Shadow Spear / New Chaos Space Marines

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**Mantle**

Didn't they say they are new kits, not the full and final kits or either way? They could either be multipart or they could be monopose with multipart kits being released later like dark imperium

**JSG**

drbored wrote:Conflicted about the idea that the chaos marines are mono-pose. My hope is that means they'll get a full kit later, or that the kit inside the box IS the full kit, but the Shadowspear rules are much like they were in Forgebane: two specific forces fighting against each other.

If they are mono-pose, and they get another kit on top of that, that would make for a lot of great variety and conversion opportunities. But if they're mono-pose and DON'T get another kit, then we have the Chaos Cultist issue all over again where they never get a proper multi-part kit and we have the same models across the world.

Crimson wrote:
casvalremdeikun wrote:
We have zero confirmation that the models are monopose.

That locked chaos marine squad loadout strongly implies that.

Today "mono-pose" means something about weapon loadouts that don't affect the actual pose! I wonder what it'll mean tomorrow!

**streetsamurai**

Mantle wrote:
Didn't they say they are new kits, not the full and final kits or either way? They could either be multipart or they could be monopose with multipart kits being released later like dark imperium

You might be right. I might be misrebembering what they said

**Crimson**

Irbis wrote:

You mean the one that doesn't feature meltagun and heavy bolter, two weapons we know exist in the box seeing they were in promo video? That one?

Also, like I noted above, 14 SM vs 20 CSM when the latter have a tank and oblits makes me doubt the whole thing. Compared to Dark Imperium, CSM side is actually larger than DG was, while SM are actually much smaller, by 1.5 squads...

I can only comment on the rumours we have. They obviously can be false, and considering that they're somewhat disappointing, I hope they are. But it is also possible that models in this box are monopose and there is a separate multipart release for some units, such as the CSM, which would explain the pictures.

**JSG**

streetsamurai wrote:
Mantle wrote:
Didn't they say they are new kits, not the full and final kits or either way? They could either be multipart or they could be monopose with multipart kits being released later like dark imperium

You might be right. I might be misrebembering what they said

They said it's a battlebox like all the others they've done. The twist is this time it's all new stuff. All the other battleboxes have had the full kits. I didn't buy forgebane but tooth and claw, wrath and rapture and carrion empire all had full ktis.

**drakerocket**

Hrmm. A lot of that sounds pretty downer. I really hate it when they make 10 wound models since it means the bare minimum for a degrading profile. +1 to summon rolls is so feeble I don't even know why one would write a rule like that.

I don't deeply object to the stat line or buffs provided by the G. Possessed. It means you can stack up to a +2 strength on a variety of things. It will depend on how fast they are. But if they're not going to be a full unit, then they hecken better have <character> otherwise they'll be trash. 1 unit of 2 that splits? That's really weird and I hope is nonsense.

As for the master of possession, I really hope that isn't all he is. That will be very disappointing.

**Crimson**

It seems highly unlikely to me that if they would produced a new full multipart CSM kit, it would produce only one exact loadout for the squad. So either the rumours about the rules are wrong, or the CSM in the box are not a full multipart kit.

**Tiberius501**

streetsamurai wrote:
Mantle wrote:
Didn't they say they are new kits, not the full and final kits or either way? They could either be multipart or they could be monopose with multipart kits being released later like dark imperium

You might be right. I might be misrebembering what they said

The original reveal though showed a meltagun CSM. This dude said they're stuck with a plasma gun. So either this dude is trolling, or he's wrong about the plasma gun, or he's wrong about them being monopose.

Also in the original picture, the Lt has grav chute spines on his backpack, which weren't mentioned in his rules. And an apothecary in a scout squad? Why them specifically? And preventing a unit from shooting until last? That makes no sense and if it were to prevent overwatch, wouldn't it just say that the enemy unit can't shoot in overwatch? Also 2 possessed even though only one has featured in all the art and reveals and trailers?

I dunno, seems sort of fishy to me. I know I'm nitpicking at some little things, and GW do weird things sometimes, so I'm happy to admit I'm wrong, but I don't much believe this leak personally. Apologies to leaker if I'm wrong though.

