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2019/03/24 08:08:19
Subject: Re:Shadow Spear / New Chaos Space Marines
Once you start bringing in gravity of other planets, and probably the gravity generated by the mass of itself, a smaller ship that can blow a hole in it somewhere could compromise it’s super structure so much it could potentially start collapsing on itself. Especially if that hole is in the middle of the ship.
The most awful thing about it is, I bet it was influenced by the last Jedi....
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/03/24 08:09:21
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Could you continue the discussion about the events somewhere else please? I come here for the news on minis and don't want to be spoilered by someone not using spoiler tags. Even replies on the topic moaning about new awfull lore is too much.
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"The language of modern British politics is meant to sound benign. But words do not mean what they seem to mean. 'Reform' actually means 'cut' or 'end'. 'Flexibility' really means 'exploit'. 'Prudence' really means 'don't invest'. And 'efficient'? That means whatever you want it to mean, usually 'cut'. All really mean 'keep wages low for the masses, taxes low for the rich, profits high for the corporations, and accept the decline in public services and amenities this will cause'." - Robin McAlpine from Common Weal
Are the renagade traits in the codex?
Are the warlord traits/relics of the renagades in the codex?
Or is it just vigilus 2?
Just Vigilus 2. All the new models, detachments, and traits are in Vigilus not the new chaos marine dex. Unless you are starting the army fresh there is no reason to get the updated dex but every reason to get Vigilus 2.
Thanks buddha, im just worried because the last campain book i got (damacles) was invalidated a few months later along with traitor legions.
Maybe I'm grasping at straws here, but theres still one demon engine pic unsolved isn't there? And perhaps there is some deliberate deceit going on with the significance of the alpha legion being last showcased. Have all the pages of vigilus been seen for sure? It seems only peronalities got advance copies and could be under orders to skip a page of two for their pre recorded reviews that popped up today. I don't think there is any truth to this, but hey, what would I know, I'm just alpharius..
Bit of a confirmation of sorts the oblits pt cost is a misprint. The new data slate is 1-3 but in the back of the book where it has the old pts cost it also has the old unit size of just 3. So pretty much solidifies they forgot to change it to the higher cost.
Latro_ wrote: Bit of a confirmation of sorts the oblits pt cost is a misprint. The new data slate is 1-3 but in the back of the book where it has the old pts cost it also has the old unit size of just 3. So pretty much solidifies they forgot to change it to the higher cost.
Well, that puts the obliterators back into trash tier again
Latro_ wrote: Bit of a confirmation of sorts the oblits pt cost is a misprint. The new data slate is 1-3 but in the back of the book where it has the old pts cost it also has the old unit size of just 3. So pretty much solidifies they forgot to change it to the higher cost.
Well, that puts the obliterators back into trash tier again
could you imagine the ammount of salt that would've been spilled by that?
Also it would make no sense since GW wants to sell us on havocs.
Ultimately i think they went the wrong way with nerfing the oblits but he what do i know.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
2019/03/24 09:39:42
Subject: Re:Shadow Spear / New Chaos Space Marines
also consider, even if it was an eldar cruiser, you're talking about a 5 kilometer slab of wraith bone, accelerated to a fairly high speed that directly hits the hull of the ship. this will deal CONSIDERABLE damage. and depending what is hurt could very well knock the ship out of the fight, ESPECIALLY if Abaddon is being careful not to let his flagship be destroyed
Hey put enough speed and no need to be km long to do it. For all we know imperium has forgotten e=mc2 and were congratulating themselves on clever use of deathstrike when it was near lightspeed eldar ship that did it
Latro_ wrote: Bit of a confirmation of sorts the oblits pt cost is a misprint. The new data slate is 1-3 but in the back of the book where it has the old pts cost it also has the old unit size of just 3. So pretty much solidifies they forgot to change it to the higher cost.
Well, that puts the obliterators back into trash tier again
could you imagine the ammount of salt that would've been spilled by that?
Also it would make no sense since GW wants to sell us on havocs.
Ultimately i think they went the wrong way with nerfing the oblits but he what do i know.
But... they also want to sell those new obliterators right? 115 pts just.. makes no sense and the people coming up with that, have no grasp of anything in the game. Then again, I kind of lost hope with GW long ago when it comes to balancing.
2019/03/24 09:46:47
Subject: Re:Shadow Spear / New Chaos Space Marines
also consider, even if it was an eldar cruiser, you're talking about a 5 kilometer slab of wraith bone, accelerated to a fairly high speed that directly hits the hull of the ship. this will deal CONSIDERABLE damage. and depending what is hurt could very well knock the ship out of the fight, ESPECIALLY if Abaddon is being careful not to let his flagship be destroyed
Hey put enough speed and no need to be km long to do it. For all we know imperium has forgotten e=mc2 and were congratulating themselves on clever use of deathstrike when it was near lightspeed eldar ship that did it
Why is everyone talking down Oblits at their right price? The stacking available to them with the apostle is real. AL Slaaneshi Oblits are going to find it very easy to get 1+/4++/5+++, -2 to hit. That's about as good as a defensive profile can get.
