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First Among Gators wrote: 40k isn't a straight up fight though. At all. I had a non-math reason for the decision. I think what you describe is exactly what a tactical option is. Something that will win you games against the right lists for just a few points in the small squads. I think this conversation has probably progressed past it's expiry date however.
Your not making valid arguments your just arguing in platitudes. As I said, if you like the fists that bad why the need to justify it to everyone else in a tactics thread?
So because more people disagree than agree with me, that means I'm wrong? You shouldn't accuse others of fallacious arguments with that sort of stance. You're welcome to disagree, but you can drop this absurd narrative that I'm trying to force feed you some tactic. I didn't even expect it to get questioned, but since it has I've explained my reasoning.
The entire focus of this thread is hashing out the best ways to make the army work. Your welcome to add parameters though. So if you are dead set on making fists work on sarge that's fine, the discussion moves along those boundaries, but that's not what you are doing at all. Your trying to convince us that it has hidden tactical value we all are looking past. OK, I am open now actually provide data beyond your gut inclination.
That's not what I'm doing at all. Three times now I've clarified for you that I'm saying that my stance is that hey I feel this is a sound tactic so I'm going to go ahead and use it, not that this is a subpar tactic that I'm trying to find a use for and convince you of. At this point I'm inclined to believe you are either aware of this and refuse to acknowledge it, or aren't even reading through my posts, but either way let's drop this strawman. I too feel yours to be the less competitive, blinkered way of thinking that a lot of mid level players fall into, that if something doesn't math out slightly higher than a completely different option then it cannot possibly be competitive for the role!, but I'm not going to keep shouting you down about your opinions not being competitive and I recognise that we two people can disagree on something, so please show me the same courtesy.
Red Corsair wrote: As others have pointed out already, an autocanon is much easier to use and works VS everything that fist does and more, it also synergizes with the role of that unit better.
And as I've pointed out, the squad can also have an Autocannon (and it will).
Red Corsair wrote: you would still need to convince me why it's better then a flamer on the squad and a combi bolter on sarge which is the exact same price.
I've given my counter to this point and you ignored it, not sure how else to go forward from there. I'm not even remotely concerned if you're convinced or not, your view on the game seems a little too rigid to be flexed into this and I'm totally ok with that. We all play this game in a different way, yours is a little more rigid, mine is a little more fluid. I've received your advice loud and clear! Your logic hasn't convinced me and I disagree with your stance, but thanks for your contribution, let's move forward!
Red Corsair wrote: A power fist can be a useful item, but far less useful in the hands of unit A as would be in the hands of unit B. Case and point is the berserker champ, he gets 6 bites at the apple and +2 to his strength for that same 9pts.
Berzerkers cannot take Autocannons. Berzerkers are a glass cannon unit that want to be in CC, not sit on an objective. You would be paying so many points to hold ground on a backfield objective. A single powerfist costs 9 points, and helps push off anything that makes it into CC with you and gives you the teeth to win trades vs other min size troops in ob sec battles, or to help push off bulkier things like a vehicle or a Captain, without costing anywhere near enough to drastically change the role of the unit away from firmly holding objectives. Again, I've seen it used to great effect by the best Marine player I know, a guy who manages to travel and compete throughout every edition with Imperial Fists. I've felt it work vs me personally, smashing out Rippers quickly enough to retake the objective by a full turn just by putting a single PF in the squad. Remember you're swinging twice over a battle round before scores come through in ITC. It's often 4 attacks for simply 9 points. Again, I've said if it doesn't work I'll adjust, but as it stands I'm just going to hold it in there, so I think this particular issue of power fists is thoroughly hashed out as much as it can be now.
Once again, we can prove mathematically (which you wanted to ignore) how ignorant that statement is about pushing someone off your objective is.
And yes, everyone is disagreeing with you because you ARE wrong. Go into any Marine variant thread, and everyone will tell you that Power Fists are bad on any 2 attack model, even with melee based armies like Blood Angels and Grey Knights.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Ok I think we're done with this argument let's move on...x
Automatically Appended Next Post: We have berserkers that out class anything loyalists have. We probably have slightly stronger legion traits, except maybe ultras
Automatically Appended Next Post: Daemon princes really are special for us, it's hard not to spam them.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/12/23 16:44:05
Berserkers are tough to get in close. Rhinos aren't tough, really. Bloodletters can deep strike and you can basically guarantee the charge when they come in.
