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So given that this is shaping up to be a much bigger release than expected, can we assume a new (undivided) chaos codex in the near future? Or will all the new rules be folded into the Vigilus book?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
And lose Goodwin's classic Phoenix Lords?

Never!!!

I would love times down versions of the Phoenix lords. I always thought they were too loud! Especially compared to the rest of the range and the ascetic nature of Craftworlds..

 Darkseid wrote:
So given that this is shaping up to be a much bigger release than expected, can we assume a new (undivided) chaos codex in the near future? Or will all the new rules be folded into the Vigilus book?

My money goes on a codex v2.0 in order to get that sweet recuring revenue.

 Darkseid wrote:
So given that this is shaping up to be a much bigger release than expected, can we assume a new (undivided) chaos codex in the near future? Or will all the new rules be folded into the Vigilus book?

Have GW ever released two codices for the same faction within one edition of 40k? I'm not sure if they have, or ever will. I would rather bet that they release updated rules in something like Vigilus.

Chaos and Imperial Guard in 3rd edition both got two Codexes. Dark Angels and Dark Eldar also got revised printings.

Lexicanum link

 alleus wrote:

 Darkseid wrote:
So given that this is shaping up to be a much bigger release than expected, can we assume a new (undivided) chaos codex in the near future? Or will all the new rules be folded into the Vigilus book?

Have GW ever released two codices for the same faction within one edition of 40k? I'm not sure if they have, or ever will. I would rather bet that they release updated rules in something like Vigilus.

New 40k is following a lot of the guidelines from AoS. We have the 3rd Battletome for Stormcast already (1 each year), so I can totally see Space Marines and Chaos v2.

 Hanskrampf wrote:

 alleus wrote:

 Darkseid wrote:
So given that this is shaping up to be a much bigger release than expected, can we assume a new (undivided) chaos codex in the near future? Or will all the new rules be folded into the Vigilus book?

Have GW ever released two codices for the same faction within one edition of 40k? I'm not sure if they have, or ever will. I would rather bet that they release updated rules in something like Vigilus.

New 40k is following a lot of the guidelines from AoS. We have the 3rd Battletome for Stormcast already (1 each year), so I can totally see Space Marines and Chaos v2.

True, could be the case. It would be better than spreading out the units over multiple books. Best of all would be a digital codex that would get updated with all new things, but that will never happen.

Just hope there is some love for non Black Legion marines too rather than a Black Legion expansion.

I'm praying if they do do a nex for Marines worth taking and decent Word Bearers rules

Getting a bit off topic I know

My hope would be that Forgeworld finally releses some corrupted versions of various heresy vehicles instead of doing uncountable legion specific models.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
Chaos and Imperial Guard in 3rd edition both got two Codexes. Dark Angels and Dark Eldar also got revised printings.

Lexicanum link

It could be said that Chaos got 5 codexes in 3rd edition. They got their original (crappy) one, and then 4 versions of the 3.5 codex, with each version ever so slightly different from the last.

 Darkseid wrote:
My hope would be that Forgeworld finally releses some corrupted versions of various heresy vehicles instead of doing uncountable legion specific models.

I do want them to go back and do the contemptors at least for the legions who missed out on them (Ultramarines) if not leviathans.

I do think a lot of people put too much emphasis on how things were done before.
This is a new way for GW with this and AoS, and the format has drastically changed.
Now they did say there wouldn’t be ‘editions’ any more and the rule set itself would evolve (kind of like AoS got, so we will get a 8th Ed 2.0 - obviously they’ll still want to put out new rulebooks, but I guess the changes will be less of a huge overhaul, wrapping in a couple of years worth of Chapter Approved etc).

 Kanluwen wrote:

GaroRobe wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
quick question isn't the shadow spear battle's aftermath mentioned in the Vigilius Defiant book?

I think the battle in Vigilius Defiant happens before Shadow Spear. Shadow Spear is sent in retaliation

Shadowspear is the event mentioned there.

What's to stop GW from having Shadowspear parts one and two? We know the first one ended with the escape of the Librarian. Maybe he's going to round up some more boys for round two and come back in Shadowspear II: Vanguard Harder!

 MajorWesJanson wrote:
When they come out with Emperors Children, that would be a good time for a battle box vs Eldar...

Don't be silly. You know Emprah's Kiddies will be versus Sisters.

Danny76 wrote:
I do think a lot of people put too much emphasis on how things were done before.
This is a new way for GW with this and AoS, and the format has drastically changed.
Now they did say there wouldn’t be ‘editions’ any more and the rule set itself would evolve (kind of like AoS got, so we will get a 8th Ed 2.0 - obviously they’ll still want to put out new rulebooks, but I guess the changes will be less of a huge overhaul, wrapping in a couple of years worth of Chapter Approved etc).

Just a thought, but if you have to put "edition" in quotation marks, any such statement by GW is useless. Especially so considering we have AoS 2nd ed now.

It's worth considering that from 1998 to 2017, that's five editions and almost two decades, GW released 3rd ed and four followups on the same foundation. Everyone still considers those editions, even though they are not too dissimilar from the magnitude of changes in the General's Handbook or Chapter Approved.