**generalgrog**

I just want 3 of those spider tanks.....Spider tank...Spider tank..does whatever a Spider can...

GG

**Ysclyth**

Can Thousand Sons or Death Guard take any of the new chaos units?

**Elbows**

In the same way they could before, mainly separate detachments, but sharing a keyword at the bare minimum.

**Danny76**

Hotrod wrote:
So I got to look at the rules for Shadowspear early. I don't want to post the actual pictures of the rules, as to not trace them back to my source that sent them to me, but I do have some info.

Chaos side :
1 Master of possession : Basically just a sorceror that knows 2 powers. Has 5++ save for being daemonkin
2 Greater possessed : squads of 1-2, can separate after deploying together. S5, T5, W5, A5, give +1S to all friendly <Mark of Chaos> <Legion> Daemon units within 6".
1 Squad of Chaos Space Marines : 1 champion with axe, 4 with bolters, 3 with chainsword and bolt pistols, 1 with plasma gun, 1 with autocannon. No ability to switch out what's in there, so I assume they're monopose. The heavy bolter rumor picture might actually be for havocs? Not sure.
Obliterators : T5 now with 4 wounds. Fleshmetal guns are the same, but they now have Crushing Fists. S+1, AP-1, D3 damage. I assume there will be 3, since squad size is still 3.
1 Venomcrawler : 10 wounds, S6 (goes down to 5 and 4 per bracket). Armed with Excruciator Cannon (Assault D3, S+2, AP-2, D3 damage) and Eviscerating Claws (S+2, AP-3 and 3 damage), as well as Soulflayer Tendrils (S user, AP-2, 2 damage, does 2 additional attacks with this weapon). Blows up on a 5 and adds 1 to daemonic summoning rolls for Master of Possession within 6".

Space Marines :
Librarian in Phobos Armour : Librarian that can set up anywhere more than 9" away from enemy deployment zone and models. Also has a camo cloak, which adds 2 to saving throws in cover.
Captain in Phobos Armour : Same as Librarian, but is a captain. Armed with Master-Crafted Instigator Bolt-Carbine (what a mouthful). S4, AP-2, 2 damage, can target characters even if they're not the closest. Has combat knife too, same as Reivers.
Lieutenant in Phobos Armour : Same as above. Has Master-Crafted Occulus Bolt Carbine, S4, AP0, D2, units don't get cover saves against it. Also has combat knife.
Eliminator Squad : Squad of 3 . They have bolt sniper rifles, two different ammo types. Both are heavy 1, 36" and S4. Executionner rounds are AP-2, D3 damage and rolls of 6 do mortal wounds. Mortis rounds are AP-1, 1 damage, can target units that aren't visible, they don't get cover and add 2(!) to hit rolls with these rounds. Also have the abilities of the librarian.
Infiltrator Squads : Squad of 5, can have up to 10 with an Infiltrator Helix Adept. Armed with Marksman Bolt Carbine, Rapid Fire 1, S4, AP0, 1 damage. Each unmodified hit of 6 does an instant hit and wound. Helix Adept is basically an apothecary, it can heal or revive a model from the unit.
Suppressor Squad : Squad of 3, can deep strike with the grav-chutes. 12" movement. They have Accelerator Autocannons, heavy 2, S7, AP-2, 2 damage. Also, when they kill a model in a unit, that unit can't shoot until the end of the turn (so I guess it cancels out overwatch?).

That's all I have. I can give more specifics if anybody likes for statlines. I don't have points values, I'm afraid, but I do have power levels.

What capacity is your source involved at?
I understand people’s hesitation, as you’ve never posted rumours before about anything so it’s either a new source or you’ve just been quiet in the past.
I’m guessing not local to you, as Canada would be an odd place for it to leak out.

I’d just hope that should all your rumours pan out, you aren’t put off by naysayers,

**drbored**

Ysclyth wrote:
Can Thousand Sons or Death Guard take any of the new chaos units?

