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 Mr Morden wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Pandabeer wrote:

 Galas wrote:
If Dark Angels can't have all this new units (And why shouldn't they?) then thats it for me, I won't be buying the box.

Well, GW already put up the middle finger to DW/BA/DA/DW by denying them access to the Indomitus Crusaders specialist detachment, so I'm worried they might do it again.

If they do that again because of "chapter diversity" they better start hurrying up with Primaris Thunderwolf Cavalry, Death Company and Ravenwing Black Knights

It's almost as though consolidation for Dark Angels and Blood Angels would be a good thing...

Or that having an entire Codex for just a single Chapter (when other First Founding chapters don't even get a model) plus vast numbers of super special models makes you entitled and massively clogs up the entire production scedule.

Having the new stealth Marines as Raven Guard might have been nice.

I'm sure we'll see plenty of people painting them as ravenguard.

GW paints all their marines as ultramarines. They explained that they do this so you can see all the range in the same colours. I'm not a fan of ultramarines but that does make sense.

I'm considering doing my infiltrators in a camo scheme with their crimson fist colours only used quite sparingly. That might look rubbish but I think it could work.

the_scotsman wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

Pandabeer wrote:
So... anyone know whether SW/BA/DA/DW will be able to take Vanguard Marines without having to put them into an allied detachment from Codex SM? I'm kind of fearing for the Keen Senses Suppressors I just thought up

They've said on Facebook that all Chapters will have access to them, although I'm not 100% sure that included DW.

Which is funny, because DW is probably the only marine subfaction that can actually successfully use the flying whackadoodle autocannon guys.

Because infantry bodies holding heavy weapons tends to only work if you can have a couple chaff bodies standing in front of the unit tanking hits, and the "tactical genius" of primaris marines prevents them from doing any of that nonsense. Putting them in a kill team alongside Intercessors (who can Beta Bolters all day long at 36" SIA) seems like the only way to make them even remotely worth using.

Otherwise, it's like "OK, you can deep strike them and eat a -1 to hit, or you can start them on the table and guess what I'm shooting the pants off of turn 1?"

Space Wolves can use them very well as well. You can negate the -1 to hit on deepstriking with the Keen Senses stratagem and they provide easy Overwatch negation (Doing it with Reivers is a hassle because I thought their shock grenade is only 6" range?), something that has really hurt SW up till now. Really nice to have before you send your Smash Captain or Wulfen after a bunch of Hellblasters or Obliterators.

How are people thinking that GW aren't giving these new marines to DA etc. They already confirmed basically everything but deathwatch can take them but are reluctant on saying if deathwatch can or not.

Danny76 wrote:
That doesn’t make a difference?
Halving it at £95 was better than halving £105..
I think that’s why people are still unhappy at the increase...

This. Simple math, really. Not sure how could anyone argue against it.

It's supposed to be a battle box, but unlike all the others it has ETB kits and they have reaised the price.

It has ETB kits like the DI box, ut unlike DI it doesn't have the bigass book, and the price is higher.

When we thought it was a regular box ala Forgebane I had every intention of buying two. After the reveals and the price increase I might buy half.

It's that simple. GW have the right to put the price they damn like to anything they sell. I have the right to tell them "ahahaha nope" whenever I damn well please.

As both a SM (Salamanders) and CSM (World Eaters)-player, I found this box quite appealing at first glance. Now when I've read (most) of the rules, I'd break it down as:

- Captain in Phobos Armour:
Model is pretty meh, and so are his rules/wargear. Did he forget his powersword back at the monastery?
I can see the appeal in a mass-infiltrate list so his aura can be where it's needed, but other than that? Pass.

- Lieutenant in Phobos Armour:
Model is decent, but his rules and wargear are pretty meh. A knife fighter without a Combat Knife? Would he be too OP with 5 S4 AP- attacks?

- Librarian in Phobos Armour:
One of the best mini's I've seen in some time.
Unlike his two HQ-brethren, the Librarian also remembered to bring an actual weapon to the battle. Looking forward to seeing the Obscuration-discipline in all it's glory. It simply can't be worse than our current discipline.

- Infiltrators:
Solid mini's. Rules look good and unique.
Can't wait to try them out.

- Suppressor:
Would look much better if they just stood on the ground, I'm no fan of the peg. Suppressing fire seems like a gimmick, mainly because it's a waste to shoot what's essentially a anti-tank gun against the things you want to suppress (infantry) in the first place.

- Eliminators:
Great mini's. Rules look very promising. Wish they could be more than 3 in a squad, but I guess one can simply take more than one squad if they feel the need to. Mortis Rounds look really weird though. "Here's a lousy ammo-type if you find yourself staring into a wall. Have fun."

