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Dai wrote: Yarrick was literally THE iconic special character and commisars the well known guard hq since at least the early 90s. There's unpopular opinion and then there's not knowing ya history. Noobs...
...calls people "noobs" while holding up a character that showed up in 2000 as "THE iconic special character since at least the early 90s".
Dai wrote: Yarrick was literally THE iconic special character and commisars the well known guard hq since at least the early 90s. There's unpopular opinion and then there's not knowing ya history. Noobs...
...calls people "noobs" while holding up a character that showed up in 2000 as "THE iconic special character since at least the early 90s".
Yarrick was in "Battle for Armageddon", released in 1992.
Dai wrote: Yarrick was literally THE iconic special character and commisars the well known guard hq since at least the early 90s. There's unpopular opinion and then there's not knowing ya history. Noobs...
...calls people "noobs" while holding up a character that showed up in 2000 as "THE iconic special character since at least the early 90s".
Dai wrote: Yarrick was literally THE iconic special character and commisars the well known guard hq since at least the early 90s. There's unpopular opinion and then there's not knowing ya history. Noobs...
...calls people "noobs" while holding up a character that showed up in 2000 as "THE iconic special character since at least the early 90s".
The current model is from 2000, Yarrick however was most definitely in the mid 90's 2E codex, just with an older (more Blanche-ey) model.
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
Dai wrote: Yarrick was literally THE iconic special character and commisars the well known guard hq since at least the early 90s. There's unpopular opinion and then there's not knowing ya history. Noobs...
...calls people "noobs" while holding up a character that showed up in 2000 as "THE iconic special character since at least the early 90s".
I don't know for the model, but there is art work of Yarrick and mention of him the fluff as early as the early 2nd edition. Here you have an early day Yarrick.
Considering what has been posted right before, it wouldn't even be far fetched to say that Yarrick was the first commissar of GW. I haven't found images of older models of Commissars.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/26 20:36:26
Mmmpi wrote: Yeah, that's what I get for an off the cuff post. Should have done my research a bit more.
An accurate summary or your contribution so far to this thread.
The conventional definition of spammed is simply a unit that is taken more than others and to a large degree. Something Guard are without question.
Did you not earlier say that you saw no mono lists and no lists with more than the minimum taken? Both if these statements are incorrect. I'm not sure of the relevance of the squads being 'naked'?
Its nothing to do with Marines not having a rule, it's about Guard having MORE than every other army in the game. This is imbalanced and is a reason for the current issues with the game.
Mmmpi wrote: Yeah, that's what I get for an off the cuff post. Should have done my research a bit more.
An accurate summary or your contribution so far to this thread.
The conventional definition of spammed is simply a unit that is taken more than others and to a large degree. Something Guard are without question.
Did you not earlier say that you saw no mono lists and no lists with more than the minimum taken? Both if these statements are incorrect. I'm not sure of the relevance of the squads being 'naked'?
Its nothing to do with Marines not having a rule, it's about Guard having MORE than every other army in the game. This is imbalanced and is a reason for the current issues with the game.
Today I learned that taking the minimum amount required of a unit was the same thing as spamming.
Next time I play a Sororitas opponent, I'll make sure to accuse them of spamming if they take at least one Canoness. After all, one HQ is required, and they could have used a Preacher.
Dai wrote: Yarrick was literally THE iconic special character and commisars the well known guard hq since at least the early 90s. There's unpopular opinion and then there's not knowing ya history. Noobs...
...calls people "noobs" while holding up a character that showed up in 2000 as "THE iconic special character since at least the early 90s".
The current model is from 2000, Yarrick however was most definitely in the mid 90's 2E codex, just with an older (more Blanche-ey) model.
Okay so fine. He was there beforehand.
But was he "THE iconic special character"? No. Not by a damn long shot. Solar Macharius was.
Dai wrote: Yarrick was literally THE iconic special character and commisars the well known guard hq since at least the early 90s. There's unpopular opinion and then there's not knowing ya history. Noobs...
...calls people "noobs" while holding up a character that showed up in 2000 as "THE iconic special character since at least the early 90s".