Most likely as allies, seeing as these units will likely not be in the Death Guard or Thousand Sons Codexes as they are already out, unless they add some little extra bit about other chaos factions being able to take them using the same points and datasheets, which I doubt?

Either way, we won't know for a while. There was another rumor that came up on 4chan. Not sure if it showed up here, but I'll post it just in case. It gives us some more information:

Spoiler:

**Hotrod**

Tiberius501 wrote:

But the Chaos marine in the background to the right has what looks like a melta gun, not a plasma.

Yeah, that threw me off as well. Perhaps the actual full kit comes with more options than what's in Shadowspear? I'm not sure what to say though, that's what it says on the datasheet. I'm as confounded as you are.

. Here's an image of the datasheet, actually. Just to show how strange it is

Danny76 wrote:

What capacity is your source involved at?
I understand people’s hesitation, as you’ve never posted rumours before about anything so it’s either a new source or you’ve just been quiet in the past.
I’m guessing not local to you, as Canada would be an odd place for it to leak out.

I’d just hope that should all your rumours pan out, you aren’t put off by naysayers,

I'm just a new source, I'm actually surprised that I got this information! It's relatively local, actually, but I really can't say more than that.

Omega-soul wrote:
Hotrod wrote:

That's all I have. I can give more specifics if anybody likes for statlines. I don't have points values, I'm afraid, but I do have power levels.

Does Obliterators have some changes to weapon? Does it still random profile shots or fixed weapons on model?

Actually, I just double checked and it seems that Obliterators have Assault 6 shots instead of Assault 4. But the profile is the same, S6+D3, APD3 and D3 damage.

**Togusa**

drbored wrote:
Ysclyth wrote:
Can Thousand Sons or Death Guard take any of the new chaos units?

Most likely as allies, seeing as these units will likely not be in the Death Guard or Thousand Sons Codexes as they are already out, unless they add some little extra bit about other chaos factions being able to take them using the same points and datasheets, which I doubt?

Either way, we won't know for a while. There was another rumor that came up on 4chan. Not sure if it showed up here, but I'll post it just in case. It gives us some more information:

Spoiler:

What does "Major Rework of the 40K setting" even mean?

**Haighus**

Hotrod wrote:
Tiberius501 wrote:

But the Chaos marine in the background to the right has what looks like a melta gun, not a plasma.

Yeah, that threw me off as well. Perhaps the actual full kit comes with more options than what's in Shadowspear? I'm not sure what to say though, that's what it says on the datasheet. I'm as confounded as you are.

. Here's an image of the datasheet, actually. Just to show how strange it is

My initial thoughts are this will be the "preset" loadout for the specific unit of CSMs fighting alongside the Master of Possession in that specific engagement, but will only be one available build of a multipart kit.

Past boxsets have had this, usually with named squad leaders.

**dienekes96**

Major rework is big enough to sound exciting and vague enough to be anything. Meaningless.

**GaroRobe**

So, suppressors have jump packs? Calling it now, the smoke canister rumor engine goes with them

**drbored**

dienekes96 wrote:
Major rework is big enough to sound exciting and vague enough to be anything. Meaningless.

Thanks, Captain Obv.

I'm more interested in the potential beastmen and traitor guardsmen kits that might come out, and have all of this rounded out before Easter, which is mid-April. If Shadowspear goes up for pre-order next week, then that'll be a solid month and a half of releases we'll get for Chaos and Primaris stuff. That's a lot of content.

**dienekes96**

I was promoted to Major Clearly last year.

**Yodhrin**

Togusa wrote:
Nostromodamus wrote:
All this new gak that Marines keep getting must be making the Fabricator General of Mars itching for another schism. Every new release is blatant tech heresy.

I dunno, one of the biggest turn offs for me in 40K fluff is the whole "hurr durr technology scary, but we use it all the time actually, but hurr durr its scary!"

I wouldn't mind seeing that part of 40K go into the past and get replaced with something more akin to the world in AoS. Grimderp is a product of a different time, perhaps its time to let it rest?