- - - -

- Master of Possession:
Don't really like the mini, I'd probably remove the flames.
Rite of Possession looks like it's gonna need a day 1 errata, because right now that rule basically only causes the MoP himself to PotW, and that can't be the intent. Looking forward to seeing what the Malefic discipline brings to the table though.

- Venomcrawler:
Jury is out on the mini itself, this is something I need to see in the flesh. Rules are pretty lackluster though, WS/BS 4+ really hurts both it's shooting and close combat prowess. Without a Master of Possession in your list, this walker feels overpriced.

- Greater Possessed:
A unit that no one asked for. These are essentially Khorne Heralds +1. Great if you have plans for the Locus, meh if you don't. Not a big fan of the minis though.

- Obliterators:
New plastic Oblits? Yay! Random stats on their guns? Yay?
6 Power/120 points per model? WTF...I mean Nay!
I'm sorry, but in what world is an Obliterator, even with their improved stats, worth as much as a Helbrute or even a Vindicator?

- Chaos Marines.
I mean, they're chaos marines. Model's look good, but I already have a ton painted and ready to go.

Overall, I'd say that Chaos got the short end of the stick in this box.
Most of the Primaris-stuff seems like a solid addition to my existing army.
Most of the CSM-stuff is either stuff I don't need or stuff that seems overpriced for what it does.

I have a feeling when eliminators get a full release they'll go to 3-6 in a squad maybe.
GW has also hinted at the full kits having weapon options so the suppressors and infiltrators might have more options later on.

I'm surely going to get the imperium half ot the box.
The 3 characters alone cost more than the 70 euros i will pay at full price. I get all the other marines and the minidex as a bonus.

It may cost more than dark vengeance, but it is still a really good deal.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
It's almost as though consolidation for Dark Angels and Blood Angels would be a good thing...

Mr Morden wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Pandabeer wrote:

 Galas wrote:
If Dark Angels can't have all this new units (And why shouldn't they?) then thats it for me, I won't be buying the box.

Well, GW already put up the middle finger to DW/BA/DA/DW by denying them access to the Indomitus Crusaders specialist detachment, so I'm worried they might do it again.

If they do that again because of "chapter diversity" they better start hurrying up with Primaris Thunderwolf Cavalry, Death Company and Ravenwing Black Knights

It's almost as though consolidation for Dark Angels and Blood Angels would be a good thing...

Or that having an entire Codex for just a single Chapter (when other First Founding chapters don't even get a model) plus vast numbers of super special models makes you entitled and massively clogs up the entire production scedule.

Having the new stealth Marines as Raven Guard might have been nice.

Ultras suck at being the "poster boys", SW,DA,BA get waaaayyyyyyy too much attention while other 1st founding get scheiss'd on.

Nice to see that the helmet on the belt is actually easy to take off on the Cap.

Definitely a negative on the price bump w/ easy to build kits. That's unfortunate.

I want both sides, as it will add to my plague marine / black legion armies.

If you have both sets you have pretty good options overall.

 Boss Salvage wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
It's almost as though consolidation for Dark Angels and Blood Angels would be a good thing...

Well played, good sir or madam.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mr Morden wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Pandabeer wrote:

 Galas wrote:
If Dark Angels can't have all this new units (And why shouldn't they?) then thats it for me, I won't be buying the box.

Well, GW already put up the middle finger to DW/BA/DA/DW by denying them access to the Indomitus Crusaders specialist detachment, so I'm worried they might do it again.

If they do that again because of "chapter diversity" they better start hurrying up with Primaris Thunderwolf Cavalry, Death Company and Ravenwing Black Knights

It's almost as though consolidation for Dark Angels and Blood Angels would be a good thing...

Or that having an entire Codex for just a single Chapter (when other First Founding chapters don't even get a model) plus vast numbers of super special models makes you entitled and massively clogs up the entire production scedule.

Having the new stealth Marines as Raven Guard might have been nice.

Sorry, but nobody needs that many unique entries for units. 3-4 per Chapter would suffice.

Hell, I would be for consolidating Space Wolves too but they're way too out there with the differences.

Any news on powers?

Or is there there any stock behind this new codex rumor?

Boss Salvage wrote:

 aka_mythos wrote:

StarFyre wrote:is the new chaos primaris scaled?

There is nothing saying anything is chaos primaris. All the marines however are likely the new slightly larger size we started seeing with Deathwatch, and continuing with Thousand Sons, Death Guard, and in Blackstone Fortress.

