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 Zid wrote:

 ZergSmasher wrote:
For players wanting to go with lots of armor now that Daemon Engines and Helbrutes are cheaper, I wonder if taking a Renegade Knight would be a smart move. Your opponents can either shoot the Knight or try to pop all of your Helbrutes. All about saturation.

And as for the Helbrutes, my feeling is to go with Alpha Legion for shooty ones, and Renegades or World Eaters for Scourge/Fist ones (Zangiefbrutes). Pity that three of my 5 'brutes are the monopose Dark Vengeance ones, which are still not an optimum loadout even with the price drops.

The double Gat Knight is never a bad option... honestly, I would always use mine if I could; he is very good. Really we have to see where the meta shifts.

I will say combining Renegade Knights with a Poxbringer w/ shriveling pox has become one of my favorite strats....

For hellbrutes...especially the Khorne ones, why not grab a Korgoroth from Age of Sigmar? It has a fist on one hand, and a mouth of tentacles for the other. Sounds like a scourge and hellbrute fist to me. Should be cheap as hell on eBay and have proper loadout for Khorne built right in. And it’s the right size.

 Zid wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
With the points drops, I wonder if Forgefiends/Maulerfiends became viable. I love those models and I'm planning an Iron Warriors army so thematically they fit but the 4+ to hit is so awful.

On that note, what about the Defiler? Also a cool looking and thematic model.

If you can scrape toghether enough cheap CP, (by whatever means necessary) the stratagem can help you with your problems. Also Warpsmith at 60ppm fully kitted, can also increase toughness off them. Defiler now seems like a really decent option, but even the forgefiend has dropped massively, (hades cannons and itself)

I would love to see the Demon Engines make a comeback; for me the Forgefiend (and Maulerfiend) lack the versatility of the Defiler. Defiler has guns, CC, and everything, wrapped into one neat package, plus a lot more wounds. The fiends look great, but they will probably die before doing too much, and why would you spend more on those when you could take a Hellbrute for much less (and its easier to hide)?

I'm interested to see what people come up with in this brave new meta, though. Myself, I fully intend to start testing the two Defilers I just acquired in competitive games; they are much easier to tack into a list sub 300 points, gives me two battle cannons, some AC and bolter shots, and not to mention are a huge threat in CC. Plus they provide mobile cover; I can actually half obscure my Renegade Knight behind one... 2+ armor save woo!

That is tasty. And good point about the fiends. You may have sold me on the defiler.

My personal current setup that i have had a lot of success with is

Black legion

Abaddon
Sorcerer w/ mark of slaanesh

40 cultists

Forgefiend w/ autocannons and plasma head
Maulerfiend w/ lasher tenticals
Defiler w/ twin las and scourge


I also take a detachment of 2 heralds on seekers of slaanesh and 3 groups of 10 demonettes.

Then i fill the rest of the points in with whatever else i want to take, be it demonprinces or chaos marines or whatever.

This setup has been quite effective in my local meta. Abaddon keeps defiler, forgefiend, and cultists hitting properly without cp needed, also keeps cultists from running away. Demonettes, heralds, and maulerfiend rush forward to be a smash squad (had the mauletfiend smash right into a venerable dreadnaught on turn one and utterly destroy it then consolidated into a predator, mvp of that game).

These point changes have made me very happy. I may run 3 dakka hellbrutes in this now for more fun with abaddon...

Wayniac wrote:

 Zid wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
With the points drops, I wonder if Forgefiends/Maulerfiends became viable. I love those models and I'm planning an Iron Warriors army so thematically they fit but the 4+ to hit is so awful.

On that note, what about the Defiler? Also a cool looking and thematic model.

If you can scrape toghether enough cheap CP, (by whatever means necessary) the stratagem can help you with your problems. Also Warpsmith at 60ppm fully kitted, can also increase toughness off them. Defiler now seems like a really decent option, but even the forgefiend has dropped massively, (hades cannons and itself)

I would love to see the Demon Engines make a comeback; for me the Forgefiend (and Maulerfiend) lack the versatility of the Defiler. Defiler has guns, CC, and everything, wrapped into one neat package, plus a lot more wounds. The fiends look great, but they will probably die before doing too much, and why would you spend more on those when you could take a Hellbrute for much less (and its easier to hide)?

