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 Platuan4th wrote:

 Albino Squirrel wrote:
In general I think the game would be a lot better with much reduced lethality. You'd get to have your nicely painted miniatures on the table longer. Everything wouldn't be about getting that alpha strike bomb off and just removing the opponent's best units before they get to do anything. And presumably the focus would shift more to completing objective and suppression or interfering with an opponents objectives, making it more tactically interesting.

So you want the game to last LONGER than it already does?

The problem with the length of the game revolves around Auras, re-rolls and modifiers to the dice (and True LOS but that plague is permanent it seems). These things rarely existed in any other edition but Age of Sigmar ushered in this non-sense.

 Kirasu wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Albino Squirrel wrote:
In general I think the game would be a lot better with much reduced lethality. You'd get to have your nicely painted miniatures on the table longer. Everything wouldn't be about getting that alpha strike bomb off and just removing the opponent's best units before they get to do anything. And presumably the focus would shift more to completing objective and suppression or interfering with an opponents objectives, making it more tactically interesting.

So you want the game to last LONGER than it already does?

The problem with the length of the game revolves around Auras, re-rolls and modifiers to the dice (and True LOS but that plague is permanent it seems). These things rarely existed in any other edition but Age of Sigmar ushered in this non-sense.

40K's always been a 2 hour plus game, aura's or no. Even before 8th, larger armies took longer to play, meaning less of the actual 6 turns played if you were worrying about time. Turning down the lethality means there's no reduction in unit count over the span of the game, keeping turn times longer for more of the game.

 Latro_ wrote:
WB UP
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/03/21/21st-mar-heretic-astartes-focus-the-word-bearersgw-homepage-post-1/

OMFG they actually NERFED the dark apostle a bit you need a 3+ to get his re-rolls ahah

yeah but he has a number of other buffs he can apply, they've BASICLY given chaos a version of the IG's order system via the dark apostle. and presumably dark disiples will give a re-roll on that roll (or reduce it to a 2) so it's not too bad.

Over all, the word bearers chapter tactic still sucks but it looks like in terms of actual units, and that sort of thing, word bearers at least can be VERY fluffy

BrianDavion wrote:

 Latro_ wrote:
WB UP
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/03/21/21st-mar-heretic-astartes-focus-the-word-bearersgw-homepage-post-1/

OMFG they actually NERFED the dark apostle a bit you need a 3+ to get his re-rolls ahah

yeah but he has a number of other buffs he can apply, they've BASICLY given chaos a version of the IG's order system via the dark apostle. and presumably dark disiples will give a re-roll on that roll (or reduce it to a 2) so it's not too bad.

Over all, the word bearers chapter tactic still sucks but it looks like in terms of actual units, and that sort of thing, word bearers at least can be VERY fluffy

Version of the IG order system? This new ability requires a die roll. It's just a copy paste from Age of Sigmar prayers. Come on, it's a straight nerf for no reason.

ON FB Warhammer community said this prayer does not replace their inbuilt rule.

they are actually different inbuilt is re-roll failed this is re-roll hits...

why its the default prayer and so similar to their inbuilt ability is just confusing and meh

 Latro_ wrote:
ON FB Warhammer community said this prayer does not replace their inbuilt rule.

they are actually different inbuilt is re-roll failed this is re-roll hits...

why its the default prayer and so similar to their inbuilt ability is just confusing and meh

Well if that's the case, I guess it's not a strict nerf at least even if its very bizarre. Sounds like GW "designers" are confused by their own re-roll before modifiers rule and want new abilities to ignore it :p

If the disciples add plus 1, use a cp for a 2+ re-rollable on prayers. Seems fluffy and fun to have him giving out prayers to cultists blocks. Really depends on what the other prayers are. Deamonkin rule sounds interesting too for WB. This is good news!

 Kirasu wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Latro_ wrote:
WB UP
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/03/21/21st-mar-heretic-astartes-focus-the-word-bearersgw-homepage-post-1/

OMFG they actually NERFED the dark apostle a bit you need a 3+ to get his re-rolls ahah

yeah but he has a number of other buffs he can apply, they've BASICLY given chaos a version of the IG's order system via the dark apostle. and presumably dark disiples will give a re-roll on that roll (or reduce it to a 2) so it's not too bad.

Over all, the word bearers chapter tactic still sucks but it looks like in terms of actual units, and that sort of thing, word bearers at least can be VERY fluffy

Version of the IG order system? That requires a die roll. It's just a copy paste from Age of Sigmar prayers. Come on, it's a straight nerf for no reason.

ohh right I forgot IG noi longer had to roll for orders anymore. back before 8th they used to have to roll.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tpiddy wrote:
If the disciples add plus 1, use a cp for a 2+ re-rollable on prayers. Seems fluffy and fun to have him giving out prayers to cultists blocks. Really depends on what the other prayers are. Deamonkin rule sounds interesting too for WB. This is good news!