9th ed will come and GW will call it that*. As you say, they want to sell those rule books.


*Unless 8th ed is the narrative equivalent of the End Times, but drawn out more. Then we'll get Age of Emprah.

 Geifer wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

GaroRobe wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
quick question isn't the shadow spear battle's aftermath mentioned in the Vigilius Defiant book?

I think the battle in Vigilius Defiant happens before Shadow Spear. Shadow Spear is sent in retaliation

Shadowspear is the event mentioned there.

What's to stop GW from having Shadowspear parts one and two? We know the first one ended with the escape of the Librarian. Maybe he's going to round up some more boys for round two and come back in Shadowspear II: Vanguard Harder!

Because we also know that even though it "ended with the escape of the Librarian", we also know that they destroyed the Forge Infernus on Nemendghast.

Ah, that's hot, that's hot.

It’s happening, it’s really happening!

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Geifer wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

GaroRobe wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
quick question isn't the shadow spear battle's aftermath mentioned in the Vigilius Defiant book?

I think the battle in Vigilius Defiant happens before Shadow Spear. Shadow Spear is sent in retaliation

Shadowspear is the event mentioned there.

What's to stop GW from having Shadowspear parts one and two? We know the first one ended with the escape of the Librarian. Maybe he's going to round up some more boys for round two and come back in Shadowspear II: Vanguard Harder!

Because we also know that even though it "ended with the escape of the Librarian", we also know that they destroyed the Forge Infernus on Nemendghast.

"Crippled" the forge from photos I've seen. Does it actually say in the book that the strike force is named Shadowspear and explicitly created for exactly this one mission, no more, no less, or is that just your opinion?

 Togusa wrote:

 streetsamurai wrote:
At this point, I'm pretty sure Eldar aspects will bever get some plastic kits. Theyll focus on the Ynari and quietly and slowly phase the aspects out.

I'm surprised most seem to think Chaos terminators are a bad kit. I think it still look pretty great, but I'm all for an update (but I sincerly doubt we'll get a new kit for them).

Must say that this box really emphase one of the reason I hate the primaris so much. Now the average CSM is smaller and weaker than the generic good guy. So not Grim dark

Uh, the new CSM scupts from Death Guard, 1k Sons and BS fortress are all as tall as primaris....


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
But new sets of combo kits (Scorp/Dragon, Banshee/Hawk, Reaper/Spider)

That seems like a good way to separate them. That and a dual Windriders/Spears kit.

you could also have each kit have the option for Exarch/Phoenix Lord and save even more space.

Hmm, no they aren't, they're a tad smaller, and they have worse stats that the primaris (I'm mostly talking about the regular CSM)

 Geifer wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Geifer wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

GaroRobe wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
quick question isn't the shadow spear battle's aftermath mentioned in the Vigilius Defiant book?

I think the battle in Vigilius Defiant happens before Shadow Spear. Shadow Spear is sent in retaliation

Shadowspear is the event mentioned there.

What's to stop GW from having Shadowspear parts one and two? We know the first one ended with the escape of the Librarian. Maybe he's going to round up some more boys for round two and come back in Shadowspear II: Vanguard Harder!

Because we also know that even though it "ended with the escape of the Librarian", we also know that they destroyed the Forge Infernus on Nemendghast.

"Crippled" the forge from photos I've seen. Does it actually say in the book that the strike force is named Shadowspear and explicitly created for exactly this one mission, no more, no less, or is that just your opinion?

It does not say "explicitly created for this one mission"...but it should be obvious to anyone who heard the Nemendghast video for the Vanguard that this is the same deal.

I quoted the exact text earlier, but here goes again:

Vigilus Defiant page 122. Second Phase of the War of Beasts wrote:
7.230 Post: A Terrifying Find
On Nemendghast, an Ultramarines Vanguard strike force discovers the corrupted Black Legion flesh factory known as the Forge Infernus. Though heavily outnumbered by Daemonkin warriors led by the Master of Possession Vorash Soulflayer, the Ultramarines battle-brothers launch a sabotage operation, crippling the forge. Their victory comes at great cost; of the strike force, only the Librarian Maltis escapes the planet to warn Calgar of the threat lurking at the edge of the Vigilus System, with his fellow battle-brothers recorded as missing in action.

 Tiberius501 wrote:
Ah, that's hot, that's hot.

Terminator Powerfist?

 streetsamurai wrote:

 Togusa wrote:

 streetsamurai wrote:
At this point, I'm pretty sure Eldar aspects will bever get some plastic kits. Theyll focus on the Ynari and quietly and slowly phase the aspects out.

I'm surprised most seem to think Chaos terminators are a bad kit. I think it still look pretty great, but I'm all for an update (but I sincerly doubt we'll get a new kit for them).

Must say that this box really emphase one of the reason I hate the primaris so much. Now the average CSM is smaller and weaker than the generic good guy. So not Grim dark

Uh, the new CSM scupts from Death Guard, 1k Sons and BS fortress are all as tall as primaris....