I'm interested to see what people come up with in this brave new meta, though. Myself, I fully intend to start testing the two Defilers I just acquired in competitive games; they are much easier to tack into a list sub 300 points, gives me two battle cannons, some AC and bolter shots, and not to mention are a huge threat in CC. Plus they provide mobile cover; I can actually half obscure my Renegade Knight behind one... 2+ armor save woo!

That is tasty. And good point about the fiends. You may have sold me on the defiler.

Look out for me using some in future reps; my tourney this weekend is pre-CA 2018, so I won't be using them. However, after the change, they cost slightly more than my go-to PBC's, so I intend to test them thoroughly. I just want a couple Contemptors to add in to the list idea I'm working... Death guard spearhead, 2 defilers, 2 contemptors, lord, 1 PBC w/ entropy cannons, Renegade gatling knight (maybe two armigers for the CP), then probably a Daemon battalion... seems like it could do some damage

For Iron Warriors I'm considering going heavy on the tanks and engines, because thematic. With the increase to cultists it seems more likely I'll want min units to fill up a battalion rather than a big blob, then add Chosen/Havocs and some tanks and dreadnoughts. I am a big fan of Helbrutes (not the model though, I plan to convert some loyalist dreads into something like the old Ferrum Infernus FW dread) and they got a points drop as well. So ideally several dreads, defilers, tanks and other things. DOubt it will be incredibly competitive but in local events, it should be decent.

Maulerfield with Lashers and Dual Scourge Helbrute are roughly equivalent units now. Similar costs and number of attacks. The helbrute is slightly ahead in offense due to the 3+ WS, and doesn't degrade, but the maulerfiend comes in ahead in speed and durability. If you have daemon buffs, then maulerfiend probably pulls ahead.

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
Maulerfield with Lashers and Dual Scourge Helbrute are roughly equivalent units now. Similar costs and number of attacks. The helbrute is slightly ahead in offense due to the 3+ WS, and doesn't degrade, but the maulerfiend comes in ahead in speed and durability. If you have daemon buffs, then maulerfiend probably pulls ahead.

Helbrutes can hide though, which can be a nice surprise unit because people may ignore them til they are too late.

The best use would probably slaneesh with a slaanesh herald nearby, but i wouldn't waste much effort in buffing them with psykers other than warptime and maybe prescience. Sadly, though, noise marines, havoks, and oblits are still better point for point.

Infernal Rapturess can resurrect a dead Slaanesh Daemon unit member on a 6. With her anti-psyker ability, possibility there to be the modest midfield support character hanging out with Obliterators

Correct me If i am wrong, but so far i though obliterators dont have the daemon keyword?

Just checked, jup i was wrong.
I think i will pick up a wrath and rapture box then

 lindsay40k wrote:
Infernal Rapturess can resurrect a dead Slaanesh Daemon unit member on a 6. With her anti-psyker ability, possibility there to be the modest midfield support character hanging out with Obliterators

That's not a bad idea as her movement is probably not that high anyway.

 Sersi wrote:

 lindsay40k wrote:
Infernal Rapturess can resurrect a dead Slaanesh Daemon unit member on a 6. With her anti-psyker ability, possibility there to be the modest midfield support character hanging out with Obliterators

That's not a bad idea as her movement is probably not that high anyway.

Would be safe to assume same movement as Daemonettes so not super fast but quick enough to move around midfield with advancing

 lindsay40k wrote:
Infernal Rapturess can resurrect a dead Slaanesh Daemon unit member on a 6. With her anti-psyker ability, possibility there to be the modest midfield support character hanging out with Obliterators

Assuming they don't FAQ the ability to only work on Codex: Daemons units. Otherwise, she'd be good with Oblits. Stupid good, in fact! Might be okay with Possessed too.

I think forgefiends are worth a look. They are a very good candidate for daemonforge. Better than Defilers who like to charge forward and get into combat. If you go with a forgefiend with jaws, its just 148 points. A tri head forgefiend is 160 points. Its very cheap. Plus it has a 5++ invul and infernal regen. So its a harder target to destroy than a hellbrute.

