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Funny how I add the modeling perspective on as the final nail for me personally after already addressing that I don't think it's the right answer to greentide *cough* quad heavy bolters *cough* but some people focus on that rather then the cake of the argument.

I'll cover my take on modelling once and for all since it's been twisted by First Among Gators more then once and I want it to be clear.

If you like or dislike a model then that is a fine justification for it's inclusion but you should state that. The entire game is based on collecting and painting your own models, or course you should use or not use based on taste. What he did before was try to convince the thread that an inefficient load out was worth taking because he had a "gut feeling" it would be useful. I even told him if it was a modeling thing to just say it and folks would ignore it, that's not the route he chose though. Instead he tried convincing folks it was a sound tactic and wouldn't back it up with any maths or experience. I actually enjoy trying to make cool looking and under used things work, but I will never argue that it's a good competitive option and then never cite evidence.

As I said already in regard to combi bolter chosen, they are like 6th or 7th down a list of options I know are more efficient to handle horde. My go to are quad HB rapiers, after that I'd rather take in no particular order Noise marines, oblits, cultists, khorne berserkers, spawn and/or tie the units down with my defilers or maulers or a termite.

The combi chosen are neat in theory but they need to be in rapid fire and charge distance to perform best, and at 17ppm I'd always rather take K berserkers if I already figured out how to get in combat safely.

Heres the math on wounds delt to orks per point btw.

Quad HB rapier (76) is 14.1 point per wound delt verse ork tide all the way out to 48".

5 Combi bolter chosen (85) is 15.1 point per wound verse green tide at 12"

Now that still seems close and I would never fault someone for wanting to take them however the HB rapiers also come with a pair of CSM I didn't bother with due to range bands but it does give the platform more wounds and you also need to consider that massive range advantage. It just ends up making it an easy choice. I have had at least a pair of these in every competitive chaos list for over a year now. They are great verse any target and due to the wording on the crew they make perfect backfield objective sitters.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Objective Secured is a non-rule for any Elite army. You're already taking Cultists, which means you get a higher performance unit for only 3 point more than the other Troop choice.

I say 3 points as, at minimum, you're taking the Combi-Bolter.

Also you don't need a WHOLE squad of Combi-Bolters. That's a silly complaint. They're strictly a MSU kinda unit and always have been. I don't complain about Obliterators being only in squads of three.

Correct me if I am wrong but I thought combi bolters were 2ppm, which makes combi chosen 17ppm.

 Red Corsair wrote:


If you like or dislike a model then that is a fine justification for it's inclusion but you should state that. The entire game is based on collecting and painting your own models, or course you should use or not use based on taste. What he did before was try to convince the thread that an inefficient load out was worth taking because he had a "gut feeling" it would be useful. I even told him if it was a modeling thing to just say it and folks would ignore it, that's not the route he chose though. Instead he tried convincing folks it was a sound tactic and wouldn't back it up with any maths or experience. I actually enjoy trying to make cool looking and under used things work, but I will never argue that it's a good competitive option and then never cite evidence.

How are you still stuck on this? Why are you still trying to argue about Power Fists being a good or bad choice? we get it, you don't think they are, but no matter how you feel about it, I gave a bunch of reasoning for why I wanted to take them and literally none of it was model related - I don't even like the model, I personally think the giant foam hands are one of the silliest aesthetics 40k has. I posted a list looking for advice, some advice I received I said yep, that sounds good I'm going to do it your way, others I decided nah, I don't agree with that so I'm going to stick with it. At no point did I try to convince you of anything, I simply defended my own decision and said you're free to do as you please, in fact I even said we probably have different playstyles so it might not be right for you, but it is for me. How do you lack the self awareness here to see that you're the one went out of your way to convince me of something, and have not dealt at all well with the fact that I didn't bow down to you trying to shout me down with logic I wasn't convinced by, and have gone out of your way to completely twist my argument. When did I say anything about gut feelings or an attachment to the model? You are just spouting out whatever sounds best

Nobody misrepresented your statement, multiple people responded to exactly what your post said about not building models due to fear of change, I was not even close to the only or first person to read it that way or at all responsible for anything to do with how your post was responded to there. Drop the paranoid delusions please. It was only after that statement that you went back and clarified what you intended to say, and without it your post was (and still kinda is) beyond hypocritical for someone who throws around accusations of "non-competitiveness" and "modelling related choice" as quickly as you do, simply because someone has a differing opinion to you.