Yes, absolutely, and while we're at it the Administratum is a ludicrous concept, the Imperium should operate like a well-oiled machine with competent bureaucrats. And the Ecclesiarchy is just silly, societies that operate based on fear and repression stagnate, so they should rework the Imperium's religion to be more like the Quakers. Not to mention how horribly bigoted the Imperium are towards genetic minorities, it's monstrous that the differently-limbed and multi-headed receive such discriminatory treatment and it makes no sense to limit the potential of a significant minority of your society out of superstition and phobic fear, Mutant Rights Now!

I know the "muh Rogue Trader, muh Oldhammer" lot object, but it's really time to face up to reality; 40K is "grimderp", and pretty much always has been. Even when it was "funny" it was "grimderp". Even when it was Wardian-heroic it was "grimderp". Even now it's being transformed into a saturday morning cartoon, it's still "grimderp". If you dislike "grimderp", you pretty much dislike 40K.

**Saturmorn Carvilli**

If, and I do mean if, the CSM turn out to be monopose, I guess I will be happy with my box set and even more Chosen (monopose does seem to be their theme). I probably won't go halfsies with any player that just wants the loyalist stuff though.

I would hope that at very least GW would put out a full updated CSM kit in the future. Otherwise my Black Legion army isn't getting the reinforcements I would have hoped for.

**Crimson**

Haighus wrote:

My initial thoughts are this will be the "preset" loadout for the specific unit of CSMs fighting alongside the Master of Possession in that specific engagement, but will only be one available build of a multipart kit.

Past boxsets have had this, usually with named squad leaders.

Hmm... I guess it is possible. Let's hope you're right.

**Eldenfirefly**

Hotrod wrote:
Tiberius501 wrote:

But the Chaos marine in the background to the right has what looks like a melta gun, not a plasma.

Yeah, that threw me off as well. Perhaps the actual full kit comes with more options than what's in Shadowspear? I'm not sure what to say though, that's what it says on the datasheet. I'm as confounded as you are.

. Here's an image of the datasheet, actually. Just to show how strange it is

Danny76 wrote:

What capacity is your source involved at?
I understand people’s hesitation, as you’ve never posted rumours before about anything so it’s either a new source or you’ve just been quiet in the past.
I’m guessing not local to you, as Canada would be an odd place for it to leak out.

I’d just hope that should all your rumours pan out, you aren’t put off by naysayers,

I'm just a new source, I'm actually surprised that I got this information! It's relatively local, actually, but I really can't say more than that.

Omega-soul wrote:
Hotrod wrote:

That's all I have. I can give more specifics if anybody likes for statlines. I don't have points values, I'm afraid, but I do have power levels.

Does Obliterators have some changes to weapon? Does it still random profile shots or fixed weapons on model?

Actually, I just double checked and it seems that Obliterators have Assault 6 shots instead of Assault 4. But the profile is the same, S6+D3, APD3 and D3 damage.

OMG, Assault 6 ? Are you sure? That's a 50% increase in firepower on an already good Ranged unit. They really want to push these new Oblits models huh. If this is true, a squad of 3 will be putting out 18 shots! (And that's without counting Strategems). Btw, please tell me their cost remained the same. If that is so, Oblits just became far and away the best shooting unit CSM now have.

BTW, could I trouble you to tell me the number of attacks the Venomcrawler has? Does number of attack degrade? DOes it hit on a WS 4+ ? And other than the standard invul save 5++ I assume it has, what else does it have in terms of resiliencey? T8 ? 2+ save? 5+ FNP ? infernal regeneration?

BTW, can you give us any information about new possible formations?

**Drudge Dreadnought**

Hotrod wrote:
So I got to look at the rules for Shadowspear early. I don't want to post the actual pictures of the rules, as to not trace them back to my source that sent them to me, but I do have some info.