I agree. dark disiples are definatly gonna be something that might actually be worth tossing in an army and I hope we see something like this for chaplains when marines inevitably get their 2.0 codex

 Kirasu wrote:

 Latro_ wrote:
ON FB Warhammer community said this prayer does not replace their inbuilt rule.

they are actually different inbuilt is re-roll failed this is re-roll hits...

why its the default prayer and so similar to their inbuilt ability is just confusing and meh

Well if that's the case, I guess it's not a strict nerf at least even if its very bizarre. Sounds like GW "designers" are confused by their own re-roll before modifiers rule and want new abilities to ignore it :p

"Not a strict nerf"? It's an outright buff, lol. If you use Dark Zealotry than the DA's normal aura is improved to a Cawl-style aura.

Granted, penalties to hit aren't very plentiful in melee so I feel like I'd rather have a second one of the unknown prayers than Dark Zealotry.

The guy with insense burner has such a generic face I can't stop laughing. He looks most concerned with not catching himself on fire.

"Steve, Steve from accounting is that you?"

"Hey Tim!"

"What are you doing!?"

"The water heater broke again so I hit up Craigslist for some moonlighting gigs."

Lol

BrianDavion wrote:


I agree. dark disiples are definatly gonna be something that might actually be worth tossing in an army and I hope we see something like this for chaplains when marines inevitably get their 2.0 codex

I hope not. Expendable, accompanying cultists are a chaos thing. Loyalist Chaplains don't generally have prayer slaves following them around, with one notable exception.

It would be a weird Fluff change, and a nonsensical muddying of faction identity.

So, to me i think this shows the future of Marine Chaplains as well. Can't see how they can do one but not the other.

As for the detachment, it's actually potentially worth using, especially if you want to add in a choppy Possessed detachment.

Word Bearers will however, remain fluff battles only though due to their trait.

Kdash wrote:
So, to me i think this shows the future of Marine Chaplains as well. Can't see how they can do one but not the other.

You can't? I can see it clear as day. It would be exactly like making cultists 5 points and leaving guardsmen at 4. It would be exactly like reducing points in terminators in CA but reducing 5 points MORE in the loyalist side. It would be exactly like giving imperials 2 point storm shields and making scarab occult terminators suffer the movement penalty of the cataphractii armor while gaining the invul save of the tartaros armor.

 Latro_ wrote:
ON FB Warhammer community said this prayer does not replace their inbuilt rule.

they are actually different inbuilt is re-roll failed this is re-roll hits...

why its the default prayer and so similar to their inbuilt ability is just confusing and meh

Could you link to the Facebook post where they said this? I've scanned through their replies myself and can't find it.

It's the IF siegebreaker detachment's thing, but cut loose from a subsection and applied to CC. I really like it, as someone who goes fishing for MWs all the time with their IF Centurions. You won't have the same weight of dice here, however, and that's what makes it so powerful for IFs.

cant believe fools are already saying the Dark Apostle got nerfed.. NEWSFLASH youve seen 2 of 6 prayers (plus one for each god) -they go off on a super eazy 2+ btw (bring the disciples)
dakka crowd is a bunch of nerdy dramaqueens, change my mind.

With that many prayers to choose from at least one of them is bound to be defensive, right? Obviously we have to wait and see but I´m hopeful this will end up being a big buff to the Apostle.

So can someone start listing the units or abilities that create penalties to hit in melee?

 Phobosftw wrote:
cant believe fools are already saying the Dark Apostle got nerfed.. NEWSFLASH youve seen 2 of 6 prayer (plus one for each god) -they go off on an eazy 2+ btw (bring the disciples)
dakka crowd is a bunch of nerdy dramaqueens, change my mind.

Well, technically it is a slight nerf to their re-roll aura ability as it can now fail The other auras are probably ranging from good to super bad, but, it also means you sacrifice the re-rolls if you opt to use another pray.

Man if they come out with new possessed models im going to buy an entire detachment. Goes nice with the shadowspear stuff.
Also hoping for a multi part plastic kit for the oblits. Im going to be broke.

 Phobosftw wrote:
cant believe fools are already saying the Dark Apostle got nerfed.. NEWSFLASH youve seen 2 of 6 prayer (plus one for each god) -they go off on an eazy 2+ btw (bring the disciples)
dakka crowd is a bunch of nerdy dramaqueens, change my mind.

You're justifying people's opinions based on your own blind Faith? There are countless examples of utterly awful rules being released (look at night Lords). Requiring a unit that can be shot off the board doesn't make a previously static ability any better. Let's have some understanding of how 40k actually plays.

I don't believe dark apostles kept their static ability. You trying to say that they now have 2 abilities called dark zealotry that do something different? That's not how GW operates.

I stand corrected. The Dark apostle isn't a bad model. I don't mind the flaming book, but I wish it wasn't bleeding. Painting it with blood for the blood god might look better.

Also, what is that one disciple carrying on his back? Its not a book. But I can't figure out.