The CSM, daemon and cult princes all have different data sheets, so they are different units. I use two daemon princes of tzeentch from the thousand sons codex, and two khorne princes from the daemon codex.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/23 19:41:42
Gidun wrote: So what's the best way to deal with ork boyz? I keep struggling to remove 90-120 before they get in my face and tear it off.
Try Berserkers. If you get the charge off on 30 berzerkers into 120 boyz, I think the 30 berzerkers would clean house, especially if they are world eaters. Thats 240 attacks after attacking twice, and we are not even factoring in death to the false emperor which everyone always forgets about.
Automatically Appended Next Post: btw, you can have world eater be pretty scary in shotting now and yet, fighty too (cos they are world eaters).
Have Kharn run up the board sandwiched between two Kytan Ravagers. And have a third Kytan Ravager by itself whom you spam daemonforge on every turn.
So, thats 24 str 8 shots with reroll to hit every turn on three super heavies which are hard to kill. And when they hit the enemy lines, 3 Kytan ravegers and Kharn are going to pack a heck of a wallop. lol.
Fill up the rest with zerkers in Rhinos. Or throw in more defilers if you want to go for armour overkill.
I am just sad they lowered the points of Kytan but not Lord of skulls.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/25 04:34:41
Gidun wrote: So what's the best way to deal with ork boyz? I keep struggling to remove 90-120 before they get in my face and tear it off.
Once again, it'll be Chosen with all Combi-Bolters, a Flamer, and all Chainswords.
There's also the FW Tarantula Guns with Heavy Bolters, and the Scorpius (but that's still better vs Elites because of the D2).
Am I understanding you correctly by reading it as 5 combi flamers on 5 of the marines (including the champ) an a sixth marine with a regular flamer?
If so, what's the benefit of going for a sixth marine instead of going for a second squad and cramming them into a rhino?
And aren't you going to have a hard time making the charge with the majority of the wounds being caused in shooting phase? I imagine it's hard to line up both the charge and the shot with flamers being 8".
Spoiler:
Eldenfirefly wrote:Try Berserkers. If you get the charge off on 30 berzerkers into 120 boyz, I think the 30 berzerkers would clean house, especially if they are world eaters. Thats 240 attacks after attacking twice, and we are not even factoring in death to the false emperor which everyone always forgets about.
I'm leaning towards zerkers since it seems they have a slightly higher wound per point than chosen with combi flamers (and most of their attacks are gonna be - 1AP (for whatever that is worth with orkz invuls and fnp) and done in the same phase, so no screwing yourself over (unless I get counter-attacked).
What's the most efficient way of running them? A pair of five-man squads, with a flag and lightning claws for the champs, that rides in a rhino? The pros being that it's two different charges and 6 more LC attacks and the cons being that it's 18 points more expensive than a 10-man squad with the same loadout.
Or footslogging a 5/10/20 man unit?
Personally I'm leaning towards a rhino with two squads that gets supported by either a jump pack lord or a daemon prince.
To sum it up: what's easier to line up to kill a >50% squad of boyz. Chosen or zerkers?
That many ork boys there are a few good ways to handle them. Choosen as mentioned are one (and a good one at that). Cultists with mark of slaanesh can do a number as well as long as they are in a big squad, like 40. Berserkers can wreck face. Flamers of tzeentch can be super useful at weakening a squad up as well. The real question is what do you have at your disposal and what have you been fielding vs the green tide?
Gidun wrote: So what's the best way to deal with ork boyz? I keep struggling to remove 90-120 before they get in my face and tear it off.
Once again, it'll be Chosen with all Combi-Bolters, a Flamer, and all Chainswords.
There's also the FW Tarantula Guns with Heavy Bolters, and the Scorpius (but that's still better vs Elites because of the D2).
Am I understanding you correctly by reading it as 5 combi flamers on 5 of the marines (including the champ) an a sixth marine with a regular flamer?
