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Can the cultist problem not just be solved by taking a detachment of traitor guard ?

I know they suck and you don’t get all the chaos traits etc. But they are still a very cheap way to get bodies for those CP

Personally, now that cultists are 50 points a squad, I think its a lot closer to CSM. A base CSM squad is only 65 points and you can take a heavy weapon like a lascannon, missile launcher or a autocannon.

And I feel that 5 CSM are more resilient than 10 cultists (if we are going for minimum squads because of cost). Mass cultists only become much better than CSM if we are taking a squad of 40 cultists and planning to use strategems and stuff on them.

If cost is an issue and we are just taking the minimum to make up for troop choices, I personally think the higher durability of a squad of CSM for 15 points more is worth it. Just one or two mortar shots on a squad of cultists is probably enough to kill it off (with morale), while the same squad of CSM would laugh at a mortar shot. Especially if they are in cover.

So, for cultists, either you build an army around exploiting the power of a squad of 40 cultists, if not, then I think a min squad of CSM is probably just a bit better than squad of 10 cultists. So erm yeah, for cultists, either go big (40 man) or just don't bother.

 Formosa wrote:
Can the cultist problem not just be solved by taking a detachment of traitor guard ?

I know they suck and you don’t get all the chaos traits etc. But they are still a very cheap way to get bodies for those CP

Yes and no.

They might be cheap but are not cheap enough for their stats.

F.e. Militia or mutants are 4 ppm, but worse in SV, ws and bs , compared to guardsmen.

And this is the crux, yes you can technically swamp the field with renegade guard, but they are not worth it.

The only thing you could do is run 1-2 battalions and get cp.
Point is, can you get enough use out of said cp to compensate for the terrible quality?

 Formosa wrote:
anyone know where i can find the rules for the sonic dreadnought, cant seem to find them

https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/imperial_armour_index_forces_of_chaos.pdf

Page 3, top paragraph on the right:
Q: There is no datasheet for an Emperor’s Children Sonic
Dreadnought – is there a datasheet I should use for this model?
A: Use the Helbrute datasheet on page 33 of Index:
Chaos. It must replace its <Mark of Chaos> keyword
with Slaanesh, it must replace its <Legion> keyword
with Emperor’s Children, and it has two additional
wargear options; it may take a doom siren, and it may
replace its multi-melta with two blastmasters.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Personally, now that cultists are 50 points a squad, I think its a lot closer to CSM. A base CSM squad is only 65 points and you can take a heavy weapon like a lascannon, missile launcher or a autocannon.

And I feel that 5 CSM are more resilient than 10 cultists (if we are going for minimum squads because of cost). Mass cultists only become much better than CSM if we are taking a squad of 40 cultists and planning to use strategems and stuff on them.

If cost is an issue and we are just taking the minimum to make up for troop choices, I personally think the higher durability of a squad of CSM for 15 points more is worth it. Just one or two mortar shots on a squad of cultists is probably enough to kill it off (with morale), while the same squad of CSM would laugh at a mortar shot. Especially if they are in cover.

So, for cultists, either you build an army around exploiting the power of a squad of 40 cultists, if not, then I think a min squad of CSM is probably just a bit better than squad of 10 cultists. So erm yeah, for cultists, either go big (40 man) or just don't bother.

The problem with CSM is that they sort of suck as screening units, which is really what cultists are for. Sure, a missilelauncher in cover will deal more damage than a 10man cultist unit, but that's not the point. The cultist unit is there to control the board, keep enemy units from getting too close to your actual workhorse units via deepstrike or positioning. They're also throwaway disposable, which is what you want for sucking up overwatch before a better unit charges, or for sacrificing to an enemy charge so that you can counter-hit them in the next turn. In 8th, an army needs these sort of screening units, and CSM just don't fill that role.