Also also, will they come separately? Be a nice thing to do for people that have already bought the older apostle

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 Latro_ wrote:
ON FB Warhammer community said this prayer does not replace their inbuilt rule.

they are actually different inbuilt is re-roll failed this is re-roll hits...

why its the default prayer and so similar to their inbuilt ability is just confusing and meh

Could you link to the Facebook post where they said this? I've scanned through their replies myself and can't find it.

OMG they deleted the reply! haha so i bet it DOES replace it

So far what I am most agitated about is all of these stratagems and specialist detachments are just going to encourage more CP farming (like from the "Heretical 17") when GW should be encouraging less.

I really really hope the FAQ reigns it in, that's my last hope that GW really doesn't intend for the game to be about CP batteries to power stratagems and specialist detachments. Because so far everything they've done, while it looks like it's meant to spend CP so you have less during the game, has just encouraged MORE CP farming.

So how much do you think those Dark Disciples will cost?
Because I highly doubt they would be free..

 Kirasu wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Albino Squirrel wrote:
In general I think the game would be a lot better with much reduced lethality. You'd get to have your nicely painted miniatures on the table longer. Everything wouldn't be about getting that alpha strike bomb off and just removing the opponent's best units before they get to do anything. And presumably the focus would shift more to completing objective and suppression or interfering with an opponents objectives, making it more tactically interesting.

So you want the game to last LONGER than it already does?

The problem with the length of the game revolves around Auras, re-rolls and modifiers to the dice (and True LOS but that plague is permanent it seems). These things rarely existed in any other edition but Age of Sigmar ushered in this non-sense.

Just to add to what you're saying... Why does GW like re-rolls? - Drama and reward; it draws out the experiential feedback that comes from anticipation of the consequences. Gives a player hope. But it draws out the game.

Re-rolls make individual dice rolls less consequential and draw out the order of play by inserting additional dice rolls outside the main sequence of rolls; just as random numbers of attacks and random weapon stats disrupt a continuous order of play. Its something that should be implemented in a narrower and more purposeful way. It'd probably end up with just as many problems, but statistically speaking a re-roll has the equivalent impact as some modifier, how much less dice rolling could there be with more modifiers and no re-rolls? -If an army has BS 5+ but always gets re-rolls, really it has as a matter of consequence a BS more like 4+... or mechanistically in place of re-rolls you could roll twice as many dice and cap the max number of successes at half that greater number of dice.

So the apostle got even worse.
a IG commander can match and choose and order any squad,
ok this is an aura but on 3+ for an ability we had before?

I mean when was the last time you saw someone not completly fluffy fielding an apostle.

 aka_mythos wrote:

 Kirasu wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Albino Squirrel wrote:
In general I think the game would be a lot better with much reduced lethality. You'd get to have your nicely painted miniatures on the table longer. Everything wouldn't be about getting that alpha strike bomb off and just removing the opponent's best units before they get to do anything. And presumably the focus would shift more to completing objective and suppression or interfering with an opponents objectives, making it more tactically interesting.

So you want the game to last LONGER than it already does?

The problem with the length of the game revolves around Auras, re-rolls and modifiers to the dice (and True LOS but that plague is permanent it seems). These things rarely existed in any other edition but Age of Sigmar ushered in this non-sense.

Just to add to what you're saying... Why does GW like re-rolls? - Drama and reward; it draws out the experiential feedback that comes from anticipation of the consequences. Gives a player hope. But it draws out the game.

Re-rolls make individual dice rolls less consequential and draw out the order of play by inserting additional dice rolls outside the main sequence of rolls; just as random numbers of attacks and random weapon stats disrupt a continuous order of play. Its something that should be implemented in a narrower and more purposeful way. It'd probably end up with just as many problems, but statistically speaking a re-roll has the equivalent impact as some modifier, how much less dice rolling could there be with more modifiers and no re-rolls? -If an army has BS 5+ but always gets re-rolls, really it has as a matter of consequence a BS more like 4+... or mechanistically in place of re-rolls you could roll twice as many dice and cap the max number of successes at half that greater number of dice.

I mean, re-rolls also make rolls more reliable since you have more chances to get a good result. d6 is, naturally, swingier than 2d6 take highest. You don't really want to flood the game with modifiers because there's a hard cap on how good a positive modifier can be; if you think Guardsmen are better than Marines now, just imagine if both units were hitting on a 2+ because of stacking modifiers.

Not Online!!! wrote:
So the apostle got even worse.
a IG commander can match and choose and order any squad,
ok this is an aura but on 3+ for an ability we had before?

I mean when was the last time you saw someone not completly fluffy fielding an apostle.

Remember, he has 5 other prayers we haven't seen yet.

Kdash wrote:
So, to me i think this shows the future of Marine Chaplains as well. Can't see how they can do one but not the other.

As for the detachment, it's actually potentially worth using, especially if you want to add in a choppy Possessed detachment.

Word Bearers will however, remain fluff battles only though due to their trait.

Interrogator Chaplains don't sing....only their victims do when the blades cut deep