Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:
I have always found it extremely odd how the Heretic Legion's weapons have been the same old same old weapons since the Horus Revolution even though they have access to the Dark Mechanicus with their unfettered ability to experiment and use warp/demon stuff.

I'm fairly sure that the Dark Mechanicus is not known for their reasonable R&D branches and exceptional customer support .

 AtoMaki wrote:
I'm fairly sure that the Dark Mechanicus is not known for their reasonable R&D branches and exceptional customer support .

"Have you tried unplugging the Hellbrute and plugging it back in?"

 AtoMaki wrote:

 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:
I have always found it extremely odd how the Heretic Legion's weapons have been the same old same old weapons since the Horus Revolution even though they have access to the Dark Mechanicus with their unfettered ability to experiment and use warp/demon stuff.

I'm fairly sure that the Dark Mechanicus is not known for their reasonable R&D branches and exceptional customer support .

Helltalon, hellblades etc from that specific dark admech world are expensive but top quality.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:
I'm fairly sure that the Dark Mechanicus is not known for their reasonable R&D branches and exceptional customer support .

"Have you tried unplugging the Hellbrute and plugging it back in?"

"Yes this is the D. A.M.S.A.C.
Or dark Adeptus Mechanicus support acolythe conclave, how can we help you?"

Yes warlord we fully understand that the crabclaw on a defiler is an integral part.

What? Refunds! I am sorry we have strict order to not allow refunds.

Yes i am deeply sorry that the defiler for your khornate warband has as a Pilot a slaaneshy daemon.
No we can't refund you the decimator if you do not propperly reign in a defiler during warp Travel.
We could surely however give a perfectly fine bionic lower body to brother antrhax.

WAIT FOR FREE! No impossible.

Hello,hello?

Do you belive this nagan, the meatbag just seems to have dropped his voxcaster into the void, and such people get our trice cursed machines!
I tell you, we should implement a mandatory course for future daemonengine owners. "

Shortly thereafter warlord karnaths ship the fury of Khorne was found drifting around the warp.

Asherian Command wrote:

Supply Lines. Unlike the Imperium, the traitor forces under Abaddon and all that do not have full access to equipment and gear. Their equipment is almost always scavenged and the dark mechanicus is very secluded they don't serve anyone. Hell we know for instance they had massive issues with recruitment for the CSM forces in the eye for decades before they began the first black crusade. Their supply lines are always thin, their equipment almost always stolen. Even the black legion suffers from this.

The traitors have and never have been united. The Legion wars between the CSM depleted many of the resources that they had. As the Dark Mechanicus especially just went into full hiding. It also stripped the entirety of the Emperor's Children of their forces and shattered them permanently.

It makes sense for the CSM to have daemon possessed Astartes or something similar to Gal Valrok to return to the fold. I don't think we will see primaris CSM but instead Possessed that dwarf Primaris.

Maybe, but CSM live in the highway that those supply lines travel through at least part of it anyways. Not to mention while that makes some sense on a macro level, but still breaks down on the tabletop level. I mean my CSM army can easy have 6 plasmaguns, they just can't be in one squad. Which is part of my point. The fact that they have never been unified makes it all the more curious that my warband follow the same load out formula of every other CSM warband out there. Perhaps my Chaos Lord has decided that maybe loading up all the combi-metaguns he has into one terminacide squad that going to teleport down and absolutely nuke one high priority objective. Sure, he might lose the meltaguns but maybe he didn't trust those terminators anyway and these weapons might convince them that the lord believes they will succeed since there is no way he would risk so much on a reckless maneuver. Or maybe he has access to a large number of power weapons for some reason so isn't such a big deal to hand them out like chainswords. I could see the same for looted Imperial weapons. Sure, they only pillaged a limited amount of ammo and supplies, maybe even the machine spirit doesn't like them too much, but a grenade launcher is a grenade launcher and would be a nice addition to a kill team. And all of this forgoes any sort of lesser demonic weaponry the warband may have been Blood Raven 'gifted.' It is actually harder to believe that kind of stuff if CSM were still united as they would have more balanced arsenals then.