Maybe CSM do tho? Okay 5 marines don't have quite the board control of 10 cultists, but at only 15 points more, maybe they can just be considered screens or to be thrown in to soak up overwatch. Maybe we shouldn't be so protective of our marine troops.
Does anybody have any stats comparing resilience of marines with cultists depending on strength/type of weapon? Any good math hammerers?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think I'm in agreement with the earlier comment about MSU cultists. 10 cultists don't do anything. They don't even really give you much more area denial than 5 marines. I think a 200pt unit of cultists is better than 200pts of marines. But I think a 65pt unit of marines is probably less wasted points than 65pts of cultists if that makes sense?
you can start thinking about adding a heavy weapon to that unit and maybe expecting it to do something for you. Especially the new 10pt autocannons look inviting...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sorry to triple post. I'm thinking of introducing some daemons to my black legion, specifically bloodletters.
Now I believe I'm right in thinking I can run a khorne keyword detachment.
Could I make that a battalion with a large unit of khorne marked cultists a large unit of bloodletters and a MSU of khorne marked marines? Could the cultists and marines still be black legion?

Cultist change cost me 40 points in my list. Annoying but not a huge deal.

Mass cultists never really worked for me as well as I wanted.

Abaddon303 wrote:
Maybe CSM do tho? Okay 5 marines don't have quite the board control of 10 cultists, but at only 15 points more, maybe they can just be considered screens or to be thrown in to soak up overwatch. Maybe we shouldn't be so protective of our marine troops.
Does anybody have any stats comparing resilience of marines with cultists depending on strength/type of weapon? Any good math hammerers?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think I'm in agreement with the earlier comment about MSU cultists. 10 cultists don't do anything. They don't even really give you much more area denial than 5 marines. I think a 200pt unit of cultists is better than 200pts of marines. But I think a 65pt unit of marines is probably less wasted points than 65pts of cultists if that makes sense?
you can start thinking about adding a heavy weapon to that unit and maybe expecting it to do something for you. Especially the new 10pt autocannons look inviting...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sorry to triple post. I'm thinking of introducing some daemons to my black legion, specifically bloodletters.
Now I believe I'm right in thinking I can run a khorne keyword detachment.
Could I make that a battalion with a large unit of khorne marked cultists a large unit of bloodletters and a MSU of khorne marked marines? Could the cultists and marines still be black legion?

Hm, an interesting take. Maybe CSM pale so much because everyone is putting expensive weapons on them and hoping they'll pull their weight, where there's a million alternatives that do that job much better. But I just might see a case for running naked (maybe a c-bolter on the champ) minimum CSM squads with the same tactics as running minimum cultists squads. Board control, interference, and bullying other chaff units.

cheers Mcgibs, so I just use the hellbrute and throw on some sonic weapons, also it says i replace the multimelta, does that mean i can take 2 blastmasters if i have 2 multi meltas ?

Also is it still a hellbrute or is the datasheet changed to "sonic dreadnought"?

It's just a hellbrute, no keyword changes (aside from the forced Slaanesh and Emperor's Children ones).
And Hellbrutes can't take two multimeltas, as the left arm can only be melee weapons, or a missile launcher. So only two blastmasters.

It retains the helbrute keyword and datasheet. The <mark> is just automatically Slaanesh and the <legion> is automatically Emperor's Children.

edit- Beaten to the punch.

 lindsay40k wrote:
Quick show of hands - Cultists being seemingly priced for a horde of 40 with VotLW & EC (& maybe Prescience), how’s this affecting y’all who’ve previously been playing lists that don’t have a Cultist horde but do take Cultists? Options seem to be:

- grudgingly pay AM Veteran pts and claw it back from efficiently priced other stuff
- replace some with CSM units
- take Daemon Battalion instead
- reduce use of CP