Automatically Appended Next Post: 65pts would have been all kinds of dumb, frankly.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/03/24 09:54:51
"At the start of each battle round".
So even if your opponent goes first, your Dark Apostle can pray, making sure that you get (if you chose it) that 5++ aura or -1 to hit ability on a crucial unit, in your opponents turn.
As someone who often finds themselves going last, this is amazing, as psychic buffs does nothing if your opponent kills whatever you wanted to buff before you could activate them.
Latro_ wrote: Bit of a confirmation of sorts the oblits pt cost is a misprint. The new data slate is 1-3 but in the back of the book where it has the old pts cost it also has the old unit size of just 3. So pretty much solidifies they forgot to change it to the higher cost.
Well, that puts the obliterators back into trash tier again
could you imagine the ammount of salt that would've been spilled by that?
Also it would make no sense since GW wants to sell us on havocs.
Ultimately i think they went the wrong way with nerfing the oblits but he what do i know.
But... they also want to sell those new obliterators right? 115 pts just.. makes no sense and the people coming up with that, have no grasp of anything in the game. Then again, I kind of lost hope with GW long ago when it comes to balancing.
Yeah but most poeple HAVE obliterators, because they were actually decent.
Havocs on the other hand, were NEVER particualry interesting good or liked and therefore A LOT LESS are owned by players.
Ergo where is the bigger market?
Spoiler:
The Havocs, and just for good measure, the Marines cost 6$ less then a Forgefiend so you can imagine the price for a propper havoc unit, and since we also have not seen how many of each gun are in there they can make a decent income from multiple sales
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
People would still get those havocs. Its a slightly different niche really compared to Oblits. The latest hotness for those Havocs are that tasty Reaper Chain Cannon. That gun is mainly a anti horde gun. Clears out chaff really well. Oblits are for shooting at heavy duty stuff. Knights, power armour, monsters, etc etc. You could go lascannon havocs, but then what are you going to use to clear hordes? The way I see it, that reaper chain cannon havocs are too valuable to use other than as they are. Want to go heavy duty, that's what stuff like Oblits and other heavy support are for. (Or for chaos CSM, just going right up in the face and smashing them in works too). So, the two fill different niches. If you are using Oblits to clear chaff, you are doing something wrong. And while you could stack enough strategems and prayers to make a reaper chain cannon squad hurt even a Knight, they don't need any support at all to kill chaff fine.
Eldenfirefly wrote: People would still get those havocs. Its a slightly different niche really compared to Oblits. The latest hotness for those Havocs are that tasty Reaper Chain Cannon. That gun is mainly a anti horde gun. Clears out chaff really well. Oblits are for shooting at heavy duty stuff. Knights, power armour, monsters, etc etc. You could go lascannon havocs, but then what are you going to use to clear hordes? The way I see it, that reaper chain cannon havocs are too valuable to use other than as they are. Want to go heavy duty, that's what stuff like Oblits and other heavy support are for. (Or for chaos CSM, just going right up in the face and smashing them in works too). So, the two fill different niches. If you are using Oblits to clear chaff, you are doing something wrong. And while you could stack enough strategems and prayers to make a reaper chain cannon squad hurt even a Knight, they don't need any support at all to kill chaff fine.
And why can't havocs do both? VotLW still works on them on legion havocs, leading to 4+ wounds on nearly anything with the Rotor cannon.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Because he's talking about stacking buffs on one unit until it's god-tier, and you choose the unit with the greatest damage output and the best defensive profile - that's Oblits over Havocs.
But you don't have to play that way. I'm sure 3x havocs will be really competitive.
Thanatos73 wrote: I think people get hung up on the power of the Vengeful Spirit and Gloriana class ships in general. These were the Legion flagships, designed to be among the most powerful warships humanity had ever built. But they were not invincible. They were more powerful than any other ship one on one, and they were flagships that were commanded by the best strategic minds in the Imperial Navy, frequently by Primarchs too. They were surrounded by dozens of other ships too.
But they were far from invincible. The Dark Angels Gloriana was on a skeleton crew and battered to near space unworthiness by the end of the Heresy. She was almost lost to one Death Guard battleship. And if I remember that part right, it was a ramming attack too!
By 40k most of the Glorianas were lost and the Vengeful Spirit has been through 10,000 years of battle and Warp mutations. She’s described by GW as having sections open to space and unusable. She’s a shadow of her former glory by 40k and is still one of the most powerful ships in existence.
There is a scale drawing of a Gloriana class alongside a "standard" battle barge in FW Horus Heresy Book 3. The Gloriana is about 2x as long in length. However as demonstrated by an Emperor battleship vs. a Lunar cruiser comparison, doubling the length only resulted in about 50% extra Damage capacity, and the Planet Killer vs. the Emperor class only yielded an extra 2 Damage points though we do not know for certain the length of the Planet Killer. I highly doubt the Damage capacity of the Gloriana exceeding the 14 of the Planet Killer.