I would try just one and see how it goes. I am considering plama cannons for my hellbrutes now. Its not bad ah. d3 Str 8 shots at ap-3 for a flat 2 damage. Its only slightly more expensive than a reaper autocannon.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
I think forgefiends are worth a look. They are a very good candidate for daemonforge. Better than Defilers who like to charge forward and get into combat. If you go with a forgefiend with jaws, its just 148 points. A tri head forgefiend is 160 points. Its very cheap. Plus it has a 5++ invul and infernal regen. So its a harder target to destroy than a hellbrute.

With the price drop on Forgefiends I can finally dust off the 3 I have on my shelf, Ecto plasma is still a trap though, I wouldn't bother. If each was D6 shots or D3+3 it would be worth a glance.

At that price point, having Daemonforge is just icing on the cake. Just keep them near a reroll machine.

3 forgefiends + Kharn for full rerolls might be a very solid firebase now.
Good Firepower, and Khar can shred any approaching melee threat.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
At that price point, having Daemonforge is just icing on the cake. Just keep them near a reroll machine.

I'd imagine you would take a CSM lord and a warpsmith, which babysit 2-Dakka fiends and a defiler? Why a defiler? mainly for some melee defence?
Would make a decent spearhead.

Add in some CP battery (R&H battalion/ Brigade, Cultist with warpsmiths and a sorcerer,) I'd imagine that generating 10 additional CP would probably be required to get enough "CP-Fuel"

Ofcourse there is always the possibility to get a cheaper "vanguard" with 3 dakka brutes and a warpsmith. I imgine that a missile, reaper combo would lead to an ammount of decent dakka.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:

 Ap0k wrote:
You're not reading what he's asking. He's not asking about legion traits.

He's asking if you can get WE Troop Zerkers and EC Troop Noise Marines and BL Abaddon into the same detachment, to which the answer is yes, because you can link them all with [HERETIC ASTARTES].

Said detachment won't get access to the legion traits or stratagems, but if he had another pure [LEGION] detachment in the same army, that detachment would unlock the strats he's losing out on, and obviously the legion trait for itself only.

The answer is no. All units in one detachment have to have the same LEGION, if they don't, they won't belong to any legion. So with Abaddon you can only have a Black Legion detachment, where Berzerkers and Noise Marines can never be troop choices, as only WE/EC become troop choices, not Black Legion Berzerkers/ Noise Marines. You can connect them via heretic astartes to play them, but that means no legion bonus, no nothing, no troop choice.

Actually the legion still matters. I don't know enough about CSM so I use my orks as example. I have detachment that mixes both goffs and bad moons. Now none of those would get goff/bad moon trait bonuses. HOWEVER I could give goff/bad moon relics to respective models. I could also use their respective strategems so goff boyz could be upgraded to skarboyz and bad moon lootas could shoot twice. They would both be bad moon/goff models but without klan bonus.

Is the berserkers as troop having specific LEGION text(which it has) or the benefit of having that LEGION? In above ork example there is GOFF in the keywords of goff units and BAD MOON on bad moon units so if say mega nobz would be able to be taken if they are GOFF unit they would be troops even if detachment had bad moon units as well. If it required benefitting from GOFF trait then no.

Eldenfirefly wrote:

I would try just one and see how it goes. I am considering plama cannons for my hellbrutes now. Its not bad ah. d3 Str 8 shots at ap-3 for a flat 2 damage. Its only slightly more expensive than a reaper autocannon.

Sure, the price drop is nice, but you gotta be careful with the plasma cannon helbrutes. If they move, that's -1 to hit from the Heavy weapon. Also, I'd expect to have at least another -1 from some sort of legion or craftworld trait which now puts you at -2. HB Plasma is always overcharged so now your in a situation where you use the stratagem to ignore the Heavy penalty, or you face suffering mortal wounds on 2's, and hitting on 5's. Sure, there's always a chance that you suffer a mortal wound which then procs the crazed rule, but that's a 1 in 6 chance and almost unreliable. The payout doesn't sound quite right at this point.