The current model is from 2000, Yarrick however was most definitely in the mid 90's 2E codex, just with an older (more Blanche-ey) model.
Okay so fine. He was there beforehand.
But was he "THE iconic special character"? No. Not by a damn long shot. Solar Macharius was.
I don't even know who that is.
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
Dai wrote: Yarrick was literally THE iconic special character and commisars the well known guard hq since at least the early 90s. There's unpopular opinion and then there's not knowing ya history. Noobs...
...calls people "noobs" while holding up a character that showed up in 2000 as "THE iconic special character since at least the early 90s".
The current model is from 2000, Yarrick however was most definitely in the mid 90's 2E codex, just with an older (more Blanche-ey) model.
Okay so fine. He was there beforehand.
But was he "THE iconic special character"? No. Not by a damn long shot. Solar Macharius was.
As a source of quotes? Maybe.
But he only appeared in the game (with a model) in 3rd edition, and cycled out in the following book (from memory).
Yarrick, on the other hand, has been a playable special character since the 2nd edition Codex, at a bare minimum. He's pretty darned iconic as far as playable Imperial Guard special characters go.
Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.
Kanluwen wrote: This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.
Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army...
tneva82 wrote: You aren't even trying ty pretend for honest arqument. Open bad faith trolling.
- No reason to keep this here, unless people want to use it for something...
Dai wrote: Yarrick was literally THE iconic special character and commisars the well known guard hq since at least the early 90s. There's unpopular opinion and then there's not knowing ya history. Noobs...
...calls people "noobs" while holding up a character that showed up in 2000 as "THE iconic special character since at least the early 90s".
The current model is from 2000, Yarrick however was most definitely in the mid 90's 2E codex, just with an older (more Blanche-ey) model.
Okay so fine. He was there beforehand.
But was he "THE iconic special character"? No. Not by a damn long shot. Solar Macharius was.
Mmmpi wrote: Yeah, that's what I get for an off the cuff post. Should have done my research a bit more.
An accurate summary or your contribution so far to this thread.
The conventional definition of spammed is simply a unit that is taken more than others and to a large degree. Something Guard are without question.
Did you not earlier say that you saw no mono lists and no lists with more than the minimum taken? Both if these statements are incorrect. I'm not sure of the relevance of the squads being 'naked'?
Its nothing to do with Marines not having a rule, it's about Guard having MORE than every other army in the game. This is imbalanced and is a reason for the current issues with the game.
Today I learned that taking the minimum amount required of a unit was the same thing as spamming.
Next time I play a Sororitas opponent, I'll make sure to accuse them of spamming if they take at least one Canoness. After all, one HQ is required, and they could have used a Preacher.
Today I learned that the minimum amount of something is not "0". "But Imperial Soup lists can only take Guardsmen as their troop choice!" I hear you cry. But wait. That's not right. They actually have access to the most troops in the game but they all choose to take Guardsmen in all of their lists. "But IG only have one troop unit!" I hear you cry. But wait. That's wrong too.
Your above claim is both strawmanning and inaccurate as I have already shown that people are taking much more than the minimum amount.
Mmmpi wrote: Yeah, that's what I get for an off the cuff post. Should have done my research a bit more.
An accurate summary or your contribution so far to this thread.
The conventional definition of spammed is simply a unit that is taken more than others and to a large degree. Something Guard are without question.
Did you not earlier say that you saw no mono lists and no lists with more than the minimum taken? Both if these statements are incorrect. I'm not sure of the relevance of the squads being 'naked'?
Its nothing to do with Marines not having a rule, it's about Guard having MORE than every other army in the game. This is imbalanced and is a reason for the current issues with the game.
Today I learned that taking the minimum amount required of a unit was the same thing as spamming.
Next time I play a Sororitas opponent, I'll make sure to accuse them of spamming if they take at least one Canoness. After all, one HQ is required, and they could have used a Preacher.
Today I learned that the minimum amount of something is not "0". "But Imperial Soup lists can only take Guardsmen as their troop choice!" I hear you cry. But wait. That's not right. They actually have access to the most troops in the game but they all choose to take Guardsmen in all of their lists. "But IG only have one troop unit!" I hear you cry. But wait. That's wrong too.