Chaos side :
1 Master of possession : Basically just a sorceror that knows 2 powers. Has 5++ save for being daemonkin
2 Greater possessed : squads of 1-2, can separate after deploying together. S5, T5, W5, A5, give +1S to all friendly <Mark of Chaos> <Legion> Daemon units within 6".
1 Squad of Chaos Space Marines : 1 champion with axe, 4 with bolters, 3 with chainsword and bolt pistols, 1 with plasma gun, 1 with autocannon. No ability to switch out what's in there, so I assume they're monopose. The heavy bolter rumor picture might actually be for havocs? Not sure.
Obliterators : T5 now with 4 wounds. Fleshmetal guns are the same, but they now have Crushing Fists. S+1, AP-1, D3 damage. I assume there will be 3, since squad size is still 3.
1 Venomcrawler : 10 wounds, S6 (goes down to 5 and 4 per bracket). Armed with Excruciator Cannon (Assault D3, S+2, AP-2, D3 damage) and Eviscerating Claws (S+2, AP-3 and 3 damage), as well as Soulflayer Tendrils (S user, AP-2, 2 damage, does 2 additional attacks with this weapon). Blows up on a 5 and adds 1 to daemonic summoning rolls for Master of Possession within 6".

Space Marines :
Librarian in Phobos Armour : Librarian that can set up anywhere more than 9" away from enemy deployment zone and models. Also has a camo cloak, which adds 2 to saving throws in cover.
Captain in Phobos Armour : Same as Librarian, but is a captain. Armed with Master-Crafted Instigator Bolt-Carbine (what a mouthful). S4, AP-2, 2 damage, can target characters even if they're not the closest. Has combat knife too, same as Reivers.
Lieutenant in Phobos Armour : Same as above. Has Master-Crafted Occulus Bolt Carbine, S4, AP0, D2, units don't get cover saves against it. Also has combat knife.
Eliminator Squad : Squad of 3 . They have bolt sniper rifles, two different ammo types. Both are heavy 1, 36" and S4. Executionner rounds are AP-2, D3 damage and rolls of 6 do mortal wounds. Mortis rounds are AP-1, 1 damage, can target units that aren't visible, they don't get cover and add 2(!) to hit rolls with these rounds. Also have the abilities of the librarian.
Infiltrator Squads : Squad of 5, can have up to 10 with an Infiltrator Helix Adept. Armed with Marksman Bolt Carbine, Rapid Fire 1, S4, AP0, 1 damage. Each unmodified hit of 6 does an instant hit and wound. Helix Adept is basically an apothecary, it can heal or revive a model from the unit.
Suppressor Squad : Squad of 3, can deep strike with the grav-chutes. 12" movement. They have Accelerator Autocannons, heavy 2, S7, AP-2, 2 damage. Also, when they kill a model in a unit, that unit can't shoot until the end of the turn (so I guess it cancels out overwatch?).

That's all I have. I can give more specifics if anybody likes for statlines. I don't have points values, I'm afraid, but I do have power levels.

Pretty interesting stuff.
I was hoping the Master of Possession would have some new powers or an aura or something? How it is different from a regular sorcerer? It'll have to be pretty decent to be worth losing the jump pack for.
If the Greater Possessed have Character, they could actually be pretty nasty. If not, then maybe they could work coming out of a rhino, but i won't have high hopes. They'd better be pretty cheap to compete with just using Dark Apostles or Exalted champs. Re-rolls benefit a lot more stuff than their strength aura.
The usefulness of the Venomcrawler is gonna come down to its points really. It's less specialized than the forge fiends. +1 to daemonic summoning would be good if daemonic summoning was good, but it's not enough to make it attractive to use in general (especially since you need to be Word Bearers, Thousand Sons, or DG to have the summoning strat.)