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
But new sets of combo kits (Scorp/Dragon, Banshee/Hawk, Reaper/Spider)

That seems like a good way to separate them. That and a dual Windriders/Spears kit.

you could also have each kit have the option for Exarch/Phoenix Lord and save even more space.

Hmm, no they aren't, they're a tad smaller, and they have worse stats that the primaris (I'm mostly talking about the regular CSM)

Well, that can change. Let's see what this release fully has in it first before going into panic mode.

Definitely Terminator Powerfist. It has that little piece at the bend that only Terminator powerfists have. Regular marines don't have that feature.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Geifer wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Geifer wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

GaroRobe wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
quick question isn't the shadow spear battle's aftermath mentioned in the Vigilius Defiant book?

I think the battle in Vigilius Defiant happens before Shadow Spear. Shadow Spear is sent in retaliation

Shadowspear is the event mentioned there.

What's to stop GW from having Shadowspear parts one and two? We know the first one ended with the escape of the Librarian. Maybe he's going to round up some more boys for round two and come back in Shadowspear II: Vanguard Harder!

Because we also know that even though it "ended with the escape of the Librarian", we also know that they destroyed the Forge Infernus on Nemendghast.

"Crippled" the forge from photos I've seen. Does it actually say in the book that the strike force is named Shadowspear and explicitly created for exactly this one mission, no more, no less, or is that just your opinion?

It does not say "explicitly created for this one mission"...but it should be obvious to anyone who heard the Nemendghast video for the Vanguard that this is the same deal.

I quoted the exact text earlier, but here goes again:

Vigilus Defiant page 122. Second Phase of the War of Beasts wrote:
7.230 Post: A Terrifying Find
On Nemendghast, an Ultramarines Vanguard strike force discovers the corrupted Black Legion flesh factory known as the Forge Infernus. Though heavily outnumbered by Daemonkin warriors led by the Master of Possession Vorash Soulflayer, the Ultramarines battle-brothers launch a sabotage operation, crippling the forge. Their victory comes at great cost; of the strike force, only the Librarian Maltis escapes the planet to warn Calgar of the threat lurking at the edge of the Vigilus System, with his fellow battle-brothers recorded as missing in action.

Sorry, I don't see it that way. Yes, the video could relate to the blurb in Vigilus 1, but crippled is a non-word that could mean anything from temporarily out of action to destroyed. That's not proof that the battle box outcome has been spoiled.

Maltis' words are:

We came to this accursed world as saviours, but there is nothing left to save. Only a nightmare of flesh and metal, of dark industry and unholy creations. The forges of Nemendghast will fall...

We might have to agree to disagree here, but given that Urban Conquest spoiled the Vanguard Marines and the Venomcrawler? It looks like Shadowspear is supposed to be part of the "close" of the bits leading up to Abaddon showing up.

I am getting more and more excited about this. I really hope all these new things and potential new things (Oblits with more visible actual weapons, Chainglaive etc.) heralds a new codex whether for Black Legion or CSM altogether. It seems like there are too many things now to just be a few sheets in Vigilus 2 or Shadowspear.

This does now look like a full release for CSM, which is long overdue. I’ve occasionally thought about making a chaos army but been out of by the range. And by the rules, to be honest.

The Eldar and CSM ranges share a lot of the same problems. Each contains a ton of minis that have been designed by different people, using different techniques and materials, decades apart. The result is that they don’t really look that coherent together and they contain some pretty bad models.

I’d argue that CSM are the easier of the two to fix. It’s fairly simple to replace a bad plastic kit with a new, better one. Sooner or later they’re going to have to redo the aspect warriors in plastic though, and that’ll be tricky. Or maybe not too bad if they go for monopose, I guess.

For CSM the other issue is rules. Nobody actually uses chaos marines at the moment, as they’re pretty terrible. I really hope that changes somehow. Personally what I’d do is give all marines Primaris stats, as I think they have the profiles that marines always should have had. Just don’t worry too much about the size of them, or say that any oldmarines who are still kicking around are now tough enough to make up the difference.

I NEED RULES LEAKS WHERE ARE THEY

I think it's clear that if these are just new CSM and Terminator kits without rule updates, they aren't gonna sell anywhere near what they could. They either need to be new units of their own, or we need a new Codex. But would that be a new Codex CSM, or a Codex Black Legion, as was rumored was coming last summer?

A Codex BL seems pretty redundant with regular CSM, so I hope it's not that. But if it is a new codex, will they be able to make updates to the marine stat line to fix them? If they do, they'll have to immediately follow with a new codex SM to update them too. And also updates to the basic marine stats in BA/DA/SW/1ksons/DG. Considering the difficulty of all that, I wouldn't be surprised if these end up being new units.

I've said it elsewhere, but since this image keeps cropping up in multiple threads, I'll repeat myself.

That looks terrible.

It's far too "soft" and curvaceous. It looks like a metal mitten.

I prefer hard angles and sharp edges in my articulated metal fists.

 Tiberius501 wrote:
Ah, that's hot, that's hot.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
It’s happening, it’s really happening!

But *WHEN* is it happening? I've looked through this thread but can't quite find any info on when this might be available...