Even IF for purely the sake of argument, we generously gave a Gloriana 50% more than an Emperor, i.e. a total of 18, a single Bulkhead Collapse inflicting 6 extra Damage means 7 Damage inflicted. That is still over 7/18, or over 1/3 of the total Damage capacity in a single blow. It is easy to see why any commander would withdraw their flagship in such a situation, especially if it might have already taken damage earlier in the battle.
Spoiler:
Gloriana-class battleships are not the most powerful ships built by the Imperium. That honour goes to the Abyss-class, of which only three were built at the onset of the Horus Heresy.
We have BFG rules for a surviving Abyss-class in 40k- the Rapturous Rex. IIRC, it had 24hp, definitely at least 20. That is the upper limit for a Gloriana-class, but the actual value would likely be lower. I think 16-18hp would be very plausible for a Gloriana based on this. Only unique survivors of the Dark Age would be more powerful, like the Phalanx.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/03/24 12:19:10
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I want a relaunch of the Legion of the Damned. NOW!
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2019/03/24 13:10:40
Subject: Re:Shadow Spear / New Chaos Space Marines
Kirasu wrote: In what way does BFG rules have anything to do with this? These games rarely reflect the fluff, however, a book CAN reflect the fluff accurately but GW is writing saturday morning cartoons lately. You don't seem like you know what a Gloriana class ship is either with the statement of "It might have".. It's orders of magnitudes more powerful and durable than any other ship ever constructed (Thats why only less than 2 dozen were ever constructed). One eldar ship isn't going to blow "huge holes" in it.. Again, deathstrike missiles are battlefield weapons and are a complete and utter joke in a void war.
But the fluff has been a disaster since the Ward Era anyway, unless you love G.I Joe style writing.
I like how 95% of the time the only argument of people who don't like additions to the lore is "how dare they touch my headcanon (that had little in common with canon in the first place), the complete !".
First, even ignoring the fact BFG completely trumps whatever you imagine 40K space combat to be, if you had any point to stand on about ramming tactics efficiency, the ramming prows wouldn't feature extremely prominently on literally every single Imperial, Chaos, Eldar, Ork, Dark Eldar (add dozen more races) ship. Oh, wait, they do, so you're completely wrong to begin with.
Second, it seems you have no idea what Gloriana is. Before HH novels retconned them, Glorianas were simple battle barges, end of story. The ships that were later named Glorianas feature in dozens of books and short stories, and not a single one of these paints them as anything exceptional. Hell, half of HH stories don't either, duel of Infidus Imperator (bog standard battle barge) vs Macragge's Honour somehow wasn't one-sided engagement and Word Bearers fully expected to be able to win. I wonder why if Glorianas are so l33t? In battle of Phall, the Iron Blood was boarded and would be destroyed if IF didn't suddenly withdraw which again doesn't really jive with your headcanon, does it? You have several other Glorianas like Swordstorm and Amphion (which was 'just' a navy battleship, again weird status for supposed h4x ship, not to mention a blow for their supposed rarity) destroyed in normal battles, others like Chronicle of Ashes captured in regular battles, etc, etc.
Ironically, what is perfect example of "G.I Joe style writing" is trumpeting up of Glorianas as these invincible mega-hiper battleships (as opposed to 'just' a heavy battle barge with flagship modifications) by a handful of BL writers (who then ass-pulled even more giga-duper class out of thin air, the Furious Abyss trio) and your inability to see it is kind of funny. Maybe look in the mirror before accusing someone first?
As for deathstrikes being 'battlefield' weapons, this is "technically" right but it completely ignores the fact votex warheads ignore armour and if you drill a few dozen holes through the length of the ship it will completely cease to be combat-worthy, no matter what technical nitpicking you will use. If you stab someone with a butter knife, whining it's not meant for that won't make the wound disappear, will it?
2019/03/24 13:27:20
Subject: Re:Shadow Spear / New Chaos Space Marines
endlesswaltz123 wrote: Once you start bringing in gravity of other planets, and probably the gravity generated by the mass of itself, a smaller ship that can blow a hole in it somewhere could compromise it’s super structure so much it could potentially start collapsing on itself. Especially if that hole is in the middle of the ship.
The most awful thing about it is, I bet it was influenced by the last Jedi....
Most likely it was influenced by the centuries of ramships in actual naval engagements or BFG where ramming ships was a valid, legitimate tactic for at least 3 of the factions.
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Sad, but not unexpected. I think we've already leaked/seen all the new models the CSM are getting.
Only question is, where's that sorcerer? Maybe a blackstone fortress expansion set?
On a side note, they mistake the Crimson Slaughter on bikes for word bearers. They've got the word bearers symbol on the pic, but that's not them
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/03/24 15:24:48
5500 pts 
6500 pts 
7000 pts 
9000 pts 
13.000 pts 
!". 