Jump Pack and Terminator Librarians/captains can already deepstrike, so the Phobos one isn't doing much that's new except for the enhanced cover save. I guess it ought to be cheaper than jump pack or TDA?
Infiltrator Squads might be decent, but looks like they've been cursed with the typical bolter statline. Even with auto wounding on 6's, they just aren't going to do much. And they don't have the intercessor's ap -1. Maybe if they're cheaper than Intercessors? They'd have to be like 14pts to be worthwhile offensively. The Helix Adept may help defensively at least.
I don't really see what the use role for deepstriking autocannons is. It's another case of paying for mobility that you don't really need. If they ignore the move and shoot penalty to hit with heavy weapons then it doesn't hurt as much, but you're still gonna pay for it. I do like the weapon profile though. Preventing overwatch is a cool mechanic, but won't have much use because who even does CC with marines? Maybe it can help get the souped in Smash Captain in. But these things will generally be busy shooting at vehicles, not infantry.

Overall it sounds like nice units, but continuing the current design problems. Which isn't a surprise and is probably fine. Marines need to be uplifted in general, not just by power creeping their new units.

**Eldenfirefly**

Based on what he says, Oblits fleshmetal guns just became 6 shots, they got a boost in toughness to T5, and their melee has become decent now. If they stayed the same in points... they are going to be a force to be reckoned with.

**Galas**

I'm pretty sure all the miniatures in this kit will be monopose and basically a pseudo starter set followed by multipart kits for the Chaos Marines and Primaris ones.

I could see the Chaos Tick remaining monopose or receiving a full kit like the Plague Drone.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Based on what he says, Oblits fleshmetal guns just became 6 shots, they got a boost in toughness to T5, and their melee has become decent now. If they stayed the same in points... they are going to be a force to be reckoned with.

I'm sure they will be more expensive. But they HAD to increase their damage output, because if they became more expensive to justify the increase in toughness, wounds and meele profile with the same Assault 4 profile, they would actually be nerfed in their shooting offensive output.

**Hulksmash**

18 shots up to 36 with their wound profile would actually be right. Look at Kastellans. 110pts per 9/18 shots. That's with 6 wounds and a 3+/5++. Two of them are 220. 65pts per Oblit is just inline with other units that are out there.

**BrianDavion**

Crimson wrote:
It seems highly unlikely to me that if they would produced a new full multipart CSM kit, it would produce only one exact loadout for the squad. So either the rumours about the rules are wrong, or the CSM in the box are not a full multipart kit.

or they've only given us datasheets for a suggested loadout in the box

**NinthMusketeer**

Yodhrin wrote:
Togusa wrote:
Nostromodamus wrote:
All this new gak that Marines keep getting must be making the Fabricator General of Mars itching for another schism. Every new release is blatant tech heresy.

I dunno, one of the biggest turn offs for me in 40K fluff is the whole "hurr durr technology scary, but we use it all the time actually, but hurr durr its scary!"

I wouldn't mind seeing that part of 40K go into the past and get replaced with something more akin to the world in AoS. Grimderp is a product of a different time, perhaps its time to let it rest?

Yes, absolutely, and while we're at it the Administratum is a ludicrous concept, the Imperium should operate like a well-oiled machine with competent bureaucrats. And the Ecclesiarchy is just silly, societies that operate based on fear and repression stagnate, so they should rework the Imperium's religion to be more like the Quakers. Not to mention how horribly bigoted the Imperium are towards genetic minorities, it's monstrous that the differently-limbed and multi-headed receive such discriminatory treatment and it makes no sense to limit the potential of a significant minority of your society out of superstition and phobic fear, Mutant Rights Now!

I know the "muh Rogue Trader, muh Oldhammer" lot object, but it's really time to face up to reality; 40K is "grimderp", and pretty much always has been. Even when it was "funny" it was "grimderp". Even when it was Wardian-heroic it was "grimderp". Even now it's being transformed into a saturday morning cartoon, it's still "grimderp". If you dislike "grimderp", you pretty much dislike 40K.

Well in real life the bigger a government gets the more bloated and inefficient it's beurocracy tends to be, societies run off repression do tend to stagnate and stagnation is the very core of what the Imperium is, and societies like that tend to be extremely discrimatory towards minorities even when those minorities don't pose a legitimate threat of Chaos/xeno corruption. So while there are countless unrealistic elements of the setting it would be difficult to pick put any that are more realistic than what you have there, but I am entirely unsure as to if that was the point...?