Your above claim is both strawmanning and inaccurate as I have already shown that people are taking much more than the minimum amount.
Made me chuckle nonetheless.
So three units to fill a Battalion is spamming? Since most only take the 32.
You can say, with accuracy, the Loyal 32 are spammed, in that they're in a disproportionate number of Imperium tournament lists. But the Loyal 32 themselves are not spamming Infantry squads.
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
Trickstick wrote: I mean I like Macharius, but he wasn't even alive by the 999999m41 time period that the game has revolved around for most of its life.
So? Neither was Gaunt, yet people try to paint him as some kind of pivotal figure.
JNAProductions wrote: So three units to fill a Battalion is spamming? Since most only take the 32.
You can say, with accuracy, the Loyal 32 are spammed, in that they're in a disproportionate number of Imperium tournament lists. But the Loyal 32 themselves are not spamming Infantry squads.
We've already ascertained that there are more than just the loyal 32 getting taken in competitive Imperium lists. Many of the most successful take 60 and 80 models....
When the same models are getting taken in 90% of Imperium lists in numbers of 30, 60 and more I think it's pretty conclusive.
Edit - Kan seriously Yarrick is an absolute legend and probably the most well known Imperial Guard character tied with CREEEEEEED. His name also sounds very similar to my own which makes him even more bad ass.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/26 23:03:11
Mmmpi wrote: Yeah, that's what I get for an off the cuff post. Should have done my research a bit more.
An accurate summary or your contribution so far to this thread.
The conventional definition of spammed is simply a unit that is taken more than others and to a large degree. Something Guard are without question.
Did you not earlier say that you saw no mono lists and no lists with more than the minimum taken? Both if these statements are incorrect. I'm not sure of the relevance of the squads being 'naked'?
Its nothing to do with Marines not having a rule, it's about Guard having MORE than every other army in the game. This is imbalanced and is a reason for the current issues with the game.
Today I learned that taking the minimum amount required of a unit was the same thing as spamming.
Next time I play a Sororitas opponent, I'll make sure to accuse them of spamming if they take at least one Canoness. After all, one HQ is required, and they could have used a Preacher.
Today I learned that the minimum amount of something is not "0". "But Imperial Soup lists can only take Guardsmen as their troop choice!" I hear you cry. But wait. That's not right. They actually have access to the most troops in the game but they all choose to take Guardsmen in all of their lists. "But IG only have one troop unit!" I hear you cry. But wait. That's wrong too.
Your above claim is both strawmanning and inaccurate as I have already shown that people are taking much more than the minimum amount.
Made me chuckle nonetheless.
Today i learned that you can have have the most troops in the game even if you have only 3 while there are factions with 5
Mmmpi wrote: Yeah, that's what I get for an off the cuff post. Should have done my research a bit more.
An accurate summary or your contribution so far to this thread.
The conventional definition of spammed is simply a unit that is taken more than others and to a large degree. Something Guard are without question.
Did you not earlier say that you saw no mono lists and no lists with more than the minimum taken? Both if these statements are incorrect. I'm not sure of the relevance of the squads being 'naked'?
Its nothing to do with Marines not having a rule, it's about Guard having MORE than every other army in the game. This is imbalanced and is a reason for the current issues with the game.
Today I learned that taking the minimum amount required of a unit was the same thing as spamming.
Next time I play a Sororitas opponent, I'll make sure to accuse them of spamming if they take at least one Canoness. After all, one HQ is required, and they could have used a Preacher.
Today I learned that the minimum amount of something is not "0". "But Imperial Soup lists can only take Guardsmen as their troop choice!" I hear you cry. But wait. That's not right. They actually have access to the most troops in the game but they all choose to take Guardsmen in all of their lists. "But IG only have one troop unit!" I hear you cry. But wait. That's wrong too.
Your above claim is both strawmanning and inaccurate as I have already shown that people are taking much more than the minimum amount.
Made me chuckle nonetheless.