 Red Corsair wrote:
Funny how I add the modeling perspective on as the final nail for me personally after already addressing that I don't think it's the right answer to greentide *cough* quad heavy bolters *cough* but some people focus on that rather then the cake of the argument.

I'll cover my take on modelling once and for all since it's been twisted by First Among Gators more then once and I want it to be clear.

If you like or dislike a model then that is a fine justification for it's inclusion but you should state that. The entire game is based on collecting and painting your own models, or course you should use or not use based on taste. What he did before was try to convince the thread that an inefficient load out was worth taking because he had a "gut feeling" it would be useful. I even told him if it was a modeling thing to just say it and folks would ignore it, that's not the route he chose though. Instead he tried convincing folks it was a sound tactic and wouldn't back it up with any maths or experience. I actually enjoy trying to make cool looking and under used things work, but I will never argue that it's a good competitive option and then never cite evidence.

As I said already in regard to combi bolter chosen, they are like 6th or 7th down a list of options I know are more efficient to handle horde. My go to are quad HB rapiers, after that I'd rather take in no particular order Noise marines, oblits, cultists, khorne berserkers, spawn and/or tie the units down with my defilers or maulers or a termite.

The combi chosen are neat in theory but they need to be in rapid fire and charge distance to perform best, and at 17ppm I'd always rather take K berserkers if I already figured out how to get in combat safely.

Heres the math on wounds delt to orks per point btw.

Quad HB rapier (76) is 14.1 point per wound delt verse ork tide all the way out to 48".

5 Combi bolter chosen (85) is 15.1 point per wound verse green tide at 12"

Now that still seems close and I would never fault someone for wanting to take them however the HB rapiers also come with a pair of CSM I didn't bother with due to range bands but it does give the platform more wounds and you also need to consider that massive range advantage. It just ends up making it an easy choice. I have had at least a pair of these in every competitive chaos list for over a year now. They are great verse any target and due to the wording on the crew they make perfect backfield objective sitters.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Objective Secured is a non-rule for any Elite army. You're already taking Cultists, which means you get a higher performance unit for only 3 point more than the other Troop choice.

I say 3 points as, at minimum, you're taking the Combi-Bolter.

Also you don't need a WHOLE squad of Combi-Bolters. That's a silly complaint. They're strictly a MSU kinda unit and always have been. I don't complain about Obliterators being only in squads of three.

Correct me if I am wrong but I thought combi bolters were 2ppm, which makes combi chosen 17ppm.

Chosen are 14 points now I'm pretty sure.

yeah 16 ppm for combi bolter chosen, he may have been factoring in a chain axe though which would make them 17, I dunno. I agree that they are quite good dakka math wise, though their melee is definitely what gives them any sort of edge on alternatives, I think they should at least have chainaxes, possibly more.

Yep, 14 pts plus 2 for the combi bolter makes 16 pts vs 13 pts for chaos marines, so 3 pt difference.

 First Among Gators wrote:
yeah 16 ppm for combi bolter chosen, he may have been factoring in a chain axe though which would make them 17, I dunno. I agree that they are quite good dakka math wise, though their melee is definitely what gives them any sort of edge on alternatives, I think they should at least have chainaxes, possibly more.

For a unit like Berserker Marines where everyone attacks twice, sure the Chainaxe is worth it. For a two attack model? I'm iffy as, while it IS only one point, weight of attacks does help a bunch vs anything T3 (which would be the optimized target anyway). Against Infantry, Chainswords are almost one dead Guardsman each for each Chosen, whereas Chainaxes kill only .75.

It would depend mathematically how the Chainaxe handles other targets I guess, but since I'm at work I can't find out now.

Okay, so I played a 1750 point game EC VS Imperial guard (5 leman Russ tanks and guardsman spam.)