 Zid wrote:

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
Maulerfield with Lashers and Dual Scourge Helbrute are roughly equivalent units now. Similar costs and number of attacks. The helbrute is slightly ahead in offense due to the 3+ WS, and doesn't degrade, but the maulerfiend comes in ahead in speed and durability. If you have daemon buffs, then maulerfiend probably pulls ahead.

Helbrutes can hide though, which can be a nice surprise unit because people may ignore them til they are too late.

The best use would probably slaneesh with a slaanesh herald nearby, but i wouldn't waste much effort in buffing them with psykers other than warptime and maybe prescience. Sadly, though, noise marines, havoks, and oblits are still better point for point.

That's a big give in 8th. Any decent army is seeing them or can move to see them. If you totally hide them, your now walking around that cover which means they waste a turn and just expose themselves later. Counter assault is a consideration, but characters are so much better, they hide in plain sight and can intervene as well as buff. Hellbrutes went down which is nice for sure, but they go pop just as easily as before. The best strategy for them is to by a twin las and rocket and sit next to abby with a crap load more las canons from marines. Mxing weapons is a waste, and the combat variety require renagades in order to be fast enough. I'd never take one over a mauler fiend. Mauler has 50% more wounds without factoring regen, can advance and assault when using slaanesh demon allies, is faster stock out the gate and hits harder due to having access to one of the most powerful strats in the game.

I think there is a valid debate on maulers or defilers, but helbrutes are not even in the same league still. The lack of invuln means they work OK for applying saturation of fire at range but that's all I'd use em for.

Forgefiend still sucks. It would need to be 100 flat before I'd take one again. I tried to make it work countless times prior to CA, it was not the points that killed it, the points just crucified the dead body. They just don't do anything all game, and that's including baby sitting them with abby. Abby is too good to waste on them and I feel like he is the only viable solution. No way I am wasting my CP on Demon Forging that things guns. I need those for better units.

You make a great point about characters actually that I never really thought about. I appreciate the lasher tendrils are the better option but if you don't take those, the mauler gives you 4 s12 attacks -3 3D
That new lord gives you 4 attacks with his thunder hammer at S8 -3 3D. Okay so the strength is lower, but he hits on 3s and rerolls 1s. Buffs others, doesn't degrade and can't be targeted. Okay, the mauler absorbs your opponents anti tank etc but it's made me think.

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Zid wrote:

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
Maulerfield with Lashers and Dual Scourge Helbrute are roughly equivalent units now. Similar costs and number of attacks. The helbrute is slightly ahead in offense due to the 3+ WS, and doesn't degrade, but the maulerfiend comes in ahead in speed and durability. If you have daemon buffs, then maulerfiend probably pulls ahead.

Helbrutes can hide though, which can be a nice surprise unit because people may ignore them til they are too late.

The best use would probably slaneesh with a slaanesh herald nearby, but i wouldn't waste much effort in buffing them with psykers other than warptime and maybe prescience. Sadly, though, noise marines, havoks, and oblits are still better point for point.

That's a big give in 8th. Any decent army is seeing them or can move to see them. If you totally hide them, your now walking around that cover which means they waste a turn and just expose themselves later. Counter assault is a consideration, but characters are so much better, they hide in plain sight and can intervene as well as buff. Hellbrutes went down which is nice for sure, but they go pop just as easily as before. The best strategy for them is to by a twin las and rocket and sit next to abby with a crap load more las canons from marines. Mxing weapons is a waste, and the combat variety require renagades in order to be fast enough. I'd never take one over a mauler fiend. Mauler has 50% more wounds without factoring regen, can advance and assault when using slaanesh demon allies, is faster stock out the gate and hits harder due to having access to one of the most powerful strats in the game.

I think there is a valid debate on maulers or defilers, but helbrutes are not even in the same league still. The lack of invuln means they work OK for applying saturation of fire at range but that's all I'd use em for.

Forgefiend still sucks. It would need to be 100 flat before I'd take one again. I tried to make it work countless times prior to CA, it was not the points that killed it, the points just crucified the dead body. They just don't do anything all game, and that's including baby sitting them with abby. Abby is too good to waste on them and I feel like he is the only viable solution. No way I am wasting my CP on Demon Forging that things guns. I need those for better units.