Today i learned that you can have have the most troops in the game even if you have only 3 while there are factions with 5
Sorry, i couldn't resist
I think Imperial Soup lists have access to more than 3 troop choices duder....
Guard have 3 troops choices yes. One is the classic basic backbone of the army. One is a flavor option that has been nerfed into pointlessness. The last has to be taken in its own detachment for all its mechanics to kick in as a mini-faction and functions entirely differently from the rest of the army. That one would see the classic backbone in most lists make sense. Seeing more than 6 squads, while it happens, is nowhere near the norm, in most cases, just enough to fill the detachment are taken. Classic IG infantry wall lists aren't winning much of anything these days on their own.
As for other armies, again, thats primarily the CP battery. Break the CP sharing and that will be...dramatically less popular.
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
No way Macharius is more iconic than Yarrick. I was there when he could strangle Squats with that reverse-looted powerclaw. Maybe even a Zoat.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/26 23:55:36
"By this point I'm convinced 100% that every single race in the 40k universe have somehow tapped into the ork ability to just have their tech work because they think it should."
To me, Yarrick was the sole reason for starting Steel Legion back when I first got into 40k. Yarrick vs. Ghazgkull will always be one of the most memorable hero/villain-setups in 40k.
Macharius, on the other hand, never did anything for me. Perhaps because he looks like a fancy schmuck compared to the badass that Yarrick is. To be fair, I never looked into his lore, so I might have missed out.
Macharius has some pretty awesome fluff, he is essentially Alexander the great in space and what you would get if you fused creed and yarrick together, super smart general who also smashes faces on melee. That said his tabletop presence is nonexistent, he's entirely a fluff character unlike Yarrick who's one of guards most iconic tabletop characters.
That said this is starting to get off topic.
In regards to infantry squads, I have to agree with vaktathi, most of the time you see guard squads, you see the minimum required for the detachment, he that 3 for a battalion or 6 for a Brigade. The increased number you see on the field doesn't detract from the point that you tend to see the minimum required to gain that much CP and you pretty much never see detachments maxing out how many guardsmen that they can take.
Dai wrote: Yarrick was literally THE iconic special character and commisars the well known guard hq since at least the early 90s. There's unpopular opinion and then there's not knowing ya history. Noobs...
...calls people "noobs" while holding up a character that showed up in 2000 as "THE iconic special character since at least the early 90s".
The current model is from 2000, Yarrick however was most definitely in the mid 90's 2E codex, just with an older (more Blanche-ey) model.
Okay so fine. He was there beforehand.
But was he "THE iconic special character"? No. Not by a damn long shot. Solar Macharius was.
Going to be honest with you, I never saw either on a table. (because it was the Grand Old Days of Thou Shall Not Use Special Characters)
But people talked about Yarrick. Yarrick was amazing, able to out-ork the orks in general and Margaret Thatcher specifically. Macharius was an irrelevant footnote that wandered off in the wrong direction.
Dai wrote: Yarrick was literally THE iconic special character and commisars the well known guard hq since at least the early 90s. There's unpopular opinion and then there's not knowing ya history. Noobs...
...calls people "noobs" while holding up a character that showed up in 2000 as "THE iconic special character since at least the early 90s".
The current model is from 2000, Yarrick however was most definitely in the mid 90's 2E codex, just with an older (more Blanche-ey) model.
Okay so fine. He was there beforehand.
But was he "THE iconic special character"? No. Not by a damn long shot. Solar Macharius was.
Lol, no. Yarrick was the icon people knew from back in the day. Solar Macharius is a fine character, but Yarrick was more known by players. Macharius didnt get a model until later, like 3rd. I'm not sure he existed prior to that.
Insectum7 wrote: Lol, no. Yarrick was the icon people knew from back in the day. Solar Macharius is a fine character, but Yarrick was more known by players. Macharius didnt get a model until later, like 3rd. I'm not sure he existed prior to that.