I brought a winged DP, sorcerer, and 3 min-size squads of Noise Marines (fully kitted out), 3 Sonic Dreadnoughts (ML, blastmasters, doom sirens. One had a power scourge).

And I also brought a separate EC spearhead detachment with a warpsmith, defiler, 2 forgefiends and a heldrake.

I tied up a tank with my heldrake turn 1 and then 2 tanks the next turn. I deleted 30 guardsmen with my fire frenzy helbrutes and blastmasters on my first turn and got a leman Russ down to 1 wound with my daemonforged Forgefiend and friends. My opponent failed to kill anything his first turn and it went downhill from there. I didn't even use VoTLW or Endless Cocaphony and still gave him a sound thrashing.

The point drops are very welcome!

NoiseyBoyo wrote: I deleted 30 guardsmen with my fire frenzy helbrutes and blastmasters on my first turn

Make sure you are only playing a strategem once per phase. In any shooting phase you can only use the fire frenzy strategem once. So at most, a single helbrute can use fire frenzy. Same with the daemonengines and daemon forged. It sounds like from your description you were using fire frenzy with all of your brutes. which would be illegal.

Also it sounds like you played your Helturkey wrong. The Flying rule gives him permission to shoot after falling back, but it does not give him permission to charge a new target after falling back. So unless he charged your Heldrake with a second Russ, you would not be able to leave combat and recharge to tie up two models. Unless your Heldrake killed the Leman Russ on your opponents turn and was able to charge something else, but with his less than stellar accuracy and low damage on his claws I doubt he could do enough damage.

i always like to hear about EC doing well. But make sure you played the rules right!

The ig player could have backed out with the first russ fighting the hellturkey, i know i would have done that if my russ was fighting a helldrake, thats a no win fight, better to try and do dmg on overwatch than 3 attacks hitting on 6's.

Slaanesh is really coming into its own at this point, i love it.

hmmm, I was planning to run triple hellbrutes. Two shooty and one with a mixed load out, reaper autocannon and a hellbrute fist. Just to give this firebase some melee deffense. Then I realised that a doublefist hellbrute is just 100 points now...

Is 100 points cheap enough to have a double fist hellbrute charging forward? A world eaters hellbrute double fist will do 6 attacks with each attack dealing 3 damage! Its rather tasty!

I am suddenly wondering about the effectiveness of a monster mash army of daemon engines and hellbrutes charging down my opponent's front lines... hehe.

Juat to add to this. For 4 more points, such a hellbrute can add on two more combi bolters 8 shots of str 4 at 12 inches. Its not bad for chaff clearing for just 4 points too.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
hmmm, I was planning to run triple hellbrutes. Two shooty and one with a mixed load out, reaper autocannon and a hellbrute fist. Just to give this firebase some melee deffense. Then I realised that a doublefist hellbrute is just 100 points now...

Is 100 points cheap enough to have a double fist hellbrute charging forward? A world eaters hellbrute double fist will do 6 attacks with each attack dealing 3 damage! Its rather tasty!

I am suddenly wondering about the effectiveness of a monster mash army of daemon engines and hellbrutes charging down my opponent's front lines... hehe.

Juat to add to this. For 4 more points, such a hellbrute can add on two more combi bolters 8 shots of str 4 at 12 inches. Its not bad for chaff clearing for just 4 points too.

I was thinking the same thing except with AL for the -1 to be hit. With combi-bolters and fire frenzy to clear chaff you might get into something juicy with the 5 damage 3 attacks. Ive been toying running one as slannash for the fnp spell and one nurgle for the miasma spell

I was just toying with a list, we have a restriction of no more than two of the same data sheet so this looks odd but bare with me.


Alpha legion
Sorcerer on steed of slaanesh, warptime, death hex
Warpsmith (cheapest character we have)

3x 10 cultists

Hellbrute x 2 fist
Hellbrute x 2 fist
Ferrum infernum dread x2 fist
Ferrum infernum dread x2 fist
Hellforged contemptor x2 fist
Hellforged contemptor x2 fist.