All four of those options are okay(ish). Personally I like the Daemons battalion for a CP battery. 3 units of Nurglings, plus 2 Heralds (for me, usually a Poxbringer and Herald of Slaanesh for the spells) is just shy of 300 points and gives you good utility. As for Cultists, I think min units are still okay even at 50 points. Even a max blob of 40 is doable at 200, although you've got to build around them if you take more (but you already did somewhat, just more so now). Replacing min Cultists units with min CSM units is not a great idea, as you've got half the wounds and still pay more. Alpha Legion could probably do okay taking 5-man CSM units with a single Lascannon in each as nuisance units, but I'm not sure it's worth it. Reducing use of CP is difficult, as a lot of Chaos lists and strategies are CP intensive. If you aren't running large cultist blobs, at least you won't need to budget 2CP for Tide of Traitors anymore, though.

I mean, cultist lists have pretty much been dead for the last six months anyway, so they're just setting a dead horse on fire with the points changes. They weren't fun to play and had too many hard counters. Just, really hard to place high with a csm list any other way.

It would have been nice if they reduced csm squad costs but oh well.

It doesn't look like there are any super dominant unbeatable lists anymore. Maybe what was improved will help to bring back viability. 100 daemonettes, a castellan, a couple of deredeo dreadnoughts and a couple of rapier batteries is 2000 points

I think it will always be worth taking the one large squad of cultists. If your opponent cant/doesnt deal with it it will be a pretty strong unit. Otherwise I agree that CSM squads are at least equal as far as troops go if not better

Ok so new list, just need to check it’s legal as it’s battlescribe and want to make sure

Spearhead

Ahirman on disc

Hellbrute x2 fist
Hellbrute x2 fist
Ferrum infernum x2 fist
Ferrum infernum x2 fist
Hellforged contemptor x2 fist x2 Bolter
Hellforged contemptor x2 fist x2 Bolter

Traitor guard.
Company commander
Company commander

10 mutants
10 mutants
10 mutants

1000pts on the dot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Edit, if legal what psychic powers would you suggest on ahirman for this list?

It took me some crosschecking, but I think Battlescribe is in error:

There aint no Ferrum Infernus dreads anymore (they were in 7th ed).
The FW Chaos index FAQ states:

Q: There is no datasheet for a Ferrum Infernus Chaos Dreadnought – is there a datasheet I should use for this model? A: Use the Helbrute datasheet on page 33 of
Index: Chaos

Which means they're just hellbrutes. Battlescribe has them listed as their own entry (even though it's identicle to hellbrute).
So your army is currently has 4 hellbrutes, which breaks the limit of 3 datasheet rule (if that's something you play with).

 McGibs wrote:
It took me some crosschecking, but I think Battlescribe is in error:

There aint no Ferrum Infernus dreads anymore (they were in 7th ed).
The FW Chaos index FAQ states:

Q: There is no datasheet for a Ferrum Infernus Chaos Dreadnought – is there a datasheet I should use for this model? A: Use the Helbrute datasheet on page 33 of
Index: Chaos

Which means they're just hellbrutes. Battlescribe has them listed as their own entry (even though it's identicle to hellbrute).
So your army is currently has 4 hellbrutes, which breaks the limit of 3 datasheet rule (if that's something you play with).

Agreed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The sonic dread is more of a grey area...

 Formosa wrote:
Ok so new list, just need to check it’s legal as it’s battlescribe and want to make sure

Spearhead

Ahirman on disc

Hellbrute x2 fist
Hellbrute x2 fist
Ferrum infernum x2 fist
Ferrum infernum x2 fist
Hellforged contemptor x2 fist x2 Bolter
Hellforged contemptor x2 fist x2 Bolter

Traitor guard.
Company commander
Company commander

10 mutants
10 mutants
10 mutants

1000pts on the dot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Edit, if legal what psychic powers would you suggest on ahirman for this list?

Seems legal, might i ask why run the fist hellbrutes over flails or dakka options?