Quite certain StarFyre meant "Is the new Chaos primaris-scaled?" as in "Are the new Chaos Space Marines upscaled to match Primaris Space Marines?" Y'all have answered their question but just defending that I don't think Fyre assumed Chaos Primaris are a thing either

The problem with assuming that is that Deathwatch, Thousand Sons, Death Guard, and Black Stone Fortress Chaos are all still shorter than Primaris. There is as much height difference between those minis and primaris, as there are between those minis and the older sized marines. Its a couple millimeters both ways.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Boss Salvage wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
It's almost as though consolidation for Dark Angels and Blood Angels would be a good thing...

Well played, good sir or madam.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mr Morden wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Pandabeer wrote:

 Galas wrote:
If Dark Angels can't have all this new units (And why shouldn't they?) then thats it for me, I won't be buying the box.

Well, GW already put up the middle finger to DW/BA/DA/DW by denying them access to the Indomitus Crusaders specialist detachment, so I'm worried they might do it again.

If they do that again because of "chapter diversity" they better start hurrying up with Primaris Thunderwolf Cavalry, Death Company and Ravenwing Black Knights

It's almost as though consolidation for Dark Angels and Blood Angels would be a good thing...

Or that having an entire Codex for just a single Chapter (when other First Founding chapters don't even get a model) plus vast numbers of super special models makes you entitled and massively clogs up the entire production scedule.

Having the new stealth Marines as Raven Guard might have been nice.

Sorry, but nobody needs that many unique entries for units. 3-4 per Chapter would suffice.

Hell, I would be for consolidating Space Wolves too but they're way too out there with the differences.

Conversation for another thread (again) but there are very if any few units that are in the Wolves Codex that would not be present in aleast one other Chapter - I can't think of a single one in fact.

If Raven Guard (and others) would be the sneaky marines - who would be the best fit for the SAMAS Marines?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Hell, I would be for consolidating Space Wolves too but they're way too out there with the differences.

Just have two? Codex compliant Chapters, and Codex uncompliant. The latter would include unique SW and BT units, the former would have the unique BA and DA units.

I'm not sure about DW and GK. Maybe a third Inquisitorial Marine Codex.

honestly with the deathwatch they should just be a supplement army with no troop choices. They should be the elites of the chapter. They should not be a solo army.

 Mr Morden wrote:


If Raven Guard (and others) would be the sneaky marines - who would be the best fit for the SAMAS Marines?

WD Crimson Fists? Run the 3 man minimum so you are almost always out numbered, have 2+ to hit standing still and 3+ after moving.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

If Raven Guard (and others) would be the sneaky marines - who would be the best fit for the SAMAS Marines?

WD Crimson Fists? Run the 3 man minimum so you are almost always out numbered, have 2+ to hit standing still and 3+ after moving.

I'd say Salamanders, you'll statistically fail to hit or wound once, which if fixed by their CT. The unit also fits their dragon theme pretty well...

 Asherian Command wrote:
honestly with the deathwatch they should just be a supplement army with no troop choices. They should be the elites of the chapter. They should not be a solo army.

Yup, because they always operate with others and totally not undertake 95% of missions on their own

What next, delete all the various Codex:SM books and make Tactical Squad elite choice in IG?

Yup, because they always operate with others and totally not undertake 95% of missions on their own

Have you ever read any of the deathwatch lore? They are a kill team. Not mass army deployment, they deploy with others when they need strength.

Deathwatch are far too spread out, they operate at most at squads of 5 members, sometimes on rare ocassion 10. This has not changed at all since any edition, even in their current codex. They only deploy at least 30 marines on very rare ocassions. If we want marines to be good overall we get rid of deathwatch because it is damaging the pool for space marine armies.

There is no reason currently or competitively not to take deathwatch over a normal squad other than points. Deathwatch intercessors have a -1 ap in edition to their damage they already deal.

It currently destroys any competitiveness that the other armies can have, until then get rid of them and just make an elite choice, and then they will be fine. They should never have been a solo army, exactly like the tempestus scions, who I agree should not have had their solo codex.

Does anyone knows how many points per faction in the box?

 NAVARRO wrote:
Does anyone knows how many points per faction in the box?

no points costs have leaked yet. but given every boxed set in the past chances are the space marines will out point chaos.

 Asherian Command wrote:

Have you ever read any of the deathwatch lore? They are a kill team. Not mass army deployment, they deploy with others when they need strength.

Deathwatch are far too spread out, they operate at most at squads of 5 members, sometimes on rare ocassion 10. This has not changed at all since any edition, even in their current codex. They only deploy at least 30 marines on very rare ocassions. If we want marines to be good overall we get rid of deathwatch because it is damaging the pool for space marine armies.

There is no reason currently or competitively not to take deathwatch over a normal squad other than points. Deathwatch intercessors have a -1 ap in edition to their damage they already deal.