If so, what's the benefit of going for a sixth marine instead of going for a second squad and cramming them into a rhino?
And aren't you going to have a hard time making the charge with the majority of the wounds being caused in shooting phase? I imagine it's hard to line up both the charge and the shot with flamers being 8".
Spoiler:
Eldenfirefly wrote:Try Berserkers. If you get the charge off on 30 berzerkers into 120 boyz, I think the 30 berzerkers would clean house, especially if they are world eaters. Thats 240 attacks after attacking twice, and we are not even factoring in death to the false emperor which everyone always forgets about.
I'm leaning towards zerkers since it seems they have a slightly higher wound per point than chosen with combi flamers (and most of their attacks are gonna be - 1AP (for whatever that is worth with orkz invuls and fnp) and done in the same phase, so no screwing yourself over (unless I get counter-attacked).
What's the most efficient way of running them? A pair of five-man squads, with a flag and lightning claws for the champs, that rides in a rhino? The pros being that it's two different charges and 6 more LC attacks and the cons being that it's 18 points more expensive than a 10-man squad with the same loadout.
Or footslogging a 5/10/20 man unit?
Personally I'm leaning towards a rhino with two squads that gets supported by either a jump pack lord or a daemon prince.
To sum it up: what's easier to line up to kill a >50% squad of boyz. Chosen or zerkers?
I was talking about a 6 man squad with 5 Combi-Bolters and 1 Flamer. That's about the best you'll get for the price.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Azuza001 wrote: That many ork boys there are a few good ways to handle them. Choosen as mentioned are one (and a good one at that). Cultists with mark of slaanesh can do a number as well as long as they are in a big squad, like 40. Berserkers can wreck face. Flamers of tzeentch can be super useful at weakening a squad up as well. The real question is what do you have at your disposal and what have you been fielding vs the green tide?
My best options that I have from what I can gather is good choices are zerkers, chosen, cultists and bloodletters (which with I've only managed one proper deepstrike with banner of blood before the ork player in question got savvy and started screening).
My biggest issue is matching him point per point. It just feels like he's got an answer to anything I can throw at him without him having to really having to commit to one idea.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I was talking about a 6 man squad with 5 Combi-Bolters and 1 FN lamer. That's about the best you'll get for the price.
Just mathed it, the wound per point goes up if you ignore that one flamer and just straight up go for 5 combi bolters. But the remaining issue is that it's still 6.6 wounds per 104 points (and that's rapid fire range and before saves). That means I would have to commit over 700 points of the supposedly best boy killer to reliably get through 29 boyz and a nob with saves and fnp per turn.
Hence why I lean towards zerkers that can at least remove their t-shirt save for the most part.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/25 11:38:09
They have the threat range advantage over Boyz by a long shot (har har), and their 2 attacks base mean they can at least do something when they receive a charge. They also give you a good target for Cacophony and Agonies, and Blastmasters can be put to use either popping their vehicles or clearing the green tide, depending on what you need. Cover denial is probably situational, given the difficulty your opponent will have finding cover for a 30man blob.
In an EC detachment they'll even fight first, or at the very least, alternate between his multiple charging units and your receivers.
Azuza001 wrote: That many ork boys there are a few good ways to handle them. Choosen as mentioned are one (and a good one at that). Cultists with mark of slaanesh can do a number as well as long as they are in a big squad, like 40. Berserkers can wreck face. Flamers of tzeentch can be super useful at weakening a squad up as well. The real question is what do you have at your disposal and what have you been fielding vs the green tide?
My best options that I have from what I can gather is good choices are zerkers, chosen, cultists and bloodletters (which with I've only managed one proper deepstrike with banner of blood before the ork player in question got savvy and started screening).
My biggest issue is matching him point per point. It just feels like he's got an answer to anything I can throw at him without him having to really having to commit to one idea.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I was talking about a 6 man squad with 5 Combi-Bolters and 1 FN lamer. That's about the best you'll get for the price.
Just mathed it, the wound per point goes up if you ignore that one flamer and just straight up go for 5 combi bolters. But the remaining issue is that it's still 6.6 wounds per 104 points (and that's rapid fire range and before saves). That means I would have to commit over 700 points of the supposedly best boy killer to reliably get through 29 boyz and a nob with saves and fnp per turn.
