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I was hoping we would see something for Death Guard in Vigilus but I guess no love for Papa.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
I was hoping we would see something for Death Guard in Vigilus but I guess no love for Papa.

Off all the csm out there, DG should get even more stuff?!?
No.

I like how CSM pay 1 cp and have all bonus rules right there, while primaris pay 1 cp then get to pay 1 cp for each unit to actually get bonus rules. Who should be bitter here, again?

I'd not be that suprised if DG and 1K sons got a specialist detachment TBH. but they're not getting a new CODEX which is whats being shown off here

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
I was hoping we would see something for Death Guard in Vigilus but I guess no love for Papa.

Off all the csm out there, DG should get even more stuff?!?
No.

Seeing as DG is the good CSM faction (or the better one)...yes yes they should. Someone has to be trying to win for Chaos

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
I was hoping we would see something for Death Guard in Vigilus but I guess no love for Papa.

I am surprised that they are not getting the standard Formation and related stuff? Even more new models woud however be greedy when so many have so few......

I guess tomorrows Night Lords preview will feature Raptors and Warp Talons; no new units.

 Darkseid wrote:
I guess tomorrows Night Lords preview will feature Raptors and Warp Talons; no new units.

And it'll be worded like

"Raptors are already known to be a DEVASTATING terror assault unit in the game of warhammer 40,000 which we have absolutely played this edition of, like, hundreds of times, and you may think with the awesome HAARKON WORLD-

what was it steve?

WORLDCLAIMER leading them, how could Raptors be any more amazing??

Well, hold on to your updated kit we have definitely sold more than four of.

This book gives them a stratagem, which for a mere 3cp, grants them

rerolls.

to hit.

in melee combat."

 Irbis wrote:
I like how CSM pay 1 cp and have all bonus rules right there, while primaris pay 1 cp then get to pay 1 cp for each unit to actually get bonus rules. Who should be bitter here, again?

Veteran Intercessors get a bonus of +1 A +1 LD. The other detachments don't give out a bonus intrinsically.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Darkseid wrote:
I guess tomorrows Night Lords preview will feature Raptors and Warp Talons; no new units.

And it'll be worded like

"Raptors are already known to be a DEVASTATING terror assault unit in the game of warhammer 40,000 which we have absolutely played this edition of, like, hundreds of times, and you may think with the awesome HAARKON WORLD-

what was it steve?

WORLDCLAIMER leading them, how could Raptors be any more amazing??

Well, hold on to your updated kit we have definitely sold more than four of.

This book gives them a stratagem, which for a mere 3cp, grants them

rerolls.

to hit.

in melee combat."

Oh God no stoooooop it's too real

the_scotsman wrote:
Well, hold on to your updated kit we have definitely sold more than four of.

Hey now, the raptor box has been the go-to for DV Chosen conversion bits since it came out

Also isn't WORLDCLAIMER a Black Legion guy? And he only does raptors? So Night Lords = warp talons? ALSO OBLITERATORS BECAUSE SCREW IT NEW MODELS

EDIT: Did the raptor/talons box really come out in 2013, or earlier? Time flies. Or jumps, in this case.

Pandabeer wrote:

 Red_Five wrote:

 Latro_ wrote:
i missed this:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/03/18/heretic-astartes-focus-index/

next are:
Night Lords
The Word Bearers
World Eaters
Emperor’s Children
Alpha Legion
Renegades

I did not think they were going to keep Emperor's Children and World Eaters in the book... Makes me think the Slaanesh and Khorne books will not be themed around the Legion and instead they will have their own unique faction identity (like Khorne Daemonkin in 7th edition).

If they are coming out at all. Khorne just got a big AoS release and while some mini's got updated rules and we got the skull altar thingie, no WE/ Khorne book. Can't imagine Slaanesh being any different. And with WE and EC in the Vigilus Ablaze book Khorne and Slaanesh books are probably at the very least 1-2 years off (as in planned in the very long term or no plans yet).

I think it makes it more likely about WE getting something with all the stuff for them already surely.
If they already have a load of stuff written in Vigilus, it’s already there and probably in the works for WE anyway.

So I’d say this year rather than 1-2 years.
At least for them or EC

But who knows.

Danny76 wrote:

I think it makes it more likely about WE getting something with all the stuff for them already surely.
If they already have a load of stuff written in Vigilus, it’s already there and probably in the works for WE anyway.

So I’d say this year rather than 1-2 years.
At least for them or EC

But who knows.

Don't get my hopes up

Old Berserker miniatures will look very out of place with all the new stuff being released. That is my only rationale for GW actually updating Berserkers as well.

 MasterSlowPoke wrote:

 Irbis wrote:
I like how CSM pay 1 cp and have all bonus rules right there, while primaris pay 1 cp then get to pay 1 cp for each unit to actually get bonus rules. Who should be bitter here, again?