1001pts

I’m deciding between chaos or dark angels at a doubles tourney, TO has said that up to 5pts over is ok.... which is odd as why not make it 1005pts but nevermind eh

Helbrutes just don't have enough speed to me, even if you're doing the Renegades route. I wouldn't even use Black Templars Dreads for melee, and they naturally reroll charges!

Only looking at shooting when comparing QHB and Chosen is stupid. QHB are a stationary long range fire support unit while Chosen are a mobile medium/close range unit.

QHB v Chosen (rapid fire) shooting is almost identical. QHB = 14.25 points / wound while Chosen = 14.4 points / wound. HOWEVER - Chosen also have 3 close combat attacks when taken with chainswords (which are better than chainaxes due to their versatility). If you assume that your Chosen can rapid fire and then charge and get off their attacks, they are looking at 6.17 points / wound (killing 12.9629 Ork Boyz).

There are many more things you need to factor into the analysis too. Factors such as QHB being FW, Heavy v Elite slots, range of respective weapons, how to get your Chosen within 12", legion traits (hello -1 to hit), psychic buffs and stratagems (VotLW / EC only working for Chosen for example).

Finally, there is no reason why someone couldn't take both. If you're getting 120 Ork Boyz dropped on you then it makes good sense to have both long range and close range units to help deal with the threat.

Pre-CA I had used a 10 man unit of Chosen w chainswords and 5 combi-bolters to good effect and with the price drop they'll be even better now.

saint_red wrote:
Only looking at shooting when comparing QHB and Chosen is stupid. QHB are a stationary long range fire support unit while Chosen are a mobile medium/close range unit.

QHB v Chosen (rapid fire) shooting is almost identical. QHB = 14.25 points / wound while Chosen = 14.4 points / wound. HOWEVER - Chosen also have 3 close combat attacks when taken with chainswords (which are better than chainaxes due to their versatility). If you assume that your Chosen can rapid fire and then charge and get off their attacks, they are looking at 6.17 points / wound (killing 12.9629 Ork Boyz).

There are many more things you need to factor into the analysis too. Factors such as QHB being FW, Heavy v Elite slots, range of respective weapons, how to get your Chosen within 12", legion traits (hello -1 to hit), psychic buffs and stratagems (VotLW / EC only working for Chosen for example).

Finally, there is no reason why someone couldn't take both. If you're getting 120 Ork Boyz dropped on you then it makes good sense to have both long range and close range units to help deal with the threat.

Pre-CA I had used a 10 man unit of Chosen w chainswords and 5 combi-bolters to good effect and with the price drop they'll be even better now.

thank you, that's a great post.

Am I missing something, or does an Emperor's Children dreadnought with missile launcher and 2xBlastmasters only cost 124 points?

You're absolutely not wrong about this. After boyz saves (assuming invul and fnp) It's something to the effect of 20 points/unsaved wound versus 18 points/unsaved wounds for chosen (including a rhino).

However, my point of view in this case is that if you're actually going to use chosen to their fullest in killing boyz and both charge and shoot then you might aswell stuff that rhino with zerkers (LC on champ), which comes up to something like 23 points/unsaved wounds with only their first turn of fighting. Depending on whetever you get counterattacked etc you're going to bring that ppw down to 11,5. Which is a huge improvement over chosen. And considering that they roughly occupy the same dangerzones when playing then that's my prefered choice between mid/close range.

The difference skews to the QHBs when you're shooting at boyz without invuls.

To sum my thoughts up. You absolutely can use chosen as a shock troop, but I'd rather use them as specialists hunting something else.

Bit of a topic pivot-- but how do people feel about allies and fire support for melee core?

I'm considering a Macharius Vulcan (R&H) to ally with my World Eaters. (60" 30, S6 -2 D2).

Or Alpha Legion Leviathans (2 or 3?).

On the flip side also curious about mixing in bloodletters, or even skarbrand from a daemons standpoint. Any experiences?

Despite the amount of shots it puts out, the Vulcan isn't as point efficient as Leviathans/Deredeos with Butcher Arrays from a damage perspective.