In my opinion, Macharius is to the Imperial Guard what the Primarchs are to Space Marines in 40K. They are long dead heroes who pretty much represent the very best they aspire to be, an examplar of perfection that can nver be reached again, but that the very best can get close to. Macharius was a fearless general with a genius for conquest unseen anywhere else. Planets were named after him and he bace a Saint upon his death. Like the Primarchs were in 40K though, he is a footnote, a lore element. The living thing that could be the next Macharius is Sebastian Yarrick.
Mmmpi wrote: Yeah, that's what I get for an off the cuff post. Should have done my research a bit more.
An accurate summary or your contribution so far to this thread.
Then you haven't been reading my posts. Don't be a jerk.
The conventional definition of spammed is simply a unit that is taken more than others and to a large degree. Something Guard are without question.
I agree with your definition of spammed. But not in how you're applying it to guard. Taking the literal minimum is bey definition not spam. Them showing up everywhere means they're common.
Did you not earlier say that you saw no mono lists and no lists with more than the minimum taken? Both if these statements are incorrect. I'm not sure of the relevance of the squads being 'naked'?
I also noticed that you have yet to back up what you said. Sorry buddy. I said where I did my research.
Its nothing to do with Marines not having a rule, it's about Guard having MORE than every other army in the game. This is imbalanced and is a reason for the current issues with the game.
I disagree. It's about people whining about their Mary Sues not being Mary Sue enough. Guard have had orders for four editions now. They haven't changed much. In fact, despite not changing, the other armies have caught up. Everyone can advance now, not just guard. Many armies can fight, or shoot twice, and can do that with more than S3 lasguns and bayonets. Many armies have ways to ignore moral, and in ways that effect more than one squad a turn. Reroll 1 auras are in every HQ except guard, and can possible effect an entire army. So yeah. The only ones who seem to have a problem are the same group of space marine players.
Mmmpi wrote: Yeah, that's what I get for an off the cuff post. Should have done my research a bit more.
An accurate summary or your contribution so far to this thread.
The conventional definition of spammed is simply a unit that is taken more than others and to a large degree. Something Guard are without question.
Did you not earlier say that you saw no mono lists and no lists with more than the minimum taken? Both if these statements are incorrect. I'm not sure of the relevance of the squads being 'naked'?
Its nothing to do with Marines not having a rule, it's about Guard having MORE than every other army in the game. This is imbalanced and is a reason for the current issues with the game.
Today I learned that taking the minimum amount required of a unit was the same thing as spamming.
Next time I play a Sororitas opponent, I'll make sure to accuse them of spamming if they take at least one Canoness. After all, one HQ is required, and they could have used a Preacher.
Today I learned that the minimum amount of something is not "0". "But Imperial Soup lists can only take Guardsmen as their troop choice!" I hear you cry. But wait. That's not right. They actually have access to the most troops in the game but they all choose to take Guardsmen in all of their lists. "But IG only have one troop unit!" I hear you cry. But wait. That's wrong too.
Your above claim is both strawmanning and inaccurate as I have already shown that people are taking much more than the minimum amount.
Made me chuckle nonetheless.
There you go, being a jerk to people again. Yes the minimum. They have to take three troop choices (or six). And basic guard are the cheapest. So they take 3 (or 6) squads and no more. Of course if they don't take a guard detachment, it's now 0 guard squads, but now they have to take a minimum of scout squads. Or guants. Or whatever.
The goalposts are over there ==>
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/27 01:25:30
Mmmpi wrote: Yeah, that's what I get for an off the cuff post. Should have done my research a bit more.
An accurate summary or your contribution so far to this thread.
Then you haven't been reading my posts. Don't be a jerk.
The conventional definition of spammed is simply a unit that is taken more than others and to a large degree. Something Guard are without question.
I agree with your definition of spammed. But not in how you're applying it to guard. Taking the literal minimum is bey definition not spam. Them showing up everywhere means they're common.
There should also be a noted difference when talking about Spam and the Imperial Guard. This is an army that, by definition, works through spam. It's built around attrition, the Imperial Guard is all about having *lots* of units. Always has been.