 McGibs wrote:
It took me some crosschecking, but I think Battlescribe is in error:

There aint no Ferrum Infernus dreads anymore (they were in 7th ed).
The FW Chaos index FAQ states:

Q: There is no datasheet for a Ferrum Infernus Chaos Dreadnought – is there a datasheet I should use for this model? A: Use the Helbrute datasheet on page 33 of
Index: Chaos

Which means they're just hellbrutes. Battlescribe has them listed as their own entry (even though it's identicle to hellbrute).
So your army is currently has 4 hellbrutes, which breaks the limit of 3 datasheet rule (if that's something you play with).

Thank you for the reply but reading that FAQ it seems that it is a ferrum dreadnought but uses the hellbrute data sheet, different name same rules and would come under the ferrum infernum dreadnought name for the datasheet... that is ambiguous enough for me to have to ask the TO if it applies against the 2 datasheet limit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Ok so new list, just need to check it’s legal as it’s battlescribe and want to make sure

Spearhead

Ahirman on disc

Hellbrute x2 fist
Hellbrute x2 fist
Ferrum infernum x2 fist
Ferrum infernum x2 fist
Hellforged contemptor x2 fist x2 Bolter
Hellforged contemptor x2 fist x2 Bolter

Traitor guard.
Company commander
Company commander

10 mutants
10 mutants
10 mutants

1000pts on the dot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Edit, if legal what psychic powers would you suggest on ahirman for this list?

Seems legal, might i ask why run the fist hellbrutes over flails or dakka options?

I’m trying to squeeze in as many dreads as I can do trying to keep them as cheap as possible, plus I own lots of dreads with dual ccw.

 Formosa wrote:

 McGibs wrote:
It took me some crosschecking, but I think Battlescribe is in error:

There aint no Ferrum Infernus dreads anymore (they were in 7th ed).
The FW Chaos index FAQ states:

Q: There is no datasheet for a Ferrum Infernus Chaos Dreadnought – is there a datasheet I should use for this model? A: Use the Helbrute datasheet on page 33 of
Index: Chaos

Which means they're just hellbrutes. Battlescribe has them listed as their own entry (even though it's identicle to hellbrute).
So your army is currently has 4 hellbrutes, which breaks the limit of 3 datasheet rule (if that's something you play with).

Thank you for the reply but reading that FAQ it seems that it is a ferrum dreadnought but uses the hellbrute data sheet, different name same rules and would come under the ferrum infernum dreadnought name for the datasheet... that is ambiguous enough for me to have to ask the TO if it applies against the 2 datasheet limit.

Definitely check with your TO because their ruling is all that really matters at the end of the day, but do remember that the Rule of 3 is a rule that specifically states against more than 3 of the one datasheet, which they do share. It is kinda ambiguous though and i culd see it interpreted both ways

I am asking her now, luckily she lives next door lol


Automatically Appended Next Post:
she has allowed is as she stated that this could apply

I am going to following this ruling that GW made in regards to a similar issue:

Q3) Are the Daemon Prince datasheet from Codex: Chaos Space Marines, the Daemon Prince of Nurgle datasheet from Codex: Death Guard, and the Daemon Prince of Tzeentch datasheet from Codex: Thousand Sons all considered different datasheets for the purposes of the Organised Events guidelines?
A3) Yes.

So although they all use the Helbrute datasheet, they will be considered to be different for the purposes of that rule

I think that is a different story, as they share a Name, but have differences in datasheet, whereas these two have different names, but identical datasheet.

Again, go with what is allowed, just pointing out that from a RAW perspective i dont believe that to be the exact same thing

crikey thats confusing, i might also ping GW an email just to let them know, possibly may be sorted in an FAQ later on

Your TO is law at the end of the day, but anywhere else I'd argue that they dont even have different names. The ferrum dread just doesnt exist anymore as a unit. That FAQ was just saying: "Hey, if you have a FW Ferrus Dread model, it's a Hellbrute now."

Why it's a full separate entry on battlescribe is baffling to me. THAT'S the confusing part.