It currently destroys any competitiveness that the other armies can have, until then get rid of them and just make an elite choice, and then they will be fine. They should never have been a solo army, exactly like the tempestus scions, who I agree should not have had their solo codex.

This is even more true to the Grey Knights, and they're an independent army too. That too was a mistake, there should have been just an Inquisition codex, with both the DW an GK forming a small part of it.

Anyway, I'm pretty sure that these new units won't get DW rules initially. The FB team flat out said that the SW, DA, and BA could use these units, but about DW they were like 'we are not sure...' DW might get these units only when the multiparts are released, and thus allow giving them the DW shoulderpads. Also, I really wouldn't expect Eliminators to get the SIA on top of their own ammo.

With all these special bolters the SIA is kinda awkward anyway. It is basically the same thing.

BrianDavion wrote:

 NAVARRO wrote:
Does anyone knows how many points per faction in the box?

no points costs have leaked yet. but given every boxed set in the past chances are the space marines will out point chaos.

Cheers.
GW is getting quite good at containing the leaks these days…

 Crimson wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

Have you ever read any of the deathwatch lore? They are a kill team. Not mass army deployment, they deploy with others when they need strength.

Deathwatch are far too spread out, they operate at most at squads of 5 members, sometimes on rare ocassion 10. This has not changed at all since any edition, even in their current codex. They only deploy at least 30 marines on very rare ocassions. If we want marines to be good overall we get rid of deathwatch because it is damaging the pool for space marine armies.

There is no reason currently or competitively not to take deathwatch over a normal squad other than points. Deathwatch intercessors have a -1 ap in edition to their damage they already deal.

It currently destroys any competitiveness that the other armies can have, until then get rid of them and just make an elite choice, and then they will be fine. They should never have been a solo army, exactly like the tempestus scions, who I agree should not have had their solo codex.

This is even more true to the Grey Knights, and they're an independent army too. That too was a mistake, there shuld hev been just an Inquisition codex, with both the DW an GK forming a small part of it.

Anyway, I'm pretty sure that these new units won't get DW rules initially. The FB team flat out said that the SW, DA, and BA could use these units, but about DW they were like 'we are not sure...' DW might get these units only when the multiparts are released, and thus allow giving them the DW shoulderpads. Also, I really wouldn't expect Eliminators to get the SIA on top of their own ammo.

With all these special bolters the SIA is kinda awkward anyway. It is basically the same thing.

I am glad people agree on that.

BUt i really hope we don't, infilitrators are already powerful enough just by ruleswise, giving them special ammunition in addition to deathwatch rules is asinine and insane.

Vox cast ep about Shadow Spear with a focus on the Vanguard side.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSs6Wx9_haA

I could listen to Jes talk about his work like this all day Cant wait to see what else he has cooked up for the Primaris line.

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

Have you ever read any of the deathwatch lore? They are a kill team. Not mass army deployment, they deploy with others when they need strength.

Deathwatch are far too spread out, they operate at most at squads of 5 members, sometimes on rare ocassion 10. This has not changed at all since any edition, even in their current codex. They only deploy at least 30 marines on very rare ocassions. If we want marines to be good overall we get rid of deathwatch because it is damaging the pool for space marine armies.

There is no reason currently or competitively not to take deathwatch over a normal squad other than points. Deathwatch intercessors have a -1 ap in edition to their damage they already deal.

It currently destroys any competitiveness that the other armies can have, until then get rid of them and just make an elite choice, and then they will be fine. They should never have been a solo army, exactly like the tempestus scions, who I agree should not have had their solo codex.

This is even more true to the Grey Knights, and they're an independent army too. That too was a mistake, there shuld hev been just an Inquisition codex, with both the DW an GK forming a small part of it.

Anyway, I'm pretty sure that these new units won't get DW rules initially. The FB team flat out said that the SW, DA, and BA could use these units, but about DW they were like 'we are not sure...' DW might get these units only when the multiparts are released, and thus allow giving them the DW shoulderpads. Also, I really wouldn't expect Eliminators to get the SIA on top of their own ammo.

With all these special bolters the SIA is kinda awkward anyway. It is basically the same thing.

I am glad people agree on that.

BUt i really hope we don't, infilitrators are already powerful enough just by ruleswise, giving them special ammunition in addition to deathwatch rules is asinine and insane.

But Deathwatch is barely even viable...

Lol at asinine and insane. I'm sorry but that's just friggin hilarious.

Look, I don't care too much if DW doesn't get them. They're doing "okay" with what they have anyway. But "asinine and insane" is the reaction to the possibility that DW could use infiltrators? REALLY?

Ah hysteria that Deathwatch might get something nice. Good times.