Troops should also be the most common/populous units in an army (in theory). They're what a list *should* rely on. In that regard, this is the first and only edition thus far where the basic Guardsmen has been seen as a good solid unit in and of itself (as opposed to being the minimum filler to take the good stuff or the lesser-known cousins of the more capable Veteran unit which is also no longer a Troop)
So, when talking about Spam and Infantry Squads, there also needs to be some acceptance that we're talking about a unit and an army that should be fielding lots of these units.
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
JNAProductions wrote: So three units to fill a Battalion is spamming? Since most only take the 32.
You can say, with accuracy, the Loyal 32 are spammed, in that they're in a disproportionate number of Imperium tournament lists. But the Loyal 32 themselves are not spamming Infantry squads.
We've already ascertained that there are more than just the loyal 32 getting taken in competitive Imperium lists. Many of the most successful take 60 and 80 models....
When the same models are getting taken in 90% of Imperium lists in numbers of 30, 60 and more I think it's pretty conclusive.
Edit - Kan seriously Yarrick is an absolute legend and probably the most well known Imperial Guard character tied with CREEEEEEED. His name also sounds very similar to my own which makes him even more bad ass.
We actually have figured out that with one exception, people are taking the minimum guard infantry requirements. The rest of it is your verbally flailing about. Post a source. Show us these mighty 200 man IG tournament lists.
Again, what you describe is when something is common, not spammed. Removed - BrookM
Mmmpi wrote: Yeah, that's what I get for an off the cuff post. Should have done my research a bit more.
An accurate summary or your contribution so far to this thread.
The conventional definition of spammed is simply a unit that is taken more than others and to a large degree. Something Guard are without question.
Did you not earlier say that you saw no mono lists and no lists with more than the minimum taken? Both if these statements are incorrect. I'm not sure of the relevance of the squads being 'naked'?
Its nothing to do with Marines not having a rule, it's about Guard having MORE than every other army in the game. This is imbalanced and is a reason for the current issues with the game.
Today I learned that taking the minimum amount required of a unit was the same thing as spamming.
Next time I play a Sororitas opponent, I'll make sure to accuse them of spamming if they take at least one Canoness. After all, one HQ is required, and they could have used a Preacher.
Today I learned that the minimum amount of something is not "0". "But Imperial Soup lists can only take Guardsmen as their troop choice!" I hear you cry. But wait. That's not right. They actually have access to the most troops in the game but they all choose to take Guardsmen in all of their lists. "But IG only have one troop unit!" I hear you cry. But wait. That's wrong too.
Your above claim is both strawmanning and inaccurate as I have already shown that people are taking much more than the minimum amount.
Made me chuckle nonetheless.
Today i learned that you can have have the most troops in the game even if you have only 3 while there are factions with 5
Sorry, i couldn't resist
I think Imperial Soup lists have access to more than 3 troop choices duder....
And we're talking about the detachment they put guardsmen in. Which means they have three options.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/12/27 07:54:03
Gitdakka wrote: I think they should remove orders for AM, that would stop them from doing post super human feats. Just give their officers the same reroll 1s to hit aura that everybody else has and call it a day. A 40-50 pts unit should not perform so extraordinarily.
Orders have been a thing for guard since 5th edition. Taking that away would be a massive nerf to guard. Arguably, some problematic orders like FRFSRF need to be reworked, but let's not throw out the baby with the bathwater.
Kanluwen wrote: If you want to make that argument, then you should remember that the "iconic" Commissars aren't. The Gaunts and Yarricks and whatever the hell his name is from the crummy joke books?
I assume you are talking about Ciaphas Cain? They have more humor then most 40kBL novels do but why does that make them "crummy joke" books?
BertBert wrote: Macharius, on the other hand, never did anything for me. Perhaps because he looks like a fancy schmuck compared to the badass that Yarrick is. To be fair, I never looked into his lore, so I might have missed out.
It is actually really good. He was assassinated by the high lords of Terra because he was too good at conquering stuff, and they were afraid that he was becoming so popular among the masses and so successful in reclaiming worlds for the Imperium that he would have the ability to rebel and crown himself the new emperor. He would never do something like that, but they were afraid of the possibility anyway.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/12/27 01:35:46
60PL 
12PL 