For an objective based match (with progressive scoring) for a World Eaters army, is there any place at all for taking stock Marines as troop choices? Or is it better off to just go purely for Berzerkers in Rhinos, and Cultists on foot? Now that the difference between Cultists and Marines for an MSU is a mere 15 points, is there that big of a difference still? And i'm going to preface this with the fact that I probably wont be running a giant blob. MSU cultists only.

 vaklor4 wrote:
For an objective based match (with progressive scoring) for a World Eaters army, is there any place at all for taking stock Marines as troop choices? Or is it better off to just go purely for Berzerkers in Rhinos, and Cultists on foot? Now that the difference between Cultists and Marines for an MSU is a mere 15 points, is there that big of a difference still? And i'm going to preface this with the fact that I probably wont be running a giant blob. MSU cultists only.

Now if you'd pick 5 man CSM squads then i'd personally reccomend you give them also a HW to bolster dakka a bit, probably a Autocannon?

Alternate take is target saturation, as many 5 man berzerker squads with rhinos as possible as to guarantee that you get to the enemy. Granted you then have nothing that can sit on a objective.

Technically you could put a 5 man berzerker and 5 man csm squad with a heavy weapon in each of your rhinos, drop the marines off somewhere on a point and throw the berzerker at faces , i mean that could work but tbh i would probably still take a big cultist blob just for the fact that they are prety hard to remove and can be dangerous.

 vaklor4 wrote:
For an objective based match (with progressive scoring) for a World Eaters army, is there any place at all for taking stock Marines as troop choices? Or is it better off to just go purely for Berzerkers in Rhinos, and Cultists on foot? Now that the difference between Cultists and Marines for an MSU is a mere 15 points, is there that big of a difference still? And i'm going to preface this with the fact that I probably wont be running a giant blob. MSU cultists only.

It's a great question. I'd think having more wounds would be more valuable, therefore the Cultists.

However, does it have to be just troops? The cost difference between CSM and Chosen isn't that big either...

 techsoldaten wrote:

 vaklor4 wrote:
For an objective based match (with progressive scoring) for a World Eaters army, is there any place at all for taking stock Marines as troop choices? Or is it better off to just go purely for Berzerkers in Rhinos, and Cultists on foot? Now that the difference between Cultists and Marines for an MSU is a mere 15 points, is there that big of a difference still? And i'm going to preface this with the fact that I probably wont be running a giant blob. MSU cultists only.

It's a great question. I'd think having more wounds would be more valuable, therefore the Cultists.

However, does it have to be just troops? The cost difference between CSM and Chosen isn't that big either...

Yeah, very specifically troop choice, for detachment reasons. The more wounds IS fantastic, but I gotta wonder what the overall math is with the +1 toughness and 3+ save. That's an incredibly higher chance of shrugging off wounds and resisting AP, and the bracket of 3-4 toughness effects a /lot/ of guns in the game.

What weapons do you guys want me to mathhammer Cultists vs. Marines against?

 JNAProductions wrote:
What weapons do you guys want me to mathhammer Cultists vs. Marines against?

Because I have access to the better in every way possible Khorne Berzerkers for melee cultist comparisons, let's look at Autogun Cultists vs Boltgun Marines. 4 marines with boltguns, and a heavy bolter on the fifth.

I meant more in "Shooting at the Troops choice" not an actual 1v1, but sure!

Cultists have 10 shots, assuming out of rapid fire.
5 hit
5/3 wound
5/9 failed saves

.56 dead per round, or 7.28 points. (Not including HB cost since I'm AFB.)

Marines have 4 shots and 3 HB shots
8/3 hits
16/9 wound
40/27 failed saves
and
2 hits
4/3 wound
4/3 dead

2.81 dead per round, or 14.05 points.

Marines are also hit less hard by hit penalties, more resistant to morale, and look cooler. Also have better range on the Heavy Bolter.