Veteran Intercessors get a bonus of +1 A +1 LD. The other detachments don't give out a bonus intrinsically.

I wouldn't call it intrinsic seeing as you gotta pay a CP to do that for each squad.

Remember guys, the World Eaters and Emperor's Children are part of this Faction Focus because they are getting formations/stuff in Vigilus Ablaze. It has a lot less to do with the Codex and more to do with the Campaign Book.

I'm sure in the next 5 years or so we'll finally get a World Eaters and Emperor's Children Codex.

Ugh.. but yeah, GW seems so out of touch with what Chaos players actually want it's just tragic. How hard can it be to throw us a bone and give things like Iron Warriors and Night Lords a usable legion trait?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 MasterSlowPoke wrote:

 Irbis wrote:
I like how CSM pay 1 cp and have all bonus rules right there, while primaris pay 1 cp then get to pay 1 cp for each unit to actually get bonus rules. Who should be bitter here, again?

Veteran Intercessors get a bonus of +1 A +1 LD. The other detachments don't give out a bonus intrinsically.

I wouldn't call it intrinsic seeing as you gotta pay a CP to do that for each squad.

Isn;t that the point - if you spend a CP you get actual physical bonuses - the CSM ones allow those units to be buffed but don;t boost stats?

drbored wrote:
Ugh.. but yeah, GW seems so out of touch with what Chaos players actually want it's just tragic. How hard can it be to throw us a bone and give things like Iron Warriors and Night Lords a usable legion trait?

More like out of touch with the rules. A couple of recent tactics / army building articles would support that.

To be fair; CSM support improved drastically since the end of the 7th edition and has never been higher (at least from a volume point of view, not necessary quality).

 Darkseid wrote:
To be fair; CSM support improved drastically since the end of the 7th edition and has never been higher (at least from a volume point of view, not necessary quality).

It might be nostalgia talking, but the old Index Astartes days were IMHO the best C/SM support there's been. While the game has become more sophisticated since then, the reskinned units (that they're still using), fleshing out the army concepts, and introduction of specialist/variant squads was pretty amazing. I get that there's more breadth these days (what with DG/TS getting their own books), but there are weird holes in them, and I still think that the IA days had some of the best results, regarding ambition, scope, and minor modifications to redefine an army (which is admittedly a personal preference).

How big is the Vencomcrawler's base?

 Red_Five wrote:
How big is the Vencomcrawler's base?

100mm

drbored wrote:
How hard can it be to throw us a bone and give things like Iron Warriors and Night Lords a usable legion trait?

With the growing popularity of cover save buffing in the GW design team, after the backlash against all the things they gave -1 to hit, I find myself keeping an eye open for things that ignore cover saves. Being able to smack Eliminators despite their 1+ cover save, for example.

Yeah, Ignores Cover is actually a genuinely good trait. It's the latter part of the Imperial Fists and Iron Warriors traits that are hot garbage.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Yeah, Ignores Cover is actually a genuinely good trait. It's the latter part of the Imperial Fists and Iron Warriors traits that are hot garbage.

Maybe if they unnerfed things like the VSG, vengeance batteries, and plasma obliterator, and improved some of the other buildings, they would show up a bit more again and the traits would have a use.

spiralingcadaver wrote:It might be nostalgia talking, but the old Index Astartes days were IMHO the best C/SM support there's been. While the game has become more sophisticated since then, the reskinned units (that they're still using), fleshing out the army concepts, and introduction of specialist/variant squads was pretty amazing. I get that there's more breadth these days (what with DG/TS getting their own books), but there are weird holes in them, and I still think that the IA days had some of the best results, regarding ambition, scope, and minor modifications to redefine an army (which is admittedly a personal preference).

I argue that having a stand-alone codex is the highest amount of support an army can get. Wether these books represent the army in a meaningful way is of course a separate discussion. That said, I would prefer to have chaos all in one book with the flexiblity to mix and match as in 3.5 codex.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Yeah, Ignores Cover is actually a genuinely good trait. It's the latter part of the Imperial Fists and Iron Warriors traits that are hot garbage.

Has this changed since the codex came out? Back then even ignore cover has been considered marginal at best.

Yes, I don't play much.

 Darkseid wrote:

spiralingcadaver wrote:It might be nostalgia talking, but the old Index Astartes days were IMHO the best C/SM support there's been. While the game has become more sophisticated since then, the reskinned units (that they're still using), fleshing out the army concepts, and introduction of specialist/variant squads was pretty amazing. I get that there's more breadth these days (what with DG/TS getting their own books), but there are weird holes in them, and I still think that the IA days had some of the best results, regarding ambition, scope, and minor modifications to redefine an army (which is admittedly a personal preference).