AtoMaki wrote:I'm fairly sure that the Dark Mechanicus is not known for their reasonable R&D branches and exceptional customer support .

I could see a mad tech priest forming a partnership with a Chaos Lord to bring materials exchange for tech especially dangerous prototypes in need of field testing preferably a subsector away from the priest's lab.

Doesn't chaos have huge planet size forges and forge world that mass produce weapons that are upgraded versions of the tech from heresy and pre heresy times? I could imagine some small cast out warband having problems with resuppling, but something like the black legion should have no problems getting the best weapons and the best tech for their warriors. Plus unlike their imperial counter parts, the chaos mechanicus and tech marines can experiment all they want with new stuff. They don't have to follow procedures like drones.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

2- Primaris Marines have a stat line that is exactly what a Space Marine should have always been. 2 wounds, 2 attacks, you know. They actually feel like Space Marines, but what holds them back is their weapon restrictions. I say it'd be interesting to just be able to give all Space Marines that basic Stat Line and see what happens- basically, remove the difference between Primaris and Original, make them all the same, and go wild.

3- Chaos Space Marines are just scary-looking punchmeat, with a few nifty tricks but overall aren't as good as their loyalist kin- even though, IMHO, CSM should be terrifying... and the army is "Chaos Space Marines", but ends up often being more like "Massive Horde of Cultists with Scary Spikey Monster Daemon Engine and some guy with a jump pack"

Yeah I think that these problems don’t fix each other. Primaris still use lots of non PA stuff they can’t really work without a delivery system for hellblasters, usually a repulsor if they don’t have special deployment, and they benefit a lot from allying horde units. Loyalists take min PA and Chaos take an even lower min PA.

Even with stat changes and extra options, PA units have to be able to work by themselves, without needing the other half of a combo.

HoundsOfDemos wrote:If I took PA guys in a standard CAD and rolled up to even a semi competitive game, every marine body I took puts me at a disadvantage. For marines to be useful again GW needs to put superheavies back into apoc land, and tone down how easy it is to spam AP -2 plus weapons.

Except that pure heavy armor has never been a good counter irl to infantry. Space marines need to go up against superheavies by themselves all the time in the background. If 20 year old humans can kill tanks in the 20th century with rocket tubes, grenades, and anti tank rifles, of course some blasted space marines can blow some up with space age las cannons and melta guns. The rules just don’t reflect it atm.

Karol wrote:
Doesn't chaos have huge planet size forges and forge world that mass produce weapons that are upgraded versions of the tech from heresy and pre heresy times? I could imagine some small cast out warband having problems with resuppling, but something like the black legion should have no problems getting the best weapons and the best tech for their warriors. Plus unlike their imperial counter parts, the chaos mechanicus and tech marines can experiment all they want with new stuff. They don't have to follow procedures like drones.

I don't think they do, but I'm not up-to-date on the current Dark Mechanicus background.

 Dysartes wrote:

Karol wrote:
Doesn't chaos have huge planet size forges and forge world that mass produce weapons that are upgraded versions of the tech from heresy and pre heresy times? I could imagine some small cast out warband having problems with resuppling, but something like the black legion should have no problems getting the best weapons and the best tech for their warriors. Plus unlike their imperial counter parts, the chaos mechanicus and tech marines can experiment all they want with new stuff. They don't have to follow procedures like drones.

I don't think they do, but I'm not up-to-date on the current Dark Mechanicus background.

They do, F.e.Xana II which builds supposedly terrorclass frigates and produces Helltalon /blades fighter and strike craft.

Then there is the System "the Hollowos"

However many more have consolidated with the legions, (note that they also freelance) to manufacture and of course statisfy their needs for R&D.