 Ap0k wrote:
Despite the amount of shots it puts out, the Vulcan isn't as point efficient as Leviathans/Deredeos with Butcher Arrays from a damage perspective.

Levis and Deredeos pump out a stupid amount of damage, especially when there are multiple.

A deamon patrol detachment of 30 bloodletters with a herald is a great investment and is THE shock troop choice. It is cp heavy (2cp to deepstrike the bloodletters, 1 to upgrade their standard for 3d6 charge, and 1 to deepstrike the herald) but it will delete anything you want dead. I normally focus on using my chaos marine force to kill the bubblewrap so the deamons can wreck face.

Hi, thanks for your input. I could have worded that better, I only used daemonforge and fire frenzy once each. He fell back with his leman Russ so I was able to charge my heldrake next turn, he had expected to destroy it but it survived on 5 wounds. I was able to pile in/consolidate into the second Russ.

As an added note I was able to warptime the defiler up to his gun line, unfortunately it got tarpitted by 20 guardsmen (only killed 2 in the fight phase, despite bringing a power scourge.) but at least he was safe from the battle cannons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Am I missing something, or does an Emperor's Children dreadnought with missile launcher and 2xBlastmasters only cost 124 points?

By my count 60+20+40=120?(doom siren optional 8pts.)

So actually a bit cheaper. They are possibly the best target for fire frenzy. A bit of a boast, but I managed 22 shots on 4d6 for the blastmaster shots, I had to remind him I used fire frenzy because he thought I was cheating.

I am trying to find a list for the new and improved 6 point daemonettes, but everything seems kind of blah with no strategy beyond throwing bodies at a line

Nature's Minister wrote:
I am trying to find a list for the new and improved 6 point daemonettes, but everything seems kind of blah with no strategy beyond throwing bodies at a line

"quantity has a quality all of it's own"

Controlling the board is a strategy.

Quick show of hands - Cultists being seemingly priced for a horde of 40 with VotLW & EC (& maybe Prescience), how’s this affecting y’all who’ve previously been playing lists that don’t have a Cultist horde but do take Cultists? Options seem to be:

- grudgingly pay AM Veteran pts and claw it back from efficiently priced other stuff
- replace some with CSM units
- take Daemon Battalion instead
- reduce use of CP

I just went from taking 4-5 min units of cultists to taking 3 min units of cultists and filling the rest of the list with walkers and cult marines.

I was already taking 40 cultists and deamon battalions so the changes didnt effect me. I am actually working on getting another 40 cultists and filling it out with my 20 chaos marines for a large black legion batallion, a deamon batallion, and a deamon patrol (though i am starting to wonder if the reroll charge is needed for the khorne patrol). 15 cp (2 batallions and abaddon) is more than enough to do whatever i want.

anyone know where i can find the rules for the sonic dreadnought, cant seem to find them

 lindsay40k wrote:
Quick show of hands - Cultists being seemingly priced for a horde of 40 with VotLW & EC (& maybe Prescience), how’s this affecting y’all who’ve previously been playing lists that don’t have a Cultist horde but do take Cultists? Options seem to be:

I'm trying to move my army over to a baseline Battalion of daemons (the end goal being to have one for each god, but we'll see how that goes). Currently looking at Nurgle using 1 Plaguebearers unit and 2 Nurgling units. Then My Word Bearers all slot in to a Spearhead/Vanguard as appropriate. Have yet to try it out though, but I feel as if the Plaguebearers will give me a bit more staying power, the small units of Nurglings are good for camping on objectives and screening, and I still get the firepower from Havocs/Helbrutes.

 lindsay40k wrote:
Quick show of hands - Cultists being seemingly priced for a horde of 40 with VotLW & EC (& maybe Prescience), how’s this affecting y’all who’ve previously been playing lists that don’t have a Cultist horde but do take Cultists? Options seem to be:

- grudgingly pay AM Veteran pts and claw it back from efficiently priced other stuff
- replace some with CSM units
- take Daemon Battalion instead
- reduce use of CP

My list has the minimum 3x10 cultists so it went up 30 points there. Then I got 40 points back on butcher cannon arrays and 26 points back on a pair of changecasters.