Yes, Hellbrutes die easily. Thats why I think the key thing is to keep them super cheap. And fire frenzy and possibly crazed (have to remember that rule) increases their firepower. If they can be kept in cover, their save improves. In any case, in an army where you have a lot of other armour, if they want to waste their precious anti armour guns shooting at cheap hellbrutes over other stuff, then I guess they are welcome to do so.

If you plan to use daemonforge on Forgefiends, then you don't need Abaddon to babysit one. Maybe keep forgefiends cheap at 148 point too (don't go tri head forgefiend). I will try one. They are a good candidate for daemon forge unless you actually want to use your daemon forge on a defiler. (not the best choice really).

Contemptors and Deredeos have caught some eyes, but has anyone noticed both drop pods are cheaper? Two thirds of the 2017 price hike on Kharybdis has been slashed. Can't warptime it at your opponent any more (unless you start it on the board...!), but there we go

 lindsay40k wrote:
Contemptors and Deredeos have caught some eyes, but has anyone noticed both drop pods are cheaper? Two thirds of the 2017 price hike on Kharybdis has been slashed. Can't warptime it at your opponent any more (unless you start it on the board...!), but there we go

Screening units can't be flown over with Warptime anymore.

Aaaah. Forgot about that new rule. So, it flies at them in the movement phase, in the psychic phase it grinds along handrails at the same speed, in the charge phase it stampedes on its blade struts, and in the fight phase it rolls around, all of the latter three able to be blocked by a single model. Yeah, that does significantly limit its ability to wreak mayhem. In fact, I daresay it’s original points cost might well be overpriced with this new limitation.

It can still zoom up and glomp screening units on turn one, with a score of Berzerkers inside revving up for turn two, but jumping in and incinerating half an army is out. Put Delightful Agonies on it (until monotheist transports are errata’d to be incompatible with heathens), though, and that’s an unignorable distraction carnifex.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Screening units can't be flown over with Warptime anymore.

Care to explain ? Warptime allows you to move "as if it were the Movement Phase". In the Movement Phase, you can fly over units.

Hmm. That’s definitely giving me pause for thought. Nothing about it in the FAQ. Has there been a designer’s note on this? Or has ‘specific overrules general’ been formally flowcharted in a way that answers this?

 Nym wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Screening units can't be flown over with Warptime anymore.

Care to explain ? Warptime allows you to move "as if it were the Movement Phase". In the Movement Phase, you can fly over units.

This came up at a tournament for me recently, TO said you couldn't do it but most players just shook on it and said they could, your right "as if it were the Movement Phase" is pretty cut & dry for me, same for for the soulburst guys.

Can't believe how much trouble warptime and other similar powers have caused this edition, still don't know for sure wether i can warptime after dark matter crystal or tide of traitors!

So even with the price cuts, marines are still basically useless. I spotted an ultramarines player something like 500 points in his Guilliman list, went 2nd, and the game was still over turn 3.

This is relevant because their marines are better, mostly, and in many cases cheaper than ours. How are chaos space marines - like, the actual marines - ever supposed to compete? I know we still have zerkers and obliterators but that is not enough.

Nature's Minister wrote:
So even with the price cuts, marines are still basically useless. I spotted an ultramarines player something like 500 points in his Guilliman list, went 2nd, and the game was still over turn 3.

This is relevant because their marines are better, mostly, and in many cases cheaper than ours. How are chaos space marines - like, the actual marines - ever supposed to compete? I know we still have zerkers and obliterators but that is not enough.

Hmmm, I dunno. I am starting to think cost of a base marine isn't really the problem. I mean, you can take minimum squads, or just cultists if its about costs. Not as if people run tons of base marines anyway. If cost is the key issue, look at sisters of battle. Their basic sister model is just 9 points a model, and its in power armor. But from their thread it looks like tons of sisters players are unhappy with their beta codex. If 9 point models in power armor can't make them a top tier armor, then I don't think making our marines cheaper is going to make that big a difference.