Hence why I lean towards zerkers that can at least remove their t-shirt save for the most part.
Those 6.6 wounds are on 7 point models. That's more than 45 points, which is decent for models that would be 16 points each. Then the Chosen have three attacks each, with the Champ having 4 (or just three if you buy a Power Weapon, which isn't necessary).
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
They have the threat range advantage over Boyz by a long shot (har har), and their 2 attacks base mean they can at least do something when they receive a charge. They also give you a good target for Cacophony and Agonies, and Blastmasters can be put to use either popping their vehicles or clearing the green tide, depending on what you need. Cover denial is probably situational, given the difficulty your opponent will have finding cover for a 30man blob.
In an EC detachment they'll even fight first, or at the very least, alternate between his multiple charging units and your receivers.
Expensive on the points front, though.
Yeah they seem to math out about equally to chosen, with the added benefit of ignoring cover, getting to shoot when they are slain and a larger efficient threat range.
But it's still over 600pts in order to reliably kill off a 30 man boy squad. Compared to WE zerkers which lands on about 200pts for the same job. (Discounting potential transport)
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Those 6.6 wounds are on 7 point models. That's more than 45 points, which is decent for models that would be 16 points each. Then the Chosen have three attacks each, with the Champ having 4 (or just three if you buy a Power Weapon, which isn't necessary).
That's still 7 rounds of shooting after saves to remove a 210pts unit and if you actually do charge in to the 23+ orks still left you're gonna have a bad time. And guess what's coming <50% unit strength?
What I'm really after is a way to quickly remove them from play, and especially to avoid letting them live <50%.
How would you suggest playing with the chosen? Stay in 8" for rapid fire and flamer or trying to pop them from 24" with 10 shots a round? And if wittling them down is the goal, why not use noise marines instead?
Edit: just re-read what I wrote, it sounds a bit snarky which isn't my intention so I apologize for that
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/12/25 12:22:41
The short answer is that there is no efficient way to deal with them in the CSM codex alone. I can't even think of any forgeworld options that might come close. VotLW/Prescience/Cacophony Cultists are one of the most efficient unit/CP/power combinations in the codex, so if they can't do it, nothing will.
You can either ally in Daemons for Plaguebearers (attrition) or Letters (alpha strike), or look at TSons for Tzaangors (less alpha strikey than Letters, but more survivable with psychic backup, and easier on the CP).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/25 12:21:59
Pink Horrors are also an option. A horde of them and a herald, a Bloodletter bomb and a herald, and some brimstones or Nurglings to fill out the Battalion, can do some work.
Ap0k wrote: The short answer is that there is no efficient way to deal with them in the CSM codex alone. I can't even think of any forgeworld options that might come close. VotLW/Prescience/Cacophony Cultists are one of the most efficient unit/CP/power combinations in the codex, so if they can't do it, nothing will.
You can either ally in Daemons for Plaguebearers (attrition) or Letters (alpha strike), or look at TSons for Tzaangors (less alpha strikey than Letters, but more survivable with psychic backup, and easier on the CP).
That's the unfortunate truth I was hoping to learn that it wasn't the case. I guess it's up between zerkers and cultists after all.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
lindsay40k wrote: Pink Horrors are also an option. A horde of them and a herald, a Bloodletter bomb and a herald, and some brimstones or Nurglings to fill out the Battalion, can do some work.
I think I've glossed over pink horrors entirely, what do they bring to the table?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/25 12:29:41
You could look at a Quad Heavy Bolter/Missile Fire Raptor maybe?
Won't be points efficient from a damage dealt perspective, but they can't easily chop it to death, and it should still kill a swathe of them each turn.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/12/25 12:53:23
30 horrors is 90 18" shots for 210 points. Strength 5 with Herald, and if you toss in a daemonspark tzeentch daemon prince, you reroll ones to hit and wound. Throw in some flamers of tzeentch.
