can spend a bunch of money to get a new army every time the meta changes.
You can play your black templars as ultramarines if you want.
No, no I can't. Tactical Squads can't take bolt pistol/chainswords, see. I'd also have to get Guilliman, bolter Scouts, and a bunch of other stuff. Hence having to buy an entirely new army.
You could always use Intercessors as Crusader Squads that also have the shooty output of well, intercessors. Guilliman could be proxied by a Leviathan Dreadnought Templar Marshall.
And Orks are still a better army with any of their Kultures (outside Snakebites, and I honestly plan to make a thread about these 6+++ factions).
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2018/12/09 00:39:50
Subject: CA Point Changes - a mix of excitement and disappointment
Xenomancers wrote: A 7point buffed boy with traits and +1 attack is actually WORSE than the 6 point boy with the same buffs.
Yeah ofc - but a lot better than a 6 point boy without them. Evil suns is trait alone is worth 1 point. Plus you get dakka dakka and +1 attack. It's not even worth arguing.
I know we're just feeding a fed horse at this point, but how much did Eldar pay for -1 to be hit trait, for example?
Did eldar units also gain 2 abilities on their data sheets like ork boys did? Retorical question OFC.
Couple things, a 7pt boy with the new traits AND the army wide dakkax3 is WORSE than a 6pt boy without the new traits and dakkax3, that is self evident by the mere fact that we no longer see lists of 180+ boyz competing in tournaments, if they are truly better now then they were 3 months ago, why aren't people taking even MORE boyz instead of taking the bare minimum....or hell in some cases none?. The +1 attack with 20+ boyz has been a thing since 8th dropped so I don't know why you brought that up to begin with.
So again, Orkz get Kulture, which literally every other faction got, but for some reason that means we need to be hit with the nerf hammer? A bit silly. And did Eldar get 2 army wide special rules? No idea, I don't play Eldar, but I do know that Orkz get Dakkax3.....which LITERALLY MAKES BOYS AS GOOD AS THEY WERE BEFORE, and then a handful of units that actually shoot for a living and are decent at it, get a small buff. Keep in mind, Dakkax3 means we go from 33.33% Chance to hit to 38.88% chance to hit. Hooray for a 5% increased chance to hit
The only thing holding up the codex right now from being complete garbage is evil sunz kulture teamed with Codex: Deep strike for unarguably the strongest turn 2 beta strike in the game and then for our shooting units, we get a 2cp shoot twice strat that can be teamed with a 2cp dakkax3 strat that lets us shoot another shot on 5s and 6s. I like people telling me how Lootas are the pinnacle of shooting in the game right now because 1 tournament of data And on the note of 1 tournament won by orkz.....We have the newest codex, the newest strats, the newest army basically, its going to take people a bit to adjust from fighting 210 boyz as a norm to fighting a bunch of turn 2 deep strikers and a big blob of Lootas hiding behind some grotz. Fun fact, want to know how to beat a Loota Bomb and kill about 1/4th of an ork army that is using a Loota bomb? ATTACK IT IN CLOSE COMBAT. Shooting the piss out of grots isn't going to help you that much, just get stuck in or god forbid....deep strike closer to the lootas then the grots and then shoot the lootas.
Cephalobeard wrote: No Infantry point changes, no datasheet changes, oh my God this erection may literally never end.
It just all tastes so good. All of the anger. Mm.
meow.
I honestly couldn't care less about our boyz though... it's our HQ's that piss me off... Basically our main HQ's (apart from weirdboy) wen't up in price. The Warboss, Ghaz, Big mek with kff is only in MA now.... Painboy (not a hq but hq support). Yet, in chapter approved all these characters got huge massive points reductions in mostly all factions! Yarrik got a points drop! Have you ever played a game against him as Orks? His ability is nasty! It's not just out boyz we're losing points on... it;s all the support we're forced to bring as well.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/12/09 00:51:05
15k+
Emperor's Spears 2500
Beastmen 10k
).
And on the note of 1 tournament won by orkz.....We have the newest codex, the newest strats, the newest army basically, its going to take people a bit to adjust from fighting 210 boyz as a norm to fighting a bunch of turn 2 deep strikers and a big blob of Lootas hiding behind some grotz. Fun fact, want to know how to beat a Loota Bomb and kill about 1/4th of an ork army that is using a Loota bomb? ATTACK 