I argue that having a stand-alone codex is the highest amount of support an army can get. Wether these books represent the army in a meaningful way is of course a separate discussion. That said, I would prefer to have chaos all in one book with the flexiblity to mix and match as in 3.5 codex.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Yeah, Ignores Cover is actually a genuinely good trait. It's the latter part of the Imperial Fists and Iron Warriors traits that are hot garbage.

Has this changed since the codex came out? Back then even ignore cover has been considered marginal at best.

Yes, I don't play much.

It's not huge. If all the -1 to hit mechanics got changed to be cover based instead, then we'd be talking. The new vanguard primaris units have a bunch of cover rules, but they aren't all that good from the looks of things, so I doubt they'll come up much.

At the end of the day, cover is not common enough. If it were as common as in 5th ed, then these traits would be great.

 Darkseid wrote:
Has this changed since the codex came out? Back then even ignore cover has been considered marginal at best.

Yes, I don't play much.

It has, yes. Bonuses to cover are a lot more prominent these days than they were at launch across a number of factions, and the universal Prepared Positions stratagem which gives your whole army cover on the first turn means you're likely to never see a game where Ignores Cover isn't a good ability.

 Darkseid wrote:
I argue that having a stand-alone codex is the highest amount of support an army can get. Wether these books represent the army in a meaningful way is of course a separate discussion. That said, I would prefer to have chaos all in one book with the flexiblity to mix and match as in 3.5 codex.

That's fair. I guess I was gauging it more on the expansion of support, rather than the total support. For instance, Thousand Sons went from one nice character model a single static and ancient model that you needed to special order and would require a bunch of the same posed guy, to a mini-faction with a new core set in line with the current line, and quite a few special options to convert; while they now have some more variations on those and new characters, to me, going from an unplayable army to one that's representable on the table is a bigger jump than the one they've grown over the last couple editions, separating it into its own small codex, and it's certainly a bigger jump proportional to the amount of effort/rules involved.

 spiralingcadaver wrote:

 Darkseid wrote:
I argue that having a stand-alone codex is the highest amount of support an army can get. Wether these books represent the army in a meaningful way is of course a separate discussion. That said, I would prefer to have chaos all in one book with the flexiblity to mix and match as in 3.5 codex.

That's fair. I guess I was gauging it more on the expansion of support, rather than the total support. For instance, Thousand Sons went from one nice character model a single static and ancient model that you needed to special order and would require a bunch of the same posed guy, to a mini-faction with a new core set in line with the current line, and quite a few special options to convert; while they now have some more variations on those and new characters, to me, going from an unplayable army to one that's representable on the table is a bigger jump than the one they've grown over the last couple editions, separating it into its own small codex, and it's certainly a bigger jump proportional to the amount of effort/rules involved.

You're certainly not wrong, and that's a good way to look at it all in a positive light. The end of 7th was when we got the Thousand Sons and then shortly thereafter a huge boost to Death Guard. With allies rules, it's easy to have a bit of everything Chaos-related in a single army. You can have a detachment of Death Guard, one of Thousand Sons, and one of Chaos Marines, and then sprinkle in Chaos Daemons as each Codex allows.

The trouble is that there's this general feeling of 'half-assedness'. We're still waiting on Emperor's Children and World Eaters, and the Codexes that we DO have suffer from sub-par rules. The only way you see Thousand Sons and Death Guard in the top brackets is with the Daemon Primarchs and little else in the lists. This edition has also developed so that power armor models are simply not as effective as other units without a butt-ton of special rules to back them up, and even then it's easy to make them overpriced for what they actually provide (see: Death Guard and Grey Knights).

And all of that is a separation of what many Chaos players actually WANT, which is to field semi-elite forces of CHAOS **MARINES** supported by the elements that they desire. Now, of course there's the casual argument, that you can play the army that you want and generally get along just fine in a casual meta, but many players, myself included, don't live in an area where there **is** a casual meta. It's competitive or bust, and for those of us that want to enjoy the game playing aspect of the hobby, that can be very frustrating when the force that you desire to play is so far from the force that you *have* to play in order to be at the same level as an Astra Militarum player.

And what **DO** they do instead?

Make cultists 5 points over 4 while Guardsmen are still 4 points.

So, as a lover of Chaos, it's hard to be completely content with GW's half-measures. Even this model release will likely be a half-measure. Possessed, the Defiler, and Bikers, as old as they are, are likely not to get updated at all and we're still waiting for Emperor's Children and World Eaters to get their time in the light, which may not be for another year+ yet. I'm just not holding my breath.

That said, the models are gorgeous and I'm going to be buying them for the building/painting joy. I just wont expect to be able to make an army and be able to do well in my town.

Still crossing my fingers for a change to the Word Bearers trait, but I don't expect to luck out this time.

So far it's looking like the model waves are an incredible success and the codex is half-arsed at best.

 Marshal Loss wrote:
So far it's looking like the model waves are an incredible success and the codex is half-arsed at best.

Pretty much the same story we've had for Chaos since 4th Ed.