Here, do this:
Spoiler:
Tzeentch batt
Daemon Prince
Herald
25 horrors
25 horrors
10 brim
Khorne batt
Daemon Prince, skullreaver
Herald
30 bloodletters
10 bloodletters
10 bloodletters
Renegade knight dominus valiant
You even have points left over for another daemon prince or more letters or whatever you want. You could also swap out the dominus for a styrix and save a further 100 points or so. The twin rad cleanser isn't as good as the big flamer but it is still really good, and it has the volkite to pop transports.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/12/25 14:09:10
Nature's Minister wrote: 30 horrors is 90 18" shots for 210 points. Strength 5 with Herald, and if you toss in a daemonspark tzeentch daemon prince, you reroll ones to hit and wound. Throw in some flamers of tzeentch.
Here, do this:
[spoiler]
Tzeentch batt
Daemon Prince
Herald
25 horrors
25 horrors
10 brim
Khorne batt
Daemon Prince, skullreaver
Herald
30 bloodletters
10 bloodletters
10 bloodletters
Renegade knight dominus valiant
You even have points left over for another daemon prince or more letters or whatever you want.
Thanks I'll check it out. Is there any cheap way to get horrors in a box or is troop boxes the way to go?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/25 15:04:41
I've been pretty happy with my Quad H-Bolter Rapier battery for clearing hordes.
36 str5 -1ap shots, and then throw in a foot Lord and Prescience for optimal accuracy. They're also have great range (Still 48" for some reason!) and are easy to screen with other units, increasing the chances of followup shots.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/25 15:02:56
The problem with the Berzerker scenario is that if you charge a blob of Boyz with multiple units, your first unit swings once, and then the Ork player drops 2 CP to interrupt combat and smash a bunch of Zerkers from a unit that hasn't swung yet. This is why I quit using Zerkers, because of the interrupt and the fact that they are sitting ducks if they kill their charge target, unless you are better than me at performing "wrap tricks" (which don't work against Ork Boyz anyway as they want to be in CC with you).
My armies (re-counted and updated on 11/1/23, including modeled wargear options):
Dark Angels: ~15000 Astra Militarum: ~1200 | Adeptus Custodes: ~1900 | Imperial Knights: ~2000 | Sisters of Battle: ~3500 | Leagues of Votann: ~1200 | Tyranids: ~2600 | Stormcast Eternals: ~5000
Check out my P&M Blogs: ZergSmasher's P&M Blog | Imperial Knights blog | Board Games blog | Total models painted in 2023: 40 | Total models painted in 2024: 12 | Current main painting project: Dark Angels
Mr_Rose wrote: Who doesn’t love crazy mutant squawk-puppies? Eh? Nobody, that’s who.
ZergSmasher wrote: The problem with the Berzerker scenario is that if you charge a blob of Boyz with multiple units, your first unit swings once, and then the Ork player drops 2 CP to interrupt combat and smash a bunch of Zerkers from a unit that hasn't swung yet. This is why I quit using Zerkers, because of the interrupt and the fact that they are sitting ducks if they kill their charge target, unless you are better than me at performing "wrap tricks" (which don't work against Ork Boyz anyway as they want to be in CC with you).
Yeah that can be pretty rough, but the more different units that I can engage with several squads, the more I can mitigate the effectiveness of a counterattack.
I've checked out the Quad heavy bolter as per Ap0ks and McGibs' suggestions and the horrors route as per lindsay40ks and Nature's Ministers suggestion and I must say that both seem very compelling. With a slight edge towards the QHB due to it fitting into a csm detatchment and being far less to paint.
Thanks everyone for the input so far, it has opened up my eyes to some new options that I hadn't considered.
The knight valiant is also really effective anti horde. 3d6 autohits hurt in overwatch, 12 attacks with titanic feet, can fall back and shoot, is pretty survivable. And only one model.
Nature's Minister wrote: The knight valiant is also really effective anti horde. 3d6 autohits hurt in overwatch, 12 attacks with titanic feet, can fall back and shoot, is pretty survivable. And only one model.
I tried looking for it but with no luck, is it the same kit as the imperial version?
~15000 Astra Militarum: 
~1200 | Adeptus Custodes: 
~1900 | Imperial Knights: 
~2000 | Sisters of Battle: 
~3500 | Leagues of Votann: 