So yes Chaos owns forge worlds, but less then the imperium however the legions themselves and even warbands got more direct access to magi which maintain supply.

With this announcement :

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/01/21/21st-jan-introducing-better-beta-boltersgw-homepage-post-4/



I am thinking that marines in general are in a much better place.

This still doesn't address their lack in terms of firepower against heavy vehicles. Hopefully, they decide to nerf DW in some way that prevents them from being the most overpowered marine army ever made.

This still leaves terminators in a weird spot, but unfortunately, they are too expensive still to take even with their guaranteed 4 shots.

Bikers and the veteran bikers I suggested are now bonkers. (Veteran bikers with storm bolters and stormshields + twinbolt guns, 8 shots per a turn?!)

Ravenwing got far better as well, grey knights just need that rule on base on all of their units no matter what.

If I would add anything it would be if the model is within 1/4 range you may fire an additional time in addition to the other rapid fire range. So a Combibolter at 6" would be 5 shots, instead of just 4. (increasing it by 1 not 2!)

This unforunately screws over all the intercessor other options, specifically the stalker pattern and assault bolter which is now worse objectively bare any ranges.

It's welcome to see, but I doubt it's going to make anyone any more inclined to take Tactical Marines than they already are - which is to say hardly at all. Makes Intercessors a bit better, but still not really worth more than 15pts per model. I think the biggest change is we'll see more bolter Scouts over sniper Scouts.

 Grand.Master.Raziel wrote:
It's welcome to see, but I doubt it's going to make anyone any more inclined to take Tactical Marines than they already are - which is to say hardly at all. Makes Intercessors a bit better, but still not really worth more than 15pts per model. I think the biggest change is we'll see more bolter Scouts over sniper Scouts.

I'm honestly expecting to see Deathwatch Terminators taken in squads under that rule. 31pts/model (sword, not fist) for a SIA storm bolter firing four shots at AP-1 out to 30"?

 Grand.Master.Raziel wrote:
It's welcome to see, but I doubt it's going to make anyone any more inclined to take Tactical Marines than they already are - which is to say hardly at all. Makes Intercessors a bit better, but still not really worth more than 15pts per model. I think the biggest change is we'll see more bolter Scouts over sniper Scouts.

Nobody was seeing Sniper Scouts this edition in the first place, so I don't understand your commentary.

I use them now at 16 ppm.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Grand.Master.Raziel wrote:
It's welcome to see, but I doubt it's going to make anyone any more inclined to take Tactical Marines than they already are - which is to say hardly at all. Makes Intercessors a bit better, but still not really worth more than 15pts per model. I think the biggest change is we'll see more bolter Scouts over sniper Scouts.

Nobody was seeing Sniper Scouts this edition in the first place, so I don't understand your commentary.

I use a set of scout snipers along with my ratlings and rein/raus in my current GT list. A lot of people write their lists assuming that their characters will be safe chilling behind their escorts, and 16 good BS rifles is enough to punish that assumption.

I'm doing that as well. 16 pom for 2+ armor is at least middling.

Martel732 wrote:
I'm doing that as well. 16 pom for 2+ armor is at least middling.

Only in cover vs shooting. At least remove the Camo Cloak.

No. The camo cloak makes it points back easy vs AP 0 and AP -1. Ignore cover is relatively rare for now. If I can force them to shoot AP -2 and better at my troops, I'm happy. Given how many dum dums I lose to mortars, splinter, lasguns and the like, it's well worth it.

For once, I'd say Martel is right. Camo cloaks make the snipers have the same armor save in cover as a terminator suit, well worth the cost when your goal is to kill characters or take potshots at heavy weapons teams when characters are down or hidden.

The planet-ending meteor is on way.

That feel when an old poncho gives you as much protection as a suit of armour build to walk knee deep in plasma D:

What it SHOULD do is reduce the enemy's ballistics skill when aiming at them. But it's probably for the best that it doesn't given how obnoxious that can